FE9 Tier List!!!

[Lord Raven]

I'd put him above Mist actually, but not Marcia.

Any Paladin that has access to axes after promotion does not deserve below High tier. Makalov also can easily get his attack speed from a couple levels of BEXP and a Knight Ward and he compensates for it with the best class in the game.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[YokaiKnight]

I'd put him above Mist actually, but not Marcia.

Any Paladin that has access to axes after promotion does not deserve below High tier. Makalov also can easily get his attack speed from a couple levels of BEXP and a Knight Ward and he compensates for it with the best class in the game.

I think you're overrating Makalov's strong mid/endgame compared to his slow start. Makalov can't Steel Sword w/o AS loss until level 15 or 16. That's 20 ATK and 13 SPD. He can't do much in his arrival chapter, obiously sucks in the desert chapter, and can't kill anything ofter than mages and *maybe* archers in chapter 16. Assuming he's gained 6 levels in that span. Even assuming he promotes around part 3 or 4 of Day Breaks, he's still having trouble with the common Knights/Generals and Cavaliers/Paladins in those stages.

Plus, tiers are relative to other characters, and with the exception of Astrid the other Weapon Knights earn their level from coming and staying strong. In fact, awarding them both the same amount of BEXP (and KW if you want), Astrid is going to be doing more damage than Makalov at least until promotion, due virtually identical ATK and better SPD for doubling.

Astrid 20 28.6 13.6 5.8 16.4 16.5 10.7 8.7 10.6

Makalov 20 36.0 14.5 2.5 11.5 15.0 14.5 4.0 10.5

Astrid gets more out of the horse prepromotion too, thanks to hit & run keeping her off front lines. Makalov's EXP gains are minimal if he's being protected as much as she is.

Plus, before promotion his weak skill actually hurts him, if he's going to be using swords strong enough to one round anybody. Makalov is just not as effective as the other mounts early on. No one's denying he tears shit up after promotion, though.

I don't know, maybe I'm a skeptic. Though the paladins are great I don't make the automatic Paladin=god association all you actually decent debaters do. The class is great but without the stats, it's nowhere near as helpful. Makalov does not get same level of killing power as much as other Paladins (including Astrid) do quickly.

Edited February 5, 2009 by YokaiKnight

[Lord Raven]

We all need to one day have an easily accessible excel document where we can properly argue enemy stats.

At 20/1 he's not doing much worse than Oscar or Kieran, either.

With the Knight Ward his speed gets really high. BEXP + Knight Ward only favors him in the BEXP department, and considering many of your other units probably don't need it anyway, why not give it to one that needs it and could help the team pretty well at that point anyway? With like three or four levels of BEXP he can do pretty well (14 speed, 11 Strength).

Makalov does not get same level of killing power as much as other Paladins (including Astrid) do quickly.

So he's lower on the list than the others. Your point?

[YokaiKnight]

We all need to one day have an easily accessible excel document where we can properly argue enemy stats.

ya ;_;

At 20/1 he's not doing much worse than Oscar or Kieran, either.

They're 20/1 several chapters before he is, meaning he's facing stronger and more importantly faster enemies at the same level.

With the Knight Ward his speed gets really high.

Yeah, and who's (who can use it) doesn't

BEXP + Knight Ward only favors him in the BEXP department, and considering many of your other units probably don't need it anyway, why not give it to one that needs it and could help the team pretty well at that point anyway? With like three or four levels of BEXP he can do pretty well (14 speed, 11 Strength).

So I'm assuming that your first statement admits that Knight Ward is moot. As for BEXP, 3-4 levels for Makalov=AT LEAST 6-8 levels for Astrid. More if she's below level 10. And afterwards, she's still growing faster and killing faster, especially since she joins a chapter ahead and can rack up a few extra levels on chapter 13 and around half of chapter 14. She doesn't even need to kill things, holy shit. I feel like I'm doing one of those extreme ads.

Besides, 14 SPD and 11 STR is not "pretty well" for ch. 16 or 17. It's just alright. Maybe less, but I don't want to exaggerate any more.

So he's lower on the list than the others. Your point?

He's tiers lower than the others. Top of Upper Mid is great.

[Lord Raven]

They're 20/1 several chapters before he is, meaning he's facing stronger and more importantly faster enemies at the same level.

Note quite. They're 20/1 at like 17-2 or 17-3, whereas he can easily get to 20/1 on 17-4 or C18.

