Minimodding

[lolDeath]

I don't think "our staff is big" is as important as "our members break a lot of rules".

I DO think there should be a rule about saying, "this topic needs to be closed," either limit it, or eliminate it. Once ONE person says it, there is a barrage of people quoting that ONE post. Once is enough, if needed at all. I also think we should LIMIT how many people say a topic is off topic, as the same thing happens with that...

So.. only let one person do it per thread and make a rule against that as opposed to just not having it done? Could you rephrase this? It's making no sense to me. /630am

Edited November 25, 2008 by Death

[Crystal Shards]

I actually don't see it as all that relevant. The problems exist, but I have been explained that staff members on the internet these days need some kind of transition period.. but hey, I have time, we'll see where it goes. Though all the same, I should have dug.

As far as the actual rule goes, I am with Sothe/Matt/Blue Furry. If you create it as a rule you can actually deal with members who become problematic, as opposed to just limiting your available opinions. You don't have to warn everyone who does it.

btw I laughed my ass off at the "internet is not serious business" rule. I just wanted to share that.

Now you're the one not making sense. You said you became active less than 10 days ago "so how should you know." I just said if you read the announcements forum you'd know, since that's generally a good idea to do if you are new or haven't been around for a while.

Cynthia:

I have NEVER heard of/seen modbaiting in the 8 years I've been on message boards. And it shouldn't be a privilege to be an idiot, so I can't say I agree with you there. I feel like I'm constantly repeating myself on this damn board: I'm not saying warn the people who say stuff like, "Back on topic: [insert relevant information]." I'm talking about the morons who are like, "lol topic is offtopic" and shit, which isn't helpful at all. And yes, it has come up a lot; I'm the one reporting a lot of those posts because essentially they're spam.

If the members on this board were more mature, then there wouldn't be a need for so many staff members. I am probably going to get flamed for that but it's true. On my website we have me and one moderator, and two roleplaying moderators that don't have any power outside of their forums. We get along fine, because people don't post shit like, "This thread needs to be aborted, who has a hanger?" in the Abortion thread. Unacceptable.

My whole point was that threads CAN get slightly off-topic as long as the discussion is still useful. If someone decides to talk about a specific part of a thread and it goes off a little bit, that's okay. We don't need a member going, "lol offtopic" or whatever the hell it's cool to say these days and then three other members joining them in their stupid quest to get the topic closed. If it's THAT off-topic, then the topic can get split or closed, and that's a mod's decision, not yours.

[lolDeath]

Now you're the one not making sense. You said you became active less than 10 days ago "so how should you know." I just said if you read the announcements forum you'd know, since that's generally a good idea to do if you are new or haven't been around for a while.

The things I am talking about are actions, not words. I see "we will be more strict [generalization]" but I have not seen it done yet. Now that I have been told that there are two staff members who are settling into their role I see that things may change. Basically I saw a large staff and things not being done as they should according to what I read of the rules here, and I had never heard of someone being hired and waiting any amount of time to start their job. It's something new to me so I overlooked it, won't happen again.

You have never seen modbaiting before? It's almost the pinnacle of attention whoring, if it is what I am thinking of. Lucky.

[Crystal Shards]

The things I am talking about are actions, not words. I see "we will be more strict [generalization]" but I have not seen it done yet. Now that I have been told that there are two staff members who are settling into their role I see that things may change. Basically I saw a large staff and things not being done as they should according to what I read of the rules here, and I had never heard of someone being hired and waiting any amount of time to start their job. It's something new to me so I overlooked it, won't happen again.

I think generally people like to wait and see how the current staff acts before they start making decisions of their own, but I understand now what you mean. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Lord Glenn]

@Blue Fox of Water - If we make it punishable, then it becomes yet another rule added to the list. And, considering the reaction to the couple of things that were just recently established, I don't see that going over so well. Minimodding fits nicely with the acceptable, general rule that is Rule 8. All it takes is common sense to realize positive posting habits, of which not stepping in to do the staff's job is one of them. If everyone was permitted to handle moderation, there wouldn't be a need for moderators or administrators.

@Death - First off, the two new staff members need little to no transition time. We've both been staff members for 2 years prior to becoming staff over here. Musashi had been a member here prior to becoming staff, while I frequently lurked. So, if any transition time were necessary, it'd be for me and only for getting up to date on the rules and such. Secondly, there's nothing that says that there needs to be an explicitly stated "You can't do X" rule in the Rules. A lot of the rules that are listed are generalized to allow for flexibility if the need arises. Think of it as something similar to the U.S. Supreme Court interpreting the U.S. Constitution. Furthermore, things don't occur in an instant. We take time to deliberate things before we do them. You don't want to jump guns blazing into a firefight without thinking of a plan first. The same applies to well-run communities as well. Input from each person on the staff helps to determine a good course of action.

@Cynthia - The problem is that your comparison example isn't SF. SF is what it is, and Jyosua and Vincent have chosen to run it this way. While I concur on your points of "babysitting," I prefer the way that SF has been run so far. In my eyes (and, as I've said several times so far), the members have not shown that they can stick within my so-called "positive posting habits," given the number of reported posts I've seen in just over a week. As for modbaiting, I've never seen it or frankly even heard of the term until you posted it. Based on the description, it would take an extremely immature memberbase to stoop to something that "low" and disrespectful, something that I certainly don't see here at SF. As for the last point, posts simply quoting posts to close a thread are spam within themselves and should be dealt with as such. There's no need to jump on someone's throat. (And, adding to that fact is that it's a staff decision to close a thread, not a member's.)

[lolDeath]

@Death - First off, the two new staff members need little to no transition time. We've both been staff members for 2 years prior to becoming staff over here. Musashi had been a member here prior to becoming staff, while I frequently lurked. So, if any transition time were necessary, it'd be for me and only for getting up to date on the rules and such. Secondly, there's nothing that says that there needs to be an explicitly stated "You can't do X" rule in the Rules. A lot of the rules that are listed are generalized to allow for flexibility if the need arises. Think of it as something similar to the U.S. Supreme Court interpreting the U.S. Constitution. Furthermore, things don't occur in an instant. We take time to deliberate things before we do them. You don't want to jump guns blazing into a firefight without thinking of a plan first. The same applies to well-run communities as well. Input from each person on the staff helps to determine a good course of action.

So basically you are saying that both of you are already doing your jobs? lol, Okay, I am finished then.

[Jyosua]

Let me get this straight, we are encouraged to report posts, even though a staff member said (in this thread I believe) that not all reports are even looked into? Why have no new staff members been hired, or if someone is not pulling their own weight why have they not been talked to or replaced?

I don't know who told you this, but I check every report, even though half the time, it's already been taken care of by the time I get there.

[lolDeath]

Already cleared up BFF.

[Cynthia]

To be honest I don't this becoming a rule any time soon, and it really isn't too helpful, as sure it discourages people from spamming topics to get them closed like a couple of idiots, but it also discourages honest members who really are just trying to talk about the original topic. Plus I think we're all limited on privileges as it is, as more and more are getting taken away for the constant abuse of the few.

Personally I think you should only report something is it TRULY can not be handled by the members, less we need the moderators to babysit everyone. By encouraging people to report EVERY off topic post instead of guiding the topic to the correct direction, you create more work for the staff members.

Just to show a comparison, I'm on another site with about 26,000 members with about 95% active on a regular basis and they only have four moderators and one admin, and things work just fine. They are able to handle every situation, and they set up guidelines for the members to help themselves in an appropriate manner, so that the moderators aren't needed for every little incident.

Now look at this forum, we have less than probably 120 active users, and yet we have four moderators and three admins. We have more manpower than a forum with 26,000 members, and people think THAT isn't enough? If it TRULY isn't enough, then obviously people are creating too much work to be done, and no one is being encouraged to handle their own problems in an appropriate manner, as they'd rather be babysat by moderators apparently.

