Three Houses Character Builds Dump

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'm curious, when exactly in your own personal experience would you expect a unit who is neutral in Flight to reach A+ Flight ?

I haven't played for a while, and my memory isn't great, so take this with a grain of salt, but my feeling is maybe somewhere around about chapter 16 or so.

[LoneRecon400]

Yeah that's way later than when I usually get them. Last time I tried getting a neutral unit A+ Flight, they got it by Chapter 11.

Of course, I always focus hard on a handful of units rather than use a whole team equally. If you don't instruct every week, get the statue bonus, and don't use sauna, that sound about right to me.

Edited August 24, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Dark Holy Elf]

This conversation is why I consider flight boons to be a major advantage for Alert Stance+. The effects of boons are sometimes overstated but when it comes to investing in one skill super heavily it makes all the difference. I think Petra/Ingrid/Claude have a major advantage for this build over all other characters (except perhaps Ferdinand/Dimitri, who make up for it with their personals). That isn't to say others don't make fantastic wyverns, but if your goal is specifically a flying dodgetank who gets online as soon as your playstyle allows (whether that includes grinding or not, whether that includes focusing on a large team or a small one), then you should use one of those three, because they get there notably before everyone else regardless. Cyril/Manuela/Seteth also have flight boons but they start at a significantly lower rank relative to the time (Cyril has E in chapter 5 and can't go pegasus, Manuela has D in Chapter 8, Seteth has C in Chapter 12).

[SumG]

On 8/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, Goddess Serra said:

So… wow, I didn’t expect Valkyrie to match up so unfavorably against other options, but apparently it really is just a stepping stone with a solid mastery skill

I've never really found particularly strong incentive to go through the effort of getting the weapon proficiencies required to get into Dark Knight from Valkyrie.  You really don't get significant benefit (a net +3 magic), and it requires a bunch of additional weapon proficiency training.  Let's assume that you get into Valkyrie with a C+ in riding, intend to get into Dark Knight with a B+ in riding, and start at E lances.  That means that you need to get 640 riding experience and 300 lance experience in order to get into Dark Knight.  You will get some riding experience incidentally while in Valkyrie, but it's not a huge amount, which means you'll be relying heavily on weekly training and tutoring to make up these levels.

The problem here is that this compounds an issue that stems from getting into Valkyrie in the first place.  Typically, in order to get into the Valkyrie class by level 20 you're going to need to stop training Faith in order to train riding for part of the early game.  It's very likely that mages you go into Valkyrie will not have their A-rank spells when they get into that class, and may not even have their B-rank spells yet.  Many of the mages you are likely to have some pretty darn good spells at those ranks that are worthwhile to get, but trying to get into Dark Knight will force you into a decision of prioritizing weapon ranks for the class path or Faith magic for useful spells.

Further, once you do reach A-rank in Faith, you can have your mages move on to training Authority to get into higher rank battalions.  Those higher tier battalions not only can provide some extra magic to cover some of the gap between the inherent Magic bonuses for Valkyrie and Dark Knight (the big reason you'd choose Dark Knight over Valkyrie), but also potentially add a bunch more other stats depending on the battalions considered.

My rough estimate is that getting the necessary weapon proficiency necessary to go from Valkyrie to Dark Knight is going to cost you around one full letter rank of Faith training and one full letter rank of Authority when you're at level 30.  That is not a trivial trade-off, and it makes Valkyrie much closer in effectiveness to Dark Knight than most Dark Knight proponents would give it credit for.

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 minutes ago, SumG said:

The problem here is that this compounds an issue that stems from getting into Valkyrie in the first place.  Typically, in order to get into the Valkyrie class by level 20 you're going to need to stop training Faith in order to train riding for part of the early game.  It's very likely that mages you go into Valkyrie will not have their A-rank spells when they get into that class, and may not even have their B-rank spells yet.  Many of the mages you are likely to have some pretty darn good spells at those ranks that are worthwhile to get, but trying to get into Dark Knight will force you into a decision of prioritizing weapon ranks for the class path or Faith magic for useful spells.

 

I think this is a valid point, but... to be fair, a majority of Valkyrie candidates (Dorothea, Annette, Lysithea, Marianne, Constance from the list I originally posted) have all their useful faith spells learned by B, with two of them (Dorothea, Annette) having their last useful faith spell learned at C. Before anyone asks, no, I don't consider Aura or Abraxas useful. Really, it's just Hapi and Mercedes who learn something significant at A (along with Manuela and Flayn, but that adds to the argument they shouldn't do this build). If you don't need to build faith as heavilly, then the riding training is less of an obstacle. And in Hapi's case, despite wanting A faith, I have a hard time seeing Valkyrie as anything but her best Advanced class, since she has both relevant boons, and female dark mages have a natural synergy with Valkyrie due to it having a passive which boosts them.

[SumG]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And in Hapi's case, despite wanting A faith, I have a hard time seeing Valkyrie as anything but her best Advanced class, since she has both relevant boons, and female dark mages have a natural synergy with Valkyrie due to it having a passive which boosts them.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that it isn't worthwhile to go into Valkyrie to begin with.  I think most female mages are better off in Valkyrie than in Warlock, and I'm typically willing to delay getting top end Faith spells in order to get into the class at level 20.  It's just worthwhile to recognize the trade-offs you're making with that decision.  My point is just that the ~1000 weapon proficiency that's required to get into Dark Knight is not an insignificant consideration, and it could be very well spent in other places.

 

Most often when I'm playing on Maddening I will get a number of mages into Valkyrie (at least the ones that aren't Dark Fliers or Bishops), then just leave them there through most of the rest of the game.  If those units get to A Faith and A Authority, at that point I will start down the road towards getting the weapon proficiencies for Dark Knight.  But it's not a priority, and typically they will only be in Dark Knight for the last couple of chapters at best.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

13 hours ago, SumG said:

You will get some riding experience incidentally while in Valkyrie, but it's not a huge amount, which means you'll be relying heavily on weekly training and tutoring to make up these levels.

This feels like a throwaway line that we should instead be analyzing mathematically.

Let's suppose that, by the time Valkyrie is unlocked, the player has also unlocked the "Class XP +1" statue. In that case, it's gonna take 75 battles* (assuming no Mastermind, no Knowledge Gem) to master Valkyrie. A Riding-neutral unit will gain 3 Riding XP per battle in the process, which translates to 225 XP over 75 battles. For Riding-boon units (i.e. Marianne, Hapi), this becomes 4 * 75 = 300 XP, while any with a bane (i.e. Dorothea) will instead gain 2 * 75 = 150 XP. This means that non-bane units who certify in Valkyrie at C+ Riding will gain the 220 Riding XP necessary to hit B, just by being in the class. Let's assume you make it to B+ Reason by default. From there, you just need 300 Lance experience (or 180 Lance XP and 280 Riding XP) to try to certify in Dark Knight from two ranks behind - a bit RNG-dependent, but very much possible. 300 Lance XP plus 280 Riding XP lets you certify more reliably, from just one rank behind. And for any units with a Riding boon, they already earned 80 of that "280 Riding XP" just mastering the class. Just 50 more battles in Valkyrie can get them the remaining 200 XP.

TL;DR: The Riding XP gained naturally from mastering Valkyrie significantly defrays the cost of reaching "Dark Knight certification" territory. The "in-classroom" demands for a unit who has already mastered Valkyrie are honestly quite low, especially for one with a Riding boon.

* I say "battles", but I believe gambits and support spells - but not Rallies - also count for both class XP and Ridiing XP. Don't quote me on this!

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

A Riding-neutral unit will gain 3 Riding XP per battle in the process, which translates to 225 XP over 75 battles. For Riding-boon units (i.e. Marianne, Hapi), this becomes 4 * 75 = 300 XP, while any with a bane (i.e. Dorothea) will instead gain 2 * 75 = 150 XP.

It's actually more than that. A neutral unit gains +2 Exp for fighting with whatever skill they use plus the class bonus, so they'd gain +5 Riding Exp for every round of combat they fight in valkryie.

So if you master Valkyrie, that's actually 375 Riding Exp for a neutral unit and 450 with those with a boon.

Edited August 25, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[windypanda1]

With Knowledge Gem, it takes 1 or 2 auxiliary fights to go from B->A+. That’s when I usually go for the Alert Stance+, when I see that I unlocked Alert Stance.

Edited August 26, 2022 by windypanda1

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

22 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It's actually more than that. A neutral unit gains +2 Exp for fighting with whatever skill they use plus the class bonus, so they'd gain +5 Riding Exp for every round of combat they fight in valkryie.

So if you master Valkyrie, that's actually 375 Riding Exp for a neutral unit and 450 with those with a boon.

You're right, I tried this out yesterday. Sylvain, Lorenz, and Leonie, in Paladin, Dark Knight, and Bow Knight (all Riding +3 classes), respectively. Each gained 6 Riding XP per combat: 2 by default, 1 for the boon, and 3 from the class.

