Currently absent mechanics?

[Vexal]

So now that we've had both trailers, and time to re-analyze the first trailer with the added context and confirmations of the second trailer, there are two recurring mechanics I noticed were absent in Three Hopes

The first is a big one; The Weak Point Gauge (from here on out being called the WPG) thats been in every Nintendo Warriors title so far. When it comes to animations, we have yet to see a critical strike, and no gameplay footage shows the WPG either. If it does come back, I think it'll only be for things like Demonic Beasts, which are much larger enemies and as a result have to be approached differently from regular officers.

The second is the recurring Badge system for the licensed Warriors titles. Even AoC technically had this through points on the map you'd spend materials on, so I do find it surprising we haven't seen the text pop up for material drops or see them show up on screen considering how frequently they drop. On top of this, the Battalion's seem to be covering at least some of what the badges did, with the ones highlighted in the trailer providing defense boosts to specific weapon types, though you can only equip one at a time.

Anything else that's impactful that currently seems to be omitted in FE3H's trailers so far, or does it seem to just be these two?

Edited April 19, 2022 by Vexal

[ciphertul]

I do think we see Claude and Dimitri doing a "Crit Strike" in the 1st teaser. Claude's looks just like the Archer's for FEW.

[Vexal]

 

9 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

I do think we see Claude and Dimitri doing a "Crit Strike" in the 1st teaser. Claude's looks just like the Archer's for FEW.

While its possible it was a crit strike, its also possible those are specials. Meters never go down and the video does a lot of jump cuts, so it makes it harder to tell, especially when in FEW both specials and critical strikes gathered enemies together. Edelgard even did a special without consuming any meter in that trailer, so they were likely recording on a debug build

[ciphertul]

Just now, Vexal said:

 

While its possible it was a crit strike, its also possible those are specials. Meters never go down and the video does a lot of jump cuts, so it makes it harder to tell, especially when in FEW both specials and critical strikes gathered enemies together. Edelgard even did a special without consuming any meter in that trailer, so they were likely recording on a debug build

I highly doubt they removed crit strikes, in fact I'm more on the side that Musou attacks are getting the shaft. It would be really hard to have special ones when you have free class access.

[Vexal]

1 minute ago, ciphertul said:

I highly doubt they removed crit strikes, in fact I'm more on the side that Musou attacks are getting the shaft. It would be really hard to have special ones when you have free class access.

We....have the meter for Musou/Specials though, and even the main series still uses them even when the movesets got completely generic. I don't see them going anywhere, especially when we have *already* seen them, even uses the same sound effect they used in FEW

[ciphertul]

3 minutes ago, Vexal said:

We....have the meter for Musou/Specials though, and even the main series still uses them even when the movesets got completely generic. I don't see them going anywhere, especially when we have *already* seen them, even uses the same sound effect they used in FEW

OPPW4 dropped them, and we don't fully know what that yellow bar is. Will each character port back to their "canon" class for their Musou? Like if for some reason you have WL Balthus who would have a Brawling Musou, suddenly be a unmounted unit? You can't use Brawling while mounted.

Edited April 19, 2022 by ciphertul

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

OPPW4 dropped them, and we don't fully know what that yellow bar is. Will each character port back to their "canon" class for their Musou? Like if for some reason you have WL Balthus who would have a Brawling Musou, suddenly be a unmounted unit? You can't use Brawling while mounted.

OPPW4 dropped them, but it was also the first musou to have the 4 active skills (that we're getting as Combat Arts). And some of its skills notably functioned exactly like musous with invulnerability, higher damage, and longer charge times. SW5 has since had both musous and combat arts.

 

Also, there is absolutely no reason musous can't just function as cutscenes that are character-specific and do not take your class into account.

[ciphertul]

1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Also, there is absolutely no reason musous can't just function as cutscenes that are character-specific and do not take your class into account.

This would be a massive immersion break, "Hold on I just need to completely swap my class and gear"

[Vexal]

13 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

OPPW4 dropped them, and we don't fully know what that yellow bar is. Will each character port back to their "canon" class for their Musou?