Come on people, think about it. Do you really want MORE things the moderators have to babysit us on? Now we need the moderators to make sure threads are on topic all the time? Something that can EASILY have been done by the topic creator, or the members? I find it a little sad that all these people that claim to be "veterans," don't do much to help the community or steer members in the right direction, probably outside of a select few.

I'm sorry, but I really see, "minimodding," as less important of an issue than other things such as, "modbaiting," which really this new rule could be abused to do such, as people will just go looking for off topic posts to report a person they dislike for, over and over, and get their friends to do it as well.

I DO think there should be a rule about saying, "this topic needs to be closed," either limit it, or eliminate it. Once ONE person says it, there is a barrage of people quoting that ONE post. Once is enough, if needed at all. I also think we should LIMIT how many people say a topic is off topic, as the same thing happens with that...

The staff do their job quite well, and yet many more problems still arise. This is because people are forgetting the staff's job isn't to babysit us, it's to make sure the forum is functioning the way it was designed to function. People need to take a little more responsibility and learn to police THEMSELVES. I'm not encouraging people to go around and tell others what to do, however I DO encourage people to politely assist members that are unaware they are doing something wrong. What I am saying is to police YOURSELF. Really THINK about what you post are say, and take an extra few seconds or even minutes to ask if it's related to the topic, and if it could be taken as offensive, and edit a post that you think should have said either more or needs something pointed out.

Really if we all REVIEW what we post a little more before posting it, the problem will drop substantially.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Cynthia

[Crystal Shards]

Why are you repeating yourself?

[TheEnd]

Just to show a comparison, I'm on another site with about 26,000 members with about 95% active on a regular basis and they only have four moderators and one admin, and things work just fine. (...)

Spoiler:

if you're trying to apply the moderation solutions of a community with 26,000 members to one with 100, you're doing it terribly wrong.

People need to take a little more responsibility and learn to police THEMSELVES. (...)

You're telling childrens and teenagers to be adults. You seemingly don't have a clue of how wrong you are by defending that.

I DO think there should be a rule about saying, "this topic needs to be closed," either limit it, or eliminate it. Once ONE person says it, there is a barrage of people quoting that ONE post. Once is enough, if needed at all. I also think we should LIMIT how many people say a topic is off topic, as the same thing happens with that...

Although I disagree with everything else you say... if minimodding is to be discouraged, this is one of the first measures to be taken.

Edited November 25, 2008 by TheEnd

[Cynthia]

Spoiler:

if you're trying to apply the moderation solutions of a community with 26,000 members to one with 100, you're doing it terribly wrong.

You're telling childrens and teenagers to be adults. You seemingly don't have a clue of how wrong you are by defending that.

Although I disagree with everything else you say... if minimodding is to be discouraged, this is one of the first measures to be taken.

1. I don't see how it's a "terribly wrong," comparison, as it shows that we don't NEED to keep making MORE work for the moderators, and hire more moderators when the members can just learn to control themselves a little.

2. So you're telling me all the parents of these "children," and "teenagers," don't encourage them to act mature and responsible? I think YOU don't have a clue at how pointless it is to not encourage them to act mature. If no one does ANYTHING or says anything then they NEVER learn to mature. It's a system, and it DOES work, as after enough times people DO learn, however not EVERY person will learn. It's a 50/50 thing, some will some won't, nothing lost for those who do not, and something gained for those who do. I never said for them to be, "adults," anyways, I said for people to take some responsibility, which we SHOULD be starting to do in life ANYWAYS.

3. How can you disagree with EVERYTHING else I said? So you don't think people should take some responsibility? You don't think people should assist other members? I am not saying for EVERY last person to be 100% mature adults, I'm saying to at least make an ATTEMPT to behave ourselves to generate less work for the moderators, as really the goal is to have as few things NEEDED to be done by them as possible. Less moderation being NEEDED means less people are acting up, and less problems occurring.

