Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists

[LegendOfLoog]

2 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Have you personally seen them not mesh well together? Or are you just going by the descriptions? Because some of the combat in this game is coded in such a way that it wouldn't surprise me if the game treated Vantage as a player phase initiate combat that would make Desperation work.

I know that each individually only works on the phase it says. Vantage never works on Player Phase, and none of my units with low health have ever procced Desperation on Enemy Phase. I haven’t had them both on the same unit, so if they do something different together, I wouldn’t know. 

[Burklight]

1 minute ago, Silly said:

I don't think battalion vantage works with a dead battalion.

 Also, vantage is not very useful if you do not OHKO enemies. Whether or not you attack first doesn't matter unless you're killing the enemy with  your first attack.

25~30% crit is a fairly reasonable pseudo defense when layered with mediocre avoid and vantage. I'm going to test some of this stuff tonight. I'll post anything weird.

[Dark Holy Elf]

58 minutes ago, ApocaLips said:

The game is balanced a lot better than that. War Master gives +5 damage and 20 crit on a weapon type that inherently has the brave property. Its damage potential is way higher than I’m used to from fire emblems over the last decade, and it’s not even really being considered because it has two less move and no canto in a game where you have multiple shots of stride per map?

No gauntlet has more than 4 mt. Brave Axe+ has 13 (admittedly, it's +7 weight on silver gauntlets, though this gap is eaten into by the fact that the fliers have 2-3 more speed), with the other brave weapons slightly behind. What exactly is uniquely high about War Master's damage potential, aside from crits which are unreliable?

Then consider that axes, lances, and bows are much more well-rounded weapons overall; they 1-2 ranged options (1-4 in the case of Bow Knight!) and a far better enemy phase than gauntlets with their low mt and 1-range lock.

So even before the fact that wyvern/falcon/bow knight has extra move (which is extremely helpful for claiming those first-strike player phase OHKOs) and canto I'm not really super-impressed by War Master.

[Hyper L Acc2]

I feel like the game needs a Authority  A+ Rank based Master Class with minimal 15 Cha and a Gambit use x2 Class Skill.

Ignatz would have a preety good role with that, even with his low Cha growth, since he is proficient in Authority.

[UNLEASH IT]

Is Manuela good? I never used her, but I see that she has C rank faith and gets Warp at A rank.

Edited August 20, 2019 by UNLEASH IT

[Cysx]

7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Then consider that axes, lances, and bows are much more well-rounded weapons overall; they 1-2 ranged options (1-4 in the case of Bow Knight!) and a far better enemy phase than gauntlets with their low mt and 1-range lock.

Keep in mind that there exists a buyable battalion on every path with a gambit that gives up to 6 units unlimited counter range for five turns, aka essentially the entire chapter(I tried, it even counters 10 range tomes with 1 range weapons). That being said, it is true that gauntlets aren't the best at EP regardless. Their true strength is that quadding with them is excessively easier than with a brave of any kind, with more uses and better accuracy to boot.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Cysx

[Silly]

To be honest quadding with a brave weapon isn't super hard. The super fast enemies that you don't naturally double are fragile enough that they usually just die to two attacks, so you don't need to quad. And Wyverns are naturally quite fast and can double pretty much every enemy that you actually need to quad to kill.

Also, Darting Blow is a thing that your Wyverns might have, since Pegasus -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord is probably the best general path for female fliers to go, and basically means that you will always double on player phase.

Gauntlets are mostly good in the earlier half of the game when doubling is still tricky due to being weighed down by everything. They tend to fall off later on compared to other weapons.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Silly

[Dark Holy Elf]

We really need a list of where you get all the batallions/gambits, I feel like I missed a lot of the good ones. 😕

I dunno that I agree with quadding with gauntlets being excessively easier. Falconknights have an even easier time, I think... they're +3 speed on War Master, and the path to them includes Darting Blow, so it's +9 speed. That should overpower any weight difference.

