Hero Class

[ZanaLyrander]

The Hero class really frustrates me. Aesthetically, it's really cool. But then I look at its growth rates, abilities, and everything else and realize it's just Swordmaster, but worse. It's really disappointing, is there something I'm missing? Is there any point in using Hero over Swordmaster? Is Vantage really worth it?

[GlitchWarrior]

Sadly in this game it's anything but worth it- any unit can get Vantage by picking it up out of Mercenary, and the only sword-based units that can access Hero do better in Swordmaster or Assassin. The worst part is that IS made it males-only, meaning the few units who have both good sword and axe skills (besides Ferdinand) can't even get into the one class that plays to both of those strengths- and, again, would be better in Swordmaster, Assassin, Warrior or Wyvern (though I wouldn't even consider Wyvern in an average discussion that that class is effectively banned in my playthroughs for balance's sake).

[lenticular]

The general consensus, which I would agree with, is that no, there really isn't any particular use for Hero.

If you want Vantage, it's generally pretty easy to just pick it up by mastering Mercenary instead. Having it built-in does mean that you can save a skill slot, but there are very few builds that really need all five skill slots to work out. I've seen people advocate Hero for late joiners like Alois and Gilbert who don't have an easy a time mastering Mercenary and can then combine it with Battalion Wrath, but I have to say I don't see it myself.

There are a couple of other minor potential advantages that Hero has over Swordmaster, but neither one is particularly impressive. First, it's easier to certify into. Which would be a bit of a selling point if Assassin didn't also exist, require a more useful secondary weapon, and just generally be better. The other one is Defiant Strength as the mastery ability. Some people like Defiant builds, but I am not one of those people.

So, yeah. You can sort of manage to build a very minor niche for it if you really try, but I definitely don't think it's worth it.

[Shadow Mir]

In a word: No. In general, someone who would be good as a Hero would be better as a Swordmaster or Assassin. Vantage can be picked up earlier by mastering Mercenary. The worst of it is that Hero is male-exclusive.

58 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I've seen people advocate Hero for late joiners like Alois and Gilbert who don't have an easy a time mastering Mercenary and can then combine it with Battalion Wrath, but I have to say I don't see it myself.

To be frank, Vantage/Battalion Wrath is pretty crappy thanks to needing to meet two thresholds at the same time. The only good thing about it is that you don't have to master Warrior... which ain't enough to offset the fact that it has all the problems of vanilla Vantage/Wrath setups, in addition to pretty much forcing you to swap battalions every couple of fights or so, given that you have to purposefully take damage for it to work, and if that damage is coming from battles, you get closer and closer to losing your battalion, and with it the bonuses it gives you.

[lenticular]

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

To be frank, Vantage/Battalion Wrath is pretty crappy thanks to needing to meet two thresholds at the same time. The only good thing about it is that you don't have to master Warrior... which ain't enough to offset the fact that it has all the problems of vanilla Vantage/Wrath setups, in addition to pretty much forcing you to swap battalions every couple of fights or so, given that you have to purposefully take damage for it to work, and if that damage is coming from battles, you get closer and closer to losing your battalion, and with it the bonuses it gives you.

Agreed. To be clear, I am absolutely not saying that I think that this build is good, just saying that it is something that I have seen people suggest. I agree with you that it's pretty terrible.

[LoneStar]

I've made use of the class with Battalion Wrath on either Seteth or Alois to end turn sweep specific maps like the Rhea paralogue, because of the seige tomes and Bow Knights. And also the Ferdinand/Lysithea paralogue because of the high enemy density and your units are surrounded.

Yeah it sucks that the class isn't too great. I really like the design, but we'll have to stick with the superior War Master.

[GlitchWarrior]

7 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

Yeah it sucks that the class isn't too great. I really like the design, but we'll have to stick with the superior War Master.

I find it ridiculous that War Master is so much better than any other footsoldier class in the game by such a huge margin (Crit +30 is a drug man) and yet there are still better classes (Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord obviously come to mind for me)

[Barren]

I remember someone wrote up a maddening meta analysis. I think it was Regnor. He pointed out that while all sword classes like Swordmaster or Assassin and even Hero are not worth considered to be final picks for classes, Hero is the best out of the 4 Swordfaire users which isn’t saying alot because of defiant strength shenanigans.

Plus you would need Wrath from the warrior class to combo with Hero’s innate vantage to work well. Balthus has a boon in sword and axe so he can easily nab it. Also it does mesh very well with his personal skill so you’ll be seeing some really high numbers from on. Especially if you bring Vantage, Wrath and Defiant Strength to Warmaster.

