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Unfortunately, Clear & Effective Explanations are Far Too Rare


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Throughout my life, my social intuition, the ability to know what to do in social situations without having someone guide me through it, hasn't always been the greatest... I've made a heck of a lot of mistakes, far too few of which I've really learned from. It's part of the reason I've been seeing a therapist to help compensate for my social intuition issues.

 

One of the greatest contributors to my strings of mistakes... is people refusing to give me clear, good-faith explanations, even when I ask. They instead prefer to yell or say things like "You should've known!" When that doesn't leave me confused, it makes me think I was right after all, and that others were just picking on me; after all, when people keep refusing to validate their positions, their criticism naturally loses a lot of credibility in your eyes, right?

 

And in the rare times where people DID explain things to me reasonably, clearly and logically... 9 times out of 10, I learned and became a better person. So... I feel that such clear communication is not appreciated near enough in the culture I was raised in.

 

Am I the only one who feels this way? I'd like to hear about your thoughts and experiences.

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I'll give you the clearest possible explanation I can for why this topic makes me uneasy.

8 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

One of the greatest contributors to my strings of mistakes... is people refusing to give me clear, good-faith explanations, even when I ask.

IRL?  Online?  What's the context here?  I also see a general lack of introspection, and that already rings alarm bells.

8 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

When that doesn't leave me confused, it makes me think I was right after all, and that others were just picking on me; after all, when people keep refusing to validate their positions, their criticism naturally loses a lot of credibility in your eyes, right?

Without context, it's impossible to say.  Nor is it okay to assume that you're right because someone couldn't explain something.  I can't explain some of my "bad feelings", but I will be absolutely damned if anyone tells me to ignore my instincts.

8 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

Am I the only one who feels this way? I'd like to hear about your thoughts and experiences.

It sounds like you're looking for agreement instead of a "clear explanation".  Combined with everything else I've said, and this entire topic doesn't look honest.

So, what can you do?

1. Context.  What are some examples of this?
2. If you're looking for "clear explanations", you're more likely to get them if the other person thinks you're acting in good faith.
3. Ask yourself what kind of reaction you thought the other person expected.  And make a note of those times where something goes badly.

Edited by eclipse
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I am on the autistic spectrum and a lot of what you describe sounds very familiar to me. Here is what works for me. First, remember that communication inherently requires two (or more) people. It is a collaborative process. There is a speaker and a listener, a reader and a writer. If there is a failure to communicate effectively, then that is the responsibility of both parties. There are lots of reasons why people might have different communication styles. It could be neurodiversity, cultural background, personality, or any number of other things. But regardless of the underlying reason, if two people who communicate differently are trying to communicate with each other, then the onus lies on both those people to put in the effort.

If you're only thinking in terms of how the other person isn't communicating effectively to you then that will probably lead you astray. At the same time, you also need to think about what you need to do to communicate effectively with them. Consider the circumstance you describe where you are confused by something but the person you are talking to won't offer any clarification. The reason for this is often that they don't recognise or understand that you are confused; you have not adequately communicated this fact to them. You may think that you have. You may have said something that seems to you to obviously and unambiguously state that you are confused, but for whatever reason they haven't understood this. But at the same time, they might be thinking that what they said was obvious and unambiguous to them. It's the same problem in both directions.

Which brings me onto: always try to assume good faith whenever possible. The majoirty of people you interact with will be making genuine attempts to communicate with you. If you assume that they aren't trying, are disingenuous or aren't credible, then you are closing off the possibility of effective communication. It's basically saying "I don't think that you're trying, so I'm not going to try either". And in a few cases, yeah, that's the right reaction. Some people don't act in good faith. But most people do. Which means it's generally a good idea to assume that someone is acting in good faith until or unless they demonstrate to you that they aren't.

