FE5 Tier List

[Salad Utensil]

Extra knight proofs are always nice, besides you already have karin and dean do you REALLY need more fliers?

You can NEVER have enough fliers in some chapters. Chapter 19 is a perfect example.

As for knight's proofs...Tad late for that, don't ya think? Also, with what money?

Please explain why fliers are even useful in chapter 19. Supposedly if you play effenciently you should just try to end that chapter ASAP anyways I don't think even Dean with his movement stars can reach the villages before thieves. Its not like you lose any important items anyways. I recall the most valuable item from a past PT was a silver sword and kill lance (lol indoors). The rest of the villages had crap like a heal staff or holy water

I'm guessing you don't use arenas at all? Also didn't you sell the life rings and stamina bags in your own playthrough in this forum? they are worth 4k each, exactly enough to but knight proofs with bargain. even just only 20k can but 5 knight proofs with bargain. I mean you might as well promote any characters you plan to use by endgame anyways if you haven't already. I mean I'm sure safy and sleuf might appreciate a little more resistance/defense/move/avo in case you made a mistake.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Brighton

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Does bargain count towards Shanam in this tier list because if it does than i can't see eda>shanam

It's the only thing keeping him form being hte worst character in the game, and I'd take flying utility over shopping at half price when we generally have no money, shops sell garbage anyways, and we can just get what we need through capturing by the time he shows up.

Extra knight proofs are always nice, besides you already have karin and dean do you REALLY need more fliers?

I find it amusing how this exact argument can be tweaked to hurt both Miranda and Shanam even more than Eda. It's really simple:

Extra Knight Proofs are a fucking waste at that point, besides you already have Othin, Halvan, Fin, Fergus, Asvel, Carrion, Shiva, Brighton and etc. Do you REALLY need another combat unit with a horrible start that requires some serious babying or a mediocre prepromote who's Bargain skill wasn't around when it was actually useful?

I suppose one could argue that the Knight Proofs could go to staff users like Salem and Sara but they're both capable of reaching A by that time without promotion.

[grandjackal]

Please explain why fliers are even useful in chapter 19. Supposedly if you play effenciently you should just try to end that chapter ASAP anyways I don't think even Dean with his movement stars can reach the villages before thieves. Its not like you lose any important items anyways. I recall the most valuable item from a past PT was a silver sword and kill lance (lol indoors). The rest of the villages had crap like a heal staff or holy water

Yeah, rescuing my units down south has no merit whatsoever. The chapter forces a HUGE number of units into this chapter, to the point I doubt it can only be mounts, along with either Miranda/Sleuf if you're recruiting Amalda/Conomore. Then factor in Tahra where I was flying to rescue houses to save civies in the gaiden that got me those S Drinks of which there I got the money of which I would then use Shanam for to buy knight proofs.

I'd take a rescuer over a dude I'd only put on a map to do one single thing.

I'm guessing you don't use arenas at all? Also didn't you sell the life rings and stamina bags in your own playthrough in this forum, they are worth 4k each, exactly enough to but knight proofs with bargain. even just only 20k can but 5 knight proofs with bargain. I mean you might as well promote any characters you plan to use by endgame anyways if you haven't already. I mean I'm sure safy and sleuf might appreciate a little more resistance/defense/move/avo in case you made a mistake.

People not me would actually use those things ;;>>

Also by then, you got enough knight's proofs to promote who you want. Buying more I actually think would be overkill. There's also no reason to promote Sleuf and Saphy. They gain offense, but if I recall it's A. Only light magic, and B. They'd be garbage anyways. Sleuf's too slow, and Saphy's too frail.

[Salad Utensil]

Does bargain count towards Shanam in this tier list because if it does than i can't see eda>shanam

It's the only thing keeping him form being hte worst character in the game, and I'd take flying utility over shopping at half price when we generally have no money, shops sell garbage anyways, and we can just get what we need through capturing by the time he shows up.

Extra knight proofs are always nice, besides you already have karin and dean do you REALLY need more fliers?

I find it amusing how this exact argument can be tweaked to hurt both Miranda and Shanam even more than Eda. It's really simple:

Extra Knight Proofs are a fucking waste at that point, besides you already have Othin, Halvan, Fin, Fergus, Asvel, Carrion, Shiva, Brighton and etc. Do you REALLY need another combat unit with a horrible start that requires some serious babying or a mediocre prepromote who's Bargain skill wasn't around when it was actually useful?

I suppose one could argue that the Knight Proofs could go to staff users like Salem and Sara but they're both capable of reaching A by that time without promotion.