It is a shame that Hero is too gimmicky in this game anyways for them to work. And being gender locked doesn’t help matters either.

Using Vantage + Battalion Wrath is more of a chore compared to regular Vantage + Wrath anyways. I particularly would rather abuse Dimitri’s B. Vantage and B.Wrath or some combo of B. Wrath with like Alert Stance or something.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Barren

[Shadow Mir]

41 minutes ago, Barren said:

I remember someone wrote up a maddening meta analysis. I think it was Regnor. He pointed out that while all sword classes like Swordmaster or Assassin and even Hero are not worth considered to be final picks for classes, Hero is the best out of the 4 Swordfaire users which isn’t saying alot because of defiant strength shenanigans.

I'd disagree with that, largely because Defiant Strength (or better yet, Defiant whatever) is not worth it. By the time it's even relevant, I'd be very, very hard-pressed to find something that I could replace with Defiant Strength without making my overall build worse.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Barren]

26 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd disagree with that, largely because Defiant Strength (or better yet, Defiant whatever) is not worth it. By the time it's even relevant, I'd be very, very hard-pressed to find something that I could replace with Defiant Strength without making my overall build worse.

In a vacuum it’s generally more trouble than it’s worth yes. Plus it takes a lot of deliberate setup to pull it off. Like Blessing, Retribution and a guard adjutant. Just to make on super unit.
 

At least with Vengeance builds (most famously Bernadetta) can be better to manage without vantage or wrath. I know that this is off topic but it is a low HP strategy that associates this high risk high reward gameplay. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Assassin is the best physical Swordfaire class because Stealth opens up tactical options the others don't. On top of that it's 6 move + ignores terrain penalties, whereas Hero and Swordmaster are 5 move + don't ignore penalties, so you can watch the latter slow to an absolute crawl in maps like the monastery defence map.

Not much to say, I'm definitely on the team of Hero-skeptical folks. It and Swordmaster may well be the two worst Advanced classes. Even if you want Vantage (which isn't really wonderful in the first place), you're better off mastering Mercenary then going to an actually good class. Defiant Strength has uses but isn't worth being in a bad class for so long, IMO... and even if you want to be in a mediocre Advanced class to get a low-HP mastery, Wrath is probably a better use of your time.

1 hour ago, GlitchWarrior said:

I find it ridiculous that War Master is so much better than any other footsoldier class in the game by such a huge margin (Crit +30 is a drug man) and yet there are still better classes (Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord obviously come to mind for me)

I would argue Sniper is considerably superior to War Master, since Hunter's Volley is an even bigger drug than the crit boost (which is only +20... still good, mind) and they can reasonably expect to have it before War Master is even available (i.e. level 30). If you meant melee footsoldier, then I'd be more inclined agree, for all that I think there's a case to be made for Assassin and Grappler as well.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

50 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd disagree with that, largely because Defiant Strength (or better yet, Defiant whatever) is not worth it. By the time it's even relevant, I'd be very, very hard-pressed to find something that I could replace with Defiant Strength without making my overall build worse.

Hero Balthus using a Wo Dao with Wrath, Defiant Strength, Sword Prowess, Hit +20, and Strength +2. GG. Arguably a better enemy phase build than Battalion Wrath/Vantage Dimitri, albeit harder to set up.

All-in-all Hero not a very good class outside of these hyperspecialized builds, though. And there's an argument that Swordmaster is even better at what Hero is supposed to do, because it offers Sword Crit +10. Of course, in that case, you need to master Mercenary and find a skill to overwrite with Vantage (probably Strength +2).

[Armchair General]

Damn, is their any class that you guys don't hate in this game?

[Dark Holy Elf]

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All-in-all Hero not a very good class outside of these hyperspecialized builds, though. And there's an argument that Swordmaster is even better at what Hero is supposed to do, because it offers Sword Crit +10. Of course, in that case, you need to master Mercenary and find a skill to overwrite with Vantage (probably Strength +2).

I'd suggest mastering Mercenary and instead using War Master or Wyvern Lord. By the time you've got both Defiant Strength and Wrath, there's little doubt you're Level 30, so these classes are available. Compared to Hero, they offer +2/+3 strength (of note, you can lose Str+2 at no cost!), Axefaire instead of Swordfaire (resulting in considerably more damage), and a player's choice of +1 move and +20 crit, or +3 move, canto, and flight. A substantial upgrade in either case.