The most common approach is what you described where its tied to the character despite how jarring it can be, though in a few games (mostly the Gundam ones iirc) it was tied to the moveset instead.

As for the yellow bar, yellow gauges are pretty much the standard "This is your special meter" across every Warriors title, and the map shows there's yellow and green pots around, which were for refills for health and special in the past game

Edited April 19, 2022 by Vexal

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, ciphertul said:

This would be a massive immersion break, "Hold on I just need to completely swap my class and gear"

Because immersion is everyone's primary concern in a genre in which one person casually beats up thousands of people at once.

[ciphertul]

1 minute ago, Vexal said:

The most common approach is what you described where its tied to the character despite how jarring it can be, though in a few games (mostly the Gundam ones iirc) it was tied to the moveset instead.

As for the yellow bar, yellow gauges are pretty much the standard "This is your special meter", and the map shows there's yellow and green pots around, which were for refills for health and special in the past game

SO you are using the past game as your argument but not using it for the Crits? Why wouldn't Crits be in this?

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, ciphertul said:

SO you are using the past game as your argument but not using it for the Crits? Why wouldn't Crits be in this?

Musous are a staple in literally every musou. Even PW4 has its equivalents.

 

Break gauges are not a staple, and I'd argue that a different implementation of stuns/crits might actually be both more fun and a better representation of FE.

[Vexal]

9 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

SO you are using the past game as your argument but not using it for the Crits? Why wouldn't Crits be in this?

It's more we have more evidence for the lack of crit strikes rather than for them being there. All we have is one animation that may or may not be a crit strike, depending on what they're reusing the animation for. The moment we see the WPG on screen (or them enter that attack and not hear the special attack sound effect or the animation at the start of a specials rather than a jumpcut to it) I'll be happy to admit I was wrong even if I personally don't like the mechanic, though I'd rather not see this game turn into "Strong V: The Game" again honestly

Edited April 19, 2022 by Vexal

[Fabulously Olivier]

Honestly, I'd rather see critical hits as random chance bonus on all attacks. 

 

"But it's random and has nothing to do with skill!"

 

Yeah, just like Lethality in the first FEW was.

[Florete]

22 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Honestly, I'd rather see critical hits as random chance bonus on all attacks. 

"But it's random and has nothing to do with skill!"

Yeah, just like Lethality in the first FEW was.

...So what? That's not a defense. Someone who doesn't want RNG procs in a Warriors game probably isn't a fan of FEW1's Lethality to begin with. Besides, the fact that FEW1's RNG procs were limited to a single DLC personal skill that can only trigger on specials and wpg hits (as opposed to literally every attack as you suggest) is pretty noteworthy by itself.

For the record, I'm not a fan of this idea. It's fine in regular FE when controlling your engagements is the whole point of the game, but the hectic nature of Warriors games isn't conducive to such a mechanic.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Florete said:

...So what? That's not a defense. Someone who doesn't want RNG procs in a Warriors game probably isn't a fan of FEW1's Lethality to begin with. Besides, the fact that FEW1's RNG procs were limited to a single DLC personal skill that can only trigger on specials and wpg hits (as opposed to literally every attack as you suggest) is pretty noteworthy by itself.

For the record, I'm not a fan of this idea. It's fine in regular FE when controlling your engagements is the whole point of the game, but the hectic nature of Warriors games isn't conducive to such a mechanic.

The problem with that is that the single DLC personal skill in question is a player's main damage source in all endgame content. It very much isn't optional, and is one of two skills that pretty entirely determine which characters are and are not effective units. 

 

Also, what? Like, seriously, what? Real time action games have had random critical hits for decades, and most of them are far more skill-dependant than any Warriors game. As an unplanned factor, it's less fine in a turn-based tactics game than it is in a hectic action power fantasy.

[tipperthescales]

Wait, why are we saying musous are gone when:

- the 'critical hit' cut-in (used for Warrior Specials in FEW) is still here just in the 3H style; and

Spoiler

- Partner Specials exist?

