Lapis in comparison to Chloe and Kagetsu. Why I think Lapis is better or at least just as good.

[Skyteppelin]

So iv been playing a lot of FE engage on maddening not just beating the game but doing a lot of testing at different points in the game. Mainly the early game but some mid and end game as well and I just really want to talk about my thoughts  about these 3 units and hear other peoples cause Iv noticed tