I don't get it.

[Juigi Kario]

Why do people say Meta Knight is broken and worth banning, but Pit's arrow spam is easy to thwart? That doesn't make sense.

Let's look at Meta Knight. He's a dark swordsman whose character indicates that he's supposed to kick your butt if you aren't careful. Of course, he has no projectiles, so he has to approach you. His tornado can be shielded off, and his other approaches can be punished anyway, and his Down Smash, while instantaneous, has decent at best range so it's not going to nail somebody rolling out of the way of a possible A combo. Then there's the fact that Meta Knight has bad weight, so he dies fast once he's pushed around.

But Pit......what? Okay, so let's assume I'm not using a character like Meta Knight who can use an attack like the drill. How do you dodge the arrows so that you don't get locked in, and moreover, how do you do that without an approach that can be reacted to and countered easily? Oh, jump because the arrows have a 45 degree blind spot? How many characters even cover diagonal attacks well with projectiles, let alone without sacrificing horizontal projectile cover or plain having slow projectiles? Even Ness and Samus altogether have never done that despite having been the original SSB's poster projectile users. And anyway, how am I going to get high enough before I get hit? Pit can direct his arrows and they go ridiculously fast. Airdodge? Ah, but it's quite likely I'm coming OUT OF jumping, not into it, when he gets me far enough away to start shooting. Yeah, you can't even kill him fast enough before he slaps you away, he has decent weight and 4 jumps. Yeah, Pit himself has no glaring weaknesses while we're on the subject--but of course if not for the arrows he wouldn't have any glaring strengths either. And the problem gets particularly bad when you're using a heavyweight like ROB, because that weight means nothing against being brought up to a high percentage where a clean hit can finish you off.

Can somebody tell me a weakness in Pit's arrows that doesn't apply to a lot of people's projectiles, because I sure can't think of one, and if there indeed isn't, I gotta agree with Grit from Advance Wars:

Edited December 2, 2008 by Juigi Kario

[DeSu]

Why do people say Meta Knight is broken and worth banning, but Pit's arrow spam is easy to thwart? That doesn't make sense.

Let's look at Meta Knight. He's a dark swordsman whose character indicates that he's supposed to kick your butt if you aren't careful. Of course, he has no projectiles, so he has to approach you. His tornado can be shielded off, and his other approaches can be punished anyway, and his Down Smash, while instantaneous, has decent at best range so it's not going to nail somebody rolling out of the way of a possible A combo. Then there's the fact that Meta Knight has bad weight, so he dies fast once he's pushed around.

But Pit......what? Okay, so let's assume I'm not using a character like Meta Knight who can use an attack like the drill. How do you dodge the arrows so that you don't get locked in, and moreover, how do you do that without an approach that can be reacted to and countered easily? Oh, jump because the arrows have a 45 degree blind spot? How many characters even cover diagonal attacks well with projectiles, let alone without sacrificing horizontal projectile cover or plain having slow projectiles? Even Ness and Samus altogether have never done that despite having been the original SSB's poster projectile users. And anyway, how am I going to get high enough before I get hit? Pit can direct his arrows and they go ridiculously fast. Airdodge? Ah, but it's quite likely I'm coming OUT OF jumping, not into it, when he gets me far enough away to start shooting. Yeah, you can't even kill him fast enough before he slaps you away, he has decent weight and 4 jumps. Yeah, Pit himself has no glaring weaknesses while we're on the subject--but of course if not for the arrows he wouldn't have any glaring strengths either. And the problem gets particularly bad when you're using a heavyweight like ROB, because that weight means nothing against being brought up to a high percentage where a clean hit can finish you off.

Can somebody tell me a weakness in Pit's arrows that doesn't apply to a lot of people's projectiles, because I sure can't think of one, and if there indeed isn't, I gotta agree with Grit from Advance Wars:

MK has amazing recovery, incredibly fast attacks, and is very difficult to punish. He may be sent flying at lower percents, but if you're facing a good MK, you're not gonna get many chances to even get him to lower percents. He can gimp recoveries extremely easily. I've been KOed by MKs at 30% and under due to multiple jumps, fast attacks, and a recovery with incredible knockback.

