Red Fox of Fire (Laura) vs. Lyle Dayek (Rhys)

[Florete]

Additional rules (Taken from Lyle's character review topic):

Transfer bonuses: Yes, Rhys has the advantage of potential transfer bonuses. However, performance aside from these must also be considered, since not everyone owns PoR. Furthermore, only the stats he's likely to cap should even be considered to be transferred. This means Magic, Skill, and Resistance, and maybe Speed. A speed transfer means almost nothing though, as it has a rather low chance to cap in PoR. The other 3 are almost definitely capping.

Bonus experience: The potential to effectively use BEXP can definitely be considered here. I assume you know how it works.

Difficulty: I've only played Normal (and lolEasy), and I assume you'd prefer to debate normal. Hard mode can be considered, but in no way definite.

Average stats: I don't put huge emphasis on them, but they're a nice guideline. BEXP will end up throwing them out the window, anyway.

Battle saving: We aren't doing any battle save abuse to get better level ups, ever.

Performance throughout the entire game matters, even endgame, but with less emphasis there.

I'll edit in my opening argument some time tonight.

It's time I kicked things off.

Let's start with the competition.

Laura: Virtually none before part 3. Micaiah is the only other character that can heal, but she gets damaged in return, so it just means Laura can heal her. Tormod and Ilyana are the only others ever able to use staves, but that's at third tier. They aren't likely reaching there while they are still on the same team. Come part 2, Micaiah can also use staves, so this gives Laura someone to compete with. However, Laura can easily be promoted now, so she can fight or heal. Not too bad of an advantage.

Rhys: Mist. While she has 10 less magic at base, I'd say she's more likely to be used for a few reasons. 1) Pretty pony upon promotion, 2) A good support with Boyd that also nets a free Spirit Dust, 3) Considerably better speed, also noting that she's much more likely to get a transfer in speed, 4) Swords, meaning she's better for endgame. Her Prf weapon is also pretty damn awesome.

Then there's Soren and Ilyana. They aren't healing until promotion, but when they do, Rhys might be dropped entirely.

While Laura is almost definitely being used on her team, Rhys can easily be dropped as soon as possible. Points for Laura.

Supports time!

Laura - Wind affinity.

Micaiah is her best choice for a support partner, with +15 avoid and +2 attack (and +8 accuracy...). Both are also backline characters. In the event she can't get Micaiah...

Edward or Ilyana - Light affinity: Full accuracy (+15), +2 defense, and +8 avoid. Accuracy is next to useless for her. Edward is better supported elsewhere, and Ilyana leaves. Next.

Leonardo - Water affinity: +2 attack, +2 defense, +8 accuracy, +8 avoid. Not bad, but not amazing either. He would be a pretty good support partner seeing as they are both backline units.

Nolan, Volug, Zihark, Fiona - Earth affinity: +8 accuracy, +30 avoid. This is what she wants. That +30 avoid is pretty awesome, and will help a lot in the long run when she's fighting. She can easily nail Nolan, Volug or Zihark if Nolan isn't in play, and Fiona if one feels like using her.

Aran, Tauroneo, Jill - Thunder affinity: defense +2, Accuracy +8, avoid +15. Pretty nice. Gives a decent durability boost, and helps the partner possibly more than it does her. For these three, it's Aran>Jill>Tauroneo, since Mr. T only has one part 1 chapter.

Meg - Heaven affinity: avoid +8, accuracy +35. Lolno.

Anyone else in part one she isn't likely supporting unless you have a plan for late game.

A pretty nice support with Micaiah, any of the earth quartet, Aran or Jill. Aran, Micaiah, or Nolan, are the best three candidates. Plus, all of the possibilities are also getting good benefits from her. Micaiah and Nolan like the avoid, Aran loves the defense and accuracy. I'd say Aran definitely wants a Laura support.

Rhys - Fire affinity:

I don't want to go into as much detail with him, but his affinity gives attack and accuracy. Light magic is accurate enough, and Rhys already has pretty darn high magic. His most likely support partner is Mia to match his bonuses. She's benefitting from the attack boost, but not so much from the accuracy. Overall, it feels like a wasted support, and Mia might be better off waiting for Reyson.

But how useful are they in their given chapters? Laura comes early in what some people deem the hardest part of the game; she's practically a necessity. Rhys is part of an already overpowered team that might not even need healing, and Mist can suffice if it does. Nowhere near necessary.

