Skills vs Stats

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

In most Fire Emblem games Stats are the great decider between a bad and good unit. Classes decided the unit's stats, aside from variance born from each character's personal differences. Myrmidons would live or die based on how much Strength and Defense they got or failing that if their speed was high enough to make up for it. Knights were nearly unbreakable walls with their huge Strength and Defense but weakened by their very low speed

In Genealogy of the Holy War skills are way more important since double attacks aren't even possible unless you have pursuit. Similarly getting a crit is only possible with certain weapons, or the Critical skill.

Similarly, in Awakening and Fates stats are less important than skills because a simple class change can be used to catch up on any weaknesses your character might have drummed up. Changing Kellam the knight into a Thief makes it pretty easy to raise your speed and skill high enough to not be doubled, even back as a knight. Especially since you can grind up your stats by second sealing and releveling

What are your thoughts on this?

[indigoasis]

Skills can make an otherwise bad unit good, and stats can be grinded up to max in certain games. There's no right or wrong way to go, really, but having skills and stats work in tandem is important for a unit's survival, too. There are plenty of skills that can only activate based on a unit's stats, usually luck and skill. Aether and Miracle are prime examples of skills that rely on a unit's stats to activate.

So in short, both are equally important. Optimization isn't necessary at all, but it certainly helps.

[Shadow Mir]

I think you're underselling the importance of stats, as far as Fates and Awakening go - especially in Fates, where class changing doesn't reset your level, and in Conquest in particular, you're gonna have a REALLY bad time if Corrin doesn't have enough speed to avoid being doubled by Ryoma. Your mentioning Genealogy is a bad example because Pursuit is one of the main reasons why balance is nonexistent.

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

11 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I think you're underselling the importance of stats, as far as Fates and Awakening go - especially in Fates, where class changing doesn't reset your level, and in Conquest in particular, you're gonna have a REALLY bad time if Corrin doesn't have enough speed to avoid being doubled by Ryoma. Your mentioning Genealogy is a bad example because Pursuit is one of the main reasons why balance is nonexistent.

Alright I suppose I was being a bit unfair with that Genealogy example since that game as a whole is very broken. Also I made a mistake with Fates since I assumed it worked like in Awakening where you reset to 1 every time you changed classes. I apologize

The thing I'm trying to get at is that Awakening and Fates (more specifically Birthright since it allows grinding) allows optimization of skills and stats through the use of reclassing, eternal seals, and level grinding. In particular, some characters can have planned promotion and class change routes to obtain a powerful mix of skills, while in the old games what you see is typically what you get and the only skills are personal, and those added with scrolls.

[Shadow Mir]

20 minutes ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

Alright I suppose I was being a bit unfair with that Genealogy example since that game as a whole is very broken. Also I made a mistake with Fates since I assumed it worked like in Awakening where you reset to 1 every time you changed classes. I apologize

The thing I'm trying to get at is that Awakening and Fates (more specifically Birthright since it allows grinding) allows optimization of skills and stats through the use of reclassing, eternal seals, and level grinding. In particular, some characters can have planned promotion and class change routes to obtain a powerful mix of skills, while in the old games what you see is typically what you get and the only skills are personal, and those added with scrolls.

The issue with Fates is that Eternal Seals are very expensive at 12 grand for 5 more levels. And that unlike in Awakening, there's little to use those stats for other than PvP (have fun with all the hackers!). Being able to grind up doesn't help much if you get screwed to the point of unviability.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

Even so some skills like Wary fighter, and the Weapon Breaker skills are so powerful that they change the way a unit plays and is used. Wary fighter makes Knights highly resistant to sword users because their high speed can no longer guarantee a hefty double attack. The breaker skills combined with high stats can be enough to nullify the chance for someone to be hit by the weapon they are good against.

This is true of a lot of skills across all the games, like Vantage and Wrath, but unlike in the old ones, in Fates and Awakening you can acquire up to 5 (six in Fates if you have a personal skill)

I have no problem with skills as a whole but it seems like a proper set up can make a character near gamebreaking

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

Even so some skills like Wary fighter, and the Weapon Breaker skills are so powerful that they change the way a unit plays and is used. Wary fighter makes Knights highly resistant to sword users because their high speed can no longer guarantee a hefty double attack. The breaker skills combined with high stats can be enough to nullify the chance for someone to be hit by the weapon they are good against.

This is true of a lot of skills across all the games, like Vantage and Wrath, but unlike in the old ones, in Fates and Awakening you can acquire up to 5 (six in Fates if you have a personal skill)

I have no problem with skills as a whole but it seems like a proper set up can make a character near gamebreaking

Knights already tend to have good matchups against swords since sword users tend to have low strength and WTD. So that wasn't that good an argument. Breaker skills don't become relevant until the game is practically over.

