First Pass at a Maddening Tier List

[Burklight]

Attempting to get something close to a baseline unit tier list.

Criteria:
Maddening Mode, S ranking everything, do all side objectives, playing quickly. It's assumed all units have access to all passive skills they can learn. Assumed all units are over level 100 with at least 90 in all offensive stats they would want.

Restrictions:

Relic/Sacred weapons are assumed to be the best weapons you can have. This isn't true, but it would make this way too complicated for the time being.
For now, lets not worry about Merc Whistle items.
Every unit has access to all Artes/Spells they either learn naturally, or can learn easily (A rank support with someone who has it). For example, we can assume Hapi has Dark Spikes (A rank with Shaz) but we cant assume she has Luna.
I'm for the most part going to assume that everyone is in their recommended class unless there is a clear reason why they're better in a different one. I haven't tried every unit in every class, so if I missed one, kindly point it out.

For availability, I didn't penalize anyone for only being usable in one route (Claude, Edelgard). I did penalize units for joining late (Byleth, Yuri, Catherine).

As a final note, I heavily factored in deployment slots because it's unlikely you would ever want to deploy 4 units of the same weapon type. Because of this, I'm somewhat biased against sword users because they're competing with Shaz who is force deployed.

Shaz Tier - Force deployed, able to do anything, can teleport
Shaz

S - units in S can easily solo entire maps regardless of weapon triangle. These are the units you want to be player controlled.
Claude (BK or Barbarossa)- Best skill list, great weapon type, Wind God is broken
Edelgard (Fetters or Dromi or WL) - excellent skill list, excellent personal
Ferdinand - excellent skill list, great personal ability
Hilda - Edelgard but with a worse personal skill
Felix - Excellent skill list, great personal ability, but users swords
Ingrid (DK) - maybe should be at the top of A, but feels significantly stronger than everyone in A

A - units in A are very good at what they're suppose to be good at an don't have too much trouble at things they're suppose to be bad at, or have excellent utility. These units may not always be player controlled.
Byleth - Availability issues and sword user or would be higher
Dimitri - Maybe should be S tier? Feels weaker than everyone currently in S
Hubert - Probably the best player controlled mage
Balthus - Very good WM, money making utility
Lysithea - Dark Assist, probably the best Gremory
Annette - Rally Deluxe, Wind Assist
Seteth - Competing with Annette for best AG Axe user, and she wants to be a support unit
Lorenz - Probably best GW Lance user
Sylvain - Competing with too many lance users
Marianne (Trickster)- Ice Assist, good personal ability, decent combat
Raphael - Rally Str
Caspar - Would be higher if not Competing with Edelgard
Jeritza - Too much competition with lance users where he is available or would be higher

B - units in B do their job or have passable utility, and not much else. These are typically AI controlled.
Dorothea - Lightning Assist
Bernadetta - Ice Assist
Mercedes - Light Assist
Constance - Light Assist
Flayn (HK)
Petra - Yuri, but better availability
Leonie - Could potentially see moving to around where Lorenz is
Linhardt (HK) 
Catherine - Availability issues, sword user, missing key damage skills
Holst - Sword user and missing key damage skills
Hapi - Solid Gremory, but Gremory isn't very good
Yuri - Late recruit, uses swords
Shamir - Missing key damage skills
Jeralt - Missing key damage skills
Rodrigue - Competing with too many lance users

C - units in C struggle to do their job or have bad utility. These are either AI controlled or benchwarmers.
Dedue
Ashe
Ignatz
Manuela
Monica

Feedback is welcome. If my criteria doesn't make sense or you think it should be changed, I'm open to that feedback as well.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Burklight

[Fabulously Olivier]

I think given the general balance of the game that S and A tiers could afford to be bigger.

 

I don't agree with "competing with too many units" as a criteria. Lance units are probably the best in the game. DK, HK, Paladin, and FK are all phenomenal movesets, and the characters that use them tend to also be exceptional units. Speaking of which, people sleep on Rodrigue, when he's one of the best natural Holy Knights - the only natural one to have Essence of Light, and his unique is really strong when used properly. Then you've got units like Sylvain and Ferdinand who are just flat out S tier. Like no, I'm sorry. These two are objectively S tier.

 

I don't feel that Linhardt is a bench-warmer. While his class synergy isn't great, he is rocking a good crest with two relics, and that healing is put to good use with Lifeforce. Wind and Excalibur really rocks. He's not like A tier or anything, but he's not bottom tier.

 

Ranking units based on Assists is also weird when it isn't done consistently. Monica is likely one of the best pair ups in the game due to Warrior Assist, Harmonious Specials, One Heart One Mind, and Rally Res. Plus, her Unique Support is a pretty good share for anyone who excels at status effects.

[Burklight]

3 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I think given the general balance of the game that S and A tiers could afford to be bigger.

 

I don't agree with "competing with too many units" as a criteria. Lance units are probably the best in the game. DK, HK, Paladin, and FK are all phenomenal movesets, and the characters that use them tend to also be exceptional units. Speaking of which, people sleep on Rodrigue, when he's one of the best natural Holy Knights - the only natural one to have Essence of Light, and his unique is really strong when used properly. Then you've got units like Sylvain and Ferdinand who are just flat out S tier. Like no, I'm sorry. These two are objectively S tier.

 

I don't feel that Linhardt is a bench-warmer. While his class synergy isn't great, he is rocking a good crest with two relics, and that healing is put to good use with Lifeforce. Wind and Excalibur really rocks. He's not like A tier or anything, but he's not bottom tier.

 

Ranking units based on Assists is also weird when it isn't done consistently. Monica is likely one of the best pair ups in the game due to Warrior Assist, Harmonious Specials, One Heart One Mind, and Rally Res. Plus, her Unique Support is a pretty good share for anyone who excels at status effects.

So the reason I used "competing with too many units" a few times is because I can't think of hardly any instances where you'd want multiple units of the same weapon type deployed as playable characters. When you do, it's usually because they're so much better than alternatives that weapon triangle disadvantage would be less bad than having to use someone under leveled or with a bad skillset. 

Rodrigue and Sylvain are both missing Luna, IF, and Lifeforce. Sylvain at least has Dual Onslaught. That makes their damage output significantly worse than every lance user I placed higher. Sylvain is probably better than Lorenz due to his personal, but there's almost never a time you'd rather use Sylvain than Dimitri or Ingrid. Lorenz doesn't have that problem.

I have Ferdinand in S.

[Sire]

Glancing at the list, the only two I immediately disagree with are Sylvain and Flayn.

While I may be a bit biased towards Sylvain due to his personal (using his Merc Whistle Accessory, Warm Cloak, on Shez is the best thing ever), Sylvain has plenty of great qualities.
-- Offensive Skills: Big Game Hunter, Dual Onslaught, Wild Abandon, and Offensive Tactics. (Sure, he doesn't have Impossible Feat or Luna, but I say his personal more than makes up for that.)
-- Also, Sylvain has a Crest and also has a Relic Weapon, so I assume he's likely using that and Ruined Sky as one of the Combat Arts.
== Now, I know Sylvain directly competes with Dimitri since Sylvain is also Blue Lions exclusive, and both characters use Lances, but I think you may be factoring in "repeating weapons" a bit too much. While I agree deployment slots are important (Shez + 3 for the main, then 4 more for the main chapter maps), having characters using the same weapon type is not that big of a deal in my opinion. Battalions, Weapon Breakers, and Different Movesets offer enough variety to break up the monotony. Also, Dimitri and Sylvain use different movesets despite using Lances, so they play differently.
== As Fabulously Oliver has stated, Sylvain is easily S-Rank. 

Now for Flayn, I dare say she may be better than she initially appears. Sure, her crest is meant for support and her personals suck, but a looking at her skills tells a different story...
-- Offensive Skills: Big Game Hunter, Dual Onslaught, Wild Abandon, Undaunted, Offensive Tactics, Luna
-- Now, while Flayn is normally built for magic, if she shifts gears and focuses on physical instead (to take advantage of Luna), I'm sure she can work surprising well. Granted, other units likely still outclass her due to better Crests/Personals, but at least Flayn's skill set allows her to perform rather well as a Holy Knight (instead of the standard Bishop/Gremory). The downside is that Flayn may require extra investment if going the Luna route, which may be undesirable.
== That said, I benched Flayn during my initial Blue Lions playthrough and will likely keep her benched on my Maddening run, mostly because I prefer the other characters and they may outperform her.

* * * * *

As a quick aside, here's my initial plans for my Maddening teams, but I'll place it in the spoiler to not detract too much from the main topic.
-- This was made after quickly glancing at their learned skills and my personal preference.

Spoiler

Mains: The main 4 that can be swapped to at any time, under player control.
Reserves: Those who can be swapped with the mains, or otherwise deployed as AI allies.
Bench: Characters that are weaker or that I personally do not care much for.
Honorable Mentions: I love Petra (and she has received stat boosters) and would like to use Monica more, even though their abilities are not the best around.

