Perkilator Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 After watching this video, I decided I should do my own take on it, but to also shoot for a year instead of just 6 months. A lot of this is mostly surface level, but I wanted to see what you guys thought of it. Characters Spoiler Mario Donkey Kong Link Samus Yoshi Kirby Fox Pikachu Ness Captain Falcon Peach Bowser Ice Climbers Zelda / Sheik Scizor Luigi Jigglypuff Wario Diddy Kong Ayumi Tachibana Marth Ganondorf Mewtwo Mr. Game & Watch Young Link Falco Roy Stages Spoiler Battlefield Princess Peach’s Castle Rainbow Cruise Kongo Falls Temple Brinstar Yoshi’s Island Green Greens Corneria Pokémon Stadium Onett Mute City Condor's Peak Mushroom Kingdom II Jungle Japes Great Bay Brinstar Depths Yoshi’s Story Fountain of Dreams Venom Sprout Tower Fourside Big Blue Archanea Flat Zone Final Destination Peach’s Castle (64) Kongo Jungle (64) Hyrule Castle (64) Planet Zebes (64) Super Happy Tree (64) Dream Land (64) Sector Z (64) Saffron City (64) Mushroom Kingdom (64) Meta Crystal (64) Items Spoiler Assist Trophy Lakitu & Spinies King K. Rool Skull Kid Metroid King Dedede Andross Jeff Samurai Goroh Caeda Octopus Devil Ducks Dr. Wright Saki Amamiya Sukapon Urban Champion Beam Sword Crate & Barrel Capsule Food Home-Run Bat Motion-Sensor Bomb Party Ball Ray Gun Banana Peel Super Mushroom Poison Mushroom Bob-omb Fire Flower Freezie Green Shell Red Shell Metal Box Super Star Hammer Bunny Hood Deku Nut Heart Container Screw Attack Maxim Tomato Star Rod Warp Star Smart Bomb Poké Ball Ivysaur Charizard Squirtle Electrode Weezing Chansey Goldeen Staryu Snorlax Articuno Zapdos Moltres Mew Chikorita Cyndaquil Togepi Bellossom Unown Wobbuffet Entei Raikou Suicune Lugia Ho-Oh Mr. Saturn Killing Edge Cloaking Device Flipper Lip’s Stick Super Scope Modes Spoiler Solo Arcade Classic Adventure All-Star Events Stadium Home-Run Contest Targets Multi-Man Melee 100-Man 3-Minute Endless Cruel Training Vs. Mode Regular Melee Time Stock Stamina Coin Special Melee Tag Turbo Volleyball All-Star Vs. Tournament Silly Melee Custom Rules Name Entry AI System Sparring New AI Trophies Gallery Lottery Collection Options Rumble Sound Screen Display Language Data Snapshots Movies How to Play Special Behind the Scenes Records Sound Test Erase Data Adventure Mode Spoiler Stages Stage 1: Mushroom Kingdom Side-scrolling platforming stage where you fight Goombas, Koopas and Paratroopas, as well as a group of Yoshi halfway through Vs. Mario and Peach (free-for-all) on Princess Peach’s Castle If you reach the flagpole in a time with X:X2:XX, you fight Luigi in a 1v1 instead Stage 2: Kongo Jungle Minecart level where you fight Kremlings and Klaptraps while avoiding Zingers and the occasional barrels; Barrel Cannons also appear in this stage Vs. Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong on Kongo Falls Boss battle against King K. Rool on Jungle Japes Ω Stage 3: Underground Maze Finding the Triforce in one of six rooms, where it could be located at random; if you enter the wrong room, you’ll end up fighting an illusion of Ganondorf, which is signified by the Triforce being purple It’s possible to fight Wario in the Triforce room if you successfully avoid Ganondorf’s illusions Vs. Link and Zelda/Sheik (free-for-all) on Temple If you've unlocked Marth and/or Roy, you fight them on Archanea instead Stage 4: Brinstar Vs. Samus on Brinstar Depths Boss battle against Ridley on Brinstar Ω Escaping Brinstar shortly after with a 3:00 time limit, avoiding Metroids Stage 5: Green Greens Traveling through Green Greens (as it appears in Kirby’s Dream Land) and fighting different enemies Vs. Kirby x15 on Green Greens If the player defeats the horde in less than 2:30, they then fight a giant Kirby on the stage Boss battle against King Dedede on Fountain of Dreams Ω Stage 6: Lylat System Vs. Fox on Corneria Vs. metal Fox and Falco on Venom, while protecting the Great Fox from taking too much damage Stage 7: Sprout Tower An ascension to the top of Sprout Tower, where you occasionally get interrupted by fights against Pikachu and Jigglypuff Boss battle against Ho-Oh on Sprout Tower Ω Vs. Scizor on Pokémon Stadium If you beat Ho-Oh on Hard or higher w/o losing a life, you fight Mewtwo instead Stage 8: F-ZERO Grand Prix Reaching the finish line while avoiding F-ZERO racers along the way Vs. Captain Falcon on either Mute City or Big Blue Stage 9: Onett Vs. Ness on Onett Fighting off Starmen on Fourside with Ness’s help If you found the Triforce room back in Stage 3 w/o facing the illusions, you fight Ayumi in a 1v1 instead Stage 10: Icicle Mountain Fighting off Topi and Polar Bears while the screen scrolls vertically to the top Vs. Ice Climbers on Condor’s Peak Stage 11: Battlefield Vs. Fighting Wire Frames x15 Vs. Metal Mario Bros. Stage 12: Final Destination Vs. Bowser, Mewtwo and Ganondorf If you went through Adventure