The staff do their job quite well,

I also said that in my last post, so I guess you disagree with that since you disagree with EVERYTHING else.

Seriously, we can NOT rely on the staff to fix EVERY problem, which everyone seems to be under the impression. We have to at least make an ATTEMPT to fix some of our OWN problems, as that's part of life. No one holds your hand through it.

Why are you repeating yourself?

Repetition is the key to making a point. Make a point, stick by it, and make sure people listen to it.

The second reason is because I was building on what I already stated.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Cynthia

[Crystal Shards]

Repetition is the key to making a point. Make a point, stick by it, and make sure people listen to it.

The second reason is because I was building on what I already stated.

No it's not, because I for one didn't read it once I realized you just copy-pasta'd. If anything it made me ignore you.

[TheEnd]

1. A small and a massive communities necessarily have different moderation models, as well as a completely different level of interaction between the members. You can't compare them; the solutions that work in one case may just bring ruin in others. Larger communities are usually more professional and impersonal, while smaller ones (like SF's) are more tight-knit; it's easy to notice that the individual worth of a member in each of those communities is vastly different.

As a reference, FESS had 12 staff members in its golden days, and it worked wonderfully back then.

2. This isn't school, Vincent isn't your father, NTG isn't your aunt. This isn't work. This isn't serious business. It's great if somebody is mature enough to ponder about the relevance of his post and whatnot, but... people aren't here to have MATURITY shoved down their throats. They're here for fun. So, let the children be children, let the teenagers be teenagers and don't expect them to be Ideal Posters. If they commit detrimental excesses... well, that's the moderation's job. A child forced to behave like an adult may just become an adult that behaves like a child.

3. Maturity and responsibility are overrated. You're asking for an ideal situation where children and teenagers think "oh wait, internet game forum = SERIOUS BUSINESS. Let us put our neckties on and calmly discuss the matter at hand on a rational, civilized level, in order to decrease the burden over our respectable overlords who, indeed, would be overworked if we weren't to suppress the urges derived from our natural lack of maturity due to our correspondent lack of years on our backs." That's wrong. The real life environment will already provide enough opportunities for people to mature OR ELSE. The mods aren't our bosses. Actually, I could even say that the deference/maturity/whatever-else-you're-expecting-people-to-have kind of goes against the philosophy of these boards, maybe, but I'm not exactly qualified to talk about the purpose and whatnot of these forums, as I'm neither a staff member nor a veteran.

Also, I hate big texts. This includes those of my own making, naturally.

Edited November 25, 2008 by TheEnd

[Cynthia]

No it's not, because I for one didn't read it once I realized you just copy-pasta'd. If anything it made me ignore you.

I think you better read it, because at no point did I copy and paste.

As for TheEnd, I think you are taking what I said a level too high, and a little too extreme. I simply was suggesting we should make an effort to not act like we have no maturity ALL the time.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Cynthia

[Crystal Shards]

To be honest I don't this becoming a rule any time soon, and it really isn't too helpful, as sure it discourages people from spamming topics to get them closed like a couple of idiots, but it also discourages honest members who really are just trying to talk about the original topic. Plus I think we're all limited on privileges as it is, as more and more are getting taken away for the constant abuse of the few.

Personally I think you should only report something is it TRULY can not be handled by the members, less we need the moderators to babysit everyone. By encouraging people to report EVERY off topic post instead of guiding the topic to the correct direction, you create more work for the staff members.

Just to show a comparison, I'm on another site with about 26,000 members with about 95% active on a regular basis and they only have four moderators and one admin, and things work just fine. They are able to handle every situation, and they set up guidelines for the members to help themselves in an appropriate manner, so that the moderators aren't needed for every little incident.

Now look at this forum, we have less than probably 120 active users, and yet we have four moderators and three admins. We have more manpower than a forum with 26,000 members, and people think THAT isn't enough? If it TRULY isn't enough, then obviously people are creating too much work to be done, and no one is being encouraged to handle their own problems in an appropriate manner, as they'd rather be babysat by moderators apparently.