Pit, though he has arrow and >B spam, is fairly easy to take out. His recovery is good, but can easily be taken out by a simple hit or projectile. Also, his arrows may be annoying, but air dodging is your friend. And also, try to play a few mind games with your patterns, which will make him screw up.

[Juigi Kario]

5 midair jumps, a glide, and all 4 B options allowing for further recovery don't help if you hit a blast line before you get to use any of it. They do allow Meta Knight to easily recover.

Meta Knight's attacks may be fast, but they're still close range.

Difficult to punish? Maybe, but certainly not impossible.

As for Pit, he is defensive in general. If you do airdodge, he'll just punish the attempt to exploit the blind spot. And his recovery is still very good WITHOUT the Up B (which by the way allows for further maneuverability, losing it to a single hit is no big deal when, oh, right, you can go under the stage), what with the 3 midair jumps or the glide. And he has decent weight, remember. It's actually a big deal in his case because that means he never hits the blast lines directly for a while unless he gets gimped. Again, he's defensive in general, any Pit worth their weight will see that from a mile away. Even if you do mind game him, you'd still have to avoid being shot at all, because recovering from the stun takes too long.

[DeSu]

5 midair jumps, a glide, and all 4 B options allowing for further recovery don't help if you hit a blast line before you get to use any of it. They do allow Meta Knight to easily recover.

Meta Knight's attacks may be fast, but they're still close range.

Difficult to punish? Maybe, but certainly not impossible.

As for Pit, he is defensive in general. If you do airdodge, he'll just punish the attempt to exploit the blind spot. And his recovery is still very good WITHOUT the Up B (which by the way allows for further maneuverability, losing it to a single hit is no big deal when, oh, right, you can go under the stage), what with the 3 midair jumps or the glide. And he has decent weight, remember. It's actually a big deal in his case because that means he never hits the blast lines directly for a while unless he gets gimped. Again, he's defensive in general, any Pit worth their weight will see that from a mile away. Even if you do mind game him, you'd still have to avoid being shot at all, because recovering from the stun takes too long.

Pit may have those arrows, but he also has close range. In fact, I think MK has more range on a lot of moves. MK can close distance fairly easily. Also, Pit moves in slow-mo compared to MK. MK's near-lagless moves can link smoothly into one another, forming a vicious attacking front.

[Knife]

That Tornado and his Shuttle Loop are what really make him broken. The Tornado can run through Pit's arrows, then punish Pit for the slight arrow lag.

[Rei]

*sigh*

Why do people say Meta Knight is broken and worth banning, but Pit's arrow spam is easy to thwart? That doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense...

Let's look at Meta Knight. He's a dark swordsman whose character indicates that he's supposed to kick your butt if you aren't careful. Of course, he has no projectiles, so he has to approach you. His tornado can be shielded off, and his other approaches can be punished anyway, and his Down Smash, while instantaneous, has decent at best range so it's not going to nail somebody rolling out of the way of a possible A combo. Then there's the fact that Meta Knight has bad weight, so he dies fast once he's pushed around.

Wrong. Metaknight has great pressure games. His movement on ground is fast, and he can just tornado your shield safely all day until it breaks if he wants. Causing you to do something. Not just that, but spaced tilts from metaknight are very hard to get by. His range is actually pretty damn good with Down-smash, and his up-B has next to no landing lag after a slash, so you can't shieldgrab that either. His approaches really can't be punished as easily as you think.

But Pit......what? Okay, so let's assume I'm not using a character like Meta Knight who can use an attack like the drill.

Uh, okay... The drill sucks for approaching anyway.

How do you dodge the arrows so that you don't get locked in, and moreover, how do you do that without an approach that can be reacted to and countered easily? Oh, jump because the arrows have a 45 degree blind spot? How many characters even cover diagonal attacks well with projectiles, let alone without sacrificing horizontal projectile cover or plain having slow projectiles? Even Ness and Samus altogether have never done that despite having been the original SSB's poster projectile users. And anyway, how am I going to get high enough before I get hit? Pit can direct his arrows and they go ridiculously fast. Airdodge? Ah, but it's quite likely I'm coming OUT OF jumping, not into it, when he gets me far enough away to start shooting. Yeah, you can't even kill him fast enough before he slaps you away, he has decent weight and 4 jumps. Yeah, Pit himself has no glaring weaknesses while we're on the subject--but of course if not for the arrows he wouldn't have any glaring strengths either. And the problem gets particularly bad when you're using a heavyweight like ROB, because that weight means nothing against being brought up to a high percentage where a clean hit can finish you off.

Dodge roll, shield dashing. End of story. If you get owned by pit's arrows, you're not thinking right. pit having no glaring weaknesses? Don't make me laugh. Lack of good killing moves is quite apparent. He can be shield grabbed by a ton of the cast. He can be outspaced by several characters. He's pretty easy to punish after attacks. Unlike Pit, Metaknight has EXTREMELY little ending lag after attacks and can easily play the best pressure in the game and gimp a ton of the characters as well. Pit's recovery can be gimped as well.

Can somebody tell me a weakness in Pit's arrows that doesn't apply to a lot of people's projectiles, because I sure can't think of one, and if there indeed isn't, I gotta agree with Grit from Advance Wars:

Pit has more ending lag on the arrows than several other projectiles. That and they're piss easy to dodge.

Meta Knight's attacks may be fast, but they're still close range.

No, they aren't close range. They're all mid range, and since he's so fast at mid range, he can play a damn good pressure game. Not just that but his sword is a disjointed hitbox so it can clash pretty well against other attacks without harming him.

Difficult to punish? Maybe, but certainly not impossible.

Unlike Pit who is extremely easy to punish. Especially at short range.

As for Pit, he is defensive in general. If you do airdodge, he'll just punish the attempt to exploit the blind spot. And his recovery is still very good WITHOUT the Up B (which by the way allows for further maneuverability, losing it to a single hit is no big deal when, oh, right, you can go under the stage), what with the 3 midair jumps or the glide. And he has decent weight, remember. It's actually a big deal in his case because that means he never hits the blast lines directly for a while unless he gets gimped. Again, he's defensive in general, any Pit worth their weight will see that from a mile away. Even if you do mind game him, you'd still have to avoid being shot at all, because recovering from the stun takes too long.

Uh, that's what every character does to punish air dodges... Wait then attacks... It's not like pit is the only one who can punish them. As I said, pit is easy to gimp as well.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Rei

[Juigi Kario]

Pit may have those arrows, but he also has close range. In fact, I think MK has more range on a lot of moves. MK can close distance fairly easily. Also, Pit moves in slow-mo compared to MK. MK's near-lagless moves can link smoothly into one another, forming a vicious attacking front.

Meta Knight closes distance at what cost? He can still be punished when he closes the distance and Pit still moves at a reasonable speed.

And Meta Knight's near-lagless moves are still close range. And still punishable.

That Tornado and his Shuttle Loop are what really make him broken. The Tornado can run through Pit's arrows, then punish Pit for the slight arrow lag.

Really? Last I checked, Tornado and Shuttle Loop could both be shielded off. If I used Pit against Meta Knight, I'd be more concerned about the drill attack if I tried using arrows. Even then, that can still be punished.

*sigh*

It makes perfect sense...

No it doesn't.

Wrong. Metaknight has great pressure games. His movement on ground is fast, and he can just tornado your shield safely all day until it breaks if he wants.

Except I'll punish him right after the FIRST tornado.

Causing you to do something. Not just that, but spaced tilts from metaknight are very hard to get by.

Oh, goody, he's walking or simply not moving. Can't use a quick attack on that.

His range is actually pretty damn good with Down-smash,

Yeah right. Besides which, if he's right next to me in a decent position, I'll just move away since he has other options to begin withs.

and his up-B has next to no landing lag after a slash, so you can't shieldgrab that either.

Bad cooldown. Me punish.

His approaches really can't be punished as easily as you think.

He has no projectiles. I'll just figure out whatever he can do and punish.

Uh, okay... The drill sucks for approaching anyway.