Valkyrie Lysithea was an interesting case. I had assumed she would gain (2 + 3) * 2 = 10 Riding XP per combat, but she only gained 7. Apparently, the Mastermind multiplier does not apply to the additive +3 Riding from the Valkyrie class. Since she'll master Valkyrie quite quickly (38 battles), she'll only gain 266 Riding XP over the same period. Of course, that's still enough to go from C+ -> B for essentially free. And if she stays in the class through the usual 75 battles, she'll close out with 525 Riding XP, more than enough to go C+ -> B+.

EDIT: @windypanda1 your assertion that

Spoiler

With Knowledge Gem, it takes 1 or 2 auxiliary fights to go from B->A+.

Sounds like a severe overstatement. I believe it takes 1080 (280 + 360 + 440) Flight XP to go from B to A+. With the Knowledge Gem, a Flight-neutral unit in a "Flight +3" class (i.e. Wyvern Rider, Dark Flier), will gain 10 Flight XP per combat. That's 108 combat sessions. Unless you're intentionally sandbagging your flier (i.e. leaving them unequipped, or casting Impregnable Wall) and just burning turns, then you're not going to get them into 108 battles in a single Aux battle. Hell, you'd be lucky to get half that in a single Aux weekend.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Response to WindyPanda1.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 8/25/2022 at 7:07 AM, SumG said:

Most often when I'm playing on Maddening I will get a number of mages into Valkyrie (at least the ones that aren't Dark Fliers or Bishops), then just leave them there through most of the rest of the game.  If those units get to A Faith and A Authority, at that point I will start down the road towards getting the weapon proficiencies for Dark Knight.  But it's not a priority, and typically they will only be in Dark Knight for the last couple of chapters at best.

Well, to emphasize an earlier point, most units don't need A faith, and most don't need A authority either... very few magical battalions require that rank. Macuil Evil Repelling Co. does, though that's a pretty lateral battalion compared to other generic options like Timotheos Mages, Ordelia Sorcery, Edmund Troops, Gloucester Troops, the Blessing battalions, and others... if I'm running lots of mages maybe I'll get someone to A for it, but it's not a priority.

Blue Lions Dancers is the other noteworthy one, but it's locked to one route and a bit of a special case regardless. Even then, though this post I made shows how Annette, for example, can achieve A authority while qualifying for Dark Knight in a timely manner, without guzzling down more than her fair share of training or doing any grinding. It was a no-DLC analysis; if Annette goes through Valkyrie and gains extra riding exp from that, her path is even easier.

To be clear I think it's perfectly reasonable to stick in Valkyrie, the range advantage is notable for sure. But the cost to getting to it is really rather light, especially due to the way Valkyries naturally build up riding rank as per Shanty Pete's math.

[SumG]

8 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, to emphasize an earlier point, most units don't need A faith, and most don't need A authority either... very few magical battalions require that rank. Macuil Evil Repelling Co. does, though that's a pretty lateral battalion compared to other generic options like Timotheos Mages, Ordelia Sorcery, Edmund Troops, Gloucester Troops, the Blessing battalions, and others... if I'm running lots of mages maybe I'll get someone to A for it, but it's not a priority.

That's fair, but that's not necessarily what's at play here.  That's an endgame consideration, not an immediate consideration at level 20.  When you're in just getting into Valkyrie, most of your units are not going to be anywhere near A-rank authority.  Units that started out in-house will likely be around C if you've been using them regularly, while a unit recruited from out of house will typically be somewhere in the D-tier or lower (depending on how long ago you recruited them).  Though I will note that recruited units that have a boon in authority will get some training in authority, so the effect is lessened on them (Annette, Lysithea, Constance).

There's a small gap in battalion quality between B and C, but a huge jump between C and D.  Being able to get into C-tier battalions earlier is a non-trivial consideration even if things even out a bit in the endgame.

[haarhaarhaar]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

EDIT: @windypanda1 your assertion that

  Reveal hidden contents

With Knowledge Gem, it takes 1 or 2 auxiliary fights to go from B->A+.

Sounds like a severe overstatement. I believe it takes 1080 (280 + 360 + 440) Flight XP to go from B to A+. With the Knowledge Gem, a Flight-neutral unit in a "Flight +3" class (i.e. Wyvern Rider, Dark Flier), will gain 10 Flight XP per combat. That's 108 combat sessions. Unless you're intentionally sandbagging your flier (i.e. leaving them unequipped, or casting Impregnable Wall) and just burning turns, then you're not going to get them into 108 battles in a single Aux battle. Hell, you'd be lucky to get half that in a single Aux weekend.

Yeah I'm pretty sure they were assuming grinding strats, rather than normal combat. 

1 hour ago, SumG said:

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, to emphasize an earlier point, most units don't need A faith, and most don't need A authority either... very few magical battalions require that rank. Macuil Evil Repelling Co. does, though that's a pretty lateral battalion compared to other generic options like Timotheos Mages, Ordelia Sorcery, Edmund Troops, Gloucester Troops, the Blessing battalions, and others... if I'm running lots of mages maybe I'll get someone to A for it, but it's not a priority.

That's fair, but that's not necessarily what's at play here.  That's an endgame consideration, not an immediate consideration at level 20.  When you're in just getting into Valkyrie, most of your units are not going to be anywhere near A-rank authority.  Units that started out in-house will likely be around C if you've been using them regularly, while a unit recruited from out of house will typically be somewhere in the D-tier or lower (depending on how long ago you recruited them).  Though I will note that recruited units that have a boon in authority will get some training in authority, so the effect is lessened on them (Annette, Lysithea, Constance).

There's a small gap in battalion quality between B and C, but a huge jump between C and D.  Being able to get into C-tier battalions earlier is a non-trivial consideration even if things even out a bit in the endgame.

I feel like this last point doesn't really line up with what you've been saying previously. Before, your issue was the cost of moving to Dark Knight from Valkyrie. But this last comment makes it look like the problem is actually the move to Valkyrie from intermediate tier. Which is a strange pivot, especially since C Authority (unless as you say, the unit has a bane or was recruited late) is achievable by late Part 1, especially for your in-house units. It doesn't matter so much for other units, because they don't have Chapter 13 to deal with, and early Part 2 (unless you're on CF I guess) allows you some latitude with teaching/goals etc.

If your problem was with the costs relative to reaching B Authority - and many of the battalions @Dark Holy Elf described above as good for mages are B-rank - then fair enough. Getting Authority-neutral/bane units to B-rank in a timely fashion requires effort, and that early investment in Riding might turn around to bite there. But again, if you readjust your expectations as suggested so that B-rank is the final relevant Authority rank for your mage, then it isn't an issue after all.

I actually do think the gap in battalion quality between B-rank and C-rank is nothing to sneeze at for mages though, because the good B-rank battalions often boost another stat by a non-trivial amount on top of the buff to Mag, and the C-rank battalions normally just buff Mag by a noticeable amount (except Hubert's battalion, and the Nuvelle one from the DLC that boost Magic).

[lenticular]

One thing that I do think is worth noting is that getting x (an ability, a class, a spell, whatever) earlier by a chapter or two varies in value a lot depending on exactly which chapter it is. Having a dodge tank available by chapter 13 rather than chapter 14 is a big improvement; having it available by chapter 14 rather than chapter 15 is largely inconsequential. Sooner is still better, of course, but really not all that much better. Or another example: having Lysithea learn Dark Spikes on Chapter 4 is much better than having her learn it on Chapter 5, but learning it on Chapter 5 is only a tiny bit better than having her learn it for Chapter 6.

If we're talking about how long it takes for a character to pick up some improvement, then it's not just relevant that some particular build gives it to them two chapters later. It also matters exactly which chapters they were. And, unfortunately, that's also one of the hardest things to compare since it can vary so much by play style.

[SumG]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:09 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

I feel like this last point doesn't really line up with what you've been saying previously. Before, your issue was the cost of moving to Dark Knight from Valkyrie. But this last comment makes it look like the problem is actually the move to Valkyrie from intermediate tier.

That's not quite it.  In order to get into Valyrie, you need to make a deviation in weapon proficiency away from the skills that are generally the most useful for a mage to have.  If you did not have to consider class prerequisites, you average mage would likely only pick up Reason, Faith, and Authority (and Faith and Authority would only be leveled to A at most).  Pretty much nothing else is directly relevant to a mage's utility in combat.  Movement +1 out of riding is nice, but I doubt anyone would bother to get to A+ riding solely for that.