Golden Deer Mains: Shez, Claude, Hilda, Lorenz
-- Reserves: Lysithea, Marianne
-- Bench: Raphael, Ignatz, Leonie, Holst

Blue Lion Mains: Shez, Dimitri, Felix, Sylvain
-- Reserves: Ashe, Ingrid, Flayn, Catherine
-- Bench: Dedue, Mercedes, Annette, Seteth

Black Eagle Mains: Shez, Edelgard, Hubert, Ferdinand
-- Reserves: Caspar, Jeritza
-- Honorable Mentions: Petra, Monica
-- Bench: Linhardt, Bernadetta, Dorothea, Manuela

Silver Extras
-- Jeralt's Mercenaries: Byleth, Jeralt
-- Ashen Wolf: Yuri
-- Golden Boy: Balthus
-- Monster Slayer: Hapi
-- Spectacular Shady Spell Spammer Sorceress: Constance
-- Gate Guy: Gatekeeper
-- Monastery Bench: Shamir

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Sire

[Burklight]

16 minutes ago, Sire said:

Glancing at the list, the only two I immediately disagree with are Sylvain and Flayn.

While I may be a bit biased towards Sylvain due to his personal (using his Merc Whistle Accessory, Warm Cloak, on Shez is the best thing ever), Sylvain has plenty of great qualities.
-- Offensive Skills: Big Game Hunter, Dual Onslaught, Wild Abandon, and Offensive Tactics. (Sure, he doesn't have Impossible Feat or Luna, but I say his personal more than makes up for that.)
-- Also, Sylvain has a Crest and also has a Relic Weapon, so I assume he's likely using that and Ruined Sky as one of the Combat Arts.
== Now, I know Sylvain directly competes with Dimitri since Sylvain is also Blue Lions exclusive, and both characters use Lances, but I think you may be factoring in "repeating weapons" a bit too much. While I agree deployment slots are important (Shez + 3 for the main, then 4 more for the main chapter maps), having characters using the same weapon type is not that big of a deal in my opinion. Battalions, Weapon Breakers, and Different Movesets offer enough variety to break up the monotony. Also, Dimitri and Sylvain use different movesets despite using Lances, so they play differently.
== As Fabulously Oliver has stated, Sylvain is easily S-Rank. 

Now for Flayn, I dare say she may be better than she initially appears. Sure, her crest is meant for support and her personals suck, but a looking at her skills tells a different story...
-- Offensive Skills: Big Game Hunter, Dual Onslaught, Wild Abandon, Undaunted, Offensive Tactics, Luna
-- Now, while Flayn is normally built for magic, if she shifts gears and focuses on physical instead (to take advantage of Luna), I'm sure she can work surprising well. Granted, other units likely still outclass her due to better Crests/Personals, but at least Flayn's skill set allows her to perform rather well as a Holy Knight (instead of the standard Bishop/Gremory). The downside is that Flayn may require extra investment if going the Luna route, which may be undesirable.
== That said, I benched Flayn during my initial Blue Lions playthrough and will likely keep her benched on my Maddening run, mostly because I prefer the other characters and they may outperform her.

* * * * *

As a quick aside, here's my initial plans for my Maddening teams, but I'll place it in the spoiler to not detract too much from the main topic.
-- This was made after quickly glancing at their learned skills and my personal preference.

  Reveal hidden contents

Mains: The main 4 that can be swapped to at any time, under player control.
Reserves: Those who can be swapped with the mains, or otherwise deployed as AI allies.
Bench: Characters that are weaker or that I personally do not care much for.
Honorable Mentions: I love Petra (and she has received stat boosters) and would like to use Monica more, even though their abilities are not the best around.

Golden Deer Mains: Shez, Claude, Hilda, Lorenz
-- Reserves: Lysithea, Marianne
-- Bench: Raphael, Ignatz, Leonie, Holst

Blue Lion Mains: Shez, Dimitri, Felix, Sylvain
-- Reserves: Ashe, Ingrid, Flayn, Catherine
-- Bench: Dedue, Mercedes, Annette, Seteth

Black Eagle Mains: Shez, Edelgard, Hubert, Ferdinand
-- Reserves: Caspar, Jeritza
-- Honorable Mentions: Petra, Monica
-- Bench: Linhardt, Bernadetta, Dorothea, Manuela

Silver Extras
-- Jeralt's Mercenaries: Byleth, Jeralt
-- Ashen Wolf: Yuri
-- Golden Boy: Balthus
-- Monster Slayer: Hapi
-- Spectacular Shady Spell Spammer Sorceress: Constance
-- Gate Guy: Gatekeeper
-- Monastery Bench: Shamir

 

I may have slightly underrated Sylvain. I can see him moving to below to just below Lorenz. He's probably better than Jeritza at least. I don't care about resources, so I agree that Flayn (HK) shouldn't be in C, but I'm not sure how much higher for the same reasons as Sylvain and Rodrigue being AG locked. Throwing her in the middle of B for the time being.