I will also add that it is much more difficult to communicate effectively in situations when one or both parties are angry, upset, or otherwise highly emotional. The groundwork for solid two-way communication needs to be put in before things get to that point, and if it breaks down then it is worthwhile to go back after the fact and try to figure out why. If there was an unpleasant social interaction then it's easy to not want to think about it, but that's just inviting the same thing to happen again. Trying to figure out what went wrong and how to avoid it in future -- as a collaboration between both parties if possible -- is something that should be happening when everyone has cooled down and is calm and happy.

I believe that about 1% of the population is on the autistic spectrum. This means that as an autistic person, I have to try to communicate with neurotypical people much more often than an average neurotypical person has to communicate with autistic people. This is simulataneously an advantage and disadvantage for me. The disadvantage is that it can be exhausting. Pretty much every single conversation I have is with someone who thinks differently to me and communicates differently to me, and I have to put in the effort to accommodate that. But it's an advantage because it means that if I have a conversation with a neurotypical person, I probably have a lot more practice and experience talking to people like them than they do to people like me. Sadly, that means that a lot of the time I end up being the one having to put in most of the work (which increases the exhaustion aspect), but such is life. And for close friends and family -- those who I interact with a lot -- they will generally put in at least as much effort to accomodate me as I do to accomodate them.

Summary version: assume good faith and remember that communication is a two-way process. If there is a failure to communicate but both parties are willing to assume good faith and put in the effort to overcome the communication barrier, then it is usually possible to overcome it.

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On 5/5/2021 at 1:56 AM, eclipse said:

IRL?  Online?  What's the context here?  I also see a general lack of introspection, and that already rings alarm bells.

Thank you very much for responding and giving thoughtful feedback. To answer this part of your post I quoted, it was both irl and online. And what makes it seem that I wasn't being introspective in the sorts of experiences I mentioned? It's actually my introspection that prompted me to post this topic to begin with.

 

On 5/5/2021 at 1:56 AM, eclipse said:

Without context, it's impossible to say.  Nor is it okay to assume that you're right because someone couldn't explain something.  I can't explain some of my "bad feelings", but I will be absolutely damned if anyone tells me to ignore my instincts.

Indeed, there can be problems with assuming I'm right because the other person couldn't validate their position. Perhaps they were still right all along despite them having a hard time explaining things.

 

The alternative, however, is far worse: blindly agreeing with said other person. That's very anti-critical-thinking and can really hurt one's self-esteem. Speaking of which, I regret actually favoring that alternative during my high school and college years. Certainly not my smartest tendency.

 

On 5/5/2021 at 1:56 AM, eclipse said:

1. Context.  What are some examples of this?

Example 1:

Bob is an artist who really wants to be able to make a living off of online commissions, yet despite several years of effort, he can rarely get business. So he gets desperate, making himself look like a pathetic beggar on the internet as he tries to advertise his commission services.

Instead of explaining to him how he's making himself look bad, and offering a more dignified way of advertising himself... people just insult him or otherwise scorn him.

 

Example 2:

Alice had a bad habit of being too open with her dissatisfactions with people. She became known as a chronic whiner, getting a pretty bad rep. Instead of explaining to her how and why her complaints were problematic, people just... Well, read the previous example.

 

I once knew a guy like Bob, and instead of scorning him, I gave him the sort of feedback I wish I got when I messed up. And you know what? His behavior improved immensely. I myself was like Alice, and introspection helped me learn my lesson... albeit far later than was healthy.

 

On 5/5/2021 at 1:56 AM, eclipse said:

2. If you're looking for "clear explanations", you're more likely to get them if the other person thinks you're acting in good faith.

I agree and I understand on an emotional level how that works.

 

On 5/5/2021 at 1:56 AM, eclipse said:

3. Ask yourself what kind of reaction you thought the other person expected.  And make a note of those times where something goes badly.

That's a good idea. Could you elaborate more? Speaking of making notes of times where things went badly, here's an anecdote:

 

I was a little kid, and I didn't want a teacher getting all up in my business. They tried just that one day. I forget what I said to get the idea across at the time, but despite how I intended to be respectful, they got angry. I later thought "Maybe I should have worded it a different way... Maybe then they won't be offended."