In order to get into Valkyrie, you need to get up to B riding (realistically C+ riding for a realistic shot to pass certification).  In order to reach C+ riding, you need a combined 460 weapon experience (assuming you're starting at E).  That's a manageable amount of weapon experience, but it certainly has an effect in the midgame.  If you weren't going for Valkyrie, you could instead be dumping all that weapon experience into Faith or Authority (since your average mage isn't going to be certifying for any Intermediate tier class that can incidentally get riding proficiency in combat).  I won't speak for everyone, but I certainly notice the tradeoff I'm making in the units that I turn into Valkyries.  Instead of rounding out their Faith spell list by the time they reach the level 15-18, the last couple of spells tend to come in later on in the mid-20s because all that time in the Intermediate class is spent tutoring and training riding instead of focusing on Reason/Faith (even if Faith is only being trained as the 2nd weapon class on a weekly basis).  For example, if you plan on making Lysithea a Valkyrie, that probably means you won't be getting Warp until you're well past level 20, as you likely won't have B Faith by the time you have to start training to riding to get into Valkyie at level 20.  Whereas if you stick in the footlocked mage classes, you can just keep hammering Reason and Faith and pretty easily have Warp long before the time skip.  Authority is a victim of knock-on affects, as you typically don't start actively training Authority for a mage until you're finished training Faith to A, so any delay in training Faith will also delay training Authority as well.

Now like I said, this is a trade-off.  The cost is delayed access to Faith spells and Authority ranks, but the benefit is access to a horse mounted class for extra mobility and Canto, while also getting access to a fantastic class mastery, particularly for Dark magic users (Uncanny Blow).  I think that's worth the delay, and I'm typically pretty happy to send a couple units down the Valkyrie path in a given playthrough.

The problem with Dark Knight is that weapon proficiency training it requires exacerbates the problems I was describing before.  If you want to get into Dark Knight, it's going to take an additional ~1000 weapon experience beyond what is required for Valkyrie (and remember, that's on top of the 460 weapon proficiency that doesn't do anything helpful for you to get into Valkyrie in the first place.  It is true that you will start getting riding proficiency in combat due to being in a mounted class, but it is a modest amount compared to the requirements.  If after getting you Valkyrie certification you return to leveling Faith and Authority, you'll get your spells fairly quickly and can get into good battalions in short order.  They might be delayed by ~5 levels, compared to if you were in a footlocked class, but I find that an acceptable trade-off for what Valkyrie gives you.  But if you go into Dark Knight, you continuing to put off training Faith and Authority until likely you're actually in Dark Knight at level 30.  That means that at level 30 you might not have your B-tier and higher Faith spells and, if a unit doesn't have a boon in Authority, might be stuck with D-tier battalions.  Those are real costs compared to where a Valkyrie would be at the same point, having a complete spell list and being in C battalions if not B battalions.

I'm not necessarily saying that the people who go into Dark Knight are wrong, just that I disagree with the argument that gets made way too often that Dark Knight is a strict upgrade on Valkyrie.  To me, I don't think the delays in the spell list and battalions you can use are worth what you get from Dark Knight as a class (+3 effective magic and +1/-1 movement range/spell range).  Other people are welcome to think differently.  Whereas I do think the trade-offs that you make to get into Valkyrie (+1 movement, +1 spell range, Canto, and Uncanny Blow) compared to something like Gremory (+1 magic and double spell uses) are worth it.

[haarhaarhaar]

Thanks for explaining @SumG - I understand your earlier point a bit better now, and I can definitely appreciate that the costs put into Valkyrie are compounded by continuing on to Dark Knight (regardless of how worthwhile you think Dark Knight is). 

I'd still be quite surprised if any mage heading through Valkyrie to Dark Knight couldn't reach C Authority (more likely C+) by Level 30 without much or any favouritism. Of course, that's excluding Hapi, the only Authority-bane character relevant to this I think?

 

Going back to the OP's question about Valkyrie builds, I wonder if there is a consensus on here about the top character pick for Valkyrie. Obviously, I've mentioned Hapi here, who has everything needed to make Valkyrie work really well (except that Authority bane). But I'm thinking that Dorothea is possibly an equivalently good pick on Maddening. Hapi is the better mage overall, but that also means Hapi's strengths are a better fit in other classes, whereas Dorothea's strengths arguably shine best in Valkyrie. If you had to pick one character for Valkyrie, who would it be?

Edited August 28, 2022 by haarhaarhaar

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, SumG said:

For example, if you plan on making Lysithea a Valkyrie, that probably means you won't be getting Warp until you're well past level 20, as you likely won't have B Faith by the time you have to start training to riding to get into Valkyie at level 20.  Whereas if you stick in the footlocked mage classes, you can just keep hammering Reason and Faith and pretty easily have Warp long before the time skip.

While I agree with your general point - that training in Riding means stalling in training other relevant areas, such as Faith and Authority - Lysithea is a particularly poor example for this point. To get from E+ to B-rank Faith, it'll take her 660 Faith XP. The first 60 must come through instruction, so that's 600 left to potentially earn on the field. A big number, to be sure, but Lysithea has a Faith boon and the Mastermind skill, giving her 6 Faith XP for every usage (Heal, Nosferatu, Seraphim). This increases to 7 in Monk or Mage, and 8 in Priest. If she uses Faith 30 times for Monk mastery, that's 210 Faith XP right there. So there's 390 left to reach Warp. That's 49 Heals as a Priest, or 56 Heals in Mage. So, with as few as 79 Heals or offensive Faith casts, Lysithea hits Warp (again, with no classroom instruction beyond the initial 60 Faith XP). That's certainly attainable by mid-Intermediate tier in the pre-skip. And truthfully, in the case of Lysithea, I would call Warp her single-biggest contribution to your army (sorry, Dark Spikes fans). Getting to B-Faith should be her biggest priority.

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Going back to the OP's question about Valkyrie builds, I wonder if there is a consensus on here about the top character pick for Valkyrie. Obviously, I've mentioned Hapi here, who has everything needed to make Valkyrie work really well (except that Authority bane). But I'm thinking that Dorothea is possibly an equivalently good pick on Maddening. Hapi is the better mage overall, but that also means Hapi's strengths are a better fit in other classes, whereas Dorothea's strengths arguably shine best in Valkyrie. If you had to pick one character for Valkyrie, who would it be?

Dorothea has a Riding bane, though, increasing the amount of instruction needed to even give her a shot at certifying. I would say that Warlock or Gremory (classes that give her a second Meteor, and don't require training against a bane) are her most suitable classes. There's also an argument for Mortal Savant (Sword proficiency, strongest possible Hexblade). She can be good as a Valkyrie, no doubt, but I wouldn't say she's uniquely well-suited for it.

As for who is best at the class, that's hard to say. Hapi is unique among female units in being strong in both Reason and Riding... but she has an Authority bane, and she really wants to hit A-Faith for Warp. Marianne has a Riding (and Faith) boon, but is neutral in Reason. Annette enjoys boons in Reason and Authority, and doesn't care about Faith beyond Recover at C-rank. Lysithea is strong in Reason (and Faith, and Authority), but is neutral in Riding. Finally, Constance is strong in Reason (and Authority), but neutral Riding, and wants to hit B-Faith for Rescue.

I don't know if I can pick one among these units that's "best" in Valkyrie. My "top 3" would probably be Hapi, Marianne, and Lysithea. But even then, sometimes Hapi and Lysithea want to be in Bishop or Gremory, for a second Warp. And Marianne being Reason-neutral might make it harder to certify. And even for these three, I'd probably try to elevate them to Dark or Holy Knight - although, there may be maps where Valkyrie is situationally better.

[Dark Holy Elf]

11 hours ago, SumG said:

In order to get into Valkyrie, you need to get up to B riding (realistically C+ riding for a realistic shot to pass certification).  In order to reach C+ riding, you need a combined 460 weapon experience (assuming you're starting at E).  That's a manageable amount of weapon experience, but it certainly has an effect in the midgame.  If you weren't going for Valkyrie, you could instead be dumping all that weapon experience into Faith or Authority (since your average mage isn't going to be certifying for any Intermediate tier class that can incidentally get riding proficiency in combat).  I won't speak for everyone, but I certainly notice the tradeoff I'm making in the units that I turn into Valkyries.  Instead of rounding out their Faith spell list by the time they reach the level 15-18, the last couple of spells tend to come in later on in the mid-20s because all that time in the Intermediate class is spent tutoring and training riding instead of focusing on Reason/Faith (even if Faith is only being trained as the 2nd weapon class on a weekly basis).  For example, if you plan on making Lysithea a Valkyrie, that probably means you won't be getting Warp until you're well past level 20, as you likely won't have B Faith by the time you have to start training to riding to get into Valkyie at level 20.  Whereas if you stick in the footlocked mage classes, you can just keep hammering Reason and Faith and pretty easily have Warp long before the time skip.  Authority is a victim of knock-on affects, as you typically don't start actively training Authority for a mage until you're finished training Faith to A, so any delay in training Faith will also delay training Authority as well.