(I'd also generally argue that the build could be improved still further by skipping Defiant Strength entirely and getting to your superior endgame class faster, but I'll admit there's at least room to quibble there.)

Just now, Armchair General said:

Damn, is their any class that you guys don't hate in this game?

Lots! Just sticking to advanced classes for comparison, there's Wyvern Rider, Paladin, Sniper, Warlock, Bishop, Grappler, Assassin, Dark Flier, Valkyrie, and War Cleric. And I can see a case for Fortress Knight. Really, it's just the low-move melee fighters (and the somewhat muddled Trickster) I'm down on, since other classes can easily do what they do without the mobility problems.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[Armchair General]

I'm not sure if it's an personal thing, but I really don't see the value in stuff like Desperation and Wrath. Granted, I never bothered to try my luck with Lunatic, yet; but most of the class abilities feel kind of homogeneous to me.

 

Idk, I'm so used to having stuff like Astra and Luna in my ability pool, and 3H mainly offers stuff that revolves around an risky playstyle and the means of crippling some for one turn instead of six instead of going with an little bit of everything. Sure, the stuff that's within the base game is something that I can work with; but I'm not really into researching for another layer of stat modifiers when the game is moderately easy. And I can't remember why I have Weight -3 on one of my characters, lmao.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Armchair General

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

33 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd suggest mastering Mercenary and instead using War Master or Wyvern Lord. By the time you've got both Defiant Strength and Wrath, there's little doubt you're Level 30, so these classes are available. Compared to Hero, they offer +2/+3 strength (of note, you can lose Str+2 at no cost!), Axefaire instead of Swordfaire (resulting in considerably more damage), and a player's choice of +1 move and +20 crit, or +3 move, canto, and flight. A substantial upgrade in either case.

Comparing Killer Axe+ War Master with Wo Dao+ Hero, he'd have 15 more Crit and 4* more Attack, but 10 less Hit (assuming respective Prowess Lv. 5). Compared to Wo Dao+ Swordmaster, he has 4 more Crit and 6 more Attack, but 11 less Hit.

*Would be a 6-point margin, but this assumes Hero has room for Strength +2, while War Master and Swordmaster forsake it for Vantage.

What about Wo Dao+ War Master? He'd have 20 more Crit, but 3 less Attack and equal Hit, relative to Wo Dao+ Hero. Compared to Wo Dao+ Swordmaster, he has 9 more Crit, 1 less Attack, and 1 less Hit.

Now let's look at Killer Axe+ Wyvern Lord. He'll have 4 less Crit, 3 more Attack, and 9 less Hit, versus Wo Dao+ Hero. Compared to Wo Dao+ Swordmaster, he has 15 less Crit, 5 more Attack, and 10 less Hit.

Finally, compare Killer Axe+ War Master to Cursed Ashiya Sword+ Hero. He will have 5 more Crit, 1 less Attack, and 10 more Hit. Compared to CAS+ SM, he has 6 less Crit, 1 more Attack, and 9 more Hit.

So, Killer Axe+ Axefaire builds carry certain advantages in Attack, while being behind Wo Dao+ Swordfaire builds in Hit. War Master will outcrit Wo Dao+ Swordfaire builds, while Wyvern Lord will not. KA+ WM beats CAS+ Hero/SM in Hit, while being close in Crit and Attack. Wo Dao+ WM of course outcrits either Wo Dao+ Swordfair class, but at a cost to power.

All things told, I think these builds are competitive with each other, in terms of raw combat prowess. It's all trade-offs between Crit, Attack, and Hit. In none of the listed comparisons does a build come ahead in all 3. Rather, it's a question of what you want more for a particular map.

This isn't getting into the fact that War Master and Wyvern Lord offer better mobility, nor that WL is more constrained in its battalion options. WM and WL have certain... demands... to certify in. Even assuming you reached A Axes in Warrior, for WM you need at least C+ Brawling. And for WL, C Lances and C+ Flight (or D+ Lances and B Flight if that's easier). If your plan is to end in Hero, you don't need to train anything but Swords (A+ for Prowess Lv. 5), Axes (A for/from Warrior), Bows (D+ to get into Archer), and Authority (even C gives access to a great Lordly battalion).

Final note: my Crit comparisons are slightly off because I used a wrong Crit formula for 3H. But I don't think any are off by literally more than 0.5, so I'm not adjusting it.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hero Balthus using a Wo Dao with Wrath, Defiant Strength, Sword Prowess, Hit +20, and Strength +2. GG. Arguably a better enemy phase build than Battalion Wrath/Vantage Dimitri, albeit harder to set up.