 

I trusted that thought, and what do you know... it didn't work! The teacher got angry anyway. I vaguely remember there being many such times where I thought some change in my actions or wording, would get my intentions across better... only for my attempts to fall flat on their face, with me having no idea why.

 

It was pretty frustrating, trying so hard to please people, trying so hard to understand them, yet they won't even give me the time of day. I even cried in many of those situations up until I was in my early teens.

 

On 5/5/2021 at 4:02 AM, lenticular said:

But regardless of the underlying reason, if two people who communicate differently are trying to communicate with each other, then the onus lies on both those people to put in the effort.

I agree with this and pretty much everything in your post. Having known this fact even as a kid, was what got me to ask for clarification so often to begin with.

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3 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

Thank you very much for responding and giving thoughtful feedback. To answer this part of your post I quoted, it was both irl and online. And what makes it seem that I wasn't being introspective in the sorts of experiences I mentioned? It's actually my introspection that prompted me to post this topic to begin with.

The lack of introspection comes when you expect others to explain things to you in a clear and concise manner.  Part of this is asking yourself questions, like "what could the other person have seen".  The questions would be more specific, depending on who it was, what happened, what you think should've happened, why, etc.  Count everyone online as "random strangers", because I know nothing about you outside of what you choose to share.

So for example, your post.  I have no idea what your situation is except what you said about it.  From my point of view, you placed the blame of not being able to understand people on others.  From my own experiences, this is usually the work of those who are trying to dodge responsibility for their own actions.  The actual cause of this could be extremely varied, and I have my own suspicions, but airing those outright makes no sense.  Hence why I poked as hard as I did.

3 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

Indeed, there can be problems with assuming I'm right because the other person couldn't validate their position. Perhaps they were still right all along despite them having a hard time explaining things.

There's also the issue of self-bias.  You know your motives.  The other person may not want to reveal theirs right away, or at all.  While it's possible to get someone's motivation based off of words/actions alone, it's not easy.  Part of the path towards that is understanding why people react the way they do.  There's almost always some sort of logic/past experience at play.

3 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

The alternative, however, is far worse: blindly agreeing with said other person. That's very anti-critical-thinking and can really hurt one's self-esteem. Speaking of which, I regret actually favoring that alternative during my high school and college years. Certainly not my smartest tendency.

"I don't agree but I can't put it into words right now" is a stance that I've found myself agreeing with recently.  It's not one you want to stay in, but it's a reminder that something is bugging you, but you can't explain it.  I find that arguing it out helps me to figure out what's bothering me, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to go into long, extended conversations at this stage.  You can analyze your own thoughts and feelings!

3 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

Example 1:

Bob is an artist who really wants to be able to make a living off of online commissions, yet despite several years of effort, he can rarely get business. So he gets desperate, making himself look like a pathetic beggar on the internet as he tries to advertise his commission services.

Instead of explaining to him how he's making himself look bad, and offering a more dignified way of advertising himself... people just insult him or otherwise scorn him.

 

Example 2:

Alice had a bad habit of being too open with her dissatisfactions with people. She became known as a chronic whiner, getting a pretty bad rep. Instead of explaining to her how and why her complaints were problematic, people just... Well, read the previous example.

 

I once knew a guy like Bob, and instead of scorning him, I gave him the sort of feedback I wish I got when I messed up. And you know what? His behavior improved immensely. I myself was like Alice, and introspection helped me learn my lesson... albeit far later than was healthy.

I'll do my best.

Example 1: Your understanding is that Bob really wants to get sales.  However, someone who doesn't know Bob will simply see the beggar side.  And as much as Bob wants to make a living based off of online commissions, if he can't, then he has a lot of other options besides begging (research who else is in his niche and then figure out how he can differentiate himself, get another job in the meantime, etc.).  Being shady about it tells the other person that Bob is dishonest, even if that's not Bob's intention.