 

You keep mentioning A faith and I remain confused by it. You even brought up Lysithea, whose last useful faith spell is at B. If you're getting her to A just for whatever useless spell she learns there then do yourself a favour and save yourself 640 skill exp by not doing so, at least until you've qualified for every class you want and have reached the authority rank you desire.

Getting Lysithea to Valkyrie while also having Warp requires B reason, C riding (actually, C+ in both is slightly cheaper, but I assume you want Dark Spikes), B faith, and we'll say C authority for the C-rank resonant battalion. That's a total of 1920 exp, although she starts with 180 of it, so 1740. I find it hard to believe you can't earn 1740 total skill exp on Lysithea by the time you're hitting Level 20, particularly considering she has Mastermind and has boons in every skill here except Riding. Add 160 to this number if you'd prefer to get C+ riding to make the certification more reliable. Some of the specifics depend on your assumptions from here - exactly when are you hitting level 20, are you willing to use the sauna at all, etc. But it's far easier than you're making it sound. Speaking from experience I always have Warp on Lysithea by the time she hits Valkyrie if in-house. Out-of-house is a bit harder and depends on exactly when she's recruited, but that's true regardless of her planned Advanced class, and is not specific to Valkyrie. Warlock, on top of being a less useful class for her, actually only takes 20 less exp to have a chance to certify for (though admittedly, it's all in area that Lysithea has a boon for, and all helps her work towards later pickups of Hades Omega and Dark Range+1).

11 hours ago, SumG said:

The problem with Dark Knight is that weapon proficiency training it requires exacerbates the problems I was describing before.  If you want to get into Dark Knight, it's going to take an additional ~1000 weapon experience beyond what is required for Valkyrie (and remember, that's on top of the 460 weapon proficiency that doesn't do anything helpful for you to get into Valkyrie in the first place.

It's far less than 1000 in practice; it's 300 for C lances and maybe a very, very small amount more for riding (but you'll get most of what you need naturally, as per math posted earlier). C+ riding, C lances, and B+ reason (there's no way any mage worth their salt doesn't have B+ reason by Level 30) nets a ~50% certification rate.

I'm quite happy to post more math details like the Annette build I linked earlier if you'd like, especially if you're willing to elaborate a bit on your playstyle/assumptions with regard to exactly when you hit 20, whether you use sauna at all, whether you are willing to reset failed certifications to save seals, etc.

[haarhaarhaar]

TL;DR I think Valkyrie makes best use of what Dorothea has, below is my case.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Dorothea has a Riding bane, though, increasing the amount of instruction needed to even give her a shot at certifying. I would say that Warlock or Gremory (classes that give her a second Meteor, and don't require training against a bane) are her most suitable classes. There's also an argument for Mortal Savant (Sword proficiency, strongest possible Hexblade). She can be good as a Valkyrie, no doubt, but I wouldn't say she's uniquely well-suited for it.

As for who is best at the class, that's hard to say. Hapi is unique among female units in being strong in both Reason and Riding... but she has an Authority bane, and she really wants to hit A-Faith for Warp. Marianne has a Riding (and Faith) boon, but is neutral in Reason. Annette enjoys boons in Reason and Authority, and doesn't care about Faith beyond Recover at C-rank. Lysithea is strong in Reason (and Faith, and Authority), but is neutral in Riding. Finally, Constance is strong in Reason (and Authority), but neutral Riding, and wants to hit B-Faith for Rescue.

I don't know if I can pick one among these units that's "best" in Valkyrie. My "top 3" would probably be Hapi, Marianne, and Lysithea. But even then, sometimes Hapi and Lysithea want to be in Bishop or Gremory, for a second Warp. And Marianne being Reason-neutral might make it harder to certify. And even for these three, I'd probably try to elevate them to Dark or Holy Knight - although, there may be maps where Valkyrie is situationally better.

I definitely take the point about the riding bane, but I think there's lots beyond that which make Dorothea a strong enough pick to force her to train against her riding bane, and make her final class Valkyrie. Here are the reasons I can think of:

1. Dorothea has Thoron. It's the best 3-range spell, and of the other candidates floated in your post and above, only her and Marianne have it. More on the match-up between her and Marianne below.

2. Dorothea has Meteor. Constance is the only other candidate with a long-range spell, and while Bolting is generally better than Meteor, Meteor's splash damage means it benefits even more from having extra range (because it will be easier to select a target that is in the centre of an enemy formation, and thus splash multiple enemies at once). On top of that, Dorothea has supports with many more characters than Constance, meaning that she's more likely to be able to help out with linked attack bonuses.

3. Dorothea's Faith list is small. This doesn't sound like a benefit, but it means that you don't have to spend a ton of time/resources beyond finding her hidden talent to get her to C Faith, meaning you can spend more time training other things, like Reason, Authority, and yes Riding. Valkyrie doesn't make you train Faith like Gremory, and Faith lists are generally unsupported by the Valkyrie class, so if your Faith list is good there's a genuine question about whether Valkyrie is best for you. That question doesn't come up for Dorothea. On top of that, she gets Physic from that list, which is straightforwardly better than Annette, whose Faith list you mentioned, and is all she needs if you want her to provide support when she isn't attacking.

4. Dorothea doesn't kill for very long. Again, this doesn't sound like a benefit. But of the candidates for Valkyrie, Dorothea has the lowest Mag growth rate, and once her Speed stops keeping up with average enemies, she's only really capable of ORKOing armors (and I've seen late-game armors/GKs tank her outright). Most of these other mages (excluding Annette probably) ORKO for much longer, meaning it is in your interest to build them so that their magic attack stays as high as possible for as long as possible. That build isn't Valkyrie - Valkyrie is the gold standard for dealing chip damage, and so mages that are least likely to keep up with Maddening enemies should be the ones for whom Valkyrie is most favourable. Like Dorothea. 

5. Dorothea gets Sagittae. Annette and Constance also do, so this isn't as strong a reason in support of Dorothea, but Sagittae has a strong balance between Mt (7) and number of uses (10), making it a go-to spell for your chip damage. The mages without Sagittae all have it a bit tougher with managing when and how often to cast their good spells. It's relatively unlikely that a mage will burn through all their spells in the course of a battle, but having Sagittae for normal combat means you can keep in reserve your unique spells (like Thoron) for when they really matter. 

Taken on their own, each point above also applies to at least one other candidate (sometimes to a greater degree). But all five points together apply to Dorothea, which is why the overall case for Valkyrie Dorothea, relative to the entire cast, is stronger than you've painted it to be.

On Dorothea vs Marianne:

A well-built Valkyrie is ideally getting S-Rank Reason. Marianne is only neutral in Reason, so she will get S-Rank later, if she gets it at all. You could argue that Marianne has a far easier time of getting Mv +1, but for this class Range +1 is better, because it ignores terrain issues, and sniping regardless of terrain is a large part of a Valkyrie's job. 

Marianne is also stronger at close range (Frozen Lance >> Hexblade, Soulblade > Hexblade) than Dorothea, so if you want to make use of that a high-movement class is important. However, Dark Knight and Dark Flier both exceed Valkyrie on this front (or Paladin/Falcon Knight if you don't need magic access), and building for close range somewhat jars with Valkyrie's own benefits. Dorothea doesn't have this issue, because her Hexblade is really not good enough to be built on for Maddening (trust me, I tried). 

On Dorothea vs. Hapi/Lysithea:

Hapi and Lysithea are stronger mages, by most metrics that matter. Which is why classes that allow them to fight/support as much as possible (Gremory), as powerfully as possible (DK), or just fly (Dark Flier) all make valid demands to be their final class, as well as meme builds that they do well in. It's precisely because Dorothea is not as good that she shouldn't be attempting to compete with them at things that they will likely do better anyway. Valkyrie draws out the things Dorothea can do well to the best of her ability, rather than letting Dorothea be a pale imitation of Hapi/Lysithea. 

Put another way, since Valkyrie's big selling point is range (at the expense of power/movement/spell uses depending on what you compare it to), Hapi and Lysithea have to sacrifice parts of their other strengths if they use it as their final class. They still could probably get kills, even into the lategame, but they will miss kills they could get otherwise, or fail to provide support they could otherwise have done, because they're in Valkyrie. They make Valkyrie work well because they are strong, but Valkyrie isn't necessarily best for them. On the other hand, Valkyrie Dorothea makes a more compelling case for inclusion in my late-game party than any other class I can think of for her - but I wouldn't say the same about Hapi/Lysithea, because they work well/better in other magic classes.

On Dorothea's other classes:

Warlock/Gremory are standardly good builds for Dorothea, as you say, and Mortal Sav makes the most out of Hexblade. But, frankly, Hexblade is not a particularly strong art, and Dorothea doesn't have enough magic in normal scenarios to do more than chip with it on Maddening - given this, she may as well chip from range. As for Warlock/Gremory, it's fine for her, but it's better for others, and only Physic elevates her above Warlock Hanneman, for example.