[Silly]

Just now, Dark Holy Elf said:

I dunno that I agree with quadding with gauntlets being excessively easier. Falconknights have an even easier time, I think... they're +3 speed on War Master, and the path to them includes Darting Blow, so it's +9 speed. That should overpower any weight difference.

You can also just have Darting Blow on a Wyvern.

Pegasus Knight is a perfectly acceptable intermediate class for female fliers who want to end up in Wyvern (such as Edelgard, Hilda, Petra, etc.). It's a much more mobile class than Brigand, has an equally good master skill, lets you start training your flying rank earlier, and doesn't have any wasted weapon exp since Lance C is a requirement for Wyvern Lord anyways.

[Cysx]

9 minutes ago, Silly said:

To be honest quadding with a brave weapon isn't super hard. The super fast enemies that you don't naturally double are fragile enough that they usually just die to two attacks. And Wyverns are naturally quite fast and can double pretty much every enemy that you actually need to quad to kill.

Also, Darting Blow is a thing that your Wyverns might have, since Pegasus -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord is probably the best general path for female fliers to go, and basically means that you will always double on player phase.

Brave weapons are better with death blow because their purpose is to kill before counter. They also tend to be a bad choice against fast units because of shaky accuracy, but that's beside the point. From my experience, quadding doesn't happen naturally in that many cases(darting blow aside, indeed). With gauntlets, it does. That's the main point.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Cysx

[Burklight]

Just now, Cysx said:

Brave weapons are better with death blow because their purpose is to kill before counter. They also tend to be a bad choice against fast units because of shaky accuracy, but that's beside the point. From my experience, quadding doesn't happen naturally in that many cases. With gauntlets, it does. That's the main point.

Gauntlets are an excellent choice against fast units with crappy defense because they are quite accurate, and the fact that they have no might doesn't matter against fast units with crappy defense.

[Flere210]

Also, you can't exactly spam brave weaponsas much as gaubtkets. And you need high axe anyway for war master, so you will have you hand axes and hammers as well.

[Cysx]

17 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

We really need a list of where you get all the batallions/gambits, I feel like I missed a lot of the good ones. 😕

Actually I took it for granted because I always had one, but it's the Retribution gambit, and may not be available freely on GD? Maybe?(Blue Lions get an D rank one though it seems? Why do they get the best battalions?). Indech Sword fighters is the battalion I got it from on that run.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Cysx

[Burklight]

2 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Actually I took it for granted because I always had one, but it's the Retribution gambit, and it's not buyable on GD(Blue Lions get an D rank one though it seems? Why do they get the best battalions?). Indech Sword fighters is the one I got on GD, but I don't remember where...

IIRC, you get Indech Sword Fighters from the "Oil and Water" paralogue.

[Silly]

Retribution comes on: BL D rank battalion, BE A rank battalion, all routes A rank battalion (also can be obtained for free in Manuela + Hanneman paralogue)

Stride comes on: All routes E rank battalion, BL D rank battalion, all routes B rank battalion (not buyable, requires Sylvain paralogue)

 

[TrueNoble]

Just now, Garlyle said:

Lorenz - Lorenz is slow, and that's his biggest problem. He could be a strong mage, but not strong enough to kill his enemies in a single hit. It's tempting to train him as a cavalry unit, and wihle Frozen Lance is very nice, it'd just leave him in a spot where enemies will double him. He can become somewhat useful once he become a mounted mage knight, but besides getting the Thrysus, I'd not recommend using him.

I did also give Lysithea the wand at first, but I would actually argue that Lorenz makes for a much better user of it in the long run.

I know it's long, but I hope some will take the time to read, and perhaps consider this precious mushroom-head guy in a whole new light. ❤️

To start off with, a quick review of Lorenz's most clear advantages over Lysithea, as I see them. They are his smoother progression into Dark Knight, higher defensive stats across the board, and I would submit, perhaps most important of all, his access to Lifetaker from the Dark Bishop class. With a build like my current one: Thyrsus, Black Magic Range +1, Reason Prowess, Defensive Tactics, and Fiendish Blow, altogether he becomes a versatile, decently durable, mobile, comfortably self-sustaining front line unit.

