Rethinking Pokemon: Rethinking non-mascot Legendaries/Mythicals and their lores

[henrymidfields]

Allow me to join the Rethinking soapbox for this. I know Legendaries and Mythicals are often tied to the Generations that they are introduced. There are cases that this makes sense - mascot legendaries such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Celebi from Johto comes into mind, as they are often tied to the region's lore.

But there are also a lot of other legendaries and mythicals that aren't tied to the lore (or very minimally), and I think reusing them for future regions and explicitly making them "universal" legendaries, or even retroactively making them natives in future regions should be a thing. There's also very little indication that they are one-of-a-kind and that they can't breed, and for that reason, I wouldn't mind if they are stated to be multiple kinds of them. They don't always have to be levels of demigods.

The Bird Trio: Let's face it, they have minimal plot relevance to Kanto, and just look like birds with elements. Their Pokedex entries only really indicate how they interact and influence the climates around them. I would have very much preferred that they were the roaming Pokemon in post-game Black and White instead of the Kami Trio (aside from the opinion that I really do not like having a Japanese-Shintoist legendary set in a US/NYC region), with Articuno roaming in Winter, Moltres in Spring, and Zapdos in Summer. Also, they're birds - they can at least theoretically migrate.
My verdict: Universal

Latios/Latias: As far as I have heard - maybe I've missed something - I haven't really heard anything that ties them to Hoenn's lore. As with the Bird Trio, they can also migrate too, and the indications of gender makes me think that they can also breed - just very rare and away from human eyes. I actually wouldn't mind if they were retroactively tied to a future region's lore, like how they were guardians of Alto Mare in one of the Pokemon movies.
My verdict: Either universal or future-native

Mew: While it has clear ties to Kanto, the RBY games explicitly states that Mew was found outside of that region (Guyana, South America). What about a Pokemon region resembling a part of South America?
My verdict: Future-native

Mewtwo: While it is a legendary of Gen 1, it's at least implied in the games, and outright stated in the anime (in Mewtwo Returns) that Mewtwo stays away from humans. Then there's its appearance in Gen 6 too. Why not expand that, and outright state that Mewtwo has been searching for secluded places ever since it fled the Cinnabar lab?
My verdict: Make an explanation of how Mewtwo migrated.

Cresselia/Darkrai: Again, maybe I've missed something - but I haven't really heard anything that ties them to Sinnoh's lore, and at least Cresselia (not sure about Darkrai) can fly/migrate.
My verdict: Universal

The original Regi Trios: They are notable for being the first Pokemon canonically used by a Trainer, both in the games, the anime, and the Special manga (Brandon), implying they're not as dangerous for Trainers, and there are already a few canonical places they inhabit, plus we have further Regis introduced in later generations. So maybe they're not Hoenn-specific, but multiples exist across the Poke-Earth.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Shaymin: Again, maybe I've missed something - but I haven't really heard anything that ties it to Sinnoh's lore. And if Mallow's Shaymin was a thing in the anime, maybe any secluded place with clean air works. Kanto, Unova, and mainland Galar (and maybe Johto too) are out of bounds for being polluted/urbanized, but there's no reason why Shaymin can't exist in Hoenn, Alola, or the DLC regions of Galar.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Meloetta: Bulbapedia does mention Meloetta's involvement with inspiration amongst Unova's artists, but I can't find any lore-based reason why this has to be specifically Unova. Kalos, Galar, Paldea, or a Poke-Italy/Greece region should work just as fine.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Heatran: Existence of known genders implies that they can breed (again, very rare and outside of human eyes), and there's no reason why it has to live specifically on Sinnoh as long as there is a Volcano. The only thing limiting its appearance would be its sheer rarity.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Diancie: Similar to my theory on Heatran, there's no reason why Diancie shouldn't be found in any area where diamonds can be found. Again rarity is the only limiting factor.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Hoopa: Now, for this one, I'd rather make an culturally Arabic Pokemon region, make it a standard legendary over there.
My verdict: Future-native

Edited August 25, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

28 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Heatran: Existence of known genders implies that they can breed (again, very rare and outside of human eyes), and there's no reason why it has to live specifically on Sinnoh as long as there is a Volcano.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Ooh, what if a future region gave us a native pure Fire-type species, that would evolve into Heatran when traded with the Metal Coat?

30 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Diancie: Similar to my theory on Heatran, there's no reason why Diancie shouldn't be found in any area where diamonds can be found.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Diancie should only exist where Carbink exist. Conversely, if Carbink are around, then there's no reason Diancie shouldn't make an appearance.

And bring back its Mega you cowards.