On Dorothea's riding bane:

I personally don't mind save-scumming for certifications, so I wouldn't train Riding past C-rank. Of course, getting to C by Level 20 (especially since Dorothea won't enter a riding class before Valkyrie) will require planning and some effort. But it's 300 WEXP, which is far from tough, even with a bane. Plenty of people do the same without question for Felix's Authority (indeed, people would be doing it for Hapi's Authority with this build!). So it's an issue, but not such a serious issue that it should stop Dorothea from going for this class.

 

It's also worth noting that Dorothea doesn't have a Crest, so either you might give her Caduceus and not Thyrsus (unless you're on NG+) or you give her Thyrsus and have her heal herself/be healed every so often.  Every mage wants Thyrsus, so if you disqualify Dorothea from using it, then that eases demand a little. At the same time, optimising Valkyrie requires Thyrsus, so not being able to equip it without drawbacks might cause a problem for you. I actually can't tell how big a deal this is - I regularly trade around equipment even during battle, and I don't often let my back line take hits on Enemy Phase, so relic damage rarely worries me - but I thought I'd flag it because I just remembered and that might turn people off the build. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by haarhaarhaar

[Dark Holy Elf]

 

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Dorothea doesn't kill for very long. Again, this doesn't sound like a benefit. But of the candidates for Valkyrie, Dorothea has the lowest Mag growth rate, and once her Speed stops keeping up with average enemies, she's only really capable of ORKOing armors (and I've seen late-game armors/GKs tank her outright). Most of these other mages (excluding Annette probably) ORKO for much longer, meaning it is in your interest to build them so that their magic attack stays as high as possible for as long as possible.

It's probably worth mentioning that Dorothea with spells actually one-hit-kills for longer than Annette or Marianne (their spells topping out at 11-12 power erodes any advantage they might have in magic growth), and only trails Mercedes and Hapi by very small amounts. I agree with your broader point, though. Magic units probably shouldn't be used to try to kill non-armours in one round past a certain point. Valkyrie's not much worse at maintaining one-hit kills than other magic classes anyway. And of course, Valkyrie can equip a Magic Staff and have the same range as other mages with Caduceus, while matching all but the 4-move Warlock for power.

That said any mage should really be one-rounding armour forever (SS endgame aside, those Great Knights are juiced for res... and possibly VW endgame as well). If your mage is doing so poorly on magic or speed growth that they're failing to one-round armours then I would switch them to another class for better stats (though there are various tricks you can use instead if you prefer: Speed Ring / Weight-3 if the issue is speed, Magic Staff / better battalion / +might adjutant if the issue is power, stat boosters / cooking for either). I just consider one-rounding armours to be a very important function mages serve, because a lot of physical builds struggle to do it, especially against the ones carrying Prot-boosting battalions.

 

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I personally don't mind save-scumming for certifications, so I wouldn't train Riding past C-rank. Of course, getting to C by Level 20 (especially since Dorothea won't enter a riding class before Valkyrie) will require planning and some effort.

The planning can consist of "set it as one of her two goals for 18-19 weeks" (i.e. around 7 months). If you start later due to chasing other ranks early and fear you will come up short, then wait until you have the saint statue boost to riding and, if available, a sauna boost, which combined can make active instruction up to 4 times as potent.

By comparison, the number is 15 weeks for someone who is neutral in riding, which isn't that different (just over a month). The effects of banes is often overestimated when it comes to reaching ranks you only need to get to D+ or C (but important for ones you want to get to high ranks). This is because a bane (or boon) does not have a large effect on passive instruction (+/-20% modifier on Maddening) but does have a larger effect on most other methods of skill exp gain (up to +/-100% in the case of a active instruction with no outside modifiers).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

2. Dorothea has Meteor. Constance is the only other candidate with a long-range spell, and while Bolting is generally better than Meteor, Meteor's splash damage means it benefits even more from having extra range (because it will be easier to select a target that is in the centre of an enemy formation, and thus splash multiple enemies at once). On top of that, Dorothea has supports with many more characters than Constance, meaning that she's more likely to be able to help out with linked attack bonuses.

Ironically, I would argue that this is a point against Valkyrie - or any class without doubled spell count - for Dorothea. True, she has longer range with Meteor, but once she's cast it, it's gone. Once used, she can no longer use it to provide a linked attack boost to her allies. Constance, at least, has a spell with two charges by default - one to cast, one for linked attack support (although quad-bolting makes a case for Warlock/Gremory Constance, too). Plus, training in Riding at all means it takes her longer to get Meteor, and Black Magic Range +1, than it would in a pure "Reason/Authority + C Faith" build.

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

3. Dorothea's Faith list is small. This doesn't sound like a benefit, but it means that you don't have to spend a ton of time/resources beyond finding her hidden talent to get her to C Faith, meaning you can spend more time training other things, like Reason, Authority, and yes Riding. Valkyrie doesn't make you train Faith like Gremory, and Faith lists are generally unsupported by the Valkyrie class, so if your Faith list is good there's a genuine question about whether Valkyrie is best for you. That question doesn't come up for Dorothea. On top of that, she gets Physic from that list, which is straightforwardly better than Annette, whose Faith list you mentioned, and is all she needs if you want her to provide support when she isn't attacking.

I agree with this one. Bishop and Gremory are both theoretically good classes for Dorothea, but both demand her to train a Faith rank that's useless to her otherwise. I haven't mathed out, between Dorothea (Faith bane that becomes a boon via budding talent) and Annette (Faith neutral), which one has an easier time getting to C-Faith, but it's probably a wash. While Dorothea's Physic > Annette's Recover, Annette's Rally suite (Strength, Speed, Res) > Dorothea's Rally (Charm). And if anything, being in a high-move class is more valuable to direct actions (like Recover or Rallying) than it is to long-range tools (such as Physic).

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

4. Dorothea doesn't kill for very long. Again, this doesn't sound like a benefit. But of the candidates for Valkyrie, Dorothea has the lowest Mag growth rate, and once her Speed stops keeping up with average enemies, she's only really capable of ORKOing armors (and I've seen late-game armors/GKs tank her outright). Most of these other mages (excluding Annette probably) ORKO for much longer, meaning it is in your interest to build them so that their magic attack stays as high as possible for as long as possible. That build isn't Valkyrie - Valkyrie is the gold standard for dealing chip damage, and so mages that are least likely to keep up with Maddening enemies should be the ones for whom Valkyrie is most favourable. Like Dorothea. 

That's a fair point on the Magic growth. Of the units who've even been brought up in the conversation, she's only ahead of Ingrid (whom I acknowledged as an "off-build"), and she's actually behind the usually-physical Edelgard. That said, this argument can easily be turned on its head - if someone like Lysithea doesn't need a built-in Faire to secure the one-shot, then the extra attacking range of Valkyrie is better for her. Conversely, if Dorothea is falling just shy of one-shotting with a spell, then a Faire-class, such as Dark Knight, could put her over the edge.

Still, let's say I take this point on its face - that Dorothea won't be one-shotting, and it's best to optimize her chipping ability. In that case, let me bring Dark Flier into the equation. While it doesn't have an innate range-boosting skill, it does offer flying mobility, plus one more point of move by default. Any target she can hit as a Valkyrie, she can hit as Dark Flier. And on maps with cavalry-unfriendly terrain, her ability to fly in, chip, and Canto away will be unparalleled. She can't hit from a safe 3 tiles away... except that she can using Thoron, or Caduceus. There's only one magical flying battalion... but if she's only doing chip, the extra power it would provide may not even be needed. Finally, while Dorothea has a bane in Flight, it should be obvious on its face that hitting B Reason and D+ Flight (two ranks behind) is less effort for her than hitting B Reason and C Riding (again, two ranks behind).

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

5. Dorothea gets Sagittae. Annette and Constance also do, so this isn't as strong a reason in support of Dorothea, but Sagittae has a strong balance between Mt (7) and number of uses (10), making it a go-to spell for your chip damage. The mages without Sagittae all have it a bit tougher with managing when and how often to cast their good spells. It's relatively unlikely that a mage will burn through all their spells in the course of a battle, but having Sagittae for normal combat means you can keep in reserve your unique spells (like Thoron) for when they really matter. 

Sagittae defense squad, activate! Genuinely don't know what they were thinking, giving us a spell that's as accurate as Fire, with as many uses as Fire, and with 4 Might and 5 Crit over Fire... whose only downside is 3 extra Weight. It's part of why I consider Dorothea (and Hanneman, and Constance) serious competitors for "best Reason list in the game".