There are other points I could make, but I'll wait to see what you have to say first.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mufasa]

- Laura does not have competition for healer in Part 1. However, she can be replaced by items, which if you use Sothe to steal them from enemies, are not in short supply. This arugument of course can be used against Rhys and Mist as well. But for the first few chapters of Part 3, you aren't allowed to access the store for items, and there are no theifs to steal them from opponents. Also, funds are short on Ike's team till when they join up with Elincia.

-Second, there's the case of usefulness. Though Laura is the only healer, she is merely a utility. A utility that needs to be protected from enemies. And while Rhys is no god of battle to start, he has the ability to defend himself, should the occasion arrise. He can also damage an enemy, so that one of your weaker units can come along and defeat the opponent for EXP. Laura is simply a healer, and has no battle skills until she promotes.

-Which brings me to my next argument. When you first get Laura, she has very little ways of getting EXP. One is her heal staff, which only gives her 11 EXP points. That means you would have to heal someone approx 9-10 times before she levels up. Which would mean you have to spend that many turns on a level. Which at the beginning of the game, levels are very short, and if you really wanted to, you can blow them out in 6 turns. Also, this method would also mean that someone on your team MUST be injured. And while that is simple enough to complete, and happens enough without you forcing it to, it means that you might have to count on someone being injured. Which in Fire Emblem, is not something that you should be hoping for.

-The second and third methods for Laura to get exp are staff battle, and BEXP respectivley. In the first case, Laura would have to be in the range of an enemy. Which is not a good place for a healer to be when they first start out. Usually it means certain death for Laura, unless she's extremely lucky. And even if she does manage to survive, she does no damage to any opponent because of her weak strength, and her lousy Heal staff. As for BEXP, it is hard to come by in the beginning of the game, and though you can use it on her, it should not be a crutch for you to completely raise her on.

If you consider that she gains one full level each chapter, she will only end up at about level 10 by the end of the part. If she is even used in all the chapters she's available in. Thus, the only way to effectively raise Laura is by abuse in some form. Whether you abuse her heal staves and take 30 turns to complete a chapter, or you abuse bexp, it will take some abuse to raise her.

But enough about Laura. Here's my take on Rhys:

Rhys comes into part 3, with Elight, Mend, and Heal. If you used the por boost, he will come with capped magic, which is useful considering he's only level 3. He automatically can defend himself with his Elight should the need for it arises. He is effective as a support row character. EX: If you have someone like Gatrie blocking an enemy, Gatrie's low speed will prevent him from killing the enemy that attacked him, which Rhys can attack him with Elight for cleanup. Or, in the opposite case, Gatrie kills plenty of units, but he is injured by them all, Rhys can provide healing to Gatrie. Meaning that Rhys can go from additional attack force, to support for another unit, at any time.

Looking at the teams they come on:

Laura comes on the DB. Which with the exceptions of a few jeigans, they will all need coddling in order to make them an effective unit. Laura falls into the ladder of the two. For the first few levels she's forced in, being able to heal characters, and recruit Aran, who will also be useful, but after those two levels, she begins to become a liability. She starts to slip up, and it shows that she can easily be replaced with items, and that you'll want to cover a wider area of healing, which she won't be able to do. Along with the support thing, she will always be around her supporter, who may not always need healing, while someone across the map may need assistance. In short, as the maps get larger, Laura's effeciveness becomes less.

Rhys comes in on Ike's team. And while the rest of them are overpowered, and if they have their respective stat boosts from Por, will trump everyone, Rhys's prowess is not limited by his healing abilities, since he can use light magic off the bat. And in the larger maps, Mist can also help heal if Rhys is not around.

In short, Rhys is difficult to level up on Ike's team in comparision to the rest of the Greil mercs, but he has a better oppurtunity to get more exp, and has more screentime.

[Florete]

- Laura does not have competition for healer in Part 1. However, she can be replaced by items, which if you use Sothe to steal them from enemies, are not in short supply. This arugument of course can be used against Rhys and Mist as well. But for the first few chapters of Part 3, you aren't allowed to access the store for items, and there are no theifs to steal them from opponents. Also, funds are short on Ike's team till when they join up with Elincia.

For two chapters the GM's are without a thief. Then Heather comes. This is also the chapter the Silver Card is available and Ilyana may have come over with some items to sell. Time to stock up on items, including healing items.

Laura has two forced maps withouot a shop, and look, so does Rhys! But wait, Laura's two chapters are Sieze and Arrive; no limit to how long things take. Rhys's chapters are 1)Skrimir arrives, which happens in about 8 turns and 2) Kill all enemies in 12 turns, which normally happens in 9-10 turns. Laura can heal every little bit of damage while Rhys doesn't have the time, considering some of your units won't even be hurt.