in less than 20 minutes w/o using a continue, you fight Giga Bowser afterwards Enemies Goomba Koopa Troopa Paratroopa Kritter Klaptrap Zinger ReDead Octorok Like Like Metroid Waddle Dee Waddle Doo Bronto Burt Gordo Bellsprout Gastly Rattata Starman Topi Polar Bear Unlockable characters & stages Spoiler Characters Luigi Reach the flagpole in X:X2:XX and beat Luigi in less than a minute 25 Vs. Matches Jigglypuff Clear Classic or Adventure at least once 50 Vs. Matches Wario Clear Classic or Adventure as Mario w/o continues 100 Vs. Matches Diddy Kong Clear Classic or Adventure as 10 characters 200 Vs. Matches Ayumi Clear the Underground Maze w/o running into Ganondorf’s illusions Collect 100 trophies 300 Vs. Matches Falco Clear 100-Man Smash 400 Vs. Matches Marth Clear Classic or Adventure as all 15 starter characters 500 Vs. Matches Young Link Clear the Underground Maze as Link or Zelda w/o running into Ganondorf’s illusions 600 Vs. Matches Ganondorf Unlock and clear Triforce Gathering 700 Vs. Matches Mewtwo Play 20 combined hours of Vs. Matches See the Legendary Pokémon Mew 800 Vs. Matches Roy Clear Classic or Adventure as Marth w/o continues 900 Vs. Matches Mr. Game & Watch Clear Classic, Adventure and Targets as every other character 1000 Vs. Matches Stages Mushroom Kingdom II Obtain the Birdo trophy Jungle Japes Unlock Diddy Kong Great Bay Clear the Underground Maze as Young Link w/o running into Ganondorf’s illusions Brinstar Depths Beat Ridley and escape in Adventure Mode as Samus w/o losing a life Yoshi’s Story Hit over 1312.3ft. in Home-Run Contest Fountain of Dreams Use 20 Copy Abilities as Kirby Venom Unlock Falco Sprout Tower Clear 3-Minute Melee Fourside Unlock and clear Space Travelers Big Blue Reach the finish line in Adventure Stage 8 in less than 2:30 Archanea Win a Stamina battle between Marth and Roy Flat Zone Unlock Mr. Game & Watch Final Destination Clear all events Past Stages Clear Classic or Adventure as every character Cheat Codes Spoiler Playable Giga Bowser Select Bowser for Classic Mode after completing the game 99% and then, while Classic Mode is loading, input the code LAZY while holding down the C stick You’ll then be taken into Giga Bowser Mode, where you go up against every fighter at once…with all of Giga Bowser’s perks intact Silly Melee unlock On the title screen, input the code ZYLLY while holding down the C stick Sound Test After completing the game to 100%, input BA←←A↓ on the “Sound” tab while holding C Hidden Trophies Mario & Yoshi: Hold up the second “Game!” or “Time!” appears after winning a Vs. Match as Mario Samus Unmasked: Input XXXXXX on Samus’ Congratulations screen while holding down the C stick Tamagon: On the title screen, press the C stick and then hold Z while inputting ←↑→↓ with the C stick and press the C stick afterwards Solid Snake: On the title screen, input ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start while holding down the C stick Sonic the Hedgehog: On the title screen, input BA→AC↑↓A while holding Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 If I recall correctly, the rush was the reason for moveset clone characters like Falco, Young Link and Ganondorf. I don't think they would've been in the game if they had been given another year of development, though Roy would probably have appeared anyway in order to advertise his game, which was soon to release in Japan at the time Melee released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindcoco.studios Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said: though Roy would probably have appeared anyway in order to advertise his game, which was soon to release in Japan at the time Melee released I wonder if Eliwood would've been the actual choice if they delayed the game. He overlaps with Marth's moveset more than Roy, so if they were developing FE7 during Melee's development, it could've happened... maybe? If Melee had another year of dev, it would have come out in November 2002, versus FE7's April 2003. Which is very similar to the actual timeline of Melee's November 2001 and FE6's March 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Marth 64 Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, blindcoco.studios said: I wonder if Eliwood would've been the actual choice if they delayed the game. He overlaps with Marth's moveset more than Roy, so if they were developing FE7 during Melee's development, it could've happened... maybe? If Melee had another year of dev, it would have come out in November 2002, versus FE7's April 2003. Which is very similar to the actual timeline of Melee's November 2001 and FE6's March 2002. Technically, if they did that. I would think Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade would have been Japan only like The Binding Blade since Melee was the actual reason why Fire Emblem games are getting localized after The Binding Blade released