Now, then! Here is my  hot take on why he should get the staff in the long run:

• A Lysithea with Thrysus sits in the back line and plucks off a distant enemy with it every player phase, as even if she had the range of a Dark Knight, she's likely still far too squishy especially in later maps to act as a front line. So, barring some crazy ability on her like idk Vantage, one can consider all spaces on the map where she would be attacked by multiple enemies in later maps off-limits when you're picking where to Canto to, which...makes that added mobility a bit questionable as to its worth.
• On the other hand, Lorenz gets a lot of HP. It surprised me as I was playing through, really. His DEF too, while not the best, is noticeably higher than Lysithea's, and he has a fantastic RES, which is also significantly higher than Lysithea's own and becomes more and more valuable for front line units as the game progresses. His speed, while a tad low (same growth as Edelgard, 1 less base value), isn't so low that he gets doubled by common enemies as the game progresses. and moreoften gets the doubles himself. Lorenz can and does take multiple hits during enemy phase, with some hits being reduced by the staff's effect from time to time, counters even max range Bow Knights, then likely plucks something off at a distance during player phase for a Lifetaker heal. Then, from there, has the option to canto onward, maintaining your party's forward momentum. In this example, one can see that Lorenz makes full use of all the benefits of the staff, while also giving the player better forward momentum than Lysithea would even if they went through the extra trouble of making her a Dark Knight over a Gremory.

Lysithea's a great unit, but Lorenz was designed to be much easier to make into a Dark Knight than her for a reason, I think. The extra investment of two Dark Seals to achieve Lifetaker might be off-putting to some, but it's far better to progress him as a caster anyway, and it's not like Lysithea would mind allowing him to get some hits in for Reason exp in her stead, thanks to her trait. His abilities, particularly Lifetaker, are what really gives him an edge, which obviously will involve some extra grinding + repeat playthroughs, but the game is designed with all that taken into account what with the presence of Knowledge Orbs, grind maps and New Game +, so it's not something I would hold against him or any unit within the context of Three Houses, unless we're talking, like, actual speed runs. I would even be so brazen as to say Lorenz's impact as an individual unit scales throughout multiple playthroughs far better than Lysithea's, with this particular build. My main concern is that harder hitting foes with higher crit compounded with his lowish Luck might screw him over in harder difficulties, but we'll have to see...

Anyway, there are dodge tanks and then there are tank tanks. With Lifetaker, Lorenz is something of a drain tank.

(Just be sure to level him as a caster--NOT as a cavalry--until he becomes a Dark Knight.)

[magnetic_cactus]

6 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

I just made an account to say I agree wholeheartedly. I also cannot comprehend why someone would give up Lancefaire, at least in the midgame, on a unit with a lance-only double lion when it represents ten frontloaded damage by itself. 

I’m obviously a new poster, but I’ve been playing FE regularly since FE7. Honestly, I disagree with a lot of what I’m seeing in this thread. There seems to be insane amounts of tunnel vision on fliers and mages with high mag/speed and very specific criteria for their spell list. 

The game is balanced a lot better than that. War Master gives +5 damage and 20 crit on a weapon type that inherently has the brave property. Its damage potential is way higher than I’m used to from fire emblems over the last decade, and it’s not even really being considered because it has two less move and no canto in a game where you have multiple shots of stride per map? Has anyone even tried a war master Felix with his relic?

Back to your point, I think Ferdinand is an insane unit. He has two relics that regen his HP, which synergizes with his passive. His evasion and mitigation are alright in isolation, but having both is worth more than the sum of either alone, and he ends up being quite tanky in a nonobvious way. On top of all of that, he gets swift strike, usually before part 2, which alone means his offense is superb (brave effect but able to use weapons with extra might, and the art itself even gives some might!), and he only needs to worry about speed enough to make sure he doesn’t get doubled. 