Example 2: No one's life is perfect.  If Alice has that many things wrong with her life, she'd be better off seeking professional help.  Depression is a real condition, and not one that should be dumped on others.  Or it could be that Alice is venting to the wrong people.

3 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

That's a good idea. Could you elaborate more? Speaking of making notes of times where things went badly, here's an anecdote:

 

I was a little kid, and I didn't want a teacher getting all up in my business. They tried just that one day. I forget what I said to get the idea across at the time, but despite how I intended to be respectful, they got angry. I later thought "Maybe I should have worded it a different way... Maybe then they won't be offended."

 

I trusted that thought, and what do you know... it didn't work! The teacher got angry anyway. I vaguely remember there being many such times where I thought some change in my actions or wording, would get my intentions across better... only for my attempts to fall flat on their face, with me having no idea why.

 

It was pretty frustrating, trying so hard to please people, trying so hard to understand them, yet they won't even give me the time of day. I even cried in many of those situations up until I was in my early teens.

This helps a lot.  I've had a lot of bad experiences with my teachers, so I'm the wrong person to ask about this.

---

Which means I'm more comfortable asking this - do you think you can be professionally evaluated for autism?  This isn't an insult, this is a serious question.  I'm not licensed in any sort of medical field, and even if I was, it would be horribly irresponsible of me to attempt to diagnose you online.  Call it a situation where I can't quite explain it without coming across as offensive (sorry).  Serious Discussion can't take the place of a qualified medical professional, but I can try to point you towards the right people.

Sorry for having to winnow out one of two possibilities.

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On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, eclipse said:

The lack of introspection comes when you expect others to explain things to you in a clear and concise manner.  Part of this is asking yourself questions, like "what could the other person have seen".  The questions would be more specific, depending on who it was, what happened, what you think should've happened, why, etc.  Count everyone online as "random strangers", because I know nothing about you outside of what you choose to share.

Makes sense. And I have indeed asked myself questions to try to understand why the other person reacted as they did, even when I was young.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, eclipse said:

So for example, your post.  I have no idea what your situation is except what you said about it.  From my point of view, you placed the blame of not being able to understand people on others.  From my own experiences, this is usually the work of those who are trying to dodge responsibility for their own actions.  The actual cause of this could be extremely varied, and I have my own suspicions, but airing those outright makes no sense.  Hence why I poked as hard as I did.

Yes, I was indeed placing a fair bit of blame on others with how I said "One of the greatest contributors"; I chose that wording knowing that it wouldn't be fair to place all of said blame, since I myself do bear a lot of responsibility. Now I see why you thought I wasn't being introspective at all.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, eclipse said:

There's also the issue of self-bias.  You know your motives.  The other person may not want to reveal theirs right away, or at all.  While it's possible to get someone's motivation based off of words/actions alone, it's not easy.  Part of the path towards that is understanding why people react the way they do.  There's almost always some sort of logic/past experience at play.

Very true. Logic/past experience (or as psychology experts might put it, reference frames) does indeed color the way we interpret things. For example, to you, I seemed responsibility-dodging due to the way I worded my post. As I've explained before, while I do place some of the responsibility on others, I do place a lot on myself as well.

 

Also, trying to understand how others reacted was something I always struggled with (and not for a lack of effort), and it very much frustrated me.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, eclipse said:

"I don't agree but I can't put it into words right now" is a stance that I've found myself agreeing with recently.  It's not one you want to stay in, but it's a reminder that something is bugging you, but you can't explain it.  I find that arguing it out helps me to figure out what's bothering me, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to go into long, extended conversations at this stage.  You can analyze your own thoughts and feelings!

I appreciate the feedback, and I'd like to understand your POV better; I´m not entirely sure what you´re trying to say here, insofar as it being a response to the part of my post right above it. Please elaborate.