and how Western Players got attached to Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones would have been the first Fire Emblem title to be released in the west instead of the Blazing Blade. I still liked Roy as a better fighter than Eliwood since Eliwood wasn't playable in The Binding Blade and plus, I think Roy's popularity would have been completely different than we have right now. Also, I would still have the 26 Fighters in the roster as the same as it is, but maybe add a few fighters that I totally think it should not be existing fighters from later games. I definitely totally realistically think Ayumi from Famicom Detective Club would fit in and maybe add some Fighters debut from the GameCube console since I know that Roy was the only fighter from the GBA title in Melee (but he's technically counted as a GameCube debut Fighter since The Binding Blade was released after Super Smash Bros. Melee). But, I definitely do think Solid Snake would might make it in the development since he was the reason why he's in Brawl because of Kojima was late to request to add him in back then in Melee. But I would not add an another Pokémon in the Melee Roster after Metwo and Pichu. Edited April 24, 2022 by King Marth 64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 Incidentally, I'm really glad that Melee came out when it did. Having a game with so much content, so many features, orchestrated music, nearly 200 names are in those credits, what an accomplishment. I don't think it's a controversial opinion to say it's the best Gamecube game in spite of its early launch. It wasn't literally a launch title, but the gamecube was only two weeks old when Melee released in the US. That pretty much makes it a launch title in practice. Pre order culture didn't exist in 2001, things generally sold slower with lower available stock back then. Raise your hand if Melee was your first Gamecube game, because it was certainly mine. One huge character addition possibility wasn't in the video. Solid Snake. Hideo Kojima approached Sakurai about adding Snake during Melee's development, but Sakurai declined because it was too late to make a reality. So if you're giving the game another hypothetical 6 or 12 months of development, then Snake is certainly a top ten suggestion in terms of likelihood. I would also suggest Meta Knight as a top tier possibility alongside Wario and Diddy Kong. Firstly because he too is a Nintendo character whose rights would not need negotiating. But also because he can use Kirby's animation rig as a base. 2001 also saw the release of Nightmare in Dreamland, the remake of his debut game, as well as the anime where he's a recurring character. 2001 was the year he started to become a big staple in Kirby media, so I could see Sakurai opting for him over Dedede who would take more work to realize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 (edited) Funny thing about that video (if it is the video I'm thinking of, I haven't checked), is that Melee did have an extra six months of development. It's called the PAL Version, and they actually did change quite a lot of things. Of course there was no new characters or stages, obviously, but they did touch up a lot of the gameplay and things that didn't work in the NSTC version. As far as other characters go, I think Wario and Diddy Kong would have been the most likely addition. Possible King Dedede or Meta Knight (though probably not both). Those four are definitely the biggest gaps in the Melee roster. Ayumi Tachibana seems to be getting a lot of attention recently because Sakurai considered her over twenty years ago and someone made a skin for her in Melee, but I'm not sure how realistic her chances ever were. For starters, who is she? Has anyone here played Famicom Detective Club? Does she actually have any unique abilities or powers that could work for Smash? She obviously wasn't at the head of the list when Brawl came around and her series both never made it to the west (well it took what like another twenty years until a remake was localized) nor did it ever get any sequels (that I can recall). So I don't she was ever that popular or likely. Just an idea Sakurai toyed with briefly and quickly forgot. 