I love the discussion in this thread, but I really think a lot of people need to break away from the preconceived notion that everyone needs to be a wyvern lord/bow knight and take a look at certain units with a more open mind. This game has plenty of other stuff that would have been outright broken in any other entry in the series. I see a lot of value in and have had success with plenty of units and classes that are being overlooked here. 

This is quite honestly one of the better posts in this thread. I touched a little on this back in my post a page or two ago, but to re-iterate, I strongly agree with the statement that this thread ignores or at least understates a lot of extremely powerful but non-obvious things in favor of flyer mobility, warp and Str/Mag/Spd growths (which are, cross unit, often within +/- 10 of one another anyway, with only a few notable exceptions):

• Certain Semi-unique Combat Arts, e.g. Swift Strikes (Ferdinand, Sylvain, Seteth), Point-Blank Volley (Leonie, Cyril), Hunter's Volley (Snipers), Enclosure (Bernadetta, Claude), etc. To put this into context with a concrete example, lots of folks love talking about how bad Cyril is because, among other things, he effectively lacks a personal skill, but then in the same breath class Leonie in A-tier. To me, Leonie and Cyril are basically the same unit - very similar growth rates, very similar favored skills, and the only two units with Point-Blank Volley. People will cite that Cyril requires "investment," but all units do (investment, i.e. tutoring, is literally the the game's core conceit), and Cyril can be obtained reasonably early enough that it's a non-issue within a chapter or two. If a "missing" personal is that damning, then Felix should be something of a C-rank Petra knock-off, his personal being borderline useless after D/C rank battalions come online. 
• Avoidance. This is being rectified to a degree as the thread matures, but I still think avoidance is not properly taken into account when tiering units.
• Assassin. This class is HUGELY underrated. On top of excellent growths, it has bonus move and ignores terrain-based movement impairment (not stated in its class skills), built in Swordfaire and Bow proficiency. Lethality isn't insane but it's essentially an alternate crit roll. More than any other Advanced Class, I'd argue that it's a Master Class in disguise, and it is just as effective on units like Petra as Wyvern Lord (and a lot more fun to use, frankly) once you slot in a Cursed Akishaya Sword+ and, if truly desired, March Ring. Locktouch utility is also nice, albeit just a QOL thing and not a true tiering concern, I suppose.
• War Master. Quick Riposte is busted (to the point that there was a separate thread discussing whether it's bugged). +20 crit is busted. Bonus move. Considering how much people love axes, how this isn't even considered as a viable final class candidate for certain male characters (other than maybe Dedue or Raph) is absolutely beyond me. 

Two illustrate some of the above, Ferdinand serves as a great case study. In my eyes, Ferdinand is an extremely powerful unit given his innate Hit and Avo and the fact he gets Swift Strikes (and of course has good bases/growths and slots easily into basically any of the good offensive classes, plus the gear points raised by the poster I quoted), but I've seen a ton of people stick him around B-tier, ostensibly because he doesn't "stand out" in the obvious ways that, say, Lysithea (Dark Spikes, high Mag/Spd) does.  

Edited August 21, 2019 by magnetic_cactus

[leesangstar10]

1 hour ago, TrueNoble said:

To start off with, a quick review of Lorenz's most clear advantages over Lysithea, as I see them. They are his smoother progression into Dark Knight, higher defensive stats across the board, and I would submit, perhaps most important of all, his access to Lifetaker from the Dark Bishop class. With a build like my current one: Thyrsus, Black Magic Range +1, Reason Prowess, Defensive Tactics, and Fiendish Blow, altogether he becomes a versatile, decently durable, mobile, comfortably self-sustaining front line unit.

I do agree that Lorenz is underrated imo since he doesn't have a movement problem as much as other mages; however, he is still strictly worse than Lysithea. Let me break down the advantages listed.

Smoother progression: Yeah it is smoother but her path to dark knight isn't that bad thou. She doesn't have to really worry about leveling up her reason spell rank due to her personal skill, so you can just set her goals to be riding and lances(C in lances is pretty easy despite being bad at it). As long as you start doing this early, by the time you get to master class, she will be ready to at least reach the minimum requirement. 

