grimleal The Grimleal Religion

[Arthur97]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The gameplay mechanics of Falchion is different for each game. Chrom's Falchion had a might of 5 in Awakening, but in the Fates DLC, it had 6. Not to mention that every Einherjar version of Marth can wield every form of Falchion. Not to mention that now Marth's Falchion in the games are all being referred to as Exalted Falchion, which Chrom only wielded when he performed the Awakening.

Well for one thing, Tiki never met Naga face to face, not even once. No supports in New Mystery either. And Tiki cannot be with you at the time of recruiting Nagi. So Tiki referring to Naga as mother is not that out of place really. Naga was not really that much of a parent to her anyways. 

Nagi is heavily implied to be Naga due to the titles that she gets, in both Japanese and English. 

• "Divine Dragon King's Incarnation" (Holy Avatar in the English)
• "Revived Divine Dragon King" ("Deity Reborn" in the English version)

Medeus even speaks to Nagi at meeting her in Shadow Dragon, showing familiarity, talking about how she is also a revived dragon. This heavily implies that Nagi is in fact Naga.

Also, the case of gender is that humans are the ones that mentions Naga as male which could easily have been misinterpreted, since they also depicted Naga wielding the Shield of Seals that wasn't forged until after the Earth Dragons were defeated.  The other dragons have used gender neutral terms when talking about Naga, and "King" is also gender neutral in Japan. After all, we know for sure that when Naga appeared as a human in Jugdral, it was as female. And now in the English series at least, Naga seems to have been canonized as female that banished Duma for Echoes. 

I am not denying the case of Naga being a title inherited, but it seems like Naga's power running through the land itself implies that Naga's quintessence is tied to her will, and even when she is physically killed, she doesn't truly die. I mean, despite being "killed" by Grima in Future Past, her spirit for some reason was able to remain and summoned Chrom and the others. And then Tiki even said that Naga's power in Mount Prism simply transferred from there to Ylisstol due to Mount Prism now being defiled, and Tiki's corpse being in Ylisstol.

Tiki assuming the role of Naga seems to be more her inheriting the power that left behind before Naga could revive herself, which would have taken too long, and by then, Grima would destroy the world, and Naga would have permanently died.

That's why I compared it to silver swords and not the actual Mt since that varies. 

I just don't buy that Naga can revive herself. In reality she is a manakete which means she could die, and stay dead. Unless she pulls a Superman and just goes into a deep sleep like Madeus, but even he could be killed eventually (if Chrom just got a hankering to kill her, he probably could). That may be how Nagi came to be. She may have changed her name to avoid giving her identity away after Marth found her in her hibernating state. That or she suffered some temporary memory degradation. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

That's why I compared it to silver swords and not the actual Mt since that varies. 

I just don't buy that Naga can revive herself. In reality she is a manakete which means she could die, and stay dead. Unless she pulls a Superman and just goes into a deep sleep like Madeus, but even he could be killed eventually (if Chrom just got a hankering to kill her, he probably could). That may be how Nagi came to be. She may have changed her name to avoid giving her identity away after Marth found her in her hibernating state. That or she suffered some temporary memory degradation. 

The only reason that its only as strong as a Silver Sword in the games is for gameplay balance, since by the time you get it, you will be fighting a bunch of dragons, so it would be incredibly useful, especially against other Earth Dragons. 

Normally, that would be the case. But the issue is that how many Divine Dragons actually CAN take Naga's place? Most Divine Dragons are extinct in fact. Gotoh and Xane can't be the case. Medeus is an Earth Dragon and thus has abnormally large lifespan, hence why in the dragon war, Naga and the other Divine Dragons couldn't kill the Earth Dragons, merely put them to sleep and try to ensure that sleep stays eternal. 

That's why I referred to quintessence in a different thread I made back earlier, where Naga, even after dying, her will allowed to her remain with the world. Similar to the lifestream in FFVII, Naga's quintessence essentially mixed with the land itself, and thus her will allows her to create avatars like Nagi that allows her to remain in the world. After all, Nagi CAN'T have been born normally at all. Tiki was the final Manakete born before Nowi, but Nagi clearly looks older than her, which shouldn't be possible. Plus, Xane and Gotoh were present in Naga's time, so they would be sure if Naga was dead or not. Naga creating an avatar to serve as her vessel would mean that she can revive herself, but it takes an extremely long time for her powers to be restored to full, since Nagi at the time is not as strong as Medeus was. 

[Arthur97]

53 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The only reason that its only as strong as a Silver Sword in the games is for gameplay balance, since by the time you get it, you will be fighting a bunch of dragons, so it would be incredibly useful, especially against other Earth Dragons. 