2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Incidentally, I'm really glad that Melee came out when it did. Having a game with so much content, so many features, orchestrated music, nearly 200 names are in those credits, what an accomplishment. I don't think it's a controversial opinion to say it's the best Gamecube game in spite of its early launch. It wasn't literally a launch title, but the gamecube was only two weeks old when Melee released in the US. That pretty much makes it a launch title in practice. Pre order culture didn't exist in 2001, things generally sold slower with lower available stock back then. Raise your hand if Melee was your first Gamecube game, because it was certainly mine. One huge character addition possibility wasn't in the video. Solid Snake. Hideo Kojima approached Sakurai about adding Snake during Melee's development, but Sakurai declined because it was too late to make a reality. So if you're giving the game another hypothetical 6 or 12 months of development, then Snake is certainly a top ten suggestion in terms of likelihood. I would also suggest Meta Knight as a top tier possibility alongside Wario and Diddy Kong. Firstly because he too is a Nintendo character whose rights would not need negotiating. But also because he can use Kirby's animation rig as a base. 2001 also saw the release of Nightmare in Dreamland, the remake of his debut game, as well as the anime where he's a recurring character. 2001 was the year he started to become a big staple in Kirby media, so I could see Sakurai opting for him over Dedede who would take more work to realize. If we did get Melee Snake, then I'm kind of curious as to what his recovery would be. His current recovery is already contrived, coming from an enemy drone in Metal Gear Solid 2 that he never remotely jumps onto in his own game (or, I think, even encounters, as they're only in Raiden's part of the game) and wouldn't even logistically be able to carry his weight. Though it is still a fun and creative idea. But Metal Gear Solid 2 was released the same month as Melee, so it's unlikely they would have been able to take anything from that game, meaning they'd need to contrive another recovery from things he vaguely does or just outright make something up. Or go back to the earlier 2D games, he did have a Hang glider in Metal Gear 2. Edited April 24, 2022 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 11 hours ago, blindcoco.studios said: I wonder if Eliwood would've been the actual choice if they delayed the game. He overlaps with Marth's moveset more than Roy, so if they were developing FE7 during Melee's development, it could've happened... maybe? If Melee had another year of dev, it would have come out in November 2002, versus FE7's April 2003. Which is very similar to the actual timeline of Melee's November 2001 and FE6's March 2002. True; it probably would've been Eliwood rather than Roy, and given that they would've still had limited time to make him and his moveset, he could have been a clone of Marth like Roy was. I'm not entirely sure though, given that moveset clones were originally a product of the rush. 9 hours ago, King Marth 64 said: Technically, if they did that. I would think Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade would have been Japan only like The Binding Blade since Melee was the actual reason why Fire Emblem games are getting localized after The Binding Blade released and how Western Players got attached to Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones would have been the first Fire Emblem title to be released in the west instead of the Blazing Blade. I still liked Roy as a better fighter than Eliwood since Eliwood wasn't playable in The Binding Blade and plus, I think Roy's popularity would have been completely different than we have right now. Yeah; Eliwood's game would've been Japan-only, as Smash Bros. Melee introduced western players to Fire Emblem; giving it enough attention in the west to make Nintendo decide to release FE games outside Japan. So, if Melee had been given another year of development, the same phenomenon probably would've occurred, but Sacred Stones would've been the first FE game released outside Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Jotari said: Ayumi Tachibana seems to be getting a lot of attention recently because Sakurai considered her over twenty years ago and someone made a skin for her in Melee, but I'm not sure how realistic her chances ever were. For starters, who is she? Has anyone here played Famicom Detective Club? Does she actually have any unique abilities or powers that could work for Smash? She obviously wasn't at the head of the list when Brawl came around and her series both never made it to the west (well it took what like another twenty years until a remake was localized) nor did it ever get any sequels (that I can recall). So I don't she was ever that popular or likely. Just an idea Sakurai toyed with briefly and quickly forgot. I don't have any insight to provide here, but this reminds me of how when Famicom Detective Club was announced for Switch, I thought "No Way, is this Portopia!?" The seminal Visual Novel/PC Adventure game for Japan? It is NOT Portopia, but if Ayumi Tachibana hailed from that one I would totally get it. That's one of the most important games ever released. Many old school Japanese game developers cite that game as one of their first/most influential games they've ever played. Most famously Eiji Aonuma and Hideo Kojima. Incidentally I think Sakurai may be too young