[Reality]

I think I would say Stats > Skills in Awakening and Fates - both games are VERY playable with keeping all units in their base class, after all.

Re-classing does give players things to use against the map design, but it itself isn't always skill based ... Sure Dark Fliers in Awakening and stacking buffs in Fates exists... but other units are reclassed solely for growth rate multipliers or weapon access and soft stats (movement) such as Panne and the dark mage eligble people, or well, a ton of units to Wyvern Rider (nevermind how FE11-FE12 use reclassing with a huge emphasis on Base class stats). 

I think that FE4, FE5, and FE10 are where Skills are at their most important. Although if you interpret movement and PCC as stats rather than soft stats they would still have the disadvantage.

FE10 is also VERY playable without ever moving skills , but moving critical based skills (for Pt 1) and moving Nihil around (most of Pt 4) nearly change the game on a fundamental level and make it much more reliable to play.. 

Finally, there is Canto : Whether you interpret it as a core gameplay mechanic or a skill (due to the mounted unit lock) would obviously have a huge impact on the total importance of Skills.

Of course there is Canto for only non attacking options (GBA) and the full on everything Canto, but both are obviously top-tier compared to both stats or lesser skills. 

Getting multi attacked by cavalry with only 1 slot on you even makes it a more dangerous enemy skill in FE4/FE5/FE9/FE10 than most  of the Boss exclusive skills. In the player hands it's still outrageous. When picking off an enemy in a group and then taking no enemy phase is only the simplest application of a skill, you know it's special.  

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

I'm just saying you can get a spearfighter/spearmaster to lower a unit's defence and speed by 6 each, raise their own attack by 5 because of their lance buff, and still class chance them to Basara to get them a skill to have a chance of boosting their attack by half of their opponent's strength or magic

A Knight or General that has class changed to get Renewal is a hard nut to crack because they already have wary fighter to ward off double attacks, and if stacked with another buffing or healing skill like Amaterasu you are looking at a very hard fight

I'm just saying that in those games you can stack the skills so much in your favor that whenever you see an opponent it's a good idea to check they don't have a setup that will ruin yours, and you are encouraged to get skill combinations that bolster your units heavily

Compare this to say... Path of Radiance where skills are certainly important, Astrid with Paragon and Nephenee with Wrath stand out in my mind, but all the same you can identify the strengths and weaknesses of units and enemies on sight, by class because of their stats. And definitely not because the falcon knight has bowbreaker and that thief secretly has poison blow

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

Alright I suppose most of what I'm saying is based on worst case scenarios, and the assumption that people make absurd skill builds. Which as the last couple posters have told me is not how things go

[Shadow Mir]

48 minutes ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

I'm just saying you can get a spearfighter/spearmaster to lower a unit's defence and speed by 6 each, raise their own attack by 5 because of their lance buff, and still class chance them to Basara to get them a skill to have a chance of boosting their attack by half of their opponent's strength or magic

A Knight or General that has class changed to get Renewal is a hard nut to crack because they already have wary fighter to ward off double attacks, and if stacked with another buffing or healing skill like Amaterasu you are looking at a very hard fight

I'm just saying that in those games you can stack the skills so much in your favor that whenever you see an opponent it's a good idea to check they don't have a setup that will ruin yours, and you are encouraged to get skill combinations that bolster your units heavily

Compare this to say... Path of Radiance where skills are certainly important, Astrid with Paragon and Nephenee with Wrath stand out in my mind, but all the same you can identify the strengths and weaknesses of units and enemies on sight, by class because of their stats. And definitely not because the falcon knight has bowbreaker and that thief secretly has poison blow

And I'm just saying you need to stop overrating the importance of skills - it isn't like reclassing is done solely for skills. Stats might also be a reason for reclassing. 

You're right... If you didn't have anti-armor weapons or magic, that is.

And I would imagine that the stats from the grinding needed to get those combinations would be the greater factor. And you would do well to check your opponent out anyway to see their stats and weapon to determine how best to engage them, as opposed to charging in blindly and realizing too late that you should have engaged that myrmidon with somebody besides your knight because they had an armorslayer.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Bhoop]

Skills and Classes are unbalanced, in my opinion. If I were to have my way, all skills would be personal and stats would be balanced. (I am working on a balanced version...its not ready...I'll make a topic similar to this sooner or later when its done. Currently focusing on finals atm.)

 

[X-Naut]

12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I think you're underselling the importance of stats, as far as Fates and Awakening go - especially in Fates, where class changing doesn't reset your level, and in Conquest in particular, you're gonna have a REALLY bad time if Corrin doesn't have enough speed to avoid being doubled by Ryoma. Your mentioning Genealogy is a bad example because Pursuit is one of the main reasons why balance is nonexistent.