Normally, that would be the case. But the issue is that how many Divine Dragons actually CAN take Naga's place? Most Divine Dragons are extinct in fact. Gotoh and Xane can't be the case. Medeus is an Earth Dragon and thus has abnormally large lifespan, hence why in the dragon war, Naga and the other Divine Dragons couldn't kill the Earth Dragons, merely put them to sleep and try to ensure that sleep stays eternal. 

That's why I referred to quintessence in a different thread I made back earlier, where Naga, even after dying, her will allowed to her remain with the world. Similar to the lifestream in FFVII, Naga's quintessence essentially mixed with the land itself, and thus her will allows her to create avatars like Nagi that allows her to remain in the world. After all, Nagi CAN'T have been born normally at all. Tiki was the final Manakete born before Nowi, but Nagi clearly looks older than her, which shouldn't be possible. Plus, Xane and Gotoh were present in Naga's time, so they would be sure if Naga was dead or not. Naga creating an avatar to serve as her vessel would mean that she can revive herself, but it takes an extremely long time for her powers to be restored to full, since Nagi at the time is not as strong as Medeus was. 

As for who could, there are manaketes we don't know about most likely. Nowi didn't just appear (as for her tribe, she bears a striking resemblance to Tiki in dragon form, so it's not a stretch to say she is a divine dragon).

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

As for who could, there are manaketes we don't know about most likely. Nowi didn't just appear (as for her tribe, she bears a striking resemblance to Tiki in dragon form, so it's not a stretch to say she is a divine dragon).

It seems like Nowi could be a Divine Dragon, but there are several contradictions to that. In some supports, she says she breathes fire. In the comic, she breathed ice. Divine Dragons don't actually breathe those, but rather a mist that contains divine light in them. 

But see, Nowi bears no resemblance to Tiki herself, while Nagi looks alarmingly like her. This would mean that Nagi and Tiki shares some kind of connection. 

[Arthur97]

45 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It seems like Nowi could be a Divine Dragon, but there are several contradictions to that. In some supports, she says she breathes fire. In the comic, she breathed ice. Divine Dragons don't actually breathe those, but rather a mist that contains divine light in them. 

But see, Nowi bears no resemblance to Tiki herself, while Nagi looks alarmingly like her. This would mean that Nagi and Tiki shares some kind of connection. 

Really, because Tiki and Nowi spit the same stuff. Besides, comics are generally viewed as non-canon. Besides, Young Tiki could breath fire with the right stone.

She doesn't have to. Being in the same tribe doesn't mean that you have to look alike.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Really, because Tiki and Nowi spit the same stuff. Besides, comics are generally viewed as non-canon. Besides, Young Tiki could breath fire with the right stone.

She doesn't have to. Being in the same tribe doesn't mean that you have to look alike.

Yeah, but they have the same dragon model, and TIki's isn't even the same as her model from the Archanea series. Young Tiki never breathed fire, but rather it was a gameplay mechanic where Tiki can turn into the respective dragon with the right stone. But we know that storywise, Tiki can only turn into a a dragon using her own stone, because that dragonstone is her dragon power.

I realized that you meant dragon form, not actual appearance. My bad. 

[Arthur97]

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, but they have the same dragon model, and TIki's isn't even the same as her model from the Archanea series. Young Tiki never breathed fire, but rather it was a gameplay mechanic where Tiki can turn into the respective dragon with the right stone. But we know that storywise, Tiki can only turn into a a dragon using her own stone, because that dragonstone is her dragon power.

I realized that you meant dragon form, not actual appearance. My bad. 

Gameplay mechanic or not, you still can't rule out that it's very possible Nowi is from the same tribe. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Arthur97 said:

Gameplay mechanic or not, you still can't rule out that it's very possible Nowi is from the same tribe. 

Not ruling it out, just saying that we're lacking confirmation is all. 

For all we know, Nowi might actually be Half Divine Dragon and Half another Dragon Tribe. I don't recall there being any laws against other dragon tribes mating.

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not ruling it out, just saying that we're lacking confirmation is all. 

For all we know, Nowi might actually be Half Divine Dragon and Half another Dragon Tribe. I don't recall there being any laws against other dragon tribes mating.

Confirmation isn't really necessary to make the point that there could be other divine dragons around.

[omegaxis1]

25 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Confirmation isn't really necessary to make the point that there could be other divine dragons around.