Maybe because of predictability. Other than that, no.

Dodge roll, shield dashing. End of story.

Punishable methods. At least against Fox's blaster you can charge at Fox.

If you get owned by pit's arrows, you're not thinking right.

Yeah right.

pit having no glaring weaknesses? Don't make me laugh. Lack of good killing moves is quite apparent.

So he doesn't have a forward smash, up smash, glide attack, or back air attack. Oh wait.

And if you're going to say attack power is a weakness of his, okay then, Grit's +1 range, which is more or less equal in the AW environment to Pit's projectile advantages in the Brawl environment, is perfectly balanced by the 80% firepower that direct fire units have. Bzzt. Wrong. If by chance you believe Pit's attack power is a suitable weakness for what he has got--and we can assume the 4 jumps and a glide with decent weight and speed is equivalent to Grit's indirect firepower boost--then you believe by extension that Grit's 80% firepower counteracts ALL of his advantages and he can be fought effectively on Bean Island.

He can be shield grabbed by a ton of the cast.

Against the neutral air?

He can be outspaced by several characters.

How? Only a FEW characters even have multiple midair jumps, and the two who aren't lightweights who will hit the blast lines most likely after only one or two needs to use midair jumps are heavyweights who are slow; one of them has only one extra midair jump and a glide, the other has bad individual ones. At worst for him, Pit shouldn't have a problem preventing somebody from outspacing him to any major degree.

He's pretty easy to punish after attacks.

He is not.

Unlike Pit, Metaknight has EXTREMELY little ending lag after attacks and can easily play the best pressure in the game and gimp a ton of the characters as well.

Meta Knight also still has short range attacks. And need I remind you that you need to get a person off the stage before you can try to gimp them?

Pit's recovery can be gimped as well.

Pit is going to let you hit him? Oh, you're talking about the Up B, which you shouldn't be abusing to no end. Pit shouldn't even need it frequently, and he can fly under the stage if he does.

Pit has more ending lag on the arrows than several other projectiles.

Stop farting BS out of your ***. His cooldown is decent. If it isn't, then Ness's PSI Magnet is HORRIBLE for its main intended purpose. Just tell me how Ness fails to defend himself from a sudden dash attack eliminating the free health from the arrows or the point of getting it, if not both, because it sure ain't a sign of a balanced game when you're saying that the PSI Magnet is only credible at all as part of an advanced technique.

That and they're piss easy to dodge.

Okay, your logic makes no sense anymore. You move right into Lucas's Up Smash, a heavily telegraphed attack, and yet you somehow dodge Pit's arrows. WTF?

No, they aren't close range. They're all mid range,

Close range is close range. And you want this "mid range", try Marth.

and since he's so fast at mid range, he can play a damn good pressure game.

Play. Defense. That is all.

Not just that but his sword is a disjointed hitbox so it can clash pretty well against other attacks without harming him.

Oh, he has a disjointed hitbox? So where is it? It sure isn't Snake's in any case.

Unlike Pit who is extremely easy to punish. Especially at short range.

Pit can still defend himself. Those 4 jumps? He can use them to maneuver.

Uh, that's what every character does to punish air dodges... Wait then attacks... It's not like pit is the only one who can punish them. As I said, pit is easy to gimp as well.

Pit has 3 midair jumps and a glide. He's not the least bit easy to gimp.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Juigi Kario

[Ike-Mike]

Oh, he has a disjointed hitbox? So where is it? It sure isn't Snake's in any case.

Which of Snake's moves have a disjointed hitbox other than his up tilt?

[Doom103]

Roll and shield pit's arrows

ohhhhh so hard.

Mk is meh

What Rei said basically

I say MK and Snake for God Teir since I see MK being banned Snake for god teir.

I have an answer for all of your BS counter examples I just felt bored halfway done typing. Look best players in the world say MK is broken, MK is broken. Dont be dumb there is a teir list. Go to smashboards and see how they chew you up for saying dumb things like you have

Edited December 2, 2008 by Doom_Dragon_103

[Rehab]

concerning MK overcentralization (I'm told that's not actually a word) blablablawrbla

The best way to beat outright Pit spam is to locate your nearest shoulder button

[Ike-Mike]

I say MK and Snake for God Teir since I see MK being banned Snake for god teir.