The problem with AG is that they give a bunch of lance users who in isolation probably all belong somewhere in A tier, but because they're all competing for spots probably shouldn't all go into A tier.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Burklight said:

So the reason I used "competing with too many units" a few times is because I can't think of hardly any instances where you'd want multiple units of the same weapon type deployed as playable characters. When you do, it's usually because they're so much better than alternatives that weapon triangle disadvantage would be less bad than having to use someone under leveled or with a bad skillset. 

Rodrigue and Sylvain are both missing Luna, IF, and Lifeforce. Sylvain at least has Dual Onslaught. That makes their damage output significantly worse than every lance user I placed higher. Sylvain is probably better than Lorenz due to his personal, but there's almost never a time you'd rather use Sylvain than Dimitri or Ingrid. Lorenz doesn't have that problem.

I have Ferdinand in S.

Ingrid... also doesn't have Luna or Impossible Feat so you aren't applying the standard evenly. And doesn't have Big Game Hunter or Dual Onslaught. She certainly has some good skills with Lifeforce, Forethought, Essence of Ice, and Offensive Tactics. But you are weighing those a whole two tiers over Sylvain's Big Game Hunter, Dual Onslaught, Offensive Tactics, and Essence of Fire. He has ample skills to make a build every bit as viable as hers, and has a much better Unique Action to boot. I'd also argue he has the better relic by a fair margin.

 

And Lorenz is nutty. He's the best Wild Abandon user in the game. He has Dual Onslaught and Big Game Hunter. And Offensive Tactics. And Burst of Resolve. And is one of the best Essence of Fire users. He's probably the second or third best lance unit in the game.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Burklight]

5 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Ingrid... also doesn't have Luna or Impossible Feat so you aren't applying the standard evenly. And doesn't have Big Game Hunter or Dual Onslaught. She certainly has some good skills with Lifeforce, Forethought, Essence of Ice, and Offensive Tactics. But you are weighing those a whole two tiers over Sylvain's Big Game Hunter, Dual Onslaught, Offensive Tactics, and Essence of Fire. He has ample skills to make a build every bit as viable as hers, and has a much better Unique Action to boot. I'd also argue he has the better relic by a fair margin.

Ingrid does have Flare, which is potentially better than Luna on a DK. She also has the option of being 100% stagger immune, which lets her braindead steamroll things more easily than pretty much any lance user in AG other than maybe Dimitri. I'm not totally convinced she belongs in S tier, but I'm fairly sure she's the best AG lance user. I think comparing Ingrid and Sylvain's relics is kind of a wash, because each would prefer to use their own, probably.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm a bit surprised this tier list is for NG+. Is NG+ not just a faceroll curbstomp for a skilled player regardless of units? Haven't done it yet, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm also a bit surprised at Ferdinand in S, since his speedup gimmick evaporates every time you switch. I used him a lot and I didn't really feel like he stood out. I guess he's better for soloing than average, but I don't really care about that, and I don't think a tier list should either. Switching to maintain constant advantage (not to mention get four characters' worth of combat arts/spells, more warrior specials, etc.) is incredibly powerful.

Surprised Petra is in C. Her dodge is nice for getting out of trouble. Maybe better players than me don't need to dodge, though.

Agreed that Lorenz is busted and belongs in the highest tier, he makes the damage rank a non-issue to achieve. There's no way his offence is poor enough to offset that advantage.

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit surprised this tier list is for NG+. Is NG+ not just a faceroll curbstomp for a skilled player regardless of units? Haven't done it yet, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm also a bit surprised at Ferdinand in S, since his speedup gimmick evaporates every time you switch. I used him a lot and I didn't really feel like he stood out. I guess he's better for soloing than average, but I don't really care about that, and I don't think a tier list should either. Switching to maintain constant advantage (not to mention get four characters' worth of combat arts/spells, more warrior specials, etc.) is incredibly powerful.

Surprised Petra is in C. Her dodge is nice for getting out of trouble. Maybe better players than me don't need to dodge, though.

Agreed that Lorenz is busted and belongs in the highest tier, he makes the damage rank a non-issue to achieve. There's no way his offence is poor enough to offset that advantage.

Ferdinand is stupid good. 