Until you get hit by an enemy gambit, leaving Balthus a massive clay pigeon for whatever else is in range to attack him. Being rattled does bad things to your stats.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Until you get hit by an enemy gambit, leaving Balthus a massive clay pigeon for whatever else is in range to attack him. Being rattled does bad things to your stats.

"Good luck, I'm behind Rally Charm and a +10 Charm battalion!"

Yeah it's a lot of investment, but if the gameplan is "have this one unit kill all the enemies on eny-phase", then no one else's combat really matters, does it?

[Dark Holy Elf]

54 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

good numbers

This is a very solid analysis. But I am inclined to stand by my initial statement. War Master seems to be broadly coming out ahead in combat compared to Hero. Using the simplest comparison (the first one you noted), +4 atk +15 crit -10 hit is a very clear win. Note that if for some reason you feel differently for a given map, it's usually easy to swap out a battalion for one with higher hit, e.g. going from Leicester Mercs -> Edmund Troops. But honestly I think a build with Hit+20 and a potential Accuracy Ring and adjutant isn't going to have trouble hitting things.

Wyvern Lord is much less of a clear win, but it still feels comparable... and of course you're really choosing the class for the mobility to get where it wants. But in my books, that's important!

39 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah it's a lot of investment, but if the gameplan is "have this one unit kill all the enemies on eny-phase", then no one else's combat really matters, does it?

Even with max charm there's an 8% chance to be hit by most gambits, and if you're in Defiant Strength range, a hit probably means you die. "92% chance to not die" isn't really inspiring to me in this game, but your milage may vary, particularly with how Divine Pulse works.

More generally, I wouldn't say nobody else's combat matters. Other actions might still have been needed on player phase. In particular, any monsters and siege weapons need to be controlled. Armours tend to survive crits from these builds, too, so clearing those out is also valuable. Gambit-users are also valuable to kill for the reasons above. And your forces might be divided. Broadly speaking, I would argue that needing fewer actions for a particular plan is a positive, all things being equal. High-charm units do tend to be a bit lower-investment for enemy phase builds, as such - another reason why Dimitri is the best at them. It's not essential, though, as you note.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"Good luck, I'm behind Rally Charm and a +10 Charm battalion!"

Yeah it's a lot of investment, but if the gameplan is "have this one unit kill all the enemies on eny-phase", then no one else's combat really matters, does it?

You seem to be under the impression that this is bulletproof when it really isn't. If you're low enough to be in Defiant range, you're probably also low enough that a hit means you die. 

[Barren]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You seem to be under the impression that this is bulletproof when it really isn't. If you're low enough to be in Defiant range, you're probably also low enough that a hit means you die. 

There is also Blessing and a guard adjutant you can use for Balthus too. Rally Charm does at least lower the chances of a unit being hit by a gambit. Plus you could also send someone to either kill the gambit user or if Balthus has a offensive gambit, use that on the enemy that has a gambit to prevent them from using it themselves. Retribution also helps with snipers and warlocks of the like.

Yes nothing is guaranteed but with some monthly tea time with Balthus for a point of charm you could make it work. Stat boosters too. Is this something that I would do? No not necessarily, but that doesn’t mean no one should try it for themselves.

I once used Ingrid with defiant avoid and a crit set with the Cursed Ashiya sword and retribution. And for me she never died nor got hit. Just sliced through enemies like butter.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Barren
Typo

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Barren said:

There is also Blessing and a guard adjutant you can use for Balthus too. Rally Charm does at least lower the chances of a unit being hit by a gambit. Plus you could also send someone to either kill the gambit user or if Balthus has a offensive gambit, use that on the enemy that has a gambit to prevent them from using it themselves. Retribution also helps with snipers and warlocks of the like.

Yes nothing is guaranteed but with some monthly tea time with Balthus for a point of charm you could make it work. Stat boosters too. Is this something that I would do? No not necessarily, but that doesn’t mean no one should try it for themselves.

I was used Ingrid with defiant avoid and a crit set with the Cursed Ashiya sword and retribution. And for me she never died nor got hit. Just sliced through enemies like butter.

