So, I gave Sothe adept.

[Mufasa]

If you give Sothe an Adept (which I always do), he becomes quite usable for the final levels. Sothe has horrible stat caps (he capped everything except Def and Res for me at Lv. 15), but he can kill most any enemy with Baselard. And he's a heck of a lot better than the dragons. Plus, you get plenty of time throughout the game to train him.

But yes, Volke is much better and it sucks that Sothe is required for the final level. Lethality >>>>>>>>>Bane

This is a fair statement.

[Killer Poleax]

Actually I'ld pick a Trueblade, Marksman, or 2nd Reaver above any of them.

This. Knives are weak and there are much better units. I wouldn't use Sothe or Gareth. I'd also take Ena out if she wasn't forced. The only thing she has going for her is Blood Tide and your units should be strong enough anyways that they shouldn't need it (except against bosses). Volke's still cool though but I'd probably take someone else over him. I actually wouldn't take any of the characters forced into endgame (except Ike and a heron).

Edited November 24, 2008 by KSFF2150

[sangosan]

Sothe's growths are wtf compared to his stats. 60% strength with 28 cap? And his speed is meh (45% iirc) if you consider that his cap is 40. >_> And even if he caps everything, he still sucks because bane is the worst mastery skill ever and always activates when you do -not- need it. For example, if the enemy has only 1 HP left anyway. >_>

Gareth > Sothe because Gareth has Blood Tide.

[Florete]

*Hasn't read the topic*

That does it, Lyle. Me Sothe, you someone else, let's get this debate on. I'm sick and tired of your hatred for Sothe when I have time and time again thrown back the same points you continue to bring up.

Who do you want? Gareth? Volke? Heather? Ena? Any one of them. Sothe > all 4.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Florete]

Chew on this, Lyle

No! Fuck that! At least Gareth can kill shit!

*Grumbles. Lights Sothe on fire.*

If he can hit, he still can't kill because he won't double. Then he'll be countered, doubled, and killed.

I don't care. The fact is, he sucks. his limitations aren't over compensated for his good points IMO. And Baselard's ability goes to waste on him. Volke is a much better choice, but it's not like you even have a choice. Which makes me hate him even more.

He does not suck. How many times must I tell you this?

-Sothe does NOT have the ability to kill stuff. That's my whole reason for hating him. He's got one of the worst STR caps in the game, and people rely on skills and support for him to kill stuff. Which does not make for a good unit. I can give wrath and resolve to Gareth, and he can still take on a shitload of dudes. That doesn't make him good.

-Bane is a big ol waste of time, and for Sothe it barely activates, and when it does, it's always after he attacked, so he STILL can't kill shit, even after he activates his best skill. Leathiality is way better, and it's imposible to argue otherwise.

-At the endgame, there isn't much to steal, and the only chest is the one that holds Matrona. Which I could simply use one of the many chest keys that I have in my storage, to make up for it. So, there's no credibility as to why he's needed in the endgame for that.

-And the dragons aren't perfect, far from it. And I'd kick out Sothe for someone like Zihark, Volke, etc, anyday. But I have to take Sothe, and the only other option is Either Gareth or Ena. So I pick one of them. And I pick Gareth, to add insult to injury.

-Yes he does. Not as well as others, obviously, but he can do it to lower defense enemies and he works well with Parity also. Gareth isn't taking on anything, no matter what.

-Bane is pretty bad, but it's actually rather good for the class. Obviously not as good as Lethality, but he's better with Bane than something like Astra against an enemy he wouldn't even kill in five hits, like the generals in endgame.

-Alright. Hardly a point against him.

-Sothe > Ena >>>>>> Gareth

No it's not subjective.

Volke has a built in 25% crit rate. Baselard adds 15%. And Volke has high skill. So I give him gamble. With the combination of all that, it has happened on several occassions, when Volke has a 100% hit rate, and a 100% crit rate.

With Sothe, all he has to add to his crit is the bond with Micaiah. Which he may not always be around the chick. (As much as the whinny character wants to be.) So Baselard's boost goes to waste on him. And he has a much lower attack than Volke. So the dagger is fine, but the wielder sucks.

For endgame, Volke > Sothe. Thing is, that's all Volke has; the easiest part of the game.

Hm. True. You guys have got me there. Sothe is invaluable in Part 1. And it's probably impossible to get through without him.

But wait....

Great unit at the beginning....

Lousy unit at the end....

SOTHE'S A JEIGAN!

He's not lousy at the end, he's decent, and he's great up until then. He is the Jeigan, though. And you admit he's invaluable in part 1, so how the fuck can you say he sucks?

He can accomplish the same thing Gareth can. Gareth may not always hit, but when he does hit, he kills. Sothe can't kill, and there's nothing worthwhile to steal. He's a useless utility.