Come on people, think about it. Do you really want MORE things the moderators have to babysit us on? Now we need the moderators to make sure threads are on topic all the time? Something that can EASILY have been done by the topic creator, or the members? I find it a little sad that all these people that claim to be "veterans," don't do much to help the community or steer members in the right direction, probably outside of a select few.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see, "minimodding," as less important of an issue than other things such as, "modbaiting," which really this new rule could be abused to do such, as people will just go looking for off topic posts to report a person they dislike for, over and over, and get their friends to do it as well.

I DO think there should be a rule about saying, "this topic needs to be closed," either limit it, or eliminate it. Once ONE person says it, there is a barrage of people quoting that ONE post. Once is enough, if needed at all. I also think we should LIMIT how many people say a topic is off topic, as the same thing happens with that...

To be honest I don't this becoming a rule any time soon, and it really isn't too helpful, as sure it discourages people from spamming topics to get them closed like a couple of idiots, but it also discourages honest members who really are just trying to talk about the original topic. Plus I think we're all limited on privileges as it is, as more and more are getting taken away for the constant abuse of the few.

Personally I think you should only report something is it TRULY can not be handled by the members, less we need the moderators to babysit everyone. By encouraging people to report EVERY off topic post instead of guiding the topic to the correct direction, you create more work for the staff members.

Just to show a comparison, I'm on another site with about 26,000 members with about 95% active on a regular basis and they only have four moderators and one admin, and things work just fine. They are able to handle every situation, and they set up guidelines for the members to help themselves in an appropriate manner, so that the moderators aren't needed for every little incident.

Now look at this forum, we have less than probably 120 active users, and yet we have four moderators and three admins. We have more manpower than a forum with 26,000 members, and people think THAT isn't enough? If it TRULY isn't enough, then obviously people are creating too much work to be done, and no one is being encouraged to handle their own problems in an appropriate manner, as they'd rather be babysat by moderators apparently.

Come on people, think about it. Do you really want MORE things the moderators have to babysit us on? Now we need the moderators to make sure threads are on topic all the time? Something that can EASILY have been done by the topic creator, or the members? I find it a little sad that all these people that claim to be "veterans," don't do much to help the community or steer members in the right direction, probably outside of a select few.

I'm sorry, but I really see, "minimodding," as less important of an issue than other things such as, "modbaiting," which really this new rule could be abused to do such, as people will just go looking for off topic posts to report a person they dislike for, over and over, and get their friends to do it as well.

I DO think there should be a rule about saying, "this topic needs to be closed," either limit it, or eliminate it. Once ONE person says it, there is a barrage of people quoting that ONE post. Once is enough, if needed at all. I also think we should LIMIT how many people say a topic is off topic, as the same thing happens with that...

The staff do their job quite well, and yet many more problems still arise. This is because people are forgetting the staff's job isn't to babysit us, it's to make sure the forum is functioning the way it was designed to function. People need to take a little more responsibility and learn to police THEMSELVES. I'm not encouraging people to go around and tell others what to do, however I DO encourage people to politely assist members that are unaware they are doing something wrong. What I am saying is to police YOURSELF. Really THINK about what you post are say, and take an extra few seconds or even minutes to ask if it's related to the topic, and if it could be taken as offensive, and edit a post that you think should have said either more or needs something pointed out.

Really if we all REVIEW what we post a little more before posting it, the problem will drop substantially.

These look awfully similar. The bold part is the only part that's different, so maybe you should have just posted that.

[Cynthia]

These look awfully similar. The bold part is the only part that's different, so maybe you should have just posted that.

Ooooooh, THAT.

I actually didn't notice that...

It must have been a double post, and I only edited one... My apologies, I thought you were referring to something else. Let me fix that.

Must have been my bad internet connection sent two at different times... That is strange...

Must have been I didn't realize the first one went through this morning, so when I came back this evening the post was still in the post box, so I hit the button again.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Cynthia