It sort of is. Before we always had confirmation on a Dragon's tribe. Nowi is the only manakete that never got any such confirmation. Also, you said that the comics are generally non-canon, that isn't actually that much true though. It depicted what Gemstone was missing, being the Sable Gemstone, and Future Past confirmed that Lucina had one gemstone missing, and Drama CDs showed that Inigo's group was the one that missed one of the gemstones, and the gemstones that he carried were Argent and Sable. 

And Lucina picking out bad accessories instead of the mask that Severa chose, which also was in both comic and CD. And the comic also had Gaius' case of how he tried to protect Maribelle. So the comic isn't completely inaccurate. 

[LucarioGamer812]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well for one thing, Tiki never met Naga face to face, not even once. No supports in New Mystery either. And Tiki cannot be with you at the time of recruiting Nagi. So Tiki referring to Naga as mother is not that out of place really. Naga was not really that much of a parent to her anyways. 

You forget you can get everyone in new mystery. Tiki and Nagi can co-exist.

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Are you really sure about this? Gharnef hid in Thabes for his final confrontation in Shadow Dragon and had already placed Elice there some time ago, possibly years. You'd think the Dark Pontifex would be able to sniff out any potential enemies or allies, including Grima if they were somewhere in the city. This is the guy who helped bring back Medeus only to later plot to betray him.

 

Overall, a pretty well written and nuanced take on a fictional religion that blends concepts taken from real ones. The Grimleal aren't totally evil in this depiction either- just a more extreme life-denying form of religion, which is a normal thing. Buddhism says being attached to this empty world is suffering, although some Buddhists are pretty passionate about the world in spite of this and while still being very devout. The best way to world build better is to read more history, philosophy, political science, biology, geography, economics, sociology, psychology, religion, etc. if you ask me.

As said the seal may have prevented Gharnef from sensing it. Also are we sure it's the same city of Thabes? Cause in echoes it is destroyed/abandoned, but in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery it is not in the same condition.

I'll just say that the Falchions and Divine Dragons/deities throughout the Archanaea games may or may not vary a lot between games and what is actually "canon" or known. I'll mention Star Wars, which is basically in several conflicts of it's own including pre-disney lore (EU/Legends), The Clone Wars (mostly conflicting a lot with legends). and the New Trilogy (again conflicting with legends and a lot of OG trilogy stuff). Ultimately I want to say believe what you want to believe, I think what I've said above about Grima and just so anyone with Star Wars knowledge I believe in most of the clone wars stuff mixing between the two with some altercations and I believe in the Mara Jade storyline that the new canon threw out.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, LucarioGamer812 said:

You forget you can get everyone in new mystery. Tiki and Nagi can co-exist.

I didn't. I said, "No supports in New Mystery either." Tiki and Nagi can be in the same army, but they have no supports and therefore no interaction.

[LucarioGamer812]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

I didn't. I said, "No supports in New Mystery either." Tiki and Nagi can be in the same army, but they have no supports and therefore no interaction.

I wasn't referring to that but this

2 hours ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

Well for one thing, Tiki never met Naga face to face, not even once. No supports in New Mystery either. And Tiki cannot be with you at the time of recruiting Nagi. So Tiki referring to Naga as mother is not that out of place really. Naga was not really that much of a parent to her anyways. 

In New Mystery, Tiki is in the army before chapter 22 (presumably) and you get Nagi in 22 so they have met. I take it you were referring to shadow dragon since that's how you unlock Nagi in that game. Anyways while they may have no interaction literally the only characters that do interact after their introduction or other character recruitment are Marth, Jagen, and Kris. So while it may not be showed there probably was some type of interaction.

[Arthur97]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It sort of is. Before we always had confirmation on a Dragon's tribe. Nowi is the only manakete that never got any such confirmation. Also, you said that the comics are generally non-canon, that isn't actually that much true though. It depicted what Gemstone was missing, being the Sable Gemstone, and Future Past confirmed that Lucina had one gemstone missing, and Drama CDs showed that Inigo's group was the one that missed one of the gemstones, and the gemstones that he carried were Argent and Sable. 

And Lucina picking out bad accessories instead of the mask that Severa chose, which also was in both comic and CD. And the comic also had Gaius' case of how he tried to protect Maribelle. So the comic isn't completely inaccurate. 

You also forget, Nowi cannot even remember where she was from. Odds are, she doesn't know her tribe.

And just because that stuff gets some stuff right, that doesn't make it canon. If it can be confirmed in game, then sure, but anything else is fringe at best.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

I wasn't referring to that but this

In New Mystery, Tiki is in the army before chapter 22 (presumably) and you get Nagi in 22 so they have met. I take it you were referring to shadow dragon since that's how you unlock Nagi in that game. Anyways while they may have no interaction literally the only characters that do interact after their introduction or other character recruitment are Marth, Jagen, and Kris. So while it may not be showed there probably was some type of interaction.