Please elaborate how the exact argument is tweaked to hurt shanam and miranda. Also respond to the point of how spare knight proofs used on safy or sleuf is an actually detriment towards the rest of the characters

I already conceded that Miranda suks I just was bring up the point that she can use long range tomes with just one full fire tome. I wasn't arguing her for top tier or anything...

I think investing 100WEXP worth of staves for salem is a little too much without a promotion. Unless you don't plann on using linoan or something.

[grandjackal]

Please elaborate how the exact argument is tweaked to hurt shanam and miranda. Also respond to the point of how spare knight proofs used on safy or sleuf is an actually detriment towards the rest of the characters

I already conceded that Miranda suks I just was bring up the point that she can use long range tomes with just one full fire tome. I wasn't arguing her for top tier or anything...

I think investing 100WEXP worth of staves for salem is a little too much without a promotion. Unless you don't plann on using linoan or something.

Sleuf an actual detriment towards actual char-HAHAHAHAHAHAA! How!? It's impossible to be a detriment with auto-A staffs. With A staffs, you're automatically too important by default. A staffs=I don't need a crest because I'm alreadya game-haxing god.

The thing is, that's not exactly special. Asvel can nab blizzard, Eyrios can nab the plentiful amount of Thunderstorms, hell, if we can get Salem to A Darkness, he can use freaking Fenrir. At least by the time Miranda shows up, Eda sucks quite a bit less.

I never really fond promoting Salem a problem. Hell, it's not like you actually have to promote some of those guys you listed. Like I'd promote Othin before I promoted Halvan.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Salad Utensil]

Yeah, rescuing my units down south has no merit whatsoever. The chapter forces a HUGE number of units into this chapter, to the point I doubt it can only be mounts, along with either Miranda/Sleuf if you're recruiting Amalda/Conomore. Then factor in Tahra where I was flying to rescue houses to save civies in the gaiden that got me those S Drinks of which there I got the money of which I would then use Shanam for to buy knight proofs.

I'd take a rescuer over a dude I'd only put on a map to do one single thing.

You already have 11 mounted units (non-flying) and 4 fliers. Its not like fielding all of them is an issue since this map is just a runnaway map

[grandjackal]

Yeah, rescuing my units down south has no merit whatsoever. The chapter forces a HUGE number of units into this chapter, to the point I doubt it can only be mounts, along with either Miranda/Sleuf if you're recruiting Amalda/Conomore. Then factor in Tahra where I was flying to rescue houses to save civies in the gaiden that got me those S Drinks of which there I got the money of which I would then use Shanam for to buy knight proofs.

I'd take a rescuer over a dude I'd only put on a map to do one single thing.

You already have 11 mounted units (non-flying) and 4 fliers. Its not like fielding all of them is an issue since this map is just a runnaway map

You need to bring Sleuf/Miranda, and the forced number limit is 17. At least 2 of them will be unmounted. Besides, know what helps? Not being chased. With flying, I could take even dismounts and fly them over ridges so they have absolutely no chance of being attacked, like ohhhh let's say when Conomore's movement stars make him put on his rape-face.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Please elaborate how the exact argument is tweaked to hurt shanam and miranda. Also respond to the point of how spare knight proofs used on safy or sleuf is an actually detriment towards the rest of the characters

I think investing 100WEXP worth of staves for salem is a little too much without a promotion. Unless you don't plann on using linoan or something.

You sandbag Eda because there's other people doing her Job. I sandbag Shanam and Miranda because there's even more people doing their job (save Bargain of course).

He can get it if need be but like Jackal (Robo Ky) said, you enough Knight Proofs for that. 9 by the end of C13. 4 more before C22. As previously said, Sara can get to A rank before then without promotion and Linoan needs no promotion item so if we're saving a Knight Proof for Salem, then you've still got 12 others for combat units... that's quite enough already.

[Salad Utensil]

Sleuf an actual detriment towards actual char-HAHAHAHAHAHAA! How!? It's impossible to be a detriment with auto-A staffs. With A staffs, you're automatically too important by default.

The thing is, that's not exactly special. Asvel can nab blizzard, Eyrios can nab the plentiful amount of Thunderstorms, hell, if we can get Salem to A Darkness, he can use freaking Fenrir. At least by the time Miranda shows up, Eda sucks quite a bit less.

I never really fond promoting Salem a problem. Hell, it's not like you actually have to promote some of those guys you listed. Like I'd promote Othin before I promoted Halvan.