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

A well-built Valkyrie is ideally getting S-Rank Reason. Marianne is only neutral in Reason, so she will get S-Rank later, if she gets it at all. You could argue that Marianne has a far easier time of getting Mv +1, but for this class Range +1 is better, because it ignores terrain issues, and sniping regardless of terrain is a large part of a Valkyrie's job. 

Again, I'll turn this point on its head, and take it for granted that Marianne isn't getting to S-rank Reason. In that case, her only option for 3-range "normal" spells (and 4-range Thoron), before considering equippable staves, comes in the form of Valkyrie. Dorothea can get to S-rank Reason sooner than her, sure, but "Black Magic Range +1" isn't magically better for Valkyrie than it is for any other magic classes (Warlock, Gremory, Dark Flier). "Black Magic Range +1", both the learned version and the built-in version, are great on any Black Mage. And they're better together, but not to the point that I would say "well, if I can't have one of them, then there's no use getting the other!"

Again, I disagree with the "Valkyrie's job" framework - each unit will have their own particular job you want them to do, and if Valkyrie makes them better at it, all the better! If Valkyrie's higher Magic gives Lysithea an extra Warp tile that she wouldn't have as a Bishop or Dark Knight, then it makes sense to cast her in the class. If it lets Marianne secure a Frozen Lance one-shot that she wouldn't have in any other mounted magical class, then great for her. Classes don't have just one defined "job" - it's about what the player wants, and can get, out of them.

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Warlock/Gremory are standardly good builds for Dorothea, as you say, and Mortal Sav makes the most out of Hexblade. But, frankly, Hexblade is not a particularly strong art, and Dorothea doesn't have enough magic in normal scenarios to do more than chip with it on Maddening - given this, she may as well chip from range. As for Warlock/Gremory, it's fine for her, but it's better for others, and only Physic elevates her above Warlock Hanneman, for example.

Why does it matter if it's "better for others"? Are we arbitrarily limiting ourselves to a single instance each of Warlock and Gremory? If I find value in a second Meteor, then it's the class I'll bring Dorothea in. If not, I'll choose something with more mobility.

Fair point on Hexblade. I think I've been drunk with power on Soulblade from Lysithea and Constance. That shit is securing so many one-shots. 

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Put another way, since Valkyrie's big selling point is range (at the expense of power/movement/spell uses depending on what you compare it to), Hapi and Lysithea have to sacrifice parts of their other strengths if they use it as their final class. They still could probably get kills, even into the lategame, but they will miss kills they could get otherwise, or fail to provide support they could otherwise have done, because they're in Valkyrie. They make Valkyrie work well because they are strong, but Valkyrie isn't necessarily best for them. On the other hand, Valkyrie Dorothea makes a more compelling case for inclusion in my late-game party than any other class I can think of for her - but I wouldn't say the same about Hapi/Lysithea, because they work well/better in other magic classes.

This again boils down somewhat to our dispute over the "class's job" framework, but I would add an addendum that I don't really consider Valkyrie and Dark Knight to be competitors. Rather, they supplement each other. Any female unit whose destination is Dark Knight is almost certainly going through Valkyrie. Valk's requirements are a subset of Dark Knight's own, and it offers the best mastery skill of any advanced-tier Magical class. However, that doesn't mean that anyone who makes it to Dark Knight will totally leave Valkyrie behind - rather, they'll have a choice between two classes. Do they prefer the extra movement and higher damage of Dark Knight, or the extra range and higher raw Magic of Valkyrie? This can vary from chapter to chapter, and with 3H's class system, the player can swap between them at will.

Now, is it worth the extra training in Riding and Lances, merely to have that option? That's a personal decision at the player's discretion. In the case of Dorothea, with a bane in Riding, there's a case to be made for "reaching Valkyrie, and then stopping". Switching to focus just on Reason and Authority will get her valuable skills and battalions all the sooner. Of course, a similar case can be made for Mercedes and Lysithea (both neutral in Riding, but weak in Lances). So I don't think Dorothea is exactly "unique" in this regard. With Mercie and Lysithea, I chose to give them both Dark Knight access after Valkyrie. Would I do the same for Dorothea, in a world where I've already made her a Valkyrie? I honestly don't know.

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

It's also worth noting that Dorothea doesn't have a Crest, so either you might give her Caduceus and not Thyrsus (unless you're on NG+) or you give her Thyrsus and have her heal herself/be healed every so often.  Every mage wants Thyrsus, so if you disqualify Dorothea from using it, then that eases demand a little. At the same time, optimising Valkyrie requires Thyrsus, so not being able to equip it without drawbacks might cause a problem for you. I actually can't tell how big a deal this is - I regularly trade around equipment even during battle, and I don't often let my back line take hits on Enemy Phase, so relic damage rarely worries me - but I thought I'd flag it because I just remembered and that might turn people off the build. 

Ah, I remember my days of trading around the Mage Ring in Echoes... good times. I've found that I don't trade Thyrsus around as much - maybe because my mages tend to be scattered all around the map, and there are other options like the Caduceus and the Magic Staff - but the principle remains. I don't think the HP loss is appreciable enough to stop Dorothea from using Thyrsus, because if she's under attack on Enemy Phase (without having been Impregnable Wall'd), then you're probably playing the game wrong.

27 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Magic units probably shouldn't be used to try to kill non-armours in one round past a certain point.

Lysithea (to Constance): "Get in, loser, we're going one-shotting."

30 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

By comparison, the number is 15 weeks for someone who is neutral in riding, which isn't that different (just over a month). The effects of banes is often overestimated when it comes to reaching ranks you only need to get to D+ or C (but important for ones you want to get to high ranks). This is because a bane (or boon) does not have a large effect on passive instruction (+/-20% modifier on Maddening) but does have a larger effect on most other methods of skill exp gain (up to +/-100% in the case of a active instruction with no outside modifiers).

Assuming you haven't been training Teach in Riding, haven't had a perfect sauna session, and haven't unlocked the Riding statue boost, Dorothea will gain a whopping 2 points in Riding from each tutoring moment. That's 8 points from 4 "GOOD"s, or 20 points from 5 "PERFECT"s, in one session.

But if all those things are true, then you get +2, +4, and +2, for a measly 10 points in one tutoring moment. Which translates to 40 points from 4 "GOOD"s, or 100 points from 5 "PERFECT"s, in one session.

Which doesn't contradict anything you said, but is just my attempt to show how all those modifiers make one hell of a difference. That said, I think you meant "+/-50%" when it comes to active instruction. Since 2 is 50% less than 4, while 6 is 50% more than 4.

[haarhaarhaar]

12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's probably worth mentioning that Dorothea with spells actually one-hit-kills for longer than Annette or Marianne (their spells topping out at 11-12 power erodes any advantage they might have in magic growth), and only trails Mercedes and Hapi by very small amounts.

I could definitely believe she kills for longer than Annette (from personal experience Annette has lasted a little longer, but maybe that's just because of effective damage). Marianne's Frozen Lance keeps her competitive even when spells don't, so I definitely think she's a cut above. I generally remember Mercedes and Hapi lasting longer, although potentially that's because of my own biases (I thought they were stronger, so maybe spent more time on them than Dorothea, and the gap widens, etc.)

12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The planning can consist of "set it as one of her two goals for 18-19 weeks" (i.e. around 7 months). If you start later due to chasing other ranks early and fear you will come up short, then wait until you have the saint statue boost to riding and, if available, a sauna boost, which combined can make active instruction up to 4 times as potent.

By comparison, the number is 15 weeks for someone who is neutral in riding, which isn't that different (just over a month). The effects of banes is often overestimated when it comes to reaching ranks you only need to get to D+ or C (but important for ones you want to get to high ranks). This is because a bane (or boon) does not have a large effect on passive instruction (+/-20% modifier on Maddening) but does have a larger effect on most other methods of skill exp gain (up to +/-100% in the case of a active instruction with no outside modifiers).

Yeah I didn't think it took a lot of work, but couldn't be bothered to do the numerical comparison - thanks for stepping in. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ironically, I would argue that this is a point against Valkyrie - or any class without doubled spell count - for Dorothea. True, she has longer range with Meteor, but once she's cast it, it's gone. Once used, she can no longer use it to provide a linked attack boost to her allies. Constance, at least, has a spell with two charges by default - one to cast, one for linked attack support (although quad-bolting makes a case for Warlock/Gremory Constance, too). Plus, training in Riding at all means it takes her longer to get Meteor, and Black Magic Range +1, than it would in a pure "Reason/Authority + C Faith" build.

I agree with the above, except your conclusion that it counts against Valkyrie. Having two Meteor compared to one is nice, but the extra 2-3 range Valkyrie has on Gremory/Warlock can be the difference between Meteor being relevant and not in the first place. I also don't cast long-range spells unless I absolutely can't leave a far-away enemy alive (I appreciate other people may be less conservative) - to me, the primary benefit of Meteor is the linked attack boost, and that's how I use it. I think the case for Warlock/Gremory is stronger for Constance, precisely because you don't have to play like I do to get both damage and support from Bolting. Constance genuinely has the option to attack from afar without worrying about losing that bonus. Dorothea struggles to have it both ways, which is why I think you should double down on her range to make her support more relevant, rather than giving her an extra shot of damage. You do make a fair case for the other side, though. 