 

Has Lifeforce and Impossible Feat, and with the downsides mitigated by his Sacred weapon (which is also one of the few good Sacred Weapons due to its added effect) AND Sacred shield. This also nullifies all status effects. And if that's somehow not enough healing for you, he can take Rejuvenation, which synergizes with his passive.

 

One of the best unique actions in the game, if not the best.

 

Strong unique support ability that makes it really easy to Awaken on him. Also makes him an excellent farmer with Despoil and Appraisal.

 

Has Luna, Offensive Tactics, and Wild Abandon for further damage options. Has Luck Catalyst to synergize with Luna, and also has Dexterity Catalyst if that's somehow not enough Warrior special spam.

 

Can easily blow up crowds with Essence of Fire Glowing Ember and Ragnarok.

 

Arguably the best preferred class line. All lance users are stupid good.

 

And he's Ferdinand VON AEGIR!

[Burklight]

18 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit surprised this tier list is for NG+. Is NG+ not just a faceroll curbstomp for a skilled player regardless of units? Haven't done it yet, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm also a bit surprised at Ferdinand in S, since his speedup gimmick evaporates every time you switch. I used him a lot and I didn't really feel like he stood out. I guess he's better for soloing than average, but I don't really care about that, and I don't think a tier list should either. Switching to maintain constant advantage (not to mention get four characters' worth of combat arts/spells, more warrior specials, etc.) is incredibly powerful.

Surprised Petra is in C. Her dodge is nice for getting out of trouble. Maybe better players than me don't need to dodge, though.

Agreed that Lorenz is busted and belongs in the highest tier, he makes the damage rank a non-issue to achieve. There's no way his offence is poor enough to offset that advantage.

NG+ is a faceroll curbstomp for hard mode. Less so for maddening. 

Ferdinand has a lot going for him aside from his speedup. Name Drop is one of the better passives, and on top of that he has access to Luna, Lifeforce, IF, WA, OT. His relics also offset any self damage he might have. He'd probably still be a contender for S rank even without his speedup.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I never got a sacred weapon for Ferdinand, and according to a source I found it's only on Azure Gleam, while he's locked to Scarlet Blaze? Well... I guess that's the result of a NG+ tier list, but kinda reflects why I find them a bit silly.

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I never got a sacred weapon for Ferdinand, and according to a source I found it's only on Azure Gleam, while he's locked to Scarlet Blaze? Well... I guess that's the result of a NG+ tier list, but kinda reflects why I find them a bit silly.

Maddening is designed specifically for NG+. I'm sure it's possible to do it clean, but hardly realistic. And to that end, why would you? It would just be a worse experience to use the characters without most of their tools.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Maddening is designed specifically for NG+. I'm sure it's possible to do it clean, but hardly realistic. And to that end, why would you? It would just be a worse experience to use the characters without most of their tools.

Yeah from the sounds of things Maddening is in a weird place where it's too grindy for a clean run, but way too easy for a "no holds barred" NG+ run where you can import maxed out characters. You're proposing building a tier list for the latter, and I definitely question the value of such a tier list when I'd bet good money that I could construct a team using "bottom tier" characters and S rank all the missions under those conditions with less difficulty than I had using a more typical team on NG Hard.

Tier lists are usually constructed with the highest difficulty in mind, and that's NG rather than NG+. If NG Maddening is deemed too difficult, then I'd think NG Hard is still likely a more challenging experience than multiple-files-of-NG+ Maddening. NG is also much more consistent for comparisons; all players and units will have the same starting point. There's a reason that tier lists and unit ratings for Three Houes basically never assumed NG+.

[Fabulously Olivier]

8 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah from the sounds of things Maddening is in a weird place where it's too grindy for a clean run, but way too easy for a "no holds barred" NG+ run where you can import maxed out characters. You're proposing building a tier list for the latter, and I definitely question the value of such a tier list when I'd bet good money that I could construct a team using "bottom tier" characters and S rank all the missions under those conditions with less difficulty than I had using a more typical team on NG Hard.

Tier lists are usually constructed with the highest difficulty in mind, and that's NG rather than NG+. If NG Maddening is deemed too difficult, then I'd think NG Hard is still likely a more challenging experience than multiple-files-of-NG+ Maddening. NG is also much more consistent for comparisons; all players and units will have the same starting point. There's a reason that tier lists and unit ratings for Three Houes basically never assumed NG+.

It's pretty consistent with how Warriors games usually handle difficult modes. They're less optional forms of self-imposed challenge, and more of an expected steady curve from A to B, with the rewards increasing the same. Comparing it to 3 Houses' approach to difficulties is a non-starter.