Blessing can give someone a second chance, but still, that doesn't take away from how risky these are to use. Or that Defiants pretty much require building around them for them to be remotely useful. OR that they're win-more at best.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

More generally, I wouldn't say nobody else's combat matters. Other actions might still have been needed on player phase. In particular, any monsters and siege weapons need to be controlled. Armours tend to survive crits from these builds, too, so clearing those out is also valuable. Gambit-users are also valuable to kill for the reasons above. And your forces might be divided. Broadly speaking, I would argue that needing fewer actions for a particular plan is a positive, all things being equal. High-charm units do tend to be a bit lower-investment for enemy phase builds, as such - another reason why Dimitri is the best at them. It's not essential, though, as you note.

That is fair, there may be enemies that my "EP carry" cannot handle. Such as Monsters with anti-Crit shielding, and ballistae that can't be Retribution'd. So I think it's map-by-map situational.

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This is a very solid analysis. But I am inclined to stand by my initial statement. War Master seems to be broadly coming out ahead in combat compared to Hero. Using the simplest comparison (the first one you noted), +4 atk +15 crit -10 hit is a very clear win. Note that if for some reason you feel differently for a given map, it's usually easy to swap out a battalion for one with higher hit, e.g. going from Leicester Mercs -> Edmund Troops. But honestly I think a build with Hit+20 and a potential Accuracy Ring and adjutant isn't going to have trouble hitting things.

I think this one varies by map, too. If there's little concerning terrain, then the extra Hit rates from Sword builds are probably superfluous. But in maps where Forests and Thickets are common, missing the enemy may be a more serious concern. 

2 hours ago, Barren said:

I was used Ingrid with defiant avoid and a crit set with the Cursed Ashiya sword and retribution. And for me she never died nor got hit. Just sliced through enemies like butter.

Yeah, Defiant Avoid/Crit Ingrid was amazing for me too, even if I didn't have her properly set up until the last couple chapters of Maddening.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You seem to be under the impression that this is bulletproof when it really isn't. If you're low enough to be in Defiant range, you're probably also low enough that a hit means you die. 

There have definitely been cases where the AI says that the enemy is gonna gambit one of my units, then I Rally Charm them, and it says they're gonna attack normally instead. I'm not sure whether this is determined by Power or Hit rate. Point is, the enemy AI will situationally go for an attack even if they have an offensive gambit available. The point of Charm boosts isn't to become immune to Gambits, but to convince the enemies that they shouldn't even try Gambiting in the first place.

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

There have definitely been cases where the AI says that the enemy is gonna gambit one of my units, then I Rally Charm them, and it says they're gonna attack normally instead. I'm not sure whether this is determined by Power or Hit rate. Point is, the enemy AI will situationally go for an attack even if they have an offensive gambit available. The point of Charm boosts isn't to become immune to Gambits, but to convince the enemies that they shouldn't even try Gambiting in the first place.

Seems you missed the point I was trying to make, which is that it's too inconsistent, and when you need low HP for your build to even work, inconsistency invites death.

[wissenschaft]

I'll just copy what Rengor says about hero:

Generally regarded as the worst of the sword-focused classes, it’s ironically the best one. The trick to its success is that innate Vantage – while it is true mastering Mercenary can give you Vantage too, this way you don’t have to grind class mastery and/or can equip some other skill in its place. This combined with Battalion Wrath can create a really low investment unit with a large enemy phase killing potential – examples include Alois, Seteth and Jeritza, all of whom start with Battalion Wrath and join late, so not requiring mastering Mercenary is a good boon. Other than this, the other reason to go into this class is for the useful mastery ability: Defiant Strength’s 8 Str boost is very significant when a large portion of offense happens on Player Phase, or just to boost a wrath/vantage setup. You can calculate damage taken or use something like Blessing to get within the threshold then just don’t get hit and reap the benefits with something like Hunter’s Volley or Fierce Iron Fist. Overall, a really good situational class that gets underrated.

 

Regor is the type of player to switch into a class temporarily just for a mission to exploit their advantages. Examples include changing into thief for ch 6 and ch 7 for the good items you can steal and switching to Hero when a map can be handled well with a Vantage/Battalion Wrath combo. Its also great for low investment high reward builds for units you dont want to waste time grinding for better builds. As Rengor points out, Hero is a great way to make some late joining units have a very powerful Enemy Phase.

In short, Hero is the type of class people that obsess with optimization will switch into when its optimal for a map. They will then switch back to another class for other maps. If that sound tedious to you then just ignore the class. Hero is at its a core a low investment class for creating a strong Enemy Phase unit. Its not necessary to use but it can be hella strong on maddening as long as you avoid the weaknesses of a vantage/wrath build.

Edited March 26, 2022 by wissenschaft