to have been part of the Portopia Zeitgeist. Quote If we did get Melee Snake, then I'm kind of curious as to what his recovery would be. His current recovery is already contrived, coming from an enemy drone in Metal Gear Solid 2 that he never remotely jumps onto in his own game (or, I think, even encounters, as they're only in Raiden's part of the game) and wouldn't even logistically be able to carry his weight. Though it is still a fun and creative idea. But Metal Gear Solid 2 was released the same month as Melee, so it's unlikely they would have been able to take anything from that game, meaning they'd need to contrive another recovery from things he vaguely does or just outright make something up. Or go back to the earlier 2D games, he did have a Hang glider in Metal Gear 2. That's a good theory with the hang glider, and would have fit in particularly well with Brawl's roster of gliding characters. I also remember the parachute item from Metal Gear 1, which could behave similar to Peach's parasol state. Just don't know how Snake would gain height, beyond blowing yourself up with C4. That works from a game design perspective, but it's not very intuitive from the pick up and play experience of most characters. Players would see that the C4 hurts them and think "that can't be the answer". Ness also visually hurts himself with his recovery, but it doesn't deal actual damage percentage. I can imagine the youtube thumbnails now: Remember when Snake had to HURT himself to recover in Melee?? My actual answer to this question is just the Cypher again lol. Snake does encounter one in the Tanker section of MGS2, it's just only in a cutscene. And while I get that the Cypher is never used this way in the source material and wouldn't make sense in real life, we're also talking about Smash Bros where Super Mario's Up B is "uuhm...he just...Jumps...again." Donkey Kong's Up B is (still to this day!) him outstretching his arms and spinning like a helicopter to gain lift. Cartoon logic is allowed, and not every Up B is being creative or true to the source material. That Cypher cutscene happens to be the last thing you see in the famous MGS2 demo included with Zone of the Enders, released in March of 2001. Furthermore, Sakurai could be made privy to materials of an unreleased MGS game, because that's exactly what happened in Brawl. MGS4 came out after Brawl, but has the Gekko enemy appear in Shadow Moses, and that incredible re-arrangement of the MGS4 Love Theme being placed front and center as the the main theme for that stage. I'm guessing Kojima was very active in suggesting ideas for Snake's inclusion in Smash. I'd be curious if he is the one that came up with the Cypher recovery. And who wrote those wonderful codec conversations? Such a huge step up from Melee's Star Fox easter egg. Edited April 24, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindcoco.studios Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 1 hour ago, vanguard333 said: he could have been a clone of Marth like Roy was. I'm not entirely sure though, given that moveset clones were originally a product of the rush. Oh! Then if they had extra time to do a wholly new moveset, Lyn or Hector could've been chosen instead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I don't have any insight to provide here, but this reminds me of how when Famicom Detective Club was announced for Switch, I thought "No Way, is this Portopia!?" The seminal Visual Novel/PC Adventure game for Japan? It is NOT Portopia, but if Ayumi Tachibana hailed from that one I would totally get it. That's one of the most important games ever released. Many old school Japanese game developers cite that game as one of their first/most influential games they've ever played. Most famously Eiji Aonuma and Hideo Kojima. Incidentally I think Sakurai may be too young to have been part of the Portopia Zeitgeist. That's a good theory with the hang glider, and would have fit in particularly well with Brawl's roster of gliding characters. I also remember the parachute item from Metal Gear 1, which could behave similar to Peach's parasol state. Just don't know how Snake would gain height, beyond blowing yourself up with C4. That works from a game design perspective, but it's not very intuitive from the pick up and play experience of most characters. Players would see that the C4 hurts them and think "that can't be the answer". Ness also visually hurts himself with his recovery, but it doesn't deal actual damage percentage. I can imagine the youtube thumbnails now: Remember when Snake had to HURT himself to recover in Melee?? My actual answer to this question is just the Cypher again lol. Snake does encounter one in the Tanker section of MGS2, it's just only in a cutscene. And while I get that the Cypher is never used this way in the source material and wouldn't make sense in real life, we're also