I was referring to the Shadow Dragon, but Tiki didn't even talk to Nagi in the story of New Mystery, nor did they have a support. So it makes it questionable on whether or not Tiki and Nagi truly do meet. There are a lot of people in New Mystery, so its questionable on whether they have actually met one another.

5 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

You also forget, Nowi cannot even remember where she was from. Odds are, she doesn't know her tribe.

And just because that stuff gets some stuff right, that doesn't make it canon. If it can be confirmed in game, then sure, but anything else is fringe at best.

Yeah, and based on the fact that we have both visited Valm and Ylisse, and Nowi says her home is across the ocean to the "left", its possibly implying she was actually born in Jugdral, the only continent that we know is in the same world as Archanea and Valentia. 

Maybe, but there are a lot of details that they do get into with the game itself. Not to mention the Drama CD even goes as far as to continue on with how Lucina survived her encounter with Grima when he attacked Ylisstol, and explaining why Parallel Falchion is strong against Grima as well. Not to mention, Support with Laslow and Odin even reference Drama CD 4 as well, even the Harvest and Hot Spring Scramble,

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Maybe, but there are a lot of details that they do get into with the game itself. Not to mention the Drama CD even goes as far as to continue on with how Lucina survived her encounter with Grima when he attacked Ylisstol, and explaining why Parallel Falchion is strong against Grima as well. Not to mention, Support with Laslow and Odin even reference Drama CD 4 as well, even the Harvest and Hot Spring Scramble,

Still doesn't make it canon. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Still doesn't make it canon. 

How so? they actually refer to it in the game. 

[Arthur97]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

How so? they actually refer to it in the game. 

Only things corroborated in game will I consider canon. I mean, they even contradict the game with the fire vs. ice breath thing. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Only things corroborated in game will I consider canon. I mean, they even contradict the game with the fire vs. ice breath thing. 

That's why I cannot say that Nowi is a Divine Dragon. It's questionable at best, but until we know for sure whether she's from that tribe, we can't exactly say that she's Divine Dragon just cause she uses the same Dragon model as Tiki.

[Arthur97]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

That's why I cannot say that Nowi is a Divine Dragon. It's questionable at best, but until we know for sure whether she's from that tribe, we can't exactly say that she's Divine Dragon just cause she uses the same Dragon model as Tiki.

So, you can't say that...because of a drama CD? 

Nowi aside, there are still probably dragons still out there. Bantu is apparently either alive or relatively recently deceased. If he could hide, surely others could.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Arthur97 said:

So, you can't say that...because of a drama CD? 

Nowi aside, there are still probably dragons still out there. Bantu is apparently either alive or relatively recently deceased. If he could hide, surely others could.

No, because there's too many contradictions. She doesn't just breathe ice in the comic. The supports say that she breathes fire. Neither of these things are stuff that Divine Dragons do. 

Bantu is implied to be alive by Nowi's tile event where she says that she met a new friend, but mispronounces Bantu's name. And while other dragons could survive, the Divine Dragons are much more unlikely, as in FE3, after the war, most if not all of the Divine Dragons used up their powers and died. FE12 omits this, so this might mean its been retconned. Forseti is believed to possibly be a Divine Dragon as well, but there's been no confirmation there. 

But the only Divine Dragons that we are confirmed to know are Tiki, Gotoh, Xane, and Nagi. The others are only presumed.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

As said the seal may have prevented Gharnef from sensing it. Also are we sure it's the same city of Thabes? Cause in echoes it is destroyed/abandoned, but in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery it is not in the same condition.

“With the aid of the White Sage Gotoh’s powerful Warp magic, Marth and company were transported to the faraway city of Thabes. Once, Thabes was an advanced civilization; but only its decay advanced now. The League traced the lifeless streets to the temple at the city’s heart, somewhere within its walls Gharnef was waiting, and now, Marth must wrest Falchion and his sister, Elice, from the fiend’s grip.”

Sounds like it's ruined to me. The magic seal on Grima explanation would probably be the best excuse. (And Gharnef would have loved a new pet had he known.)

 

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I was referring to the Shadow Dragon, but Tiki didn't even talk to Nagi in the story of New Mystery, nor did they have a support. So it makes it questionable on whether or not Tiki and Nagi truly do meet. There are a lot of people in New Mystery, so its questionable on whether they have actually met one another.