 

I'd also say NG+++ maddening is a more enjoyable experience than a clean Hard. Your gameplay isn't being slowed by facility upgrades, supports, ongoing min-maxing, constantly swapping loadouts, etc. Characters have their builds available to them at this point, and that actually makes them feel more distinct and fully realized. You get to enjoy playstyles like combat art machine gun Bernie and Blutgang Dancer Marianne that aren't really a thing in a fresh playthrough.

[Burklight]

50 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It's pretty consistent with how Warriors games usually handle difficult modes. They're less optional forms of self-imposed challenge, and more of an expected steady curve from A to B, with the rewards increasing the same. Comparing it to 3 Houses' approach to difficulties is a non-starter.

 

I'd also say NG+++ maddening is a more enjoyable experience than a clean Hard. Your gameplay isn't being slowed by facility upgrades, supports, ongoing min-maxing, constantly swapping loadouts, etc. Characters have their builds available to them at this point, and that actually makes them feel more distinct and fully realized. You get to enjoy playstyles like combat art machine gun Bernie and Blutgang Dancer Marianne that aren't really a thing in a fresh playthrough.

Agreed. Also, the way I framed B tier is "does their job, but can't really do other people's jobs too." If you take 4 units who can all do their jobs fine and switch between them, you could for sure clear maddening without too much issue. But you could do it significantly faster with fewer headaches if you used S and A characters.

Also, there's probably some more instances like @Sire pointed out with Flayn where when used in the correct class, they probably don't belong in C or B.

[ZanaLyrander]

I think people sleep on Lindhart (appropriate though that is given his love of naps). I know I did. I wouldn't say he's A tier material, and I was fairly disappointed in his performance as a Dark Bishop, and mainly just used him as a healer. But then I made him a Holy Knight for extra healing and discovered that between Excalibur, his basic combos, his personal skill, Gather, and his ability to rapidly build up Awakening with Burst of Resolve, he can just chew through stun gauges, and critical rush everyone. It certainly caught me off guard, I had been fairly unimpressed with him prior to that point, but if you haven't tried this build, I highly recommend it, I was very surprised by how powerful he was. Again, I wouldn't call him A or S tier material, but I object to his placement in C Tier (of course, I kinda object to the existence of C tier. None of the units you placed there are actually weak, hell, Petra's practically unstoppable, she's one of the better Tricksters in the game imo).

Edited July 25, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Burklight]

1 hour ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I think people sleep on Lindhart (appropriate though that is given his love of naps). I know I did. I wouldn't say he's A tier material, and I was fairly disappointed in his performance as a Dark Bishop, and mainly just used him as a healer. But then I made him a Holy Knight for extra healing and discovered that between Excalibur, his basic combos, his personal skill, Gather, and his ability to rapidly build up Awakening with Burst of Resolve, he can just chew through stun gauges, and critical rush everyone. It certainly caught me off guard, I had been fairly unimpressed with him prior to that point, but if you haven't tried this build, I highly recommend it, I was very surprised by how powerful he was. Again, I wouldn't call him A or S tier material, but I object to his placement in C Tier (of course, I kinda object to the existence of C tier. None of the units you placed there are actually weak, hell, Petra's practically unstoppable, she's one of the better Tricksters in the game imo).

I think I'm starting to see a theme here with HKs. You're probably correct about Lindhardt needing to be somewhere in B. As for Petra, I'll admit I don't have very much first hand experience using her. Other than availability, what sets her apart from Yuri? And to a lesser extent, what sets her apart from all the semi weak mages who would rather be a Trickster than a HK?

[ZanaLyrander]

5 minutes ago, Burklight said:

I think I'm starting to see a theme here with HKs. You're probably correct about Lindhardt needing to be somewhere in B. As for Petra, I'll admit I don't have very much first hand experience using her. Other than availability, what sets her apart from Yuri? And to a lesser extent, what sets her apart from all the semi weak mages who would rather be a Trickster than a HK?

I admit, I haven't used Yuri a lot, so I can't really compare Petra to him very well. I imagine the two are fairly similar, both being Essence of Wind Tricksters. But Petra, much like Lindhart, seems to me to be very stun gauge focused. Her unique support ability is basically just Burst of Resolve but better, so she fills up her Awakening gauge real fast, she can juggle enemies with wind magic, she has access to a bunch of abilities like Heavy Hitter and Patience that increase stun gauge damage, and her personal ability makes her very hard to hit and highly mobile in combat. This all comes together to make her very reliable.