Let's be completely honest here. If Sothe were an optional character. Would you pick him over Volke? Volke is clearly more deadly and is superior in battle prowess. The differece between them is clear enough in thier master skills. Volke will kill anything instantly, and Sothe will weaken the enemy, but can't finish them off in one turn.

You'd have to be an idiot to pick Sothe over Volke, or you'd have to have a severe attachement to him. (Which is pretty much saying the same thing.)

Gareth can't accomplish anything except showing you his death quote.

Already stated. For endgame, Sothe < Volke. But endgame is not the whole game.

Healin is overrated in a game where Vulneries have ten uses and heal 20 Damage.

Wrong. Even if vulneraries had infinite use and healed all the way, healers would still be nice to have so the other character can do something else on that turn. Not as nice, but still nice. It's also free experience.

Sothe's growths are wtf compared to his stats. 60% strength with 28 cap? And his speed is meh (45% iirc) if you consider that his cap is 40. >_> And even if he caps everything, he still sucks because bane is the worst mastery skill ever and always activates when you do -not- need it. For example, if the enemy has only 1 HP left anyway. >_>

Gareth > Sothe because Gareth has Blood Tide.

Bane does not activate if a normal attack would kill the enemy. And Gareth competes with Lyre for the worst character in the game. Sothe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gareth.

[CGV]

^Yeah, she's got a point Lyle...

[Knife]

Here comes the fire...

[CGV]

Here comes the fire...

*gets popcorn* want some?

[Knife]

Sure bro. Are you sure this isn't spam?

[Oguma]

Here comes the fire...

We didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the worlds been turning....

Lyle is gonna get owned.

[Mufasa]

Chew on this, Lyle

If he can hit, he still can't kill because he won't double. Then he'll be countered, doubled, and killed.

I'm not saying that Gareth is good. But I'm fed up with Sothe, and it's either Gareth or Ena. And I'll probably switch to Ena eventually/

He does not suck. How many times must I tell you this?

It's a matter of opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure, as they say.

-Yes he does. Not as well as others, obviously, but he can do it to lower defense enemies and he works well with Parity also. Gareth isn't taking on anything, no matter what.

I've never given Sothe parity, but again, you can give any unit certain skills and they'd be great. I can give Gareth wrath, resolve, and adept, and he'd probably be rocking everything in sight. That doesn't make him a good unit. And I haven't used Gareth enough to really argue for or against him. Which is another reason why I want to use him over Sothe.

-Bane is pretty bad, but it's actually rather good for the class. Obviously not as good as Lethality, but he's better with Bane than something like Astra against an enemy he wouldn't even kill in five hits, like the generals in endgame.

If Sothe had higher str, and astra, he could probably kill those units. Whenever my swordmasters activate astra, it usually means certain death for an enemy.

For endgame, Volke > Sothe. Thing is, that's all Volke has; the easiest part of the game.

He's not lousy at the end, he's decent, and he's great up until then. He is the Jeigan, though. And you admit he's invaluable in part 1, so how the fuck can you say he sucks?

Gareth can't accomplish anything except showing you his death quote.

Already stated. For endgame, Sothe < Volke. But endgame is not the whole game.

Wrong. Even if vulneraries had infinite use and healed all the way, healers would still be nice to have so the other character can do something else on that turn. Not as nice, but still nice. It's also free experience.

Bane does not activate if a normal attack would kill the enemy. And Gareth competes with Lyre for the worst character in the game. Sothe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gareth.

-It's the easiest part of the game, and still Sothe barely manages to kill anything. If he even does kill something.

-Gareth has blood tide. It's not enough to make up for his flaws, but he serves well as a utility.

-Sothe is good for the first part of the game. In the third part, it will start to show that other units are much better than him, and by part 4 he will be completely over shadowed. People yell and hate the regular jeigans. A lot of people hate on Marcus. That's what I'm doing here. Sothe could easily be an optional unit. And that would allow for me to take a seperate unit who can be more useful for the endgame. If he wasn't forced to the endgame, I'd have no quarrel with him. But he is. So I hate him for it. I hate him enough to bench him for a crappy dragon, who's likely to die. I usually end up having Sothe sit in the back of the level, since he can't do much to help anyway.

[Florete]

Let's take this to the debate boards Lyle. One last thing; being forced is not a point for or against a unit. If either one, it would be for because it means that unit is more likely to be used.

Pick your defense and let's rock.

[Knife]

I already called my debate on Lyle. But he said he didn't have time or something.

[Mufasa]

Let's take this to the debate boards Lyle. One last thing; being forced is not a point for or against a unit. If either one, it would be for because it means that unit is more likely to be used.

Pick your defense and let's rock.

I don't really have the time Fox. Sorry. I've got two projects that are due, one today, and one tommorow, neither of which I could do.

I probably won't outlive the week.

[Florete]

I already called my debate on Lyle. But he said he didn't have time or something.