Snake has his counters though.

[dondon151]

And Meta Knight's near-lagless moves are still close range. And still punishable.

MID-range, and not very punishable, considering they're fast, disjointed, and mid-range.

Really? Last I checked, Tornado and Shuttle Loop could both be shielded off. If I used Pit against Meta Knight, I'd be more concerned about the drill attack if I tried using arrows. Even then, that can still be punished.

Last I checked, any of Pit's moves (and actually every move except a grab) can be shielded.

Except I'll punish him right after the FIRST tornado.

Punishing tornado is total ass. Either you get shieldpoked or MK retreats and lands before tornado lag ends.

So he doesn't have a forward smash, up smash, glide attack, or back air attack. Oh wait.

You seem to have missed the "good" part. Also, theorysmashing isn't similar at all to theoryAW, so don't even try.

Meta Knight also still has short range attacks. And need I remind you that you need to get a person off the stage before you can try to gimp them?

Getting people off the stage isn't much of a problem for most of the cast; edgeguarding is. Any horizontal knockback move can send a character off the stage, where MK claims aerial superiority thanks to multiple jumps and nearly lagless and disjointed aerials. Pit doesn't control the air like that.

Pit is going to let you hit him? Oh, you're talking about the Up B, which you shouldn't be abusing to no end. Pit shouldn't even need it frequently, and he can fly under the stage if he does.

Flying under the stage is not a viable recovery tactic, considering it makes it more likely that you'll be edgehogged, gimped, etc.

Stop farting BS out of your ***. His cooldown is decent. If it isn't, then Ness's PSI Magnet is HORRIBLE for its main intended purpose. Just tell me how Ness fails to defend himself from a sudden dash attack eliminating the free health from the arrows or the point of getting it, if not both, because it sure ain't a sign of a balanced game when you're saying that the PSI Magnet is only credible at all as part of an advanced technique.

Ness's PSI Magnet is a terrible move and always has been. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

Pit has 3 midair jumps and a glide. He's not the least bit easy to gimp.

Pit has an up B that doesn't have a hitbox, and if you're hit out of it, you can't jump or use up B again.

Look, we're not denying that Pit's arrows are good, but they're not broken by any means. Also, please stop using arguments that can be applied to all characters. "Play defensively" and "I can punish him," when used to support your argument, do not help you in any way.

Edited December 3, 2008 by dondon151

[Doom103]

Snake has his counters though.

I don't think Snake has any matchup's not in his favor other MK, I would have to look to see

[DeSu]

Meta Knight closes distance at what cost? He can still be punished when he closes the distance and Pit still moves at a reasonable speed.

No cost really.

And Meta Knight's near-lagless moves are still close range. And still punishable.

And if his attacks are punishable, Pit's arrow lag is the easiest thing to punish in the world.

Really? Last I checked, Tornado and Shuttle Loop could both be shielded off. If I used Pit against Meta Knight, I'd be more concerned about the drill attack if I tried using arrows. Even then, that can still be punished.

If you actually find the drill more dangerous than Tornado or Shuttle Loop, you've got a loooong way to go...

Except I'll punish him right after the FIRST tornado.

Laughable. Have you been fighting computer players? Tornado has great mobility, and can easily retreat near the end of the move. by the time you can "punish" him, he'll have started another move, shielded, or dodge.

Yeah right. Besides which, if he's right next to me in a decent position, I'll just move away since he has other options to begin withs.

First off, Dsmash has more range than any of Pit's smashes. And this is one of MKs best attacks. Better options? Think not. This attack is fast as hell, much faster than any of Pit's smashes. You'll just "move away", right? Well guess what. By the time you finish your roll dodge, MK is done with near non-existing lag and chasing you. And he's faster than you.

Bad cooldown. Me punish.

Bad cooldown? MK can chain UpB into ANYTHING instantly. Try punishing him and you're gonna eat another UpB or Dsmash for dinner

He has no projectiles. I'll just figure out whatever he can do and punish.