As for analyzing my own thoughts and feelings, that is something I struggle with as well, hence why I've been seeing a therapist.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, eclipse said:

Example 1: Your understanding is that Bob really wants to get sales.  However, someone who doesn't know Bob will simply see the beggar side.  And as much as Bob wants to make a living based off of online commissions, if he can't, then he has a lot of other options besides begging (research who else is in his niche and then figure out how he can differentiate himself, get another job in the meantime, etc.).  Being shady about it tells the other person that Bob is dishonest, even if that's not Bob's intention.

Yes, he may have other options. The issue here was the lack of constructive feedback I believe he's entitled to. Whether one knows him or not, whether he seemed shady or not, I believe it is best to offer constructive advice like I did. After all, when you don't even know someone, shouldn't you usually give them the benefit of the doubt? Seems like the nice thing to do, and healthy for our society, in my opinion, with how it may cut down on ignorance.

 

Btw, Alice was a hypothetical stand-in for me; Bob (not his real name, of course) was a guy I actually met and advised, though.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, eclipse said:

Example 2: No one's life is perfect.  If Alice has that many things wrong with her life, she'd be better off seeking professional help.  Depression is a real condition, and not one that should be dumped on others.  Or it could be that Alice is venting to the wrong people.

Very true, I may have vented to the wrong people. I certainly needed professional help, and (as I later learned) it wasn't good to vent so much of it to others. And I believe the same constructiveness principle still applies like with Bob.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, eclipse said:

Which means I'm more comfortable asking this - do you think you can be professionally evaluated for autism?  This isn't an insult, this is a serious question.  I'm not licensed in any sort of medical field, and even if I was, it would be horribly irresponsible of me to attempt to diagnose you online.  Call it a situation where I can't quite explain it without coming across as offensive (sorry).  Serious Discussion can't take the place of a qualified medical professional, but I can try to point you towards the right people.

Sorry for having to winnow out one of two possibilities.

I actually was professionally diagnosed for autism; Aspergers, to be exact. And don't worry, I wasn't offended. And yes, I know that forum discussions are no substitute for actual professionals; I still felt that the issue of giving constructive feedback to people who need it (like when they mess up big-time) is still worth discussing on this board.

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5 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

I appreciate the feedback, and I'd like to understand your POV better; I´m not entirely sure what you´re trying to say here, insofar as it being a response to the part of my post right above it. Please elaborate.

As for analyzing my own thoughts and feelings, that is something I struggle with as well, hence why I've been seeing a therapist.

Logic isn't the end of everything.  Sometimes, I'll get the sense that something-or-other is just wrong, but I can't put my finger on it.  Perhaps I'm reacting to a memory that I can't quite visualize, perhaps I'm picking up on cues that I can't explain, perhaps it's my emotions playing tricks on me, etc.  Regardless, just because I can't tell you why doesn't mean that the conclusion is necessarily wrong.  It'll probably take me some time to figure out what's bugging me, though - assuming I CAN figure it out.

5 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

Yes, he may have other options. The issue here was the lack of constructive feedback I believe he's entitled to. Whether one knows him or not, whether he seemed shady or not, I believe it is best to offer constructive advice like I did. After all, when you don't even know someone, shouldn't you usually give them the benefit of the doubt? Seems like the nice thing to do, and healthy for our society, in my opinion, with how it may cut down on ignorance.

No, especially when it comes to money.  People will go through great lengths to get their hands on it (hello there scammers), hence why I'm usually wary when someone's both asking for money and acting strangely.  Save being "nice" for when the consequences of being wrong aren't tied to your ability to buy food.

In other words, assess the risk of being wrong, as well as what the other person would gain by being dishonest.  When it comes to sensitive matters (money, your personal information), there's a much better chance that you'll deal with someone who isn't fully honest, because money/your personal information is very valuable (relatively speaking).  If you're chatting about best FE character, then there's less of a motive to lie about it, and the consequences of giving someone the benefit of the doubt are a lot lower.

5 hours ago, Tessie Spoon said:

I actually was professionally diagnosed for autism; Aspergers, to be exact. And don't worry, I wasn't offended. And yes, I know that forum discussions are no substitute for actual professionals; I still felt that the issue of giving constructive feedback to people who need it (like when they mess up big-time) is still worth discussing on this board.

Remember what I said about people lying?  Applies here, too.  There's also a subset of people who aren't going to explain things because they can't explain it to themselves.  While it would be nice if everyone would explain themselves properly, you'll be disappointed more often than not.  I'm not sure what resources are available for someone with Asperger's - perhaps your therapist can help with that?  I wouldn't rely on random strangers for help, though.

EDIT: Don't do what's in the spoiler tags.  It's in the spoiler tags because there's a good amount of swearing and a large amount of utter stupidity.  It's not an honest defense of anyone's behavior, either.  As in, anyone who tries to excuse their behavior using these words will not be excused.  Lastly, I don't endorse anything said by the lawyer in question.  I posted this as an example of what NOT to do.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by eclipse
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On 5/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, eclipse said:

Regardless, just because I can't tell you why doesn't mean that the conclusion is necessarily wrong.  It'll probably take me some time to figure out what's bugging me, though - assuming I CAN figure it out.

I know. The thing is, if I can't see that the conclusion is wrong (due to the lack of explanation), then I believe that it is fair for me to not believe in said conclusion; not everyone's instincts are that good. All the same, it wouldn't be fair for me to blame the other person for believing in that conclusion, if the reference frames behind their belief are good enough. In your hypothetical case, they very well may be.

 

On 5/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, eclipse said:

No, especially when it comes to money.  People will go through great lengths to get their hands on it (hello there scammers), hence why I'm usually wary when someone's both asking for money and acting strangely.  Save being "nice" for when the consequences of being wrong aren't tied to your ability to buy food.

In other words, assess the risk of being wrong, as well as what the other person would gain by being dishonest.  When it comes to sensitive matters (money, your personal information), there's a much better chance that you'll deal with someone who isn't fully honest, because money/your personal information is very valuable (relatively speaking).  If you're chatting about best FE character, then there's less of a motive to lie about it, and the consequences of giving someone the benefit of the doubt are a lot lower.

Ah, you have a point; I forgot to consider scammers.  And as someone who usually gives the benefit of the doubt when not seeing reason to do otherwise, I don’t understand the implication of the “No” in your response: that by default, explaining things to people messing up socially poses significant risk to things like your finances.

 

On 5/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, eclipse said:

Remember what I said about people lying?  Applies here, too.  There's also a subset of people who aren't going to explain things because they can't explain it to themselves.  While it would be nice if everyone would explain themselves properly, you'll be disappointed more often than not. 

The thing about lying being about the scammers and such? Makes sense, and I think I know why people tend to have such a hard time explaining things.

 

On 5/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, eclipse said:

I'm not sure what resources are available for someone with Asperger's - perhaps your therapist can help with that?  I wouldn't rely on random strangers for help, though.

Yes, my therapist is helping me with that. And yes, relying on random strangers is a gamble not worth taking on stuff like this; I’d rather listen to trusted friends and family.

 

On 5/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, eclipse said:

EDIT: Don't do what's in the spoiler tags.  It's in the spoiler tags because there's a good amount of swearing and a large amount of utter stupidity.  It's not an honest defense of anyone's behavior, either.  As in, anyone who tries to excuse their behavior using these words will not be excused.  Lastly, I don't endorse anything said by the lawyer in question.  I posted this as an example of what NOT to do.

Yeah, especially in what's supposed to be a professional context, that phrasing was very overly-hostile. It also showed a fair bit of ignorance about autism while relying quite a bit on ad-hom attacks ^^; Yes, that's definitely stuff to avoid when you're trying to make a point. Thanks!

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