32 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

The original Regi Trios: They are notable for being the first Pokemon canonically used by a Trainer, both in the games, the anime, and the Special manga (Brandon), implying they're not as dangerous for Trainers

cries in Self-Destruct

33 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

The Bird Trio: Let's face it, they have minimal plot relevance to Kanto, and just look like birds with elements. Their Pokedex entries only really indicate how they interact and influence the climates around them. I would have very much preferred that they were the roaming Pokemon in post-game Black and White instead of the Kami Trio (aside from the opinion that I really do not like having a Japanese-Shintoist legendary set in a US/NYC region), with Articuno roaming in Winter, Moltres in Spring, and Zapdos in Summer. Also, they're birds - they can at least theoretically migrate.
My verdict: Universal

The second movie actually connected them to Lugia, but I'm not sure if that formally translates to game lore. Anyway, since we just got Galarian forms of them, I've seen enough of the birds for a while.

34 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Mew: While it has clear ties to Kanto, the RBY games explicitly states that Mew was found outside of that region (Guyana, South America). What about a Pokemon region resembling a part of South America?
My verdict: Future-native

That would be very cool. Maybe a region based on the Amazon, with a jungle theme throughout? It could even be a "side story" set before the first game, where you're part of the expedition that's hunting for Mew.

[henrymidfields]

29 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That would be very cool. Maybe a region based on the Amazon, with a jungle theme throughout? It could even be a "side story" set before the first game, where you're part of the expedition that's hunting for Mew.

Now that you mentioned this, I kinda wished this was a DLC side story in LGPE... Or maybe the next Pokemon Legends game?

29 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The second movie actually connected them to Lugia, but I'm not sure if that formally translates to game lore. Anyway, since we just got Galarian forms of them, I've seen enough of the birds for a while.

Don't think it does. A lot of anime stuff seems to do their own thing with legendaries etc. Entei in Pokemon Movie 3 has a different story than the Entei in GSC, for example. The legendaries in the main anime story are a bit more consistent with the games. 

29 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, what if a future region gave us a native pure Fire-type species, that would evolve into Heatran when traded with the Metal Coat?

Certainly would be a cool addition to an existing legendary

29 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Diancie should only exist where Carbink exist. Conversely, if Carbink are around, then there's no reason Diancie shouldn't make an appearance.

Maybe make it a 1% encounter or a standard Legendary where there are Carbinks? An XY remake could definitely do with this.

32 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

cries in Self-Destruct

By that logic, what about Golem's, Electodes, or Foretress's Self-Destruct?

Edited August 25, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

The Bird Trio: Let's face it, they have minimal plot relevance to Kanto, and just look like birds with elements. Their Pokedex entries only really indicate how they interact and influence the climates around them. I would have very much preferred that they were the roaming Pokemon in post-game Black and White instead of the Kami Trio (aside from the opinion that I really do not like having a Japanese-Shintoist legendary set in a US/NYC region), with Articuno roaming in Winter, Moltres in Spring, and Zapdos in Summer. Also, they're birds - they can at least theoretically migrate.
My verdict: Universal

37 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The second movie actually connected them to Lugia, but I'm not sure if that formally translates to game lore. Anyway, since we just got Galarian forms of them, I've seen enough of the birds for a while.

Some games do try to stablish a connection. Though usually in a meta sense in that you can't encounter the birds/Lugia unless you have the other. In Mystery Dungeon Rescue Team they outright state their gathering awoke the guardian of the seas, as in, Lugia. Best I know, that's actually the only outright stated connection the four Pokémon have. Hasn't been mentioned in mainline games... I think.

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

Latios/Latias: As far as I have heard - maybe I've missed something - I haven't really heard anything that ties them to Hoenn's lore. As with the Bird Trio, they can also migrate too, and the indications of gender makes me think that they can also breed - just very rare and away from human eyes. I actually wouldn't mind if they were retroactively tied to a future region's lore, like how they were guardians of Alto Mare in one of the Pokemon movies.
My verdict: Either universal or future-native

They seem to live in Southern Island. That's where you find the one that doesn't roam, and in the remakes, you actually have to visit the island as part of the main plot, for Magma/Aqua are trying to get them themselves.

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

Mew: While it has clear ties to Kanto, the RBY games explicitly states that Mew was found outside of that region (Guyana, South America). What about a Pokemon region resembling a part of South America?
My verdict: Future-native

I think there has been some kind of retcon, because Emerald introduced Faraway Island, where Mew can be found, and a worn-down sign contains writing made by Mr. Fuji.