As for training riding, training to minimum B rank Faith for Gremory, even with a boon, is still going to take a reasonable amount of time - and that training brings absolutely no benefits to Dorothea. If you're happy to stop Dorothea at Warlock, then yes the training costs are lower, but the loss of 2 movement/Uncanny Blow/+1 range for a lot of the time she's in Warlock is at the very least comparable, if not a greater cost to her. 

One could potentially make her progression Mage > Warlock > Valkyrie, and take longer over Riding training. Obviously it takes longer to get Valkyrie itself, and by extension Uncanny Blow (which is more useful than Bowbreaker), but the Riding requirement wouldn't need to be higher than C because you've overshot the Reason requirement, and you may even be at A+ Reason naturally by the time you're ready for Valkyrie. As long as Dorothea is using Reason, Warlock will be available for her to dip into if you're desperate for that second Meteor (so you could go Valkyrie > Warlock if you wanted), but I don't think the Warlock class itself exceeds Valkyrie for Dorothea. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

While Dorothea's Physic > Annette's Recover, Annette's Rally suite (Strength, Speed, Res) > Dorothea's Rally (Charm). And if anything, being in a high-move class is more valuable to direct actions (like Recover or Rallying) than it is to long-range tools (such as Physic).

Annette has good rallies, but I find they aren't particularly relevant by the time Valkyrie comes into play (on Maddening, anyway). Annette doesn't get Rally Str, she gets Rally Mv - either way, it's all but irrelevant because even getting to S Authority is questionable. Rally Speed stops making a huge difference from late Part 1 or so, when the Maddening enemies start splitting into the two tiers of kinda slow and brokenly quick, so it's only situational by the time people are getting into Valkyrie, as is Rally Res. There aren't a ton of instances where you need to tank a mage and can't already do it with an available unit. I think Rally Res also boosts Soulblade, but again, that's a situational use. You're right that movement matters for Recover/rallying, but again, every point of range you can give Physic makes it more likely to be relevant (especially for Dorothea, who can only Heal and Physic as supporting actions). 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That said, this argument can easily be turned on its head - if someone like Lysithea doesn't need a built-in Faire to secure the one-shot, then the extra attacking range of Valkyrie is better for her. Conversely, if Dorothea is falling just shy of one-shotting with a spell, then a Faire-class, such as Dark Knight, could put her over the edge.

You could say that, but Dorothea won't reach Lysithea's output even if she has a Faire and Lysithea doesn't. No pure mage is consistently ORKOing by the late game, so you may as well make their strengths stronger. In Lysithea's case of course, she can do basically anything she wants. But Dark Knight will not improve Dorothea so much that she beats out these other mages to the top magical attacker spot. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Still, let's say I take this point on its face - that Dorothea won't be one-shotting, and it's best to optimize her chipping ability. In that case, let me bring Dark Flier into the equation. While it doesn't have an innate range-boosting skill, it does offer flying mobility, plus one more point of move by default. Any target she can hit as a Valkyrie, she can hit as Dark Flier. And on maps with cavalry-unfriendly terrain, her ability to fly in, chip, and Canto away will be unparalleled. She can't hit from a safe 3 tiles away... except that she can using Thoron, or Caduceus. There's only one magical flying battalion... but if she's only doing chip, the extra power it would provide may not even be needed. Finally, while Dorothea has a bane in Flight, it should be obvious on its face that hitting B Reason and D+ Flight (two ranks behind) is less effort for her than hitting B Reason and C Riding (again, two ranks behind).

Yeah I definitely don't think Dark Flier is a bad choice for Dorothea. Flying may even be attractive enough to tip it over Valkyrie. The reason I don't feel that way, though, is because 

a) For a mage, attacking from further away is genuinely preferable to getting in close and cantoing out, because the Enemy Phase risk is much lower, and you have more flexibility in which space you occupy when attacking, allowing the mage to provide more support as a linked attacker and preventing them from getting in the way of other position-based strategy. The extra movement you use to get in closer detracts from Canto movement, which could also cause an issue. Of course, flight is amazing, and ignoring movement penalties/obstructions will allow her to get hits that Valkyrie won't, but Valkyrie will more reliably keep her safe after attacking (and won't burn through Thoron as quickly).

b) Valkyries can deal with Archers/Snipers. I think this is a big enough benefit to be classed separately to a). Dark Flier has to use the Aurora Shield/S+ ability/Thyrsus/Caduceus and Thoron to even attempt this, but Valkyrie can just use Thoron, or any spell with a range-boosting item, to deal with them safely. It's a niche that stays very relevant in Part 2, and Valkyries excel in it (to the point where you might field one expressly for this purpose). This benefit is compounded when it comes to Bow Knights, although they are a less common enemy overall. 

c) Transmute is basically air. Uncanny Blow is great no matter what for mages, and especially great for Valkyries because their whole shtick is range. 

d) Battalions do matter. This isn't a hill that I need to die on (Dark Flier has the faire, which will at least partially compensate for the attack difference not equipping a battalion would create), but having a gambit, and buffs to other stats as well as Magic is of course a good thing. The magical flying battalion exists, so it's not the end of the world - the question is, is there anyone you'd prefer in Dark Flier to Dorothea? If the answer is yes, then the battalion point tilts in favour of Valkyrie. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Sagittae defense squad, activate! Genuinely don't know what they were thinking, giving us a spell that's as accurate as Fire, with as many uses as Fire, and with 4 Might and 5 Crit over Fire... whose only downside is 3 extra Weight. It's part of why I consider Dorothea (and Hanneman, and Constance) serious competitors for "best Reason list in the game".

I'm surprised the spell doesn't get more love, given how much work it does for the mages in question. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Again, I'll turn this point on its head, and take it for granted that Marianne isn't getting to S-rank Reason. In that case, her only option for 3-range "normal" spells (and 4-range Thoron), before considering equippable staves, comes in the form of Valkyrie. Dorothea can get to S-rank Reason sooner than her, sure, but "Black Magic Range +1" isn't magically better for Valkyrie than it is for any other magic classes (Warlock, Gremory, Dark Flier). "Black Magic Range +1", both the learned version and the built-in version, are great on any Black Mage. And they're better together, but not to the point that I would say "well, if I can't have one of them, then there's no use getting the other!"

I think this might just be the difference in approach between our responses. In the above, I lean towards a min-max approach, where I accentuate a character's strengths as far as possible, even if that results in accentuating their weaknesses. I think your line of thought is that 3H's tools (also) allow you to fix or compensate for a unit's weaknesses, bringing their overall combat ability up, even if that results in not making the absolute most of their strengths - and you're pretty flexible about picking the right class for the moment. I don't think these approaches are invalid or even mutually exclusive (as you also point out), but you can guess what my response to your point here will be - BMR+1 is magically better for Valkyrie than other classes, because it makes their innate strength (range) even better. It's still great on other classes, it's just particularly great on Valkyrie. Given this, a unit that can get the skill again is a better fit for Valkyrie than a unit that can't or does so later. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Again, I disagree with the "Valkyrie's job" framework - each unit will have their own particular job you want them to do, and if Valkyrie makes them better at it, all the better! If Valkyrie's higher Magic gives Lysithea an extra Warp tile that she wouldn't have as a Bishop or Dark Knight, then it makes sense to cast her in the class. If it lets Marianne secure a Frozen Lance one-shot that she wouldn't have in any other mounted magical class, then great for her. Classes don't have just one defined "job" - it's about what the player wants, and can get, out of them.

Hehe, again as above, I agree and disagree. By all means, use classes flexibly in order to get better results. But if you're seeking the best results, it's often by building a unit so that their strengths synergise as much as possible with their class etc. I happily admit that you can use classes for whatever purpose you like, and you don't have to stick rigidly to one image of them. However, by their nature, classes lend themselves to particular roles over others, and I take this into account when I plan out character builds for them. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Why does it matter if it's "better for others"? Are we arbitrarily limiting ourselves to a single instance each of Warlock and Gremory? If I find value in a second Meteor, then it's the class I'll bring Dorothea in. If not, I'll choose something with more mobility.

