Growth Method Explained

[Azz]

So our friend from Nintendo World Report has shared what the Growth Method we've seen is and how it works.

As expected, there is random and fixed growths. Random is default on Normal and Hard, with fixed being unlocked after being them. On Maddening however, fixed is the default (much like how in Fates Lunatic, that has fixed growths) and you have to beat Maddening to unlock random mode.

So what are your thoughts on this? Personally I'm a fan. It will certainly make Maddening interesting, and hopefully more balanced than it was in Three Houses.

[Hiroki]

5 minutes ago, Azz said:

So our friend from Nintendo World Report has shared what the Growth Method we've seen is and how it works.

As expected, there is random and fixed growths. Random is default on Normal and Hard, with fixed being unlocked after being them. On Maddening however, fixed is the default (much like how in Fates Lunatic, that has fixed growths) and you have to beat Maddening to unlock random mode.

I may be a bit dumb, but I'm not sure to fully get what tat means. Does it mean that in maddening difficulty, all level up will always be with the same stats up? Like every level up your unit get +1 in determined stat? All occurrence of the same unit around every player will have the same stats at given level? Each level is carefully programmed in advance by devs?

[Azz]

4 minutes ago, Hiroki said:

I may be a bit dumb, but I'm not sure to fully get what tat means. Does it mean that in maddening difficulty, all level up will always be with the same stats up? Like every level up your unit get +1 in determined stat? All occurrence of the same unit around every player will have the same stats at given level? Each level is carefully programmed in advance by devs?

So growths will still be random to an extent. As in, two playthroughs wont be the exact same. In Fates/Lunatic how it worked is that upon recruitment, growths were set and that's what you got for the playthrough and normally your unit would have around what would be their expected averages. So you could reset before you finish a unit's recruitment map and get different growths but anything after is still random technically.

We'll probably have to wait until we do more datamining to see how it will work exactly but that's kinda the gist of things

[FashionEmblem]

Based on the wording in the screenshot, I think fixed growths may mean average growths instead. The description emphasizes that growths will be "assigned based strictly on the unit and class." That reads like average stats to me: this unit in this class will always/strictly gain a stat xx% of the time (alternatively, in 10 levels in this class, this unit will gain xx/10 points in their stat). There's likely some noise due to rounding, but in general I would expect a unit to hover around their average stat.

By contrast, in Fates lunatic my understanding is that the RNG seed of stat growths is fixed. The stats are still random (pseudorandom, more specifically), but instead of rolling a fresh set of numbers each level, the sequence of dice rolls are predetermined upon recruiting the character. That means that a character may still end up stats blessed or screwed, but the outcome is decided on recruitment. The consequence is that you can't save scum to potentially get better growths. When you have variable class growths, however, although the stat rolls are fixed, the stat growths can still be manipulated at the edges. For example, assume a unit in a class has a 40% growth in a stat and on level up they roll a 45, gaining no stat. However, upon reclass they can go up to 50 growth in the stat and will now gain the point. Since you have already gotten the stat growth, even if you reclass back to the original class after leveling up, you keep the stat.

For Engage though, I'm not sure how much it matters since infinite reclassing resetting levels means there is no level cap in the game. The more levels your characters can gain, the more the average of their stat growths should converge to their growth rate. The ability to reclass to a base class may even be a way to quickly gain a bunch of levels, depending on how internal level is used to determine exp gain (Vander certainly seems to have an exp penalty from being a prepromoted Paladin in footage of chapter 1). Could be that grinding/levels are more scarce in maddening, but even then fixed growths doesn't sound like a penalty unless you were willing to save scum for better stats. If anything, the creation of a floor on stats by guaranteeing the average sounds like a boon to me for a higher difficulty.

Edited January 18, 2023 by FashionEmblem

[link16hit]

Finally "Fixed Mode" is back! Not like in Fates, when my  Zero (Niles) sucks in Lunatic (terrible STR). You cannot be screwed by RNG.

[CompteSecours]

Quote

fixed is the default (much like how in Fates Lunatic, that has fixed growths)

Mmhh not really.

Lunatic Fates is still random mode, but decided at the beginning. If you play on 2 different files, the 2 same character will have different stats.

In fixed mode, if 100 players use Ivy in Malig Knight lvl 15, all the 100 Ivys will have the same stats.

[Little_Rudo]

Hmmm... I'd love to give fixed mode a shot (if for no other reason than curiosity at how each character is "supposed" to turn out). I wonder if you start on Maddening and go down to Hard, it'll keep the fixed growths on a first playthrough.

[DaveCozy]

So "Build" is the stat in this game that affects Attack Speed, kinda like Con in previous games. If it's 1:1 as leaks have noted, then it's going to be pretty important to increase before settling on an advanced class so that units can use the heavier and stronger weapons without receiving a significant bump to your attack speed.

Fixed growths obviously can complicate this though. Reason number 1 being that build growth is low overall and relying on lucky level ups just won't cut it. Reason number 2 is that some units simply have 0% growth for build to start, due to their combinations of starting class and growths.

What can be done? Well, just like how it worked in Echoes and 3H (and prior games probably), you could reclass to bump up base minimums. Not just Build growth, also your base Build stat.