I think you misinterpreted my argument. Shanam makes safy and Sleuf stronger by allowing them to promote IF you haven't already. In all my playthroughs i use around 26 PCs and there isn't always enought KPs to go around. The High priest promotion gives

3 magic->resistence, better healing, and better status infection rates

1 def->slight durability they desperately need

More levels->maybe more chances to get HP for durability.

I never said you should promote them to fight, i just said promotion>no promotion

Salem is not going to reach A for Fenrir unless he uses flux 100 times. Good luck doubling with that and gaining Wexp.

I'm just saying if you use more than just like 14 chacters and around 20 need to be promoted, Promotion is always>no promotion

Eda does something 15 other can do. Shanam does something only he can do and he helps the team overall by increasing durabiltiy

Well end games you might have 10000gold what are you going to use it for, a checking account? BTW chapter 22 armoury also sells kill swords. Why not buy some.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Brighton

[Dr. Tarrasque]

In all my playthroughs i use around 26 PCs and there isn't always enought KPs to go around.

What the hell? Why use so many if you know you'll have trouble promoting them? Never mind that there's some prepromote that don't need Knight Proofs.

[Salad Utensil]

In all my playthroughs i use around 26 PCs and there isn't always enought KPs to go around.

What the hell? Why use so many if you know you'll have trouble promoting them? Never mind that there's some prepromote that don't need Knight Proofs.

Fatigue, mount advantages, foot unit indoor advantage, etc.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

In all my playthroughs i use around 26 PCs and there isn't always enought KPs to go around.

What the hell? Why use so many if you know you'll have trouble promoting them? Never mind that there's some prepromote that don't need Knight Proofs.

Fatigue, mount advantages, foot unit indoor advantage, etc.

None of that makes me focus on such a number of units. Heck I usually end up having Knight Proofs to spare that which I may give to a random level 10+ character.

[Salad Utensil]

about 7 are prepromotes that come endgame anyways. I usually don't train 26 units throughout the whole game. Besides its not impossible to miss KPs too. Some are very hard/annoy/inefficient to get. My point about shanam is that IF you have a bunch of $$ left he is the best person to play merlinus which can help the rest of your team get good equips and stat boosters, thus making it stronger. I don't see how Eda can beat that.

Random note Misha<Eda (misha down). Her base defense is lower than even Eda's 6vs 9 and Eda has availibility

Edited August 26, 2009 by Brighton

[Renall]

Going back to the Lara thing, she's a dancer, and I hate dancers, but she does have some things going for her in this game:

1) She's also a thief. She can't really steal anything good, but she can steal a few things and pick locks, which is at least something. You need her in Manster anyway with all the stuff to pick and possibly to steal vulneraries.

2) She can dance staff users. This is somewhat dubious at first blush, but really it's no different than the "refreshes your best combat unit" argument from other games. And she can do that too, if you want. And dancing a staff user has some pretty incredible benefits.

3) She actually has a movement star, giving her at least some potential to double-dance.

4) Her promotion is free.

[Mekkah]

Lara also makes amazing capture bait because of her low bld and no need to give her any weapons (or items) at all to be useful.

[Don Draper]

Knight proofs are not an issue at all. Lets say you are planning your team for endgame. 18 available spaces. You'll be using Sety and Galzus, so thats 16. Leaf, Lara and Linoan don't need a Knight Proof so thats 13. Pahn is a prepromote, thas 12. Sleuf, Saphy and Sara don't need to promote to reach A staves so thats 9. And you get 9 by chapter 13? Problem solved. Even if you promote all those staff users and use Lifis instead of Pahn, there are still enough to go around with the extra 4 you get. You do not need to buy Knight Proofs in this game.

[Don Draper]

Now, I think people have been overrating Carrion because everyone loves to give him favouritism, like giving him the Elite Sword. Problem is, he isn't entitled to it. Lets look at Carrion vs. Machua.

Now Machua's had the Manster escape chapters to be very useful, where Carrion doesn't even exist. This also lets her get plenty of levels by the time Carrion finally shows up. Lets take a look:

Machua 9/0

28 HP, 38 Avd, 6 Def

Iron Sword: 12 Atk, 15 AS, 14 and 42 Crit

Rapier (effective): 18 Atk, 15 AS, 24 and 72 Crit

Carrion 1/0

24 HP, 22 Avd, 5 Def

Iron Sword: 11 Atk, 8 AS, 5 and 20 Crit

Iron Lance: 12 Atk, 5 AS, 5 and 20 Crit

Machua is obviously winning, plus she might of had some scroll time from Manster, meaning her lead would be even higher. I don't think any further explanation is needed. Now, Carrion isn't entitled to the Elite Sword because many other people want it too. Shiva's only three levels higher then Carrion right now, so he wants it. Nanna wants it so she gets more exp from healing. Even Machua might want it here and then for a level boost. But lets look at them a little bit later.

