Lord_Brand Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 (edited) In the past, I've suggested Serge from Chrono Cross as a potential Smash fighter. Presumably, if he were to get in, he'd bring his game's most notable mechanics, the Innate and Element systems, with him. For those unfamiliar, Chrono Cross features six Innates that form three dualistic pairs of opposing elemental interactions: 🔴 Red and 🔵 Blue 🟡 Yellow and 🟢 Green ⚫ Black and ⚪ White Every single playable character, enemy, and spell in Chrono Cross is one of these six Innates (with one exception). Serge himself is white Innate and would feature an Element Grid with Elements of different colors allocated to it. What if the other Smash fighters also had Innates that would determine how effective particular Elements are against them? These are my choices, with some input from my brother: Spoiler 🔴 Mario 🟡 Donkey Kong ⚪ Link 🟡 Samus ⚫ Dark Samus 🔴 Kirby 🟢 Yoshi ⚪ Fox 🟡 Pikachu 🟢 Luigi ⚪ Ness 🔴 Captain Falcon ⚪ Jigglypuff 🟢 Peach 🟢 Daisy 🔴 Bowser 🔵 Ice Climbers ⚪ Sheik ⚪ Zelda ⚪ Dr. Mario 🟡 Pichu ⚪ Falco 🔵 Marth 🔵 Lucina 🟢 Young Link ⚫ Ganondorf ⚫ Mewtwo 🔴 Roy ⚪ Chrom ⚫ Mr. Game & Watch ⚫ Meta Knight ⚪ Pit ⚫ Dark Pit 🟡 Zero Suit Samus 🟡 Wario ⚫ Snake 🔴 Ike 🟢 Ivysaur 🔴 Charizard 🔵 Squirtle 🔴 Diddy Kong ⚪ Lucas 🟢 Sonic 🔴 King Dedede 🟢 Olimar ⚪ Lucario ⚪ R.O.B. 🟢 Toon Link ⚫ Wolf 🟢 Villager ⚪ Mega Man ⚪ Wii Fit Trainer ⚪ Rosalina & Luma 🔴 Little Mac 🔵 Greninja 🔴 Mii Brawler 🟡 Mii Gunner ⚪ Mii Swordfighter ⚪ Palutena 🟡 Pac-Man ⚫ Robin ⚪ Shulk 🔴 Bowser Jr. 🔵 Duck Hunt ⚪ Ryu 🔴 Ken ⚫ Cloud 🔵 Corrin ⚫ Bayonetta 🔵 Inkling 🔴 Ridley 🔴 Simon ⚪ Richter 🔵 King K. Rool 🟡 Isabelle 🔴 Incineroar 🟢 Piranha Plant ⚫ Joker ⚪ Hero 🟡 Banjo & Kazooie 🔴 Terry ⚫ Byleth 🟡 Min Min 🔴 Steve/Alex ⚫ Sephiroth 🔴 Pyra ⚪ Mythra ⚫ Kazuya ⚪ Sora The Chrono Cross stage could feature Element items that anyone can pick up and use. A fighter whose color matches the Element they're using will deal more damage with it, while one of the opposite color will deal less damage. The CC stage could also feature a Field Effect mechanic that tracks the innates of the last three Elements and/or Techs used. In Chrono Cross, the Field Effect modifies how strong an attack or Element is based on what color each third of the Field is. If the Field is all white, then white attacks and Elements are stronger while Black attacks and Elements are weaker. In Smash, the Field Effect only tracks Elements (either those allocated to Serge's Element Grid or those available to any fighter in the form of an item) and Element Grid Techs; other Specials, including Serge's other three Specials (which are weaker but freely reusable versions of his Element Grid Techs), do not affect the Field. This all said, fighter Innates would of course only appear in battles with Serge, another Chrono Cross fighter, or on the Chrono Cross stage. Edited May 3, 2022 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 It could be a fun gimmick for a single stage. Although I'm not clear on the specifics. Would Non-Serge characters just be powered up in general with the corresponding field effect? Do their own elemental attacks engage with the system? If I play a Blue character, is there a reason why I should collect non blue elements? It sounds like the Materia mechanic of the Midgar stage, except there's a large potential for nothing to ever come of it unless you only ever saw elements appear that corresponded to characters in that match. I think choosing not to give characters innate qualities would help ensure that no specific character or character matchup is disadvantaged from the word Go. Not just for the sake of game balance, I mean there's a reason why Mario and Luigi aren't just better at jumping in a Mario Party minigame. You don't ever want to acknowledge that this or that character has an inherent disadvantage in your system, players want to feel like they have a fair shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted May 1, 2022 Author Share Posted May 1, 2022 4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: It could be a fun gimmick for a single stage. Although I'm not clear on the specifics. Would Non-Serge characters just be powered up in general with the corresponding field effect? Do their own elemental attacks engage with the system? As I clarified above: 9 hours ago, Lord_Brand said: In Smash, the Field Effect only tracks Elements (either those allocated to Serge's Element Grid or those available to any fighter in the form of an item) and Element Grid Techs; other Specials, including Serge's other three Specials (which are weaker but freely reusable versions of his Element Grid Techs), do not affect the Field. So to wit, the only things that actually affect the Field are: Elements and Techs selected from Serge or another CC fighter's Element Grid Element items