Spoiler

I do think some sort of crit mechanic is still possibly in given the orange / cyan swirls associated with those triggering in FEW have been seen in both trailers, but the camera angles for those moments do feel more like activation of a musou...

And we still haven't really seen enough footage of an officer matchup (particularly one with an advantageous matchup) to comment on WPG at this stage.

===

On the point of the yellow gauges possibly not being musou meter, what is ciphertul's proposed explanation for them?

===

2 hours ago, Vexal said:

...so they were likely recording on a debug build

Reviewing trailer 1, there's a few odd spots where the house leaders have blue aura but no indication that there's ?awakening meter drain, and war Dimitri also has an unusual yellow aura (though the sound could be from his picking up an item (but none of his gauges appear to rise), so this I agree with.

[Florete]

6 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The problem with that is that the single DLC personal skill in question is a player's main damage source in all endgame content. It very much isn't optional, and is one of two skills that pretty entirely determine which characters are and are not effective units. 

I played through all the content in FEW1 and don't remember using Lethality that much (I used Luna and effective damage to clear content). But if that is true, that makes it even worse; clearing endgame content shouldn't be reliant on a single skill, much less one that is RNG based.

But, like, I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate. I remember Minerva being considered more-or-less the best character in the game and her Luck is crap, so she wouldn't use Lethality well.

8 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Also, what? Like, seriously, what? Real time action games have had random critical hits for decades, and most of them are far more skill-dependant than any Warriors game. As an unplanned factor, it's less fine in a turn-based tactics game than it is in a hectic action power fantasy.

In my experience playing games I see RNG procs much more often in strategy based games. When I do see RNG mechanics in real-time action games I tend to avoid them unless they're high enough for me to consider them reliable.

And, well, I disagree on that last part. I think it's better in a context where you can take your time and plan for different outcomes than one where things are just happening.

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, Florete said:

I played through all the content in FEW1 and don't remember using Lethality that much (I used Luna and effective damage to clear content). But if that is true, that makes it even worse; clearing endgame content shouldn't be reliant on a single skill, much less one that is RNG based.

But, like, I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate. I remember Minerva being considered more-or-less the best character in the game and her Luck is crap, so she wouldn't use Lethality well.

In my experience playing games I see RNG procs much more often in strategy based games. When I do see RNG mechanics in real-time action games I tend to avoid them unless they're high enough for me to consider them reliable.

And, well, I disagree on that last part. I think it's better in a context where you can take your time and plan for different outcomes than one where things are just happening.

Minerva and Camilla have the best attack in the game (Wyvern Rider dash attack). It was broken because of crowd clear. It's funny that you mention Minerva, because the entire reason she's distinctly better than Camilla is a higher Luck stat, which makes her better at dueling when she has to. Her luck isn't great, but it's also not far enough below average as to be unusable (looking at you Frederick, Robin, Tharja, and ironically Niles).

 

Also, Dynasty Warriors is basically 3rd person Diablo. It's the same hectic, grindy power fantasy against massive hordes of foes. Diablo-likes have no issues with random procs. There is no reason why a Warriors game should have issues with them either.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Florete]

41 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Minerva and Camilla have the best attack in the game (Wyvern Rider dash attack). It was broken because of crowd clear. It's funny that you mention Minerva, because the entire reason she's distinctly better than Camilla is a higher Luck stat, which makes her better at dueling when she has to. Her luck isn't great, but it's also not far enough below average as to be unusable (looking at you Frederick, Robin, Tharja, and ironically Niles).

Minerva has both better Str and Luck than Camilla, and Luck is used for Luna. Luna in FEW1 is so potent that, yes, even the low Luck characters get enough of a dps boost from it to typically make it worth using on them.

43 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Also, Dynasty Warriors is basically 3rd person Diablo. It's the same hectic, grindy power fantasy against massive hordes of foes. Diablo-likes have no issues with random procs. There is no reason why a Warriors game should have issues with them either.