It's not one Warlock/Gremory necessarily - but assuming you have as many characters available to you as possible, she wouldn't normally make it into my late-game party as a Warlock or Gremory. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Fair point on Hexblade. I think I've been drunk with power on Soulblade from Lysithea and Constance. That shit is securing so many one-shots

Agreed, it's a real shame that Hexblade doesn't work like that, because it would really rescue people like Manuela. Oh well. 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This again boils down somewhat to our dispute over the "class's job" framework, but I would add an addendum that I don't really consider Valkyrie and Dark Knight to be competitors. Rather, they supplement each other. Any female unit whose destination is Dark Knight is almost certainly going through Valkyrie. Valk's requirements are a subset of Dark Knight's own, and it offers the best mastery skill of any advanced-tier Magical class. However, that doesn't mean that anyone who makes it to Dark Knight will totally leave Valkyrie behind - rather, they'll have a choice between two classes. Do they prefer the extra movement and higher damage of Dark Knight, or the extra range and higher raw Magic of Valkyrie? This can vary from chapter to chapter, and with 3H's class system, the player can swap between them at will.

Now, is it worth the extra training in Riding and Lances, merely to have that option? That's a personal decision at the player's discretion. In the case of Dorothea, with a bane in Riding, there's a case to be made for "reaching Valkyrie, and then stopping". Switching to focus just on Reason and Authority will get her valuable skills and battalions all the sooner. Of course, a similar case can be made for Mercedes and Lysithea (both neutral in Riding, but weak in Lances). So I don't think Dorothea is exactly "unique" in this regard. With Mercie and Lysithea, I chose to give them both Dark Knight access after Valkyrie. Would I do the same for Dorothea, in a world where I've already made her a Valkyrie? I honestly don't know.

I agree with all of this I think! Although I would say it's less demanding to make Mercedes/Lysithea Dark Knights, because D+/C Lances is far more achievable for them than B/B+ Riding is for Dorothea, even with Valkyrie helping her out. So the calculus isn't quite the same for them. Still, while I think I wouldn't send Dorothea all the way to Dark Knight, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to. What I'm not sure about is whether Dark Knight Dorothea is strong enough to warrant that commitment. Again, I lean towards no, but happy to see the opposing case.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't think the HP loss is appreciable enough to stop Dorothea from using Thyrsus, because if she's under attack on Enemy Phase (without having been Impregnable Wall'd), then you're probably playing the game wrong.

This was my thought as well, but I'm never sure about how representative my play style is of the community.

Edited August 29, 2022 by haarhaarhaar

[Dark Holy Elf]

Good discussion here. I don't have a strong general opinion on the main debate regarding whether it's better to shore up strengths of weaknesses in a case like this, but it's fun to read.

17 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Assuming you haven't been training Teach in Riding, haven't had a perfect sauna session, and haven't unlocked the Riding statue boost, Dorothea will gain a whopping 2 points in Riding from each tutoring moment. That's 8 points from 4 "GOOD"s, or 20 points from 5 "PERFECT"s, in one session.

But if all those things are true, then you get +2, +4, and +2, for a measly 10 points in one tutoring moment. Which translates to 40 points from 4 "GOOD"s, or 100 points from 5 "PERFECT"s, in one session.

Which doesn't contradict anything you said, but is just my attempt to show how all those modifiers make one hell of a difference. That said, I think you meant "+/-50%" when it comes to active instruction. Since 2 is 50% less than 4, while 6 is 50% more than 4.

Yeah, if you read the rest of my post you'll notice I talk about the importance of waiting for the saint statue/sauna (or professor expertise, yes) before doing active instruction, because a base number of 2 is indeed a pain. It's passive instruction where the riding bane doesn't matter much, so some forethought about setting it as a goal goes a long way.

For your last two sentences... well. Glad I studied mathematics for half a decade just to keep making mistakes like that. 🙂 Thanks for pointing it out.

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I could definitely believe she kills for longer than Annette (from personal experience Annette has lasted a little longer, but maybe that's just because of effective damage). Marianne's Frozen Lance keeps her competitive even when spells don't, so I definitely think she's a cut above. I generally remember Mercedes and Hapi lasting longer, although potentially that's because of my own biases (I thought they were stronger, so maybe spent more time on them than Dorothea, and the gap widens, etc.)

Oh, if we're bringing in magic combat arts to the conversation, then yes, Frozen Lance kills for longer than Hexblade does. Conversely, though, if we're bringing those in, then Dorothea also potentially kills for longer than Hapi or Mercedes, who don't have a magical CA at all. I was speaking of spells, though, for the record. Just from the stats, there isn't much daylight between these characters: Hapi has +5% growth on Dorothea (1 point per 20 levels), and while Mercedes has +10%, she's also -1 at base. It's worth mentioning that Hapi also lacks a +might support (as does Marianne).

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Annette has good rallies, but I find they aren't particularly relevant by the time Valkyrie comes into play (on Maddening, anyway). Annette doesn't get Rally Str

I agree with you that rallies decline in worth by the time Valkyrie exists (and tbh are never great, Rally Charm earlygame is ironically about the only one I particularly value these days), but Annette does in fact have Rally Strength, it's from her personal.

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Agreed, it's a real shame that Hexblade doesn't work like that, because it would really rescue people like Manuela. Oh well. 

Hexblade is pretty cool honestly, with the caveat that you really want to have a Rapier+ for it. Its best niche is killing cavalry (34 power!). Also you seem to be under the impression (maybe I'm misreading) that it trails Soulblade in power. Actually, Hexblade has equal or higher power until the caster reaches 20 res, something that only Marianne among Soulblade users reaches easily. The two CAs are close to identical. (Frozen Lance is indeed better, but that has more to do with there being some high-power lance relics available.)

17 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I agree with this one. Bishop and Gremory are both theoretically good classes for Dorothea

I wouldn't group these two together in this case. Gremory is a good class for Dorothea, and one she qualifies for extremely easily. Since you presumably want to get Physic for her early, she will naturally get to, say, C+ faith by Level 30 just from using faith spells, which is already a 50% certification rate for Gremory. It's a great class for her because it doubles her uses of Meteor/Thoron while giving her 1 more move than Warlock, and easy for her to get to.

By comparison, Bishop is an absolutely awful class for her IMO. Bishop requires B+ faith (or a lot of both luck and Luck), which is a significant investment with zero value otherwise, and the only key spell it doubles uses of is Physic (10 is better than 5, but 5 suffices for many fights I find), and kneecaps her power at a point of the game where she can still one-hit kill otherwise (Valkyrie has +2 dmg and can more easily use the Magic Staff while reaching targets).

Edited August 29, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[haarhaarhaar]

36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oh, if we're bringing in magic combat arts to the conversation, then yes, Frozen Lance kills for longer than Hexblade does. Conversely, though, if we're bringing those in, then Dorothea also potentially kills for longer than Hapi or Mercedes, who don't have a magical CA at all. I was speaking of spells, though, for the record. Just from the stats, there isn't much daylight between these characters: Hapi has +5% growth on Dorothea (1 point per 20 levels), and while Mercedes has +10%, she's also -1 at base. It's worth mentioning that Hapi also lacks a +might support (as does Marianne).

Ah, fair enough. Also good points about Hapi and Marianne lacking a Mt support. Maybe it really is just my subjectivity making me say Dorothea tails off much earlier than the other mages, or Dorothea has just levelled poorly for me.

39 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I agree with you that rallies decline in worth by the time Valkyrie exists (and tbh are never great, Rally Charm earlygame is ironically about the only one I particularly value these days), but Annette does in fact have Rally Strength, it's from her personal.

You're completely right, I was just reading over the ability list like a robot and forgot about her personal.

42 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hexblade is pretty cool honestly, with the caveat that you really want to have a Rapier+ for it. Its best niche is killing cavalry (34 power!). Also you seem to be under the impression (maybe I'm misreading) that it trails Soulblade in power. Actually, Hexblade has equal or higher power until the caster reaches 20 res, something that only Marianne among Soulblade users reaches easily. The two CAs are close to identical. (Frozen Lance is indeed better, but that has more to do with there being some high-power lance relics available.)

You're right, but it's really jarring to read this, given how much more success I've had with killing with Soulblade than with Hexblade - and I think I've tried to build every Hexblade-learning unit to use Hexblade to the best of their ability at some point or other. Maybe it's a reflection on which characters learn which art... but I regularly find Soulblade performs better than Hexblade with Constance. It could just be that my mages are regularly Res-blessed? Not sure how to explain it.

[Asmont Osborne]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Actually, Hexblade has equal or higher power until the caster reaches 20 res, something that only Marianne among Soulblade users reaches easily.

Probably just a nitpick and not relevant, but shouldn’t the Res threshold be ~17? Hexblade has a fixed +7 might, while Soulblade has +2 +0.3x (where x is the unit’s Res stat). So in order for 0.3x to fill the gap (as in, 0.3x = 5) you would only need 16.6, which is ~17.

Not sure if this changes anything, Marianne is still probably the best unit in the game at abusing magical arts (she also has more than anyone else, I believe), but all of Lysithea, Constance and Anna can certify for classes with good Res bases if needed, even though I don’t think any class has 17 base Res.