Vulneraries got a major buff, this is true. But fighting/shoving/stealing/etc. on a turn > healing yourself. Laura helps your team do this by taking care of the healing part.

-Second, there's the case of usefulness. Though Laura is the only healer, she is merely a utility. A utility that needs to be protected from enemies. And while Rhys is no god of battle to start, he has the ability to defend himself, should the occasion arrise. He can also damage an enemy, so that one of your weaker units can come along and defeat the opponent for EXP. Laura is simply a healer, and has no battle skills until she promotes.

You may not know this, but there are actually a good amount of mages throughout part 1 that don't move! She can damage them and if they hurt her, she'll heal it back anyway. Not too efficient, but it works quite well since you're likely taking a while to complete most chapters anyway.

Also, Rhys defending himself is lol. He has such horrid speed and defense, a lot of enemies can one round him. He might be the most vulnerable character on the team to start, with only Mist to possibly compete. But she has WTA advantage against axes should she be attacked by one (Which she shouldn't) as well as more speed and HP. His ability to weaken enemies is nice, but the rest of your team fulfills that well; only Ike, Titania, and maybe Shinon are one-rounding anything, so it's best to have someone that is solely a combat unit do the weakening so they can get the exp.

-Which brings me to my next argument. When you first get Laura, she has very little ways of getting EXP. One is her heal staff, which only gives her 11 EXP points. That means you would have to heal someone approx 9-10 times before she levels up. Which would mean you have to spend that many turns on a level. Which at the beginning of the game, levels are very short, and if you really wanted to, you can blow them out in 6 turns. Also, this method would also mean that someone on your team MUST be injured. And while that is simple enough to complete, and happens enough without you forcing it to, it means that you might have to count on someone being injured. Which in Fire Emblem, is not something that you should be hoping for.

Already mentioned the mage thing as well the first 2 chapters thing. Her maps aren't at all short. 6 turns is a major understatement when you have a weak team and a fair amount of good enemies.

-The second and third methods for Laura to get exp are staff battle, and BEXP respectivley. In the first case, Laura would have to be in the range of an enemy. Which is not a good place for a healer to be when they first start out. Usually it means certain death for Laura, unless she's extremely lucky. And even if she does manage to survive, she does no damage to any opponent because of her weak strength, and her lousy Heal staff. As for BEXP, it is hard to come by in the beginning of the game, and though you can use it on her, it should not be a crutch for you to completely raise her on.

What's awesome for her and BEXP is that, unlike every other character on her team, it won't cause her to level any slower, since she doesn't rely on enemies to grow levels but her own experience pool. This makes getting her to 99 exp in the base a great idea, so she can gain an immediate level on the map and won't even take much of your BEXP.

If you consider that she gains one full level each chapter, she will only end up at about level 10 by the end of the part. If she is even used in all the chapters she's available in. Thus, the only way to effectively raise Laura is by abuse in some form. Whether you abuse her heal staves and take 30 turns to complete a chapter, or you abuse bexp, it will take some abuse to raise her.

If you use my above method, she can easily gain 2-3 levels a chapter with the possible exception of her first two maps. But also consider this: she has low first tier and second tier caps. Promoting her at level 15-16 can prove to be a very good idea. She caps magic, skill, and speed very fast anyway (70% growth ftw), and then BEXP is perfect for her. So she may not even have to get to level 20 to still be a great unit.

Laura comes on the DB. Which with the exceptions of a few jeigans, they will all need coddling in order to make them an effective unit. Laura falls into the ladder of the two. For the first few levels she's forced in, being able to heal characters, and recruit Aran, who will also be useful, but after those two levels, she begins to become a liability. She starts to slip up, and it shows that she can easily be replaced with items, and that you'll want to cover a wider area of healing, which she won't be able to do. Along with the support thing, she will always be around her supporter, who may not always need healing, while someone across the map may need assistance. In short, as the maps get larger, Laura's effeciveness becomes less.

You'd get rid of her because she can't reach everyone? You can do the same thing with Rhys, as he has the same problem. He can't reach everyone. And won't Rhys be with his support partner, or does he not have one? If someone across the map needs assistance, that's what vulneraries are for. Laura > healing items for the team she's with. And remember the swamp level? Poison axes! An experience garden for Laura! As well as Rafiel and his spammable level ups. More possibilities.

Rhys comes in on Ike's team. And while the rest of them are overpowered, and if they have their respective stat boosts from Por, will trump everyone, Rhys's prowess is not limited by his healing abilities, since he can use light magic off the bat. And in the larger maps, Mist can also help heal if Rhys is not around.

Lol. You're helping me here. An overpowered team has much less need of a healer than an underpowered team like Micaiah's, and also much less need of a mediocre-at-best fighting unit, especially when they have PoR boosts.

I'm jumping to DB part 3 now. Laura is almost necessary. In 3-6, laguz do insane amounts of damage to even the tank Aran. You need all the healing ability you can get. Laura should also be able to fight now, and she can likely double Tigers, maybe cats, for a good amount of damage. If she's given Beastfoe, she murders everything. She and Micaiah have the same role here, and both are necessary for survival. Micaiah packs a bigger punch, but doesn't double. Both will be healing quite often. You also now have access to the sexy Physic, Recover, and Torch staves; even more experience potential.

3-12. Laura is still necessary. Some enemies may be higher level than your own dudes, and they have evenly distributed weapon triangle coverage. People WILL get hurt. If you want, you can send Laura or Micaiah to the left with someone to help out the Big T, and now the two aren't fighting for experience (which they weren't likely doing anyway).

3-13. Micaiah can't move past the line, so now Laura is the only healer in range of most of your units. She's still necessary. Bonus: She has the sexy Sleep staff, which is the only way you have a chance of defeating Ike. So Laura is absolutely necessary if you want to defeat Ike.

Don't forget that Laura has access to Paragon and Rhys does not. Laura is also a perfect candidate for reasons stated; Going up in level doesn't slow her down. With smart use of Paragon, she won't even be underleveled by the time part 4 comes around. Add to this that she can still fight, even though it's obvious she has no need to.

During part 3, Rhys is part of an overpowered team that hardly needs healing help, and is getting it already anyway from Mist, who is arguably better later, and so is more likely to be used. And his only staves for a while are Heal and Mend. He eventually gets Restore for maybe a one time use, and Recover for more experience but also more money than the team can afford. Laura has sexy staves to use, and her team can't afford for her not to use them.

Part 4 (I'm on a role!)

Both are starting to be less useful. Other magic units (Soren, Ilyana, Calill mainly) can have promoted and be using staves now and are arguably better fighters. Plus, the overall need for staff help has decreased. Because of their rate of growth, Rhys and Laura are likely around the same level. Though, that isn't entirely true; Laura caps stats much faster than Rhys and so has much better BEXP potential. She can easily soar above him in level since Rhys might not even be using BEXP before promotion while Laura definitely is.

Endgame.

Assuming they both cap all stats, here is the difference.

Laura: +2 magic, +1 speed, +5 luck.

Rhys: +5 HP, +2 strength, +1 defense.

Rhys's advantages are almost non-existant. 5 HP, but less luck and speed, so he gets hit more often anyway. One defense, but neither are getting hit much (even though Rhys is getting hit more). The Strength is utterly meaningless. Laura has better magic and so is much better offensively. The problem is that neither are likely to cap all stats, but Laura has the better BEXP potential and so has the better capping potential and has better caps. Come Endgame, Laura's win is obvious, even though both are crap for endgame.

Phew. That took a while.

And look at this. Mist > Rhys anyway. So it's Mist>Laura>Rhys.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mufasa]

You may not know this, but there are actually a good amount of mages throughout part 1 that don't move!

...Actually, I didn't know that.

That probably would have made a difference in my opinion.

So I guess I concede. I passed the time limit for my response anyway. I'll change the thing in my topic when I edit it all.

Still, I probably wouldn't use either of them anyway. At least over another unit.

[Florete]

...Actually, I didn't know that.

That probably would have made a difference in my opinion.

So I guess I concede. I passed the time limit for my response anyway. I'll change the thing in my topic when I edit it all.

Still, I probably wouldn't use either of them anyway. At least over another unit.

Your personal rating doesn't have to be affected by a debate. That's just your opinion based on your personal experience. This is the better character in general.

People can comment on the debate now if they wish.

[Kintenbo]

*waits for Destiny Hero to say something mean about Laura*

Yay for Laura! It's sad, that low skill and speed max for Priests was weird.....

[Tino]

So I guess I concede. I passed the time limit for my response anyway. I'll change the thing in my topic when I edit it all.

There is no time limit here.

[Mekkah]

The idea with debating FEF was that no one but the debaters would post in the debating topic itself, but that discussion happens in one of the stickies, like the Challenge Thread. Of course, we don't have to stick with that.