Uh this would be why Genealogy is a good example of skills > stats, they're a huge factor in what makes a unit good at combat. It's far from the only broken skill though: there's Adept with its crazy activation rate, Wrath doubling your Atk at half health or lower, and Astra turning one attack into five.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Uh this would be why Genealogy is a good example of skills > stats, they're a huge factor in what makes a unit good at combat. It's far from the only broken skill though: there's Adept with its crazy activation rate, Wrath doubling your Atk at half health or lower, and Astra turning one attack into five.

True enough. But I think there are other factors that are just as, if not more impactful. Like having a horse.

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

I feel that the stat and Skill balance varies between games. Path of Radiance seems fairly good because all skills are personal, except for a handful of scrolls you can hand out. Most skills are very useful but only appear on one or two characters and as a scroll.

Radiant Dawn kinda drops the ball on stat and skill balance. While stats are important the near constant influx of powerful units, including the addition of the Laguz Royals right as part 4 starts, makes it way less important in the long run than passing around skill scrolls. In particular, Nihil and the Mastery skills are very important for shattering the difficulty of the last third of the game

Obviously, in Genealogy, the balance is fairly broken with skills like Pursuit, Continue, and Critical being complete game-changers. Especially since the second generation can inherit skills from their parents enabling the child characters to have as many as 3 or 4 skills

But upon further reflection, the skills in Awakening and Fates are more often than not good bonuses, that can potentially stack up to add greatly to a character, but it takes nearly religious levelling and class changing to actually achieve something game-breaking. Many of the skills simply add to, or are even based on the stats of the user so the stats and skills are fairly balanced. That was my misconception

[NinjaMonkey]

13 minutes ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

In particular, Nihil and the Mastery skills are very important for shattering the difficulty of the last third of the game.

The Mastery skills sure, but I'm not sure about Nihil considering only a handful of enemy unit have offensive skills.

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

Black Knight.

Eclipse

Five times damage

Nullifies defence

If Ike doesn't have Nihil he has a 40% chance of dying instantly on every attack made by the Black Knight. Also, the Dragon King has Ire and that is basically an additional 18% chance of a critical hit, which is pretty much an instant kill given his high stats and damage. Granted those are two specific examples, but those examples are so great that people plan who to put Nihil on because of those two instances

Edited May 5, 2018 by Griffinlwgameplayer

[NinjaMonkey]

19 minutes ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

Black Knight.

Eclipse

Five times damage

Nullifies defence

If Ike doesn't have Nihil he has a 40% chance of dying instantly on every attack made by the Black Knight. Also, the Dragon King has Ire and that is basically an additional 18% chance of a critical hit, which is pretty much an instant kill given his high stats and damage. Granted those are two specific examples, but those examples are so great that people plan who to put Nihil on because of those two instances

I've never seen either of those activate, especially Ire. Also, Ire only works at melee range, so...

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

Well eclipse has a 40% chance of activating and Ire has 18%. Black Knight is a duel with Ike so he could very easily die to it if he doesn't kill him fast or have Nihil. The Dragon King is a battle against like.... 20-30+ dragons depending on difficulty, with him standing around in the middle ready to attack you. Attacking from range is a big help but also kinda sucks because it limits you to the ranged weapons, of which most are weaker than melee weapons. Also in the same chapter as the black knight you face someone with Impale, a chance at dealing four times the shown damage based on their skill. Plus both of the holy men in the tower have Corona, which has a chance of nullifying a person's resistance which can also be pretty bad

Basically mastery skills suck when you go up against them and there have been times where people had to cherry pick who to give Nihil to

[NinjaMonkey]

6 hours ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

Also in the same chapter as the black knight you face someone with Impale, a chance at dealing four times the shown damage based on their skill.

Levail is a joke as I have Soren kill him with Blizzard from 10 spaces away.

[Bhoop]

2 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Levail is a joke as I have Soren kill him with Blizzard from 10 spaces away.

I kinda agree though. Levail was a bit underwhelming. Though you are stuck with fighting through that big horde of enemies if you don't have siege tomes.

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

3 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Levail is a joke as I have Soren kill him with Blizzard from 10 spaces away.

Which is another way of bypassing their mastery skills, killing them from a distance/where they can't attack before they can do anything drastic

[DisobeyedCargo]

They both help. Though you can get through any game without skills. Hell the first three games didn't have a traditional skill system, aside from stuff like slayer for falconknights in Gaiden.

skills also aren't always garunteed to activate. 

 

Im giving it to stats