Machua 16/0

32 HP, 49 Avd, 8 Def

Silver: 22 Atk, 18 AS, 18 and 54 Crit

Carrion 14/0

34 HP, 41 Avd, 9 Def

Iron Blade: 22 Atk, 8 AS, 13 and 52 Crit

Steel Sword: 19 Atk, 11 AS, 13 and 52 Crit

Steel Lance: 2 less atk then Iron Blade, same otherwise

Carrion's still losing, thanks to his build and lower weapon level. See, Carrion starts with E Swords (although it becomes D soon), and he has to juggle two weapon types, so he can't just focus on one. This means that if he wants to match Machua's damage output, he's going to have to sacrifice his AS, making his avoid even lower. Machua is still beating Carrion. Not really including scrolls in this comparison, as they will help them both out about equally. Can a promotion save him? Well lets see.

Machua 20/1

35 HP, 52 Avd, 12 Def

Silver Sword: 26 Atk, 20 AS, 20 and 60 Crit

Iron Axe: 23 Atk, 20 AS, 20 and 60 Crit

Master Sword: 26 Atk, 15 AS, 25 and 75 Crit

Carrion 20/1

38 HP, 52 Avd, 12 Def

Silver Sword: 29 Atk, 18 AS, 20 and 80 Crit

Silver Lance: 30 Atk, 18 AS, 20 and 80 Crit

Master Sword: 29 Atk, 15 AS, 25 and 100 Crit

Now they may seem even in everything but offence, but Machua also has the advantage of having Ambush, which will allow her to ORKO enemies before they can even attack her. This helps her durability immensely. Carrion on the other hand is forced to take every single attack during enemy phase, and cannot destroy enemies before they even have a chance to attack. The offence on these characters is also overkill. 26 Atk for example is enough to OHKO a 36 HP/13 Def Armors with a critical in the FINAL CHAPTER. Therefore, the defencive advantages that Machua has through Ambush, along with her much better start, are enough to outweigh Carrion's slight offensive advantage after promotion. Carrion down, or Machua up (I think we've been a little too hard on her).

Edited August 29, 2009 by IOS

[grandjackal]

You forgot how soon she can use the Brave Sword and Armorslayers compared to him.

I feel Machua is very underrated as well. Having used her a bit in my last playthrough, she's an interesting mixup unit. What's her PCR? If it's big, she has a huge advantage already.

[Don Draper]

Her PCC is 3 in relation to his 4. Still a base 60% critical chance after she maxes skill (which happens really fast) is nothing to sneeze at. Asvel's is 3 as well for example.

[grandjackal]

Well I certainly see her above Mareeta in the very very least. That basically makes Machua able to do Mareeta's job, that being assassinations. However, I'm willing to bet that Machua has far more durability. She's also got quite a bit of sword rank on our paladin in training, for the brave and the slayer.

Seriously, do not underestimate swords in this game ;;>> She's like Halvan if he had better skill and luck along with greater PCR....I think.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

@Jackal: Halvan's PCC/PCR is 4. If only Brighton's PCC was higher, her support would be better.

[grandjackal]

Yeeaaahhh, figured I was wrong there ;;>> Still though, Halvan's skill doesn't get too high. I mean, Machua gets skill like mad. She's defintely hitting 20 before he gets anywhere near that number. I mean he with 12...48 crit. Machua with 20=60. Did I mention Machua can get her own brave weapon as well? ;;>>

[Don Draper]

Machua 20/1

35 HP, 52 Avd, 12 Def

Mareeta 20/1

34 HP, 58 Avd, 9 Def

Not to mention, Machua has an enormous level lead. And Mareeta only has 6 Bld, so that avoid is going to drop like a rock if she tries to wield anything above Iron. And there is obviously Ambush, which is benefiting her durability.

Edited August 29, 2009 by IOS

[Fei Mao]

Growth rate wise: how much of a difference is 5% less in strength growth from the top melee units like Fin, and Fergus?

[grandjackal]

Growth rate wise: how much of a difference is 5% less in strength growth from the top melee units like Fin, and Fergus?

Not much, though I think you should take a gander at their bases with that considered...