Defensive stats: Not an advantage you would want to have as a mage. They should never be in the front line and pretty much kill only on player phase. Additionally, his shaky spd growth could hinder his defense(spd is both an offensive and defensive stat helps you not get doubled)

Lifetaker is a pretty niche skill. You can just use nosferato if you need her to recover health(not to mention she has the stats to kill with it too). Also use healers, that is what they are for. (Not to mention you kinda need Lysithea to defeat the death knight to get those seals). Additionally, you need to be able to kill the enemy to recover hp. He doesn't reliably one shot enemies since his spd and mag are all meh. 

Now I am going to list the advantages she has over Lorenz, which heavily out weighs the advantages he has.

Spell list: Great reason and faith spells. She is literally the most reliable way to kill the death knight and for upcoming difficulties it is going to be super important since he moves. She also gets warp, which is an extremely valuable skill that she can get at B. Making her very versatile early to mid game. She can be an offensive nuke or a support unlike Lorenz who's best faith skill is recover. 

Growths: Statistically Lysithea has greater offense(60%mag and 50% spd vs 40%mag and 40% spd) and her growths are more specialized unlike Lorenz's average growths across the board. Yes Lorenz has better bulk, but mages should never be in the front line, they don't even have the move to go to the front line. If you are playing optimally, the extra bulk is not going to matter (maybe some cases) up until end game where you can promote to master class. Once you do reach that point, there's gonna be like 4 chapters left. Also Lorenz's growths are very shaky. He can easily get speed screwed and become pretty bad vs Lysithea who even if she gets speed screwed, she can usually one shot enemies. 

Here are two main and very important advantages she has over Lorenz. Like I said I also think Lorenz is underrated, but truth be told, he is strictly worse. The game right now is easy enough so you can use any unit you want so if you like Lorenz so much go ahead. Also this is kind of an unspoken rule, but we are not talking about NG+. You build doesn't seem reasonable to achieve in a regular play through.

 

[leesangstar10]

47 minutes ago, magnetic_cactus said:

War Master. Quick Riposte is busted (to the point that there was a separate thread discussing whether it's bugged). +20 crit is busted. Bonus move. Considering how much people love axes, how this isn't even considered as a viable final class candidate for certain male characters (other than maybe Dedue or Raph) is absolutely beyond me. 

It's because wyvern lord is strictly a superior class. Quick riposte is busted I do agree, but we kinda ignore skills you get from Master classes because that is so late game. You would only use it for at most 3 chapters. We assume optimal play and grinding exp to get Quick riposte isn't very optimal. Fist flair is garbage and +20 crit is decent, but canto and having +2 more move is much better(not to mention they get +10 avoid on top of that).

Edited August 21, 2019 by leesangstar10

[leesangstar10]

5 hours ago, Burklight said:

Gauntlets are an excellent choice against fast units with crappy defense because they are quite accurate, and the fact that they have no might doesn't matter against fast units with crappy defense.

If they have crappy defense, why don't you just use a combat art to one shot them?

[Silly]

 

26 minutes ago, magnetic_cactus said:

This is quite honestly one of the better posts in this thread. I touched a little on this back in my post a page or two ago, but to re-iterate, I strongly agree with the statement that this thread ignores or at least understates a lot of extremely powerful but non-obvious things in favor of flyer mobility, warp and Str/Mag/Spd growths (which are, cross unit, often within +/- 10 of one another anyway, with only a few notable exceptions):