Yeah, and who's (who can use it) doesn't

whose, just because you're black does not mean you shouldn't know grammar

Anyways, at this point we've got Gatrie and Brom as the only people competing for it. Astrid, Oscar, Nephenee, Titania, and Kieran have already reached a point in which they are secure about doubling, whereas Gatrie and Brom don't really get much help from it due to their already pitiful bases.

As for BEXP, 3-4 levels for Makalov=AT LEAST 6-8 levels for Astrid.

Cool story bro, Astrid > Makalov. I'm not denying this.

Besides, 14 SPD and 11 STR is not "pretty well" for ch. 16 or 17. It's just alright. Maybe less, but I don't want to exaggerate any more.

He's not getting four level ups in one chapter. 300-400 BEXP gets him to that level, and he still has much chapters after 16 to do whatever he feels like. At any rate, hit is not much of a problem on him either. In fact, he has support with a unit who gives hit, axes to fight with WTA and Swords before promotion.

What's not to like? It doesn't take much work (300-400 EXP from BEXP, I should be a bit more clear especially considering your better units won't be using it anyway) and he makes up for it by having a mount and being able to use a Steel Axe straight after promotion.

[YokaiKnight]

Note quite. They're 20/1 at like 17-2 or 17-3, whereas he can easily get to 20/1 on 17-4 or C18.

Apply the same standards to them all, dude. Oscar "can easily get to 20/1" before landing in Begnion, without the aid of BEXP. Kieran can reach the same point at chapter 17 base or where you specified. Giving similar amounts of attention to all three, Makalov is going to be promoting later. I was going to continue, but we already know KO whoop Makalov.

Anyways, at this point we've got Gatrie and Brom as the only people competing for it. Astrid, Oscar, Nephenee, Titania, and Kieran have already reached a point in which they are secure about doubling, whereas Gatrie and Brom don't really get much help from it due to their already pitiful bases.

This doesn't negate:

1) The defense bonus. This is especially big for Astrid, who needs it more than Mak.

2) Use of the KW in the two chapters before you get him.

Regardless, Makalov is still a little bitch.

Cool story bro, Astrid >insert tier here Makalov. I'm not denying this.

fikst

He's not getting four level ups in one chapter. 300-400 BEXP gets him to that level, and he still has much chapters after 16 to do whatever he feels like. At any rate, hit is not much of a problem on him either. In fact, he has support with a unit who gives hit, axes to fight with WTA and Swords before promotion.

300-400 BEXP (to both) gets Astrid to a level above Makalov. You know, a level above. Kinda like a tier above. getitgetitgetitgetit

Makalov doesn't have a support until chapter 18, where he gains 2% hit and 5% avoid. GREAT SUCCESS

Here, let's toss Mak those 4 levels and throw him into chapter 16 w/the Steel Sword he comes with:

14 32.4 11.2 2.2 8.8 12.0 11.8 2.8 9.0

19 ATK, 97-117 hit, 11 AS.

Nigga please. Makalov doesn't have the power to one-round axes, archers, and certainly not lance users; isn't taking down a mounted unit on his own; and doesn't have the balls speed to double swords, or Wind and possibly Fire mages. What a beast. At the same level, fucking Mia is outkilling him. Makalov is one of the worse members of your team until promotion. He doesn't deserve High tier.

Swords before promotion is not an advantage, because he doesn't have the STR or SPD to kill with them.

What's not to like? It doesn't take much work (300-400 EXP from BEXP, I should be a bit more clear especially considering your better units won't be using it anyway) and he makes up for it by having a mount and being able to use a Steel Axe straight after promotion.

Some of your better units. Makalov is weak early on and strong later on. That's not high tier performance; that's middling. His class is easily worth bumping to that top half, but not high tier. Upper Mid is where this lying, cheating, fucking pink-haired freak belongs. :3

EDIT for fail formatting and somehow deleting one of the better parts of this post.

Edited February 6, 2009 by YokaiKnight

[Lord Raven]

1) The defense bonus. This is especially big for Astrid, who needs it more than Mak.

+2 Defense whoo hoo, it's so significant.

300-400 BEXP (to both) gets Astrid to a level above Makalov. You know, a level above. Kinda like a tier above. getitgetitgetitgetit

Here's the thing... Astrid can easily get 300-400 battle EXP herself because of Paragon, which is a boon. Makalov doesn't have that sort of access; this is a point for Astrid, quite easily. However, giving that to Astrid takes away from potential from Makalov and anyone else who uses it, because she can easily obtain that EXP for hitting shit whereas Makalov makes overall better use of it.