Lol, you throw around the word punish as if it's the solution to everything. Yeah, just because you have an idea of what's coming, you don't know exactly. Also, even if you know what's coming doesn't always mean you can stop it. BTW, if you say "yes you can" that just means you've defeated yourself. Because OBVIOUSLY Pit is going to shoot an arrow at you when you're far away so OBVIOUSLY it can be punished. lol

Punishable methods. At least against Fox's blaster you can charge at Fox.

Pit isn't nearly fast enough to shoot an arrow and then go attack someone who dodged. Unless your opponent is stupid. Or they are up close. And EVERYBODY knows Pit's best option against close range opponents is ARROW SPAM.

Yeah right.

You really aren't thinking. If you're having trouble with Pit's projectile game, you must pull your hair out over Toony's

So he doesn't have a forward smash, up smash, glide attack, or back air attack. Oh wait.

Don't make me laugh. Fsmash can kill, but it doesn't do so reliably. Multiple times I've escaped the second blow. Also, the range is poor. Usmash doesn't kill well AT ALL. Back air is good, but you either have to hit while an opponent is airborne or risk hitting them while they are on ground. And if you miss the ground one, you're favorite word pops up. PUNISHED!!!! Oh yeah! Glide attack! Because NOBODY can see that one coming from a mile away.

Against the neutral air?

One attack. Woopdy-do. Because obviously the only thing you're doing is Nair. Besides, that attack has, big suprise here, POOR RANGE. Anybody with a sword can easily go "lol punish". Basically anyone with a disjointed hitbox can just whack you out of it. And thats a lot of people.

How? Only a FEW characters even have multiple midair jumps, and the two who aren't lightweights who will hit the blast lines most likely after only one or two needs to use midair jumps are heavyweights who are slow; one of them has only one extra midair jump and a glide, the other has bad individual ones. At worst for him, Pit shouldn't have a problem preventing somebody from outspacing him to any major degree.

Outspacing has nothing to do with jumps. It's about spacing your attacks to mox efficiency. Hitting with the edge of Dsmash is obviously more beneficial to MK because it doesn't affect Knockback or damage AND it puts more space between you and your opponent, making sure you don't get jabbed or something( not that anybody could...). Lots of characters have disjointed hitboxes, most of which go further than Pit's puny daggers, thus making them "outspace" him.

He is not.

Great arguement. Your debate skillzr2pro.

Meta Knight also still has short range attacks. And need I remind you that you need to get a person off the stage before you can try to gimp them?

If MK has short range attacks, Pit has 0-range attacks. You need to study those hitboxes more. Also, MK can EASILY get somebody off the stage. Low percents + Mks high speed = easy juggling = over the edge = GIMP'D

Pit is going to let you hit him? Oh, you're talking about the Up B, which you shouldn't be abusing to no end. Pit shouldn't even need it frequently, and he can fly under the stage if he does.

If that's your logic, then do you LET the opponent get you off the stage? You LET them get your percentage higher than 0?

And flying under the stage is no where near a good idea unless you're on smashville.

Stop farting BS out of your ***. His cooldown is decent. If it isn't, then Ness's PSI Magnet is HORRIBLE for its main intended purpose. Just tell me how Ness fails to defend himself from a sudden dash attack eliminating the free health from the arrows or the point of getting it, if not both, because it sure ain't a sign of a balanced game when you're saying that the PSI Magnet is only credible at all as part of an advanced technique.

Decent cooldown is still slower than MKs near instant cooldown which you, btw, are claiming is easily punishable.

Okay, your logic makes no sense anymore. You move right into Lucas's Up Smash, a heavily telegraphed attack, and yet you somehow dodge Pit's arrows. WTF?

Lucas Usmash has a lingering hitbox, so if you try to airdodge it, there is a chance of getting hit. And Pit's arrows are annoying, but loleasy to dodge.

Close range is close range. And you want this "mid range", try Marth.

Marth has long range. Not mid range.

Play. Defense. That is all.

Cool. Defense. Riiiight. Because shields last forever in this game.

Oh, he has a disjointed hitbox? So where is it? It sure isn't Snake's in any case.