I don't really have the time Fox. Sorry. I've got two projects that are due, one today, and one tommorow, neither of which I could do.

I probably won't outlive the week.

Damn. I'll just have to leave you with this:

I've never given Sothe parity, but again, you can give any unit certain skills and they'd be great. I can give Gareth wrath, resolve, and adept, and he'd probably be rocking everything in sight. That doesn't make him a good unit. And I haven't used Gareth enough to really argue for or against him. Which is another reason why I want to use him over Sothe.

If Sothe had higher str, and astra, he could probably kill those units. Whenever my swordmasters activate astra, it usually means certain death for an enemy.

-It's the easiest part of the game, and still Sothe barely manages to kill anything. If he even does kill something.

-Gareth has blood tide. It's not enough to make up for his flaws, but he serves well as a utility.

-Sothe is good for the first part of the game. In the third part, it will start to show that other units are much better than him, and by part 4 he will be completely over shadowed. People yell and hate the regular jeigans. A lot of people hate on Marcus. That's what I'm doing here. Sothe could easily be an optional unit. And that would allow for me to take a seperate unit who can be more useful for the endgame. If he wasn't forced to the endgame, I'd have no quarrel with him. But he is. So I hate him for it. I hate him enough to bench him for a crappy dragon, who's likely to die. I usually end up having Sothe sit in the back of the level, since he can't do much to help anyway.

Sothe works better with Parity than almost anyone else, since they don't need it or make better use of other skills. You give Gareth those skills and you can say goodbye to a few good skills; he's still dying.

Sothe can one-round any spirit in endgame 4 and 5 as long as they aren't on a defense tile. For those on defense tiles, you equipped Parity; he's still one-rounding. He also one rounds any magic user in E-1 and E-2, some of the Swordmasters and Snipers, and murders dragons with Beastfoe. Sothe is not a Swordmaster either. Take what you get.

-Disproven above

-No he doesn't. Blood Tide is rather pointless, and Ena serves that purpose anyway should it be wanted. A dead utility isn't helping a thing.

-Sothe is still one of the better units in part 3. He likely has a level lead and he dodges a lot. Then he has Beastkillers for enemy laguz and supports your lord. That's good. By part 4, he's only average, not bad. The rest of that is all a matter of total opinion.

[Mufasa]

Damn. I'll just have to leave you with this:

Sothe works better with Parity than almost anyone else, since they don't need it or make better use of other skills. You give Gareth those skills and you can say goodbye to a few good skills; he's still dying.

Sothe can one-round any spirit in endgame 4 and 5 as long as they aren't on a defense tile. For those on defense tiles, you equipped Parity; he's still one-rounding. He also one rounds any magic user in E-1 and E-2, some of the Swordmasters and Snipers, and murders dragons with Beastfoe. Sothe is not a Swordmaster either. Take what you get.

-Disproven above

-No he doesn't. Blood Tide is rather pointless, and Ena serves that purpose anyway should it be wanted. A dead utility isn't helping a thing.

-Sothe is still one of the better units in part 3. He likely has a level lead and he dodges a lot. Then he has Beastkillers for enemy laguz and supports your lord. That's good. By part 4, he's only average, not bad. The rest of that is all a matter of total opinion.

Most of what you said is opinion as well. Pretty much all except the defense tile and the spirits. Which parity may work well with Sothe. But when there are other units who wouldn't need parity to kill the spirits on the defense tile, sitting back at the enterance to the tower, it's hard for me to appreciate Sothe.

[Florete]

Most of what you said is opinion as well. Pretty much all except the defense tile and the spirits. Which parity may work well with Sothe. But when there are other units who wouldn't need parity to kill the spirits on the defense tile, sitting back at the enterance to the tower, it's hard for me to appreciate Sothe.

How is giving straight facts about what Sothe can do an opinion?

[Killer Poleax]

Damn. I'll just have to leave you with this:

Sothe works better with Parity than almost anyone else, since they don't need it or make better use of other skills. You give Gareth those skills and you can say goodbye to a few good skills; he's still dying.

Sothe can one-round any spirit in endgame 4 and 5 as long as they aren't on a defense tile. For those on defense tiles, you equipped Parity; he's still one-rounding. He also one rounds any magic user in E-1 and E-2, some of the Swordmasters and Snipers, and murders dragons with Beastfoe. Sothe is not a Swordmaster either. Take what you get.

Hmm, I gotta try that when I get to endgame. He turned out good for me once but I usually just have him on the field supporting Micaiah and doing nothing or I just bench him. Yeah, I share Lyle's opinion about Sothe but you have some good points. If it were up to me, I wouldn't take anyone forced into endgame except Ike.

[CT075]

Gareth is too crappy to bench Sothe for him. Sothe at least can hit something. Although I admit that he is kinda useless unless he activates Bane which rarely happens.