Makalov doesn't have a support until chapter 18, where he gains 2% hit and 5% avoid. GREAT SUCCESS

I like you, do you like me?

By then his hit will probably be good enough (WTA + Axes + promotion boost) anyway. I'm going to guess like 100ish without WTA?

Nigga please. Makalov doesn't have the power to one-round axes, archers, and certainly not lance users; isn't taking down a mounted unit on his own; and doesn't have the balls speed to double swords, or Wind and possibly Fire mages. What a beast. At the same level, fucking Mia is outkilling him. Makalov is one of the worse members of your team until promotion. He doesn't deserve High tier.

While I agree that he doesn't have balls, he'll have around 15 Speed by that level due to Knight Ward anyway. He'll probably be able to double.

Mia is outkilling, not outdurabilitying (excuse the lack of real words in my argument), on top of how Makalov is mounted as well so comparing the two is futile good sir.

Swords before promotion is not an advantage, because he doesn't have the STR or SPD to kill with them.

cool story bro, point against him.

Some of your better units. Makalov is weak early on and strong later on. That's not high tier performance; that's middling. His class is easily worth bumping to that top half, but not high tier. Upper Mid is where this lying, cheating, fucking pink-haired freak belongs. :3

He bases weak, but not after promotion. In reality, he performs very well for about 11 or 12 chapter's worth of playing out of 14-15 of availability. This isn't high tier material?

yeah yokai showing some FESSer pride (Y)

Edited February 6, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[YokaiKnight]

+2 Defense whoo hoo, it's so significant.

ya.

Here's the thing... Astrid can easily get 300-400 battle EXP herself because of Paragon, which is a boon. Makalov doesn't have that sort of access; this is a point for Astrid, quite easily. However, giving that to Astrid takes away from potential from Makalov and anyone else who uses it, because she can easily obtain that EXP for hitting shit whereas Makalov makes overall better use of it.

Getting Astrid to promotion even faster is not worse use of that BEXP. Makalov needs it more, but that doesn't mean the whole team will gain more from it. Astrid will be able to take huge swaths of the map much faster with that BEXP faster than Makalov will be able to become a decent fighter. Makalov is only Upper Mid.

By then his hit will probably be good enough (WTA + Axes + promotion boost) anyway. I'm going to guess like 100ish without WTA?

OK. He's still upper mid.

While I agree that he doesn't have balls, he'll have around 15 Speed by that level due to Knight Ward anyway. He'll probably be able to double.

Knight Ward is +35%, so that puts him at 13.4 at lv. 14. 12 or 13 AS. I guess he's killing Mages now, which I initially granted to him. He still fucking fails because of his lack of power. Makalov is upper mid.

Mia is outkilling, not outdurabilitying (excuse the lack of real words in my argument), on top of how Makalov is mounted as well so comparing the two is futile good sir.

It's not futile, Makalov still does less damage than Mia. OH HE'S MOUNTED SO HE HITS HARDER, HORSE +5 STR BONUS LOL

cool story bro, point against him.

Score one for upper mid Makalov

He bases weak, but not after promotion.

no1

said

he

did (fail after promotion)

he's

still

upper

mid (so second this motion)

In reality, he performs very well for about 11 or 12 chapter's worth of playing out of 14-15 of availability. This isn't high tier material?

I could challenge that you should tack on a couple chapters where he's merely performing decently, but fuck I'm getting tired of this. No, it's not high tier material. Awesomeness/Availability ratio does not save him, just as it does not knock characters like Geoffrey and Stefan up to high, or Calill up a tier, or Haar.

Makalov sucks too much early on to be a high tier character. That's all there is to it.

[Lord Raven]

Getting Astrid to promotion even faster is not worse use of that BEXP. Makalov needs it more, but that doesn't mean the whole team will gain more from it. Astrid will be able to take huge swaths of the map much faster with that BEXP faster than Makalov will be able to become a decent fighter. Makalov is only Upper Mid.

No, getting someone to promotion who already gains EXP at a fast pace is worse use of BEXP. Getting someone to a usable level faster -- in which he'll eventually destroy things after the investment anyway -- who doesn't get as much EXP is better use. Especially when said unit doesn't use bows and relies on close range combat.

Knight Ward is +35%, so that puts him at 13.4 at lv. 14. 12 or 13 AS. I guess he's killing Mages now, which I initially granted to him. He still fucking fails because of his lack of power. Makalov is upper mid.

C15, he sucks. Like all infantry that isn't Volke or magic.

C16, he's losing to everyone.

C17, he shows his colors.

C18, he begins to outperform like 60 or 70% of the chars you have in play.