talking about Smash Bros where Super Mario's Up B is "uuhm...he just...Jumps...again." Donkey Kong's Up B is (still to this day!) him outstretching his arms and spinning like a helicopter to gain lift. Cartoon logic is allowed, and not every Up B is being creative or true to the source material. That Cypher cutscene happens to be the last thing you see in the famous MGS2 demo included with Zone of the Enders, released in March of 2001. Furthermore, Sakurai could be made privy to materials of an unreleased MGS game, because that's exactly what happened in Brawl. MGS4 came out after Brawl, but has the Gekko enemy appear in Shadow Moses, and that incredible re-arrangement of the MGS4 Love Theme being placed front and center as the the main theme for that stage. I'm guessing Kojima was very active in suggesting ideas for Snake's inclusion in Smash. I'd be curious if he is the one that came up with the Cypher recovery. And who wrote those wonderful codec conversations? Such a huge step up from Melee's Star Fox easter egg. Sakurai also was privy to details of Binding Blade prerelease, up to and including getting a special tanks in the credits, yet apparently didn't know enough to give Roy a long range attack >.> And in fact made him specifically a close range fighter. Even assuming Sakurai did know or Kojima did suggest ideas, I don't see the Cipher being the recovery, since it's not something that jumps out as a recovery. Six or so years when the game has been released and digested into the subconscious it makes more sense for someone to go "oh hey, how about this", but when the game is a mishmash of planned ideas (and let's not forget Metal Gear Solid 2 had a tonne changed in development) one minor enemy just wouldn't jump out as anything particularly important or useful. We probably would have gotten a Big Shell stage to play on though, that would have been cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 4 hours ago, vanguard333 said: Yeah; Eliwood's game would've been Japan-only, as Smash Bros. Melee introduced western players to Fire Emblem; giving it enough attention in the west to make Nintendo decide to release FE games outside Japan. So, if Melee had been given another year of development, the same phenomenon probably would've occurred, but Sacred Stones would've been the first FE game released outside Japan. Worst timeline. 16 hours ago, blindcoco.studios said: I wonder if Eliwood would've been the actual choice if they delayed the game. He overlaps with Marth's moveset more than Roy, so if they were developing FE7 during Melee's development, it could've happened... maybe? If Melee had another year of dev, it would have come out in November 2002, versus FE7's April 2003. Which is very similar to the actual timeline of Melee's November 2001 and FE6's March 2002. Conversely, sticking with Roy would make more sense than before, since his game was already out at this point. Honestly, I think 25 (26 if we count Zelda/Sheik separately) is the perfect roster size for Melee. It's already more than double what the original N64 game brought. Plus, even the old characters got a B-side attack added to their kits. The clones are kind of a bummer, admittedly, so if they fleshed out Ganondorf and brought in Wario and King Dedede in place of Dr. Mario and Pichu, I wouldn't complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Worst timeline. Conversely, sticking with Roy would make more sense than before, since his game was already out at this point. Honestly, I think 25 (26 if we count Zelda/Sheik separately) is the perfect roster size for Melee. It's already more than double what the original N64 game brought. Plus, even the old characters got a B-side attack added to their kits. The clones are kind of a bummer, admittedly, so if they fleshed out Ganondorf and brought in Wario and King Dedede in place of Dr. Mario and Pichu, I wouldn't complain. Really the only thing they needed to do with Ganondorf was give him Mewtwo's Shadow Ball as his neutral special. I'm not sure how difficult it would have been to rig up his model so it looked good using that attack, but if he had that and they changed the sound effect for Dark Dive to be that of his hovering in Ocarina of Time (which should be trivial) then he'd be a fairly good representation of Ocarina of Time Ganondorf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 I could see maybe 3-4 new fighters on top of Dr. Mario and Pichu being swapped out and Ganondorf getting a more distinct moveset. Given the chance, I'd probably swap Falco out for Wolf, or maybe even Krystal to promote Star Fox Adventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 On 4/24/2022 at 5:16 PM, Jotari said: Really the only thing they needed to do with Ganondorf was give him Mewtwo's Shadow Ball as his neutral special. I'm not sure how difficult it would have been to rig up his model so it