that any fighter can pick up and use. 4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: If I play a Blue character, is there a reason why I should collect non blue elements? It sounds like the Materia mechanic of the Midgar stage, except there's a large potential for nothing to ever come of it unless you only ever saw elements appear that corresponded to characters in that match. There's strategic merit to using off-color Elements against foes who are not weak to your innate. For example, a red or blue fighter might want to grab a green Element to attack a yellow fighter with, as that will deal more damage to the yellow fighter than an Element of any other color. Indeed, that's often a recommended strategy in Chrono Cross, as that allows you to hit an enemy with a spell they're weak to while avoiding the double-edged sword of being weak to them in turn. This holds especially true for boss fights. 4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I think choosing not to give characters innate qualities would help ensure that no specific character or character matchup is disadvantaged from the word Go. Not just for the sake of game balance, I mean there's a reason why Mario and Luigi aren't just better at jumping in a Mario Party minigame. You don't ever want to acknowledge that this or that character has an inherent disadvantage in your system, players want to feel like they have a fair shot. To be fair, many matchups are already inherently lopsided, with many characters having different attributes like weight, jump height, movement speed, range, recoveries, etc. Furthermore, Innates apply symmetrically; two characters of opposing innates deal a little extra damage to each other while two characters of the same innate deal a little less, so there really isn't an inherent advantage or disadvantage; it's more like a double-edged sword. The difference isn't huge, let's say to the tune of ±0.1; in other words, an attack that normally deals 10% damage instead deals 11% to the opposite innate or 9% to the same. With innates in effect, Mario and Bowser deal 0.9× damage to each other since both are red. With innates in effect, Charizard and Greninja deal 1.1× damage to each other since one is red and the other is blue. The color of Elements are checked separately from that of the user and the target; an off-color user can use an Element on a target of a color opposite the Element but not the user and still deal more damage. To incentivize attacking with different colors of Elements, the Element's color provides a bigger modifier when the target is the opposite or same color versus when the Element and the user are the opposite or same. If Charizard uses Uplift on Ivysaur, Uplift will deal 1.2× damage since Uplift and Ivysaur are opposite colors. If Pikachu uses Uplift on Squirtle, Uplift will deal 1.1× damage since Pikachu and Uplift are the same color. If Pikachu uses Uplift on Ivysaur, Uplift will deal 1.3× damage since Pikachu and Uplift are both the opposite color of Ivysaur. If Pikachu uses Bushwhacker on Squirtle, Bushwhacker will deal 0.9× damage since Pikachu and Bushwhacker are opposite colors. If Pikachu uses Aqua Beam on Squirtle, Aqua Beam will deal 0.8× damage since Aqua Beam and Squirtle are the same color. If Pikachu uses Uplift on Pichu, Uplift will deal 0.9× damage since Pikachu, Uplift, and Pichu are all the same color. If Pikachu uses Bushwhacker on Pichu, Bushwhacker will deal 1.1× damage since Bushwhacker is the opposite color of both Pikachu and Pichu. The Field effect can modify this further, perhaps adding 0.1 to the modifier per instance of color. A field with one solid color would add 0.3 to the modifier, making for a total modifier of 1.6 or 0.4. That 10% damage attack now deals 16% to opposite or 4% to same. Of course, in practice the Field will seldom be one solid color; more likely, you'll have two or even three different colors in there at a time, with opposites acting against each other. A field that's red, white, and blue will give +0.1 to white attacks and -0.1 to black attacks while red and blue remain at base damage. At any rate, Innates only appear if Serge or another theoretical Chrono Cross character is one of the fighters or when battling on the Chrono Cross stage. Otherwise, they do not appear nor affect the game at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 It's an interesting concept, but is there a reason there are far fewer Blue fighters than any other color? I'd say the likes of Marth, Lucina, and Mega Man could be switched to Blue, in light of their thematic colors. Minor note, but Green and Yellow aren't showing up on my mobile browser. So I can't distinguish which is which. I can still make my own guesses, though (i.e. Green for Yoshi, Yellow for Isabelle). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted May 3, 2022 Author Share Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: It's an interesting concept, but is there a reason there are far fewer Blue fighters than any other color? I'd say the likes of Marth, Lucina, and Mega Man could be switched to Blue, in light of their thematic colors. Minor note, but Green and Yellow aren't showing up on my mobile browser. So I can't distinguish which is which. I can still make my own guesses, though (i.e. Green for Yoshi, Yellow for Isabelle). It mainly has to do with what elements feel natural for each character. In Chrono Cross, white is the color of light and cosmic matter such as meteors, black is the color of gravity and death, red is the color of fire and lava, blue is the color of water and ice, yellow is the color of stone and electricity, and green is the color of plants and wind. Marth and Lucina have a strong tie to "holy" concepts such as Naga, while Mega Man's default weapon is powered by solar energy, thus I chose white as their innates. Unfortunately, Smash is currently light on fighters who are associated with water or ice and therefore blue by default. Trust me, I'd love for there to be more of them. Ruto or Mipha would be great candidates, as Smash is still sorely lacking in fish waifus anyway (not to mention if Spirits return, one of them would be a great choice of Spirit Fighter for Irenes). Truth be told, Sonic being blue innate is mostly a matter of him not having many better colors to pick, though his association with wind could make him green I suppose. Not every CC character is colored the same as their innate, after all. In fact, most aren't. Though some have a rather nebulous connection to their innate (What exactly is green about a painter? Especially one who wants money?). The current green fighters are: Yoshi Luigi Peach (originally white, but my bro convinced me to change her to green) Daisy (originally yellow, but my bro convinced me to change her to green) Young Link Ivysaur Olimar Toon Link Villager King K. Rool (originally black, but my bro convinced me to change him to green) Piranha Plant The current yellow fighters are: Donkey Kong Samus Pikachu Pichu Zero Suit Samus Wario Mii Gunner Pac-Man Duck Hunt Isabelle Banjo & Kazooie Min Min Odd that the green and yellow circles aren't showing up on your device. Have you tried checking whatemoji.org? That's where I got the colored circles. Maybe you can install an update that will allow you to see them? Edited May 3, 2022 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said: Odd that the green and yellow circles aren't showing up on your device. Have you tried checking whatemoji.org? That's where I got the colored circles. Maybe you can install an update that will allow you to see them? Thanks for sharing the list! I just checked on my laptop, and they show up there. So just a flaw with my mobile browser. 1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said: It mainly has to do with what elements feel natural for each character. In Chrono Cross, white is the color of light and cosmic matter such as meteors, black is the color of gravity and death, red is the color of fire and lava, blue is the color of water and ice, yellow is the color of stone and electricity, and green is the color of plants and wind. Marth and Lucina have a strong tie to "holy" concepts such as Naga, while Mega Man's default weapon is powered by solar energy, thus I chose white as their innates. Unfortunately, Smash is currently light on fighters who are associated with water or ice and therefore blue by default. Trust me, I'd love for there to be more of them. Ruto or Mipha would be great candidates, as Smash is still sorely lacking in fish waifus anyway (not to mention if Spirits return, one of them would be a great choice of Spirit Fighter for Irenes). Truth be told, Sonic being blue innate is mostly a matter of him not having many better colors to pick, though his association with wind could make him green I suppose. Not every CC character is colored the same as their innate, after all. In fact, most aren't. Though some have a rather nebulous connection to their innate (What exactly is green about a painter? Especially one who wants money?). One way to expand blue would be to recontextualize it - say, as the color of royalty. Purple, a color long associated with royalty, is close to blue, and one of the best-known shades of blue is Royal Blue. Not to mention, the color associated with "the good guys" in Fire Emblem isn't white, but blue. Maybe Mega Man doesn't fit, but Marth and Lucina definitely do. Also Zelda - not only is she royalty, but Blue is the color most-often associated with the Triforce of Wisdom and the Goddess Nayru. Richter could get Blue, too, even with the original theming, since one of his attacks uses Holy Water (with a blue flame, no less). King K. Rool would work with the original theming (as an aquatic animal), as well as the "royalty" theming (it's in the name). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted May 3, 2022 Author Share Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) There's also the fact "blue blood" is a term associated with royalty. Considering blue innates in Chrono Cross include girl next door Leena, wannabe hero Pierre, rock star Nikki, and bratty girl Marcy, you've got some legitimate arguments (though at least Nikki and Marcy's cases can be justified by their parentage). I've changed Marth, Lucina, K. Rool, and for that matter Duck Hunt over to blue. I also moved Sonic to green. Edited May 3, 2022 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) Interesting. As it is, I don't think we have ever received a full explanation on what goes on in deciding the innate colors of certain beings. Some are easy to discern but with others it's not exactly clear. Only perhaps that White innates are meant to be on the rare side, since at least among the enemy encounters it's the least abundant color, from what I recall. Even on the playable party side it's also the least represented, with only six, in contrast to there being seven Black innates and eight each of the other four colors. 11 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said: There's also the fact "blue blood" is a term associated with royalty. Considering blue innates in Chrono Cross include girl next door Leena, wannabe hero Pierre, rock star Nikki, and bratty girl Marcy, you've got some legitimate arguments (though at least Nikki and Marcy's cases can be justified by their parentage). And then like, what, Korcha is prince of Guldove? lol Viper being Yellow Innate and Riddel being White Innate certainly shows otherwise, hahaha. Edited May 3, 2022 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted May 3, 2022 Author Share Posted May 3, 2022 Just now, Acacia Sgt said: Interesting. As it is, I don't think we have ever received a full explanation on what goes on in deciding the innate colors of certain beings. Some are easy to discern but with others it's not exactly clear. Only perhaps that White innates are meant to be on the rare side, since at least among the enemy encounters it's the least abundant color, from what I recall. Even on the playable party side it's also the least represented, with only six, in contrast to there being seven Black innates and eight each of the other four colors. And then like, what Korcha is prince of Guldove? lol Viper being Yellow Innate and Riddel being White Innate certainly shows otherwise, hahaha. Granted, one of those temporarily replaces the lead white innate and later becomes unavailable for the rest of the game, while the other permanently leaves the party unless you exploit a little trick with the Chrono Cross. At least Korcha has the fishing and boatman jobs to tie him to water. Doesn't change the fact he's one of the game's worst characters that isn't a walking plant or a skeleton, but his innate does make sense. I agree that some characters feel like they should have been a different innate. I feel Norris could have been white, Viper could have been black, and Karsh could have been red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 Just now, Lord_Brand said: Granted, one of those temporarily replaces the lead white innate and later becomes unavailable for the rest of the game, while the other permanently leaves the party unless you exploit a little trick with the Chrono Cross. At least Korcha has the fishing and boatman jobs to tie him to water. Doesn't change the fact he's one of the game's worst characters that isn't a walking plant or a skeleton, but his innate does make sense. I agree that some characters feel like they should have been a different innate. I feel Norris could have been white, Viper could have been black, and Karsh could have been red. I mean, you can't have everyone in a regular playthrough anyway, so you'll be missing a few anyway. As it is, only the seventh Black innate is truly unrecoverable once you lose him, so the end result with the Chrono Cross is 6:6:8:8:8:8. Mind, Black Innate enemies are still much more plentiful than White Innate ones, so White is still the overall least common. Yeah, it was a joke to the "Blue Blood" thing. His color does have a clear explanation as it is. Though, well, we know of another fisherman who is White Innate instead. Norris I can see it, perhaps. He probably has the personality for it, if personality is indeed a deciding factor (though technically it's the other way around if the Color Innate is set from birth). Don't see Viper as Black Innate, considering what falls under it. Karsh... hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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