• Certain Semi-unique Combat Arts, e.g. Swift Strikes (Ferdinand, Sylvain, Seteth), Point-Blank Volley (Leonie, Cyril), Hunter's Volley (Snipers), Enclosure (Bernadetta, Claude), etc. To put this into context with a concrete example, lots of folks love talking about how bad Cyril is because, among other things, he effectively lacks a personal skill, but then in the same breath class Leonie in A-tier. To me, Leonie and Cyril are basically the same unit - very similar growth rates, very similar favored skills, and the only two units with Point-Blank Volley. People will cite that Cyril requires "investment," but all units do (investment, i.e. tutoring, is literally the the game's core conceit), and Cyril can be obtained reasonably early enough that it's a non-issue within a chapter or two. If a "missing" personal is that damning, then Felix should be something of a C-rank Petra knock-off, his personal being borderline useless after D/C rank battalions come online. 
• Avoidance. This is being rectified to a degree as the thread matures, but I still think avoidance is not properly taken into account when tiering units.
• Assassin. This class is HUGELY underrated. On top of excellent growths, it has bonus move and ignores terrain-based movement impairment (not stated in its class skills), built in Swordfaire and Bow proficiency. Lethality isn't insane but it's essentially an alternate crit roll. More than any other Advanced Class, I'd argue that it's a Master Class in disguise, and it is just as effective on units like Petra as Wyvern Lord (and a lot more fun to use, frankly) once you slot in a Cursed Akishaya Sword+ and, if truly desired, March Ring. Locktouch utility is also nice, albeit just a QOL thing and not a true tiering concern, I suppose.
• War Master. Quick Riposte is busted (to the point that there was a separate thread discussing whether it's bugged). +20 crit is busted. Bonus move. Considering how much people love axes, how this isn't even considered as a viable final class candidate for certain male characters (other than maybe Dedue or Raph) is absolutely beyond me. 

Two illustrate some of the above, Ferdinand serves as a great case study. In my eyes, Ferdinand is an extremely powerful unit given his innate Hit and Avo and the fact he gets Swift Strikes (and of course has good bases/growths and slots easily into basically any of the good offensive classes, plus the gear points raised by the poster I quoted), but I've seen a ton of people stick him around B-tier, ostensibly because he doesn't "stand out" in the obvious ways that, say, Lysithea (Dark Spikes, high Mag/Spd) does.  

This point has been brought up many times, and this is the point that I will raise to many of your thoughts.

6 hours ago, Silly said:

Here is a question, if the majority of classes are equally as good at killing enemies, why pick the one with 6 move when you can pick the one with 8 move? Getting a crit for 120 damage or whatever as a War Master doesn't really make much of a difference. The enemy is still dead regardless of whether you hit them for 100% of their HP or 200%.

It's not that the other option is unusable. It still kills enemies dead. It's just that in the context of an actual tier list the option with more mobility is clearly better, so it has a higher rank.

Being low tier in this game isn't such a bad thing, because there aren't really any truly unusable things (with the exception of maybe some weird stuff that nobody would actually do). But something has to be the worst.

The fact of the matter is that many of the things in this game that seem cool are superfluous. People like hitting for big numbers but many people who praise those big numbers do not question whether they are actually necessary. The (maybe unfortunate) fact of this game is that the statistical benchmarks required to perform well are not particularly high.

Here is a brief overview of your points:

• Exclusive combat arts are not particularly important. They are nice bonuses but certainly not enough to dramatically shift the quality of a character. Here is a more detailed post:

7 hours ago, Silly said:

I don't think that skill is very good. It's helpful but very unnecessary.

It requires Lance A, which is a non-negligible investment given that the "optimal" class for all three of those units is Wyvern, which only needs Lance C. That extra tutoring could be put into something like authority instead. It also requires you to actually use a lance, which means you instantly lose out on ~6 attack (due to no axefaire and the difference in might between lances and axes).

Swift Strike is only active on player phase. It does not improve enemy phase combat at all. Player phase combat already has significantly easier thresholds to meet compared with enemy phase combat, since you have access to other combat arts, Death Blow, and Brave weaponry.

Overall I just think that skill doesn't really make that much of a difference. It's nice to have and might be situationally useful, but its impact on the overall viability of the unit is not significant enough for me to change my opinion of the character significantly.

With that being said, Cyril is a fairly decent unit. He's not as good as Leonie, who has pretty good bases relative to her join time and more access to teaching (which means higher weapon ranks earlier on), but he is a solid performer. I personally rate him as either the low end of high tier or the high end of mid tier. 