[Burklight]

16 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I admit, I haven't used Yuri a lot, so I can't really compare Petra to him very well. I imagine the two are fairly similar, both being Essence of Wind Tricksters. But Petra, much like Lindhart, seems to me to be very stun gauge focused. Her unique support ability is basically just Burst of Resolve but better, so she fills up her Awakening gauge real fast, she can juggle enemies with wind magic, she has access to a bunch of abilities like Heavy Hitter and Patience that increase stun gauge damage, and her personal ability makes her very hard to hit and highly mobile in combat. This all comes together to make her very reliable.

Updated Lindhardt and Petra to B. 

The issue I'm currently having is how to address the large number of units who fall into the category of "If you decide to play this unit, it will be fine, but they are objectively worse than 2-3 other units who do the same thing, and if you use the 2-3 other, it will see zero combat for the entire run." I think those units should go into C, because the random support you're using is doing more for you than the unit on the bench, despite the fact that they are usable if you decide to. There seems to be disagreement on that.

[ZanaLyrander]

4 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Updated Lindhardt and Petra to B. 

The issue I'm currently having is how to address the large number of units who fall into the category of "If you decide to play this unit, it will be fine, but they are objectively worse than 2-3 other units who do the same thing, and if you use the 2-3 other, it will see zero combat for the entire run." I think those units should go into C, because the random support you're using is doing more for you than the unit on the bench, despite the fact that they are usable if you decide to. There seems to be disagreement on that.

I think the trap you're falling in is one I myself fell prey to in my first few runs: thanks to the class system, two units who do the same thing is a simple matter to fix, just change the class of one of them. People put too much stock into preferred classes, preferred class doesn't amount to much other than more expediently gaining class exp, which, by the time you're doing maddening runs, shouldn't be an issue, you should have plenty of classes mastered. As far as I can tell, there really aren't any units in this game who are only good at one thing. To give an example, in one run, I was using Great Knight Crusher Annette, which was a super fun build. This led to Dedue feeling a bit redundant. This was how I discovered that Dedue is a startlingly good Bow Knight who gets Armsthrift, Essence of Fire boosted Flame Volley, Deadeye, and just like everyone else, he can equip The Inexhaustible. This resulted in a tremendously powerful, surprisingly durable archer. There really are no bad units in this game as far as I can tell. You just have to learn to ignore what the game seems to suggest you should be doing with each unit, and experiment. You'll find a build you love with just about any unit given just a little bit of time and curiosity.

[Burklight]

12 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I think the trap you're falling in is one I myself fell prey to in my first few runs: thanks to the class system, two units who do the same thing is a simple matter to fix, just change the class of one of them. People put too much stock into preferred classes, preferred class doesn't amount to much other than more expediently gaining class exp, which, by the time you're doing maddening runs, shouldn't be an issue, you should have plenty of classes mastered. As far as I can tell, there really aren't any units in this game who are only good at one thing. To give an example, in one run, I was using Great Knight Crusher Annette, which was a super fun build. This led to Dedue feeling a bit redundant. This was how I discovered that Dedue is a startlingly good Bow Knight who gets Armsthrift, Essence of Fire boosted Flame Volley, Deadeye, and just like everyone else, he can equip The Inexhaustible. This resulted in a tremendously powerful, surprisingly durable archer. There really are no bad units in this game as far as I can tell. You just have to learn to ignore what the game seems to suggest you should be doing with each unit, and experiment. You'll find a build you love with just about any unit given just a little bit of time and curiosity.

I promise I'm not falling into that trap, I've already tried a bunch of non recommended things that usually worked out fairly well. I just thought as a first pass it would be too complicated to rank every unit as their "best" class instead of their preferred class, as that seems like a whole other can of worms. I'm open to moving people around based on non recommended builds tho, have a few times already.

Dedue I'm more suspicious of, however. Wouldn't he need an A rank invert attack/defense bow with Absorb Def to have damage numbers even comparable to other units with actual damage skills? For that matter, has anyone figured out if Dual Onslaught does anything weird if you use an invert weapon ability?

Finding a build you like playing is great, but that doesn't mean it's as good as others that are blatantly better.

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Burklight said:

I promise I'm not falling into that trap, I've already tried a bunch of non recommended things that usually worked out fairly well. I just thought as a first pass it would be too complicated to rank every unit as their "best" class instead of their preferred class, as that seems like a whole other can of worms. I'm open to moving people around based on non recommended builds tho, have a few times already.