?

It's not futile, Makalov still does less damage than Mia. OH HE'S MOUNTED SO HE HITS HARDER, HORSE +5 STR BONUS LOL

L14 Makalov, 1 more Strength, 4 less Spd, 7 more HP, 3 more Def, 2 more move, Canto. Really he's beating her in everything but AS, but we need some enemy stats before we say anything further. At any rate if 13 speed is failing at C16 then have plenty of fun with 14-15 Spd Oscar (L19, I'm going to assume he had the knight ward for the couple chapters before Makalov). It's not too much better, but that's cool because we're arguing Makalov > Upper mid not Makalov > Oscar.

I could challenge that you should tack on a couple chapters where he's merely performing decently, but fuck I'm getting tired of this. No, it's not high tier material. Awesomeness/Availability ratio does not save him, just as it does not knock characters like Geoffrey and Stefan up to high, or Calill up a tier, or Haar.

Awesomeness for 11 chapters, availability for 15 chapters.

Callil isn't really "awesome" for the time she's existent, even when built up.

Geoffrey isn't really "awesome" for the time he's around, and the time he's around is little in comparison anyway.

Haar is far from awesome.

Makalov sucks too much early on to be a high tier character. That's all there is to it.

Not really, he has good availability

[YokaiKnight]

No, getting someone to promotion who already gains EXP at a fast pace is worse use of BEXP. Getting someone to a usable level faster -- in which he'll eventually destroy things after the investment anyway -- who doesn't get as much EXP is better use. Especially when said unit doesn't use bows and relies on close range combat.

The point of EXP is to be able to kill better. That BEXP given to Makalov makes him go from not killing to occasionally killing. Given to Astrid, that takes her from also not killing to killing, if you give it to her earlier, or from killing to killing and surviving, if you hand it off a little later. The body count gain from BEXPing Astrid is bigger than Makalov's.

C15, he sucks. Like all infantry that isn't Volke or magic.

C16, he's losing to everyone.

C17, he shows his colors.

His rather upper midly colors, yes.

C18, he begins to outperform like 60 or 70% of the chars you have in play.

Not really. Not Oscar, Kieran, Ike, Titania, Boyd, Tanith, Jill, Astrid, and at this point not Zihark. That's like 8 or 9 people. 60-70% who are >= Makalov. Or do you have 25 characters in play?

?

L14 Makalov, 1 more Strength, 4 less Spd,

That looks like more kills for Mia to me. It doesn't to you?

but we need some enemy stats before we say anything further. At any rate if 13 speed is failing at C16 then have plenty of fun with 14-15 Spd Oscar (L19, I'm going to assume he had the knight ward for the couple chapters before Makalov). It's not too much better, but that's cool because we're arguing Makalov > Upper mid not Makalov > Oscar.

Oscar also has 4 more ATK from 2 STR and lances. +2 SPD and +4 ATK is hella wylin

Awesomeness for 11 chapters, availability for 15 chapters.

15 isn't holyshitgood, and he sucks in those 4. Upper mid

Callil isn't really "awesome" for the time she's existent, even when built up.

yeah she is, she's killing with the best of them and healers cover what she won't dodge. the whole time.

Geoffrey isn't really "awesome" for the time he's around, and the time he's around is little in comparison anyway.

To use your ratio example he's always good or great when you have him. But I'm discrediting the ratio so I guess that doesn't matter.

Haar is far from awesome.

Maybe.

None of this makes him any less upper mid.

Not really, he has good availability

dick me in the ass, so does rolf

[Lord Raven]

First off, I don't concede.

Second off, we need enemy stats, pronto.

Third off, I'm tired of people saying "just because x is very available does not make him high tier" as a comparison. It's stupid; clearly the point is (if they're trying to prove x is good) that they're good for most the time they're available and their availability is decent at the same time, as opposed to just availability.

Fourth, YokaiKnight, anal sex is apparently banned in Maryland and I'm straight. I'm sorry.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

one quick thing

I believe Oscar>Jill was argued some time ago on Gfaqs and it fell flat? Somebody explain that.

EDT:

but we need some enemy stats before we say anything further. At any rate if 13 speed is failing at C16

Reikken for '12

i'll just make this quick since AS is the only relevant thing here:

8 Myrmidon

6 15

5 StSw

1 IrBl

2 14

1 Longsword

1 Armorslayer

Mak doubles none of these.