I've never played Diablo. I guess this is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

[Vexal]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

For the record, I'm not a fan of this idea. It's fine in regular FE when controlling your engagements is the whole point of the game, but the hectic nature of Warriors games isn't conducive to such a mechanic.

The main Warriors series has actually had RNG mechanics for decades; specifically within the elemental based weapon attributes, though there's occasionally other attributes that are tied to RNG. You usually needed an extra attribute to make them gauranteed (which usually had a requirement such as keeping your musou gauge full), though their proc rates were naturally high to begin with. That said they were pretty much always meta to have, especially Wind (bypassed defense) and Slay (just a fat randomized damage increase, quite literally a crit.)

1 hour ago, tipperthescales said:

Reviewing trailer 1, there's a few odd spots where the house leaders have blue aura but no indication that there's ?awakening meter drain, and war Dimitri also has an unusual yellow aura (though the sound could be from his picking up an item (but none of his gauges appear to rise), so this I agree with.

The blue gauge is pretty inconsistent in its appearance, as we don't see it with Shez or Dedue's specials, but for everyone else it shows up on special activation, assuming what we see from Shez and Dedue are specials and not combat arts anyways. As for Dimitri, he seems to be under a a buff of sorts, as his weapon's glowing red instead of the usual orange. It's even glowing orange in the scene right after where he lacks the visual effects

Edited April 20, 2022 by Vexal

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'm not sure how long this has been on the store page, but it could provide a substitute for skill crests from other Nintendo Warriors games. If you're actually building up services in the base camp, that could be a progression system more akin to Islands from Pirate Warriors 4. Progression could also happen either army-wide or per character via stat boosting items and shrine bonuses.

 

Strengthen your bonds in and out of battle

Develop and build battle-tested relationships with other Fire Emblem: Three Houses characters as you fight for the future of Fódlan. Deepen the relationships between characters to give yourself a tactical advantage on the battlefield and to see them open up in support conversations. Bring characters closer together by pairing them up in battle or by spending time together at base camp. Develop your base camp and train, shop, and prepare each of your team members before jumping into the heat of battle.

[Use the Falchion]

I know it won't be in the game due to it possibly being a game-breaker thing, but I'd love to see some form of Data Transfer. Even if it was just for NG+, I'd love to have the ability to transfer some of my skills for characters from Three Houses over to Three Hopes. Let my Hilda already have S-Rank Black Magic and S+ Axes from the start, so her options automatically expand. Let my Petra come with all the necessary requirements for Bow Knight, Wyvern Lord, and/or Assassin so I can just have fun wasting enemies like that instead of focusing on grinding. 

But yes, I'm aware of how much of a story-breaker this would be, particularly for those who have maxed out every skill on one or all units. (Not to mention that the data bonus we're getting will be small and for things like Owl Feathers and whatnot.) 

[Fabulously Olivier]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:39 PM, Vexal said:

The main Warriors series has actually had RNG mechanics for decades; specifically within the elemental based weapon attributes, though there's occasionally other attributes that are tied to RNG. You usually needed an extra attribute to make them gauranteed (which usually had a requirement such as keeping your musou gauge full), though their proc rates were naturally high to begin with. That said they were pretty much always meta to have, especially Wind (bypassed defense) and Slay (just a fat randomized damage increase, quite literally a crit.)

The blue gauge is pretty inconsistent in its appearance, as we don't see it with Shez or Dedue's specials, but for everyone else it shows up on special activation, assuming what we see from Shez and Dedue are specials and not combat arts anyways. As for Dimitri, he seems to be under a a buff of sorts, as his weapon's glowing red instead of the usual orange. It's even glowing orange in the scene right after where he lacks the visual effects

You make a good point that I'm surprised I hadn't considered. Random on-hit effects are a staple of mainline Warriors, and they'd actually work better here due to having stats and skills to influence them further. It would also be a great way to adapt skills like Sword Crit +10.

 

We also have confirmation of characters having elemental effects in their preferred class now - Hubert with dark, Hilda with lightning, etc.