• Dodgetanking is a valid build. It is not as bad as some people are claiming, but also not as good as others are claiming it to be. Its biggest flaw is that it requires stacking a lot of avoid before it becomes pretty reliable, and the tools for that are in limited supply. As a result, you can usually have maybe two units max on your team as dedicated dodge tanks.  If you already have Ferdinand and Byleth as dodgetanks, for example, well what about the third and the fourth unit? Where are you going to get extra high avoid battalions (which are very limited for fliers), extra evasion rings, and extra adjutant slots? The other 8+ units are going to have to suck it up and actually have real defenses.
• Assassin is probably the best swordfaire class. However, you are out of your mind if you think that it is comparable to Wyvern Lord. For your specific points: bow proficiency really means nothing on the class, as it does not have bow range or bowfaire abilities. Gaining extra bow exp at this point is pretty meaningless at this stage, as you will probably be using swords a lot (due to swordfaire) and assassin is already an endgame class, meaning you do not really need extra bow ranks to certify into anything. 6 movement is nice, but you're literally comparing assassin to the most mobile class in the game. You claim the assassin's +1 move over other foot units in advanced tier is nice, but Wyvern Lord has +2 move over assassin, and not only does it ignore terrain penalties like assassin does, it can just straight up fly over otherwise impassable terrain like walls, something that assassin cannot do. You also claim that the March Ring gives the assassin more mobility, but that applies to all units. In fact, the March Ring is actually more beneficial to fliers than any other unit, as fliers are not hindered by any sort of terrain features (including walls) and have canto, meaning they will be able to use the extra movement point most effectively in most situations. Assassin is the best choice if you want an endgame class that uses swords (aka has swordfaire), but it is certainly not the best choice if you're looking for the most effective class in general. Locktouch is a nice touch but chest keys are buyable in infinite quantities, so it's not a huge deal. Especially on Byleth, as he/she basically has innate locktouch due to having access to the convoy.
• War Master is not considered an optimal final class because it is mostly an endgame class for males with an axe proficiency, meaning it competes directly with Wyvern Lord on most viable candidates. And it just so happens that Wyvern Lord is really, really busted. As I stated in an above quote, you don't need the higher strength of War Master or its extra crit to actually kill enemies. You again claim the War Master's 6 move as a strength here, but again, Wyvern Lord has 8 movement and flies, meaning it ignores walls and takes no terrain penalties. If you have two units that both ORKO most enemies, except one has 6 move and is footlocked and the other has 8 movement, flying mobility, and canto, well the unit with higher movement is going to accomplish more, as it is going to be more flexible in its positioning, accomplish side objectives more quickly, and just straight up be able to reach and deal with enemies in an easier fashion. Quick Riposte is a very strong skill, but it does not make up the ground between the two classes. First of all, master tier class mastery comes incredibly late. Without grinding, you will likely hit it in only the last few chapters on your more dedicated combat units. And on my BE playthrough I didn't hit master tier mastery on a SINGLE unit, because that route has less chapters than the other three and therefore less time to build mastery. In addition, think about what Quick Riposte does? It allows you to always double on enemy phase, and allows you to avoid getting doubled on enemy phase. What else does these things? Just simply having high speed.  Quick Riposte gets worse the faster you naturally are, since much of its effects you just get anyways by being fast. It would be a really good skill on an armored knight, and a really poor one on an assassin. Conveniently, Wyvern Lord happens to naturally be one of the fastest classes in the game (why they decided to make this class so fast is beyond me) with a massive 20 base speed and +4 speed bonus. Wyverns naturally reach doubling thresholds on all but the fastest enemies, and those enemies can usually be dealt with on player phase (since player phase combat has much more lenient thresholds than enemy phase combat), so most of the time they double the same enemies that War Master does with Quick Riposte.
• As for Ferdinand, he's probably high tier. He's not the best unit in the game but among the cast he has qualities that make him stand out from the majority of units. He should roughly be in the same tier as the other "has the qualities that make them one of the better performing wyvern riders" units, such as Sylvain and Hilda. I would personally place these units at solidly high tier. Not top tier, but since top tier contains so few units for me, being high tier still means that you are one of the best units in the game.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR:

There is a big difference between what is viable and what is optimal.