Abel and Cain don't get a support with each other for crying out loud! A third of the non-Kris supports are taken up by at least one Whitewing. IS missed an enormous number of opportunities with NM's supports. If they couldn't give the original red and green duo conversations together, well it is wholly possible that they could have left out a Tiki-Nagi conversation just out of out limited resources/blindness. (To make things worse for Abel and Cain, they gave supports between most other duos. And Abel even got one with Est.)

Though to your point, Chapters 22-24 were all one prolonged chapter in original Mystery, so they must happen pretty quickly after one another, not a lot of time to chat. However, Minerva and Michalis do still make time for each other.

I really wish Tiki actually brought up Naga at some point. I'd understand her not having that strong an attachment to her due to lack of memories, but I'd still like her opinion on her own mother.

 

As for Bantu still being alive- how old can he be? And where is Xane and Gotoh (who certainly aged better than Bantu looking at SD/NM)? I almost want to deny Bantu is still alive, because they easter egg him in, but leave the much younger Xaney out entirely! It isn't like he is a lover to Tiki, more like a brother from what SD says, Robin could steal her heart with Xane present and there wouldn't be anything wrong with it.

 

4 hours ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

I'll just say that the Falchions and Divine Dragons/deities throughout the Archanaea games may or may not vary a lot between games and what is actually "canon" or known. I'll mention Star Wars, which is basically in several conflicts of it's own including pre-disney lore (EU/Legends), The Clone Wars (mostly conflicting a lot with legends). and the New Trilogy (again conflicting with legends and a lot of OG trilogy stuff). Ultimately I want to say believe what you want to believe, I think what I've said above about Grima and just so anyone with Star Wars knowledge I believe in most of the clone wars stuff mixing between the two with some altercations and I believe in the Mara Jade storyline that the new canon threw out.

From the FE4 Playing Guide Designer Notes:

Finally, there is a final word from Kaga who mentions that every player has their own story; the discussions here are just a few of these stories, they aren’t supposed to be the true answers or settings.

Call it a cheap cop out for not fully explaining everything. Or take him at his word and let your imagination run free.

[omegaxis1]

14 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

“With the aid of the White Sage Gotoh’s powerful Warp magic, Marth and company were transported to the faraway city of Thabes. Once, Thabes was an advanced civilization; but only its decay advanced now. The League traced the lifeless streets to the temple at the city’s heart, somewhere within its walls Gharnef was waiting, and now, Marth must wrest Falchion and his sister, Elice, from the fiend’s grip.”

Sounds like it's ruined to me. The magic seal on Grima explanation would probably be the best excuse. (And Gharnef would have loved a new pet had he known.)

This one actually makes me wonder. Who created said advanced civilization? Humans or dragons? Cause there's a lot of implications saying that Forneus was human, not dragon, given that the Senate sent in human messengers and soldiers, that were killed and turned into Risen. 

Also, yeah, Gharnef would love a pet... until said pet actually eats him. 

15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Abel and Cain don't get a support with each other for crying out loud! A third of the non-Kris supports are taken up by at least one Whitewing. IS missed an enormous number of opportunities with NM's supports. If they couldn't give the original red and green duo conversations together, well it is wholly possible that they could have left out a Tiki-Nagi conversation just out of out limited resources/blindness. (To make things worse for Abel and Cain, they gave supports between most other duos. And Abel even got one with Est.)

Though to your point, Chapters 22-24 were all one prolonged chapter in original Mystery, so they must happen pretty quickly after one another, not a lot of time to chat. However, Minerva and Michalis do still make time for each other.

I really wish Tiki actually brought up Naga at some point. I'd understand her not having that strong an attachment to her due to lack of memories, but I'd still like her opinion on her own mother.

You know, this actually makes me think that maybe Nagi might have actually purposefully avoided Tiki. If she has memories as Naga, then Nagi knows that she tried to kill her daughter. And even though she didn't, she condemned said daughter to an eternal sleep. 

But yeah, New Mystery missed a lot of opportunities, and have Kris be the center of supports. 

18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

From the FE4 Playing Guide Designer Notes:

Finally, there is a final word from Kaga who mentions that every player has their own story; the discussions here are just a few of these stories, they aren’t supposed to be the true answers or settings.

Call it a cheap cop out for not fully explaining everything. Or take him at his word and let your imagination run free.

Definitely the case with how Awakening and Fates has anyone be paired up... oh wait, same with Genealogy. Though unlike Awakening and Fates, Genealogy actually confirmed some pairings. Although Kaga I believe already intended all the pairings at first.