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

Shaymin: Again, maybe I've missed something - but I haven't really heard anything that ties it to Sinnoh's lore. And if Mallow's Shaymin was a thing in the anime, maybe any secluded place with clean air works. Kanto, Unova, and mainland Galar (and maybe Johto too) are out of bounds for being polluted/urbanized, but there's no reason why Shaymin can't exist in Hoenn, Alola, or the DLC regions of Galar.
My verdict: Universal, and multiple instances

Well, Shaymin is tied to Floaroma, as the one that according to legend restored the barren wasteland into a blooming meadow, all thanks to people's gratitude. This event is seen in Legends Arceus itself. There's also the Flower Paradise which seems to be its actual home, east of the Battle Resort, which path opens up by expressing feelings of gratitude at the white rock at the end of Route 224.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[henrymidfields]

20 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, Shaymin is tied to Floaroma, as the one that according to legend restored the barren wasteland into a blooming meadow, all thanks to people's gratitude. This event is seen in Legends Arceus itself. There's also the Flower Paradise which seems to be its actual home, east of the Battle Resort, which path opens up by expressing feelings of gratitude at the white rock at the end of Route 224.

Right, I haven't really played Legends Arceus yet, so I'll have to check that one. The anime seems to treat it more like another super rare Pokemon instead of a Mythical, though. There's even a few scenes with multiple Shaymins. What's to say that there can't be more than one flower paradises across the globe?

Edited August 25, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Acacia Sgt]

12 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Right, I haven't really played Legends Arceus yet, so I'll have to check that one. The anime seems to treat it more like another super rare Pokemon instead of a Mythical, though. There's even a few scenes with multiple Shaymins.

Well, yeah, the anime is its own separate continuity, after all.

That said... hmm, well, Shaymin itself is always mentioned as just being the one, in the mainline games at least. But then you can transfer a Shaymin from one of the Ranger games to the mainline ones, where there is still the other Shaymin. So there's at least two of them.

Oh, right, Explorers of Sky has a village full of them, too.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[henrymidfields]

18 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, yeah, the anime is its own separate continuity, after all.

That said... hmm, well, Shaymin itself is always mentioned as just being the one, in the mainline games at least. But then you can transfer a Shaymin from one of the Ranger games to the mainline ones, where there is still the other Shaymin. So there's at least two of them.

Oh, right, Explorers of Sky has a village full of them, too.

...Now I'm confused. ...So the mainline games reckon Shaymin is a Mythical, but the spin-offs and the anime treat it otherwise. Kind of makes me wonder if GF should just remove its mythical status like they did with Deoxys in ORAS.

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

...Now I'm confused. ...So the mainline games reckon Shaymin is a Mythical, but the spin-offs and the anime treat it otherwise. Kind of makes me wonder if GF should just remove its mythical status like they did with Deoxys in ORAS.

Well, Explorers would be its own continuity, perhaps even own world, so there might not be any clash. It's only with that Rangers game that things get muddy. Then again, it's been a long while since then, so as it stands we might still be only with just the one Shaymin for the mainline continuity. It's hard to say at this point. Can always be retcon out or not.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[henrymidfields]

I know this is late, but I now wonder why wasn't the Zoroark line a mythical in BW1 considering them being featured in the Zoroark movie, and trying to obtain them involves getting the shiny legendary from attending that movie screening, and you cannot get them any other way outside of trading with BW2. It would have saved people a lot of grief with the Dex completion.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:42 AM, henrymidfields said:

I know this is late, but I now wonder why wasn't the Zoroark line a mythical in BW1 considering them being featured in the Zoroark movie, and trying to obtain them involves getting the shiny legendary from attending that movie screening, and you cannot get them any other way outside of trading with BW2. It would have saved people a lot of grief with the Dex completion.

Personally, I'm grateful that Zorua and Zoroark weren't Mythical or Legendary Mons. That would likely result in no other trainers - namely N - using them. Plus, Gen V was at the height of "legendary glut" - we had the Kami trio, the Tao trio, the Three Muskedeers, plus the mythicals: Victini, Meloetta, Keldeo, and Genesect. All species that, by nature of being Legendary, were excluded from opposing Trainers' teams (again, excepting N). Personally, I think the Muskedeers (including Keldeo) and Meloetta would've been better-handled as just rare species - thus opening the door for, say, Caitlin to use a Meloetta, or Marshall to run Cobalion.

...That said, the requirements for you to get either Zorua or Zoroark in the original BW were a little over-the-top. I was lucky enough to have received the download legendaries to trigger their associated events. But I sympathize with those who could not. I would've been a fan of making them obtainable in the base game, albeit as a rare encounter.

[henrymidfields]

On 9/22/2023 at 4:10 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 Personally, I think the Muskedeers (including Keldeo) and Meloetta would've been better-handled as just rare species - thus opening the door for, say, Caitlin to use a Meloetta, or Marshall to run Cobalion.

Now that you mentioned it, it would have been a nice to see how the Three Musketeers Pokemon got from Kalos to Unova.