looked good using that attack, but if he had that and they changed the sound effect for Dark Dive to be that of his hovering in Ocarina of Time (which should be trivial) then he'd be a fairly good representation of Ocarina of Time Ganondorf. That would've been a great way to handle him. I'd have loved to see them get a jump start on a sword in his Smash attacks, but... wait, did he use a sword in OoT? 3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said: I could see maybe 3-4 new fighters on top of Dr. Mario and Pichu being swapped out and Ganondorf getting a more distinct moveset. Given the chance, I'd probably swap Falco out for Wolf, or maybe even Krystal to promote Star Fox Adventures. Each of them offers something different - Falco is a bird, Wolf is villain rep, and Krystal is a girl in a game with very few of them. I'm not well-versed in Star Fox at all, but even as someone who likes to play as Wolf, I'm not sure about Falco losing his spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: That would've been a great way to handle him. I'd have loved to see them get a jump start on a sword in his Smash attacks, but... wait, did he use a sword in OoT? Only giant swords as Ganon, and those are so trident inspired they're barely even swords. He does seem to have a small one in his official art though. But even if did use it, actually giving it to him while still pitting him in the game would have been difficult development wise as he was never intended to be in the game and only got in as a clone. Giving him Mewtwo's Shadow Ball (or a dark version of Fox's reflector) would be much easier as those attacks already exist (and are barely animated in Fox's case). Edited April 26, 2022 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 I recall that Sonic was considered for Melee, so he could have been included as the very first third party fighter in the franchise, which would have been quite a gesture from Nintendo due to his status as the mascot of their former rival SEGA. There are a few other characters, like King Dedede, Meta Knight, Wario, and Diddy Kong, who feel like they would have been fitting reps in Melee as well. 2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: That would've been a great way to handle him. I'd have loved to see them get a jump start on a sword in his Smash attacks, but... wait, did he use a sword in OoT? Each of them offers something different - Falco is a bird, Wolf is villain rep, and Krystal is a girl in a game with very few of them. I'm not well-versed in Star Fox at all, but even as someone who likes to play as Wolf, I'm not sure about Falco losing his spot. The sword he's best known for is the "SpaceWorld Sword" due to its appearance in the SpaceWorld 2000 trailer that lives on in legend to this day. But what does Falco being a bird offer gameplay-wise? If all they wanted was a clone, I think Wolf would have been a cooler and more novel inclusion, especially since he shows up in the opening video. And Krystal not only would have been novel for being one of the then-few female fighters but again would have served a distinct purpose to promote Adventures. Just to be clear, I'm not against Falco being in Smash, I just feel like Wolf and Krystal would have been better inclusions to prioritize first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 5 hours ago, Lord_Brand said: But what does Falco being a bird offer gameplay-wise? If all they wanted was a clone, I think Wolf would have been a cooler and more novel inclusion, especially since he shows up in the opening video. And Krystal not only would have been novel for being one of the then-few female fighters but again would have served a distinct purpose to promote Adventures. Just to be clear, I'm not against Falco being in Smash, I just feel like Wolf and Krystal would have been better inclusions to prioritize first. My point is, they all add very little gameplay-wise, it's a difference of flavor. Star Fox can either get representatives of different animal types, different loyalties, or different genders. I'm inclined to favor keeping Falco, but in a hypothetical universe where we got Wolf or Krystal first instead, I wouldn't mind. 8 hours ago, Jotari said: Only giant swords as Ganon, and those are so trident inspired they're barely even swords. He does seem to have a small one in his official art though. But even if did use it, actually giving it to him while still pitting him in the game would have been difficult development wise as he was never intended to be in the game and only got in as a clone. Giving him Mewtwo's Shadow Ball (or a dark version of Fox's reflector) would be much easier as those attacks already exist (and are barely animated in Fox's case). Okay, thanks for the clarification. I do think "mix and match" movesets would've been a way to make the "clones" feel more unique. Like, Young Link could've