Dedue I'm more suspicious of, however. Wouldn't he need an A rank invert attack/defense bow with Absorb Def to have damage numbers even comparable to other units with actual damage skills? For that matter, has anyone figured out if Dual Onslaught does anything weird if you use an invert weapon ability?

Finding a build you like playing is great, but that doesn't mean it's as good as others that are blatantly better.

Damage isn't everything. Sometimes a slightly more durable unit that doesn't do quite as much damage is a fine tradeoff. And it's not like he's completely without damage abilities, he gets Underdog, and on Maddening, that applies to basically everyone, most of the enemies after the first handful of chapters exceed the level cap, at which point Underdog is just a free damage boost. And while his base magic stat is low, Dual Onslaught is still quite powerful late game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think all units in this game are equal, that's virtually impossible without them all being essentially the same. And I concede that for most builds on most characters, there's probably at least one character who could do roughly the same build 'better' (albeit probably with some differences). But in my experience, even those that are 'objectively better' for a given build aren't better by much, you have to be really paying attention and number crunching to notice a significant difference. The worst unit in Three Hopes, whoever that may be, is still 100% viable, and could easily be the star of the show for a run without any significant difficulties if you take the time to find a good build for them. I guess I don't object to the idea of C tier, it just feels to me like it implies a larger difference in effectiveness than what actually exists in the game.

[Burklight]

16 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Damage isn't everything. Sometimes a slightly more durable unit that doesn't do quite as much damage is a fine tradeoff. And it's not like he's completely without damage abilities, he gets Underdog, and on Maddening, that applies to basically everyone, most of the enemies after the first handful of chapters exceed the level cap, at which point Underdog is just a free damage boost. And while his base magic stat is low, Dual Onslaught is still quite powerful late game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think all units in this game are equal, that's virtually impossible without them all being essentially the same. And I concede that for most builds on most characters, there's probably at least one character who could do roughly the same build 'better' (albeit probably with some differences). But in my experience, even those that are 'objectively better' for a given build aren't better by much, you have to be really paying attention and number crunching to notice a significant difference. The worst unit in Three Hopes, whoever that may be, is still 100% viable, and could easily be the star of the show for a run without any significant difficulties if you take the time to find a good build for them. I guess I don't object to the idea of C tier, it just feels to me like it implies a larger difference in effectiveness than what actually exists in the game.

So maybe I wasn't clear about what my issue was a few posts ago, so let me try again. I'll take a fairly extreme example. I don't think anyone would argue that Catherine is a better sword user than Felix. Felix is clearly superior in almost every measurable category. However, if you decide for whatever reason that you're going to use Catherine instead, and you're already using Shaz because you have to, you're either going to class Felix into something else, or more likely, not use him. In the scenario where Felix goes unused, Felix is going to be contributing literally zero to your run. That would make him a C tier unit for that run in my current thinking.

So I'm sort of skipping the step where they're ranked low because they probably aren't getting used. Do you think it would make more sense to ignore deployment restraints and any context and just look at them in a vacuum? That seems less helpful to me, but that seems to be where most of the criticism is coming from. 

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Burklight said:

So maybe I wasn't clear about what my issue was a few posts ago, so let me try again. I'll take a fairly extreme example. I don't think anyone would argue that Catherine is a better sword user than Felix. Felix is clearly superior in almost every measurable category. However, if you decide for whatever reason that you're going to use Catherine instead, and you're already using Shaz because you have to, you're either going to class Felix into something else, or more likely, not use him. In the scenario where Felix goes unused, Felix is going to be contributing literally zero to your run. That would make him a C tier unit for that run in my current thinking.

So I'm sort of skipping the step where they're ranked low because they probably aren't getting used. Do you think it would make more sense to ignore deployment restraints and any context and just look at them in a vacuum? That seems less helpful to me, but that seems to be where most of the criticism is coming from. 

I do think ignoring deployment restraints is probably a better way to handle a tier list. Making a character lower tier because there's a higher tier unit that fills a similar role seems like putting the cart before the horse. The tier list itself factoring into what tier a character belongs to gets a little confusing because it makes the tier list self-referential. The existence of a better unit for a given build does not inherently make a character worse. For example, Byleth is definitely an S rank unit imo. The fact that you have to use Shez for main missions and thus Byleth is likely to see slightly less use outside of side missions or record keeper battles if you keep them both as sword users (which is hardly necessary, they're both excellent in essentially any class) does not make Byleth any less insanely powerful.

[Archeleon]

Maybe it shouldn't be so much about what weapon they use but what style of play they have. Are you looking at a CA/Spell spammer? A unit that works around Stun Gauge/Awakening? An Awakening/Specials cycler? A straight up combo chainer?