2 Fighter

2 15

1 StAx

1 StAx,HnAx

just BARELY doubles the stl axe guys, only cause they're getting weighed down

5 Mage

3 16

1 Wind

1 Elfr

1 Elth

2 15

1 Thun

1 Fire/ Gamble**

Will only BARELY double the low end guys with Elfire/Elthunder.

4 Knight

1 16

1 IrLn

1 14

1 IrLn

2 12

2 IrLn

double, yes

damage, whole other story

2 Priest

2 16

2 Mend

VERY borderline double. Which I just want to point out is pretty sad.

1 Sniper

1 3

1 StBw

13-14 AS. That's about as fast as he is, lawl.

2 Soldier

2 13

2 IrLn

ONLY if the soldiers roll a low end, and even then it's sketchy because they've got the WTA and decent defense.

...I dunno, not looking so good to me.

also, source:

http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9EnemyStats.php

Edited February 7, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

I argued Oscar > Jill earlier in the thread so I don't fully see it either. It wasn't refuted.

[Reikken]

I'm not seeing what makes a tier of difference between Titania and Oscar.

The fact that she pwns the face off him for half the game

[Lord Raven]

I know you're Reikken and all but I bet you can say something better than that.

to upper mid goes makalov

Edited February 7, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

He's kinda right :/

Oscar can't even compare to her until what, C...uh, I dunno? When's Oscar promoting?

[Reikken]

Things that are obvious shouldn't need explaining...

Oscar obviously is getting his ass kicked for the first few chapters.

This continues until he promotes, though to a progressively lesser extent. Once his supports kick in, he has no more issues with defense, but they don't help his offense at all, which continues to be lacking.

Here's some stats when Oscar's getting close to promotion:

17 Oscar, A Ike, B Kieran,

Steel Lance - 22.3 atk, 12.6 AS, 110.2 hit, 6.3 crit - - 79.4 avo, 33.7 hp, 12.9 def, 4.2 res, 9.2 critavo - - 8 move

5 Titania, B Boyd, B Mist,

Steel Axe - 26.8 atk, 14.8 AS, 123.6 hit, 7.5 crit - - 42.4 avo, 36.2 hp, 15.6 def, 11.8 res, 12.8 critavo - - 9 move

Steel Lance - 25.8 atk, 16.0 AS, 128.6 hit, 7.5 crit - - 44.8 avo

And even this doesn't tell the whole story. Titania can use those awesome slayer axes like the hammer and poleaxe, which are much stronger than their lance counterparts (ex: hammer has 22 mt on knights; heavy spear has 16), while Oscar cannot.

Also, the weapon triangle comes into play. Vs lances and axes, the enemies that typically have the most hp/def, that steel axe beats Oscar's lance by an additional +1 mt. Works on defense as well, not that either of them need it.

[Lord Raven]

I MISREAD THAT COMPLETELY I'M SO SORRY XD

I was thinking Jill vs Oscar XD

[Dat Nick]

I'm not seeing what makes a tier of difference between Titania and Oscar.

then why did you type titania

[Lord Raven]

I misread the quote he quoted. Entirely. In fact, it wasn't even misreading the quote; I probably didn't see the quote and assumed the topic was talking about Jill/Oscar still.

It's a pretty epic fail.

I've put her in her own top tier for now (Super Top, Top tier but super).

Edited February 7, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

nah

The Literal Reincarnation of George Carlin only with red hair and breasts tier>>>>>>Super top

[Lord Raven]

Back on topic because I don't find you funny when you try to be.

Comments on Makalov's current position in Upper Mid?

Upper Mid

Volke

Zihark

Muarim

Stefan

Makalov

Rhys

Soren

Mordecai

Geoffrey

Nephenee

- below Stefan, because Stefan's bases are generally good and his stats remain decent (aside from evade and durability) until endgame. Which is where he gets passed up by Makalov.

It's on like post #12 of page 1 right now for easier reference.

[Tino]

I haven't followed the discussion at all, but looking at that Upper Mid Tier, I'm going to say wtf at Makalov's placement, Mordecai's placement, Muarim's placement and Zihark's placement. The former three are High Tier material, while Zihark can drop a tier, if you aks me.

Explanations might follow later. I gotta leave in 15 minutes or so, so I don't have the time to write something up (come to think of it, I probably won't have time the rest of this weekend >__>).

[Reikken]

I'll second feeling that those three are too low. I haven't done any recent re-examinations, though.

[riariadne]

...so yeah I haven't been here in a while and all of a sudden this place gets active.

also, Makalov has the best speed growth in the game. I know he doees in RD but I'm not 100% sure about this game. can someone confirm this?