From what I'm noting in leaks, these are the best classes to reclass to in order to bump up the stat:

• General - 10 base build
• Berserker - 9 base build

Early game notable ones:

• Any Armor - 7 base build
• Axe Fighter - 7 base build

As long as you reclass to it, you get the base Build minimum, and it'll carry over to whatever other class you want later. That base minimum will be quite significant too, as leaks have also noted some units have very low base build and very low growth (e.g. like Celine at 4 build and 5% growth, and a lot of stronger tomes are heavier than that). You can switch back to your preferred class afterwards. Thankfully, Engage lets you go from Advanced to Advanced class at any level as long as weapon proficiencies are met; not like Awakening which forced you to be at level 10 Advanced to reclass to another Advanced class.

I would personally say it'd be better to reclass first, and then after use any permanent stat boosters to increase build. That way it can more easily and realistically reach the classes Build cap.

EDIT: all this is an example as well and based on leaked info, not necessarily fully confirmed info. It might be possible that high enough speed stats can make the AS penalty moot too, pending expected enemy stats (if I have to guess, it'll be more important for defense team building where you want challengers to struggle as much as possible 😉 ). I'm merely using examples to explain how base minimums can be altered via reclassing, based on how they work in previous games.

Edited January 18, 2023 by DaveCozy

[CompteSecours]

Quote

As long as you reclass to it, you get the base Build minimum, and it'll carry over to whatever other class you want later.

I'm not sure about that. It was possible in TH but not in Fates.

Has someone tried it ?

[DaveCozy]

54 minutes ago, CompteSecours said:

I'm not sure about that. It was possible in TH but not in Fates.

Has someone tried it ?

Hmm, I was assuming that it'd work based off 3H/Echoes method. Truthfully I forgot whether it worked this way in Fates and prior games, so you have a point, it might not even work with base stats transferred either.

I'll dig around some more.

[ciphertul]

5 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Hmm, I was assuming that it'd work based off 3H/Echoes method. Truthfully I forgot whether it worked this way in Fates and prior games, so you have a point, it might not even work with base stats transferred either.

I'll dig around some more.

On the Fire Emblem for all video, when Alcryst is reclassing becoming an archer lowers his build so it's probably tied to class and not kept if reclass.

[Nio]

7 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

EDIT: all this is an example as well and based on leaked info, not necessarily fully confirmed info. It might be possible that high enough speed stats can make the AS penalty moot too, pending expected enemy stats (if I have to guess, it'll be more important for defense team building where you want challengers to struggle as much as possible 😉 ). I'm merely using examples to explain how base minimums can be altered via reclassing, based on how they work in previous games.

 

Im playing the game i just tried this with Timera, going from her promoted class to General (11 build), then back to her promotion and nope, she got her original Build. That sucks honestly.

[FashionEmblem]

If you are worried about low attack speed, wouldn't it be a better approach to focus on maximizing speed than build?

[DaveCozy]

3 hours ago, Nio said:

 

Im playing the game i just tried this with Timera, going from her promoted class to General (11 build), then back to her promotion and nope, she got her original Build. That sucks honestly.

oh man, that does suck. Thanks for confirming.

2 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

If you are worried about low attack speed, wouldn't it be a better approach to focus on maximizing speed than build?

For the single player game, maybe. It depends on enemy stats and what will be "good enough" to break certain speed tiers to double enemies.

If making a defense outrealm team, you'd probably want to maximize both eventually, since both have caps and you wouldn't want to lose speed anywhere to give other players the most challenge. Not unless you're putting a defensive oriented stack armored unit-type.

I'm guessing here too.

Edited January 19, 2023 by DaveCozy

[CompteSecours]

I think it's nice reclassing doesn't keep stats.

It was total bullshit in Three Houses. "Everyone, go Wyvern for those juicy stats !! Then go back to your original class".

Why would an archer have the same build as a knight ?

[DaveCozy]

5 hours ago, CompteSecours said:

I think it's nice reclassing doesn't keep stats.

It was total bullshit in Three Houses. "Everyone, go Wyvern for those juicy stats !! Then go back to your original class".

Why would an archer have the same build as a knight ?

Fair enough sentiment.

But to be clear, you only kept the base stats in 3H. So a Fortress Knight would have base 17 defense for e.g., quite higher than any other class. What you didn't keep though was the class bonus stats, which in the previous e.g. would be +10 defense from Fortress Knight for a total of 27 defense minimum.

So in other words, the only thing you kept if you reclassed out of Fortress Knight in 3H was 17 defense, not the additional +10, which I thought was okay and balanced honestly. I was assuming that it would have worked that way with 10 build in Engage, but it doesn't.

But again, fair enough point of view. I can see it that way too.

Edited January 19, 2023 by DaveCozy

[Shadow Mir]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:43 PM, link16hit said:

Finally "Fixed Mode" is back! Not like in Fates, when my  Zero (Niles) sucks in Lunatic (terrible STR). You cannot be screwed by RNG.

Having a bad Niles is something I always had to deal with, myself. Of course, I couldn't tolerate his poor stats outside of speed and resistance, so I always end up dropping him in favor of his daughter Nina, who does everything he can and can do it better. Well, except capture, but idgaf about that.