Very little in this game is not viable, outside of maybe stacking too many really dumb things onto the same team, like Bishop Raphael with his 15 Mag and 15 Spd growths. You can be a Swordmaster and still have fairly reasonable combat. You can be a Grappler. You can be a Fortress Knight.

However, there must be a distinction made between being viable and being optimal. Just because Assassin is a viable class does not make it optimal. Just because War Master is a viable class does not make it optimal. If the game contained an alternate class that was literally just Assassin but it had 7 move, it doesn't make the existing Assassin class any worse at clearing maps than it is now. However, it does make it a comparatively worse choice, because why promote into an assassin when you could promote into "basically assassin but better"?

It is very hard, and some would even say impossible, to achieve perfect balance. The fact of the matter is that some classes and units are simply going to be worse than others. In a ranked list, something has to be put at the bottom. (And classes like Assassin and War Master aren't even at the bottom, they're solid choices that are unfortunately not broken like the top tier choices are.) This is not an attack on a unit/class/whatever or a claim that the it is unusable. Because pretty much everything in this game is usable. It's just saying that it isn't as comparatively good as something else.

[leesangstar10]

^^props for writing that all out

[Hyper L]

Lunatic Mode (at least the one coded in the game) halves character EXP, meaning you will get even less use out of Master Classes if any at all.

So for those making Tier Lists I suggest evaluating the characters based on their performance up to and during Advanced Class.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Hyper L

[Silly]

Nobody knows what Lunatic mode actually is going to be like, considering the developers have not said any details and its not released yet.

Evaluating something based on what it may or may not do in Lunatic is a bit pointless.

Though to be fair, master tier class mastery is already unfeasibly difficult to hit on hard mode most of the time.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Silly

[magnetic_cactus]

52 minutes ago, Silly said:

A post

With only minor exception I'm not going to go line by line trying to refute your post, in part because frankly it would be unproductive (if you are at the point where you're willing to post something to the extent of what you did, you are likely not going to be swayed by anything I have to say). This of course isn't meant to imply that I'm merely dismissing what you wrote - generally speaking it's well thought-out and I agree with a lot of it. I just want to add a few things, more as clarification than anything else: 

1. On dodgetanking: You agree it's a valid build, great. Your primary argument against its consideration in tiering is the fact it can't be employed on every character simultaneously, however. I strongly disagree that mass application matters for purposes of what we're doing (if it were, you could not reasonably say any class or build is a good build, because it literally can't and probably shouldn't be applied simultaneously in a cookie-cutter fashion to 12 characters).
2. On assassins: You primarily argue that assassins aren't good because Wyvern Lords are better. That may be so, but this argument seems to contradict your later argument that part of why Warmasters are inferior to Wyvern Lords is the fact they simply don't get up to speed until too late. Assassins can be run from very early on in the game - far earlier than Wyvern Lords - and that's why I think this class, and a unit's compatibility with the class, should be considered for tiering purposes. I had thought my original post was clear enough on this but I apologize if not; in fact, part of why I elected to touch on this particular class was precisely to expose what seemed to me to mismatch between the heavy focus on "investment minimization" and the fact that many pre-Master classes were being mostly glossed over.
3. In general, I did not mean to imply that Wyvern Lords are bad, or not optimal, for many, if not most, characters. I think my post was misinterpreted. The core intent of my posting what I did was merely to highlight that I think there are many more items that should be considered - you have 10-12 characters to use on a map - and overcentralization of discussion on "does this character get Wyvern Lord" is a disservice to the game's balance as a result. I'm not saying that Wyvern Lord compatible character shouldn't be tiered higher or whatever, just that there are more things to consider and discuss. If you disagree with that and think the things I've suggested as potential items for said expanded discussion don't matter, that's your opinion and I'll respect it, but it isn't mine, and I think they should matter to the discussion. That's all.