gotten a Down-B like Samus', or Pichu's Neutral-B could've traveled like Luigi's fireball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: My point is, they all add very little gameplay-wise, it's a difference of flavor. Star Fox can either get representatives of different animal types, different loyalties, or different genders. I'm inclined to favor keeping Falco, but in a hypothetical universe where we got Wolf or Krystal first instead, I wouldn't mind. I don't see Krystal getting in even in a timeline where melee is delayed a year. Unlike Fire Emblem and Roy, Star Fox Adventures wasn't even intending to be a Star Fox game until late in development. I do think Wolf would have been a better choice than Falco. Quote Okay, thanks for the clarification. I do think "mix and match" movesets would've been a way to make the "clones" feel more unique. Like, Young Link could've gotten a Down-B like Samus', or Pichu's Neutral-B could've traveled like Luigi's fireball. That's really how clones were handled in Smash 64. Like 25% of that game were characters directly built off of other characters, but people just don't notice or care because they largely had unique specials (even to this day half the moves Ganondorf shares with Falcon Samus also shares). I don't know is Samus bombs would have suited Young Link. To start bombs just don't work that way in Zelda, but also Samus's bombs are connected to her morph ball animation so it might end up being more trouble than it's worth putting in a new animation for it. In terms of other characters, I'd like Roy to have PK fire so he has some kind of long range fire move. It'd also just gel well with his moveset as it would stunlock characters allowing Roy the oppertunity to get up close and personal. It would be a bit weird visually but I've long thought Doctor Mario should have the ability to heal himself to distinguish him from Mario. So k would actually have given him PSI Magnet (or make up a new attack that's a heal with a cool down that wouldn't be hard to implement, preferably over his side b as that seems the most random on him, of course if I had full control Dr Mario never would have been a would have been a distinct character). Edited April 26, 2022 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 1 hour ago, Jotari said: It would be a bit weird visually but I've long thought Doctor Mario should have the ability to heal himself to distinguish him from Mario. So k would actually have given him PSI Magnet (or make up a new attack that's a heal with a cool down that wouldn't be hard to implement, preferably over his side b as that seems the most random on him, of course if I had full control Dr Mario never would have been a would have been a distinct character). What if the pills he threw were less like Mario's Neutral-B, and more like throwing an item? It does damage and has knockback when it hits a target. But afterwards, it sits on the ground, and can be eaten to reduce damage. 1 hour ago, Jotari said: In terms of other characters, I'd like Roy to have PK fire so he has some kind of long range fire move. It'd also just gel well with his moveset as it would stunlock characters allowing Roy the oppertunity to get up close and personal. That could work, although the in-game fire follows more of a diagonal-downward arc versus the horizontal PK Fire. 1 hour ago, Jotari said: I don't know is Samus bombs would have suited Young Link. To start bombs just don't work that way in Zelda, but also Samus's bombs are connected to her morph ball animation so it might end up being more trouble than it's worth putting in a new animation for it. Yeah you're probably right. Not sure how I'd animate Young Link in that case. Maybe just have him jump up with his midair dodge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 How about Bombchu or Deku Nuts? Or, better yet, Transformation Masks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 27, 2022 Share Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) On 4/28/2022 at 3:14 AM, Lord_Brand said: How about Bombchu or Deku Nuts? Or, better yet, Transformation Masks? The thing about clones is that they're lucky to get into the game at all. It was a case of least amount of effort to create a character. Those thing weren't in the game already so there's no chance they could have soared the development time to create for Young Link. Best we could have gotten was Sheik's Vanish as a recovery representing Young Link (which fuck it, I'd have been down for, why not? Spin attack is iconic, but not actually that interesting). Course if were designing things from the ground up, Sheik definitely could have done with a stunning special representing Deku Nuts given pretty much the entire moveset has no basis in Zelda. Edited October 11, 2022 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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