Sword = disjointed hitbox

Pit can still defend himself. Those 4 jumps? He can use them to maneuver.

Those 4 jumps are near worthless for your "maneuvering". He gets little height out of them AND he's fairly slow in the air.

Pit has 3 midair jumps and a glide. He's not the least bit easy to gimp.

Gimping Pit is very easy, especially if you have a projectile.

Faiya's analyze.

"You need to play more people online. Go to Allisbrawl or Smashboards, fight some of the high level players there. Learn."

[Rei]

I don't think Snake has any matchup's not in his favor other MK, I would have to look to see

I can't understand what you're saying, rephrase it please.

[Doom103]

I can't understand what you're saying, rephrase it please.

I think all of Snakes matchups are in his advantage other then MK

[Rei]

I think all of Snakes matchups are in his advantage other then MK

Dedede RAPES snake. Falco RAPES snake. Kirby does pretty decent. Donkey Kong RAPES and gimps snake pretty easily. ROB does good against snake. Metaknight is about a 5-5 to 6-4 matchup for snake. Snake is nowhere near as broken as metaknight.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Rei

[Rehab]

It took me forever to actually stop myself from cooking grenades against rob.

I think Snake's grenades are better than I've given them credit for, and I think Snake can turn a bad match in his favor without too much difficulty (and a billion grenades) with the right counterpick, but Donkey Kong is just hard.

[Rei]

It took me forever to actually stop myself from cooking grenades against rob.

I think Snake's grenades are better than I've given them credit for, and I think Snake can turn a bad match in his favor without too much difficulty (and a billion grenades) with the right counterpick, but Donkey Kong is just hard.

I think Dedede and Donkey Kong are Snake's biggest counters (Watch Seibrek and DK Smash just rape them), the other ones I mentioned take advantage of his recovery and limited abilities off stage. Falco just pretty much stops Snake from using grenades as well as a chaingrab against him. Kirby has his hammer which can be used pretty well to punish snake's recovery and has an early chaingrab combo against him.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Rei

[Rehab]

Yeah, I watched one of Chillindude and ChuDat's sets. The right Kirby gets Snake in the air and strings Snake to hell percents, but Snake has the obvious killing/camping/most of the time range advantage, so whoever slips up first is screwed.

DK pretty much outpowers and mostly outranges Snake and is better in the air (offstage nonsense), and he's like one of almost nobody Snake has to work for a kill against when playing. It's like cheating lol, wario time or something.

Dedede, only way I can think to stop that with Snake is massive platform camp. And like a billion grenades dropped everywhere whether you platform camp or not, some form of camp is like a given. Everybody I've put enough time into to be comfortable with sucks against DeDeDe :(

Falco though. Screw Falco. I got nothing short of ledgecamp, but I think Snake sucks pretty hard at ledgecamp so screw it. DK time or something.

[Doom103]

Dedede RAPES snake. Falco RAPES snake. Kirby does pretty decent. Donkey Kong RAPES and gimps snake pretty easily. ROB does good against snake. Metaknight is about a 5-5 to 6-4 matchup for snake. Snake is nowhere near as broken as metaknight.

your right

hmmm I never knew

[Krevin]

Dedede RAPES snake. Falco RAPES snake. Kirby does pretty decent. Donkey Kong RAPES and gimps snake pretty easily. ROB does good against snake. Metaknight is about a 5-5 to 6-4 matchup for snake. Snake is nowhere near as broken as metaknight.

Match-ups are based /9, not /10.

Snake vs Falco is like a 5.5 - 3.5 matchup IIRC, Kirby is only good against Snake because he gets an epic beard when he copy's Snake's grenade. Dedede is way too good against Snake, though. Snake's only hope is camping on the top platform of Battlefield and mindgaming his way in to landing a few attacks, then stalling like crazy.

[Rehab]

I haven't seen a matchup based off of 9 yet

kirby is short lol

[Krevin]

Really? Because most Match-up Charts are based off 9.

And Chudat's Kirby is a lot better than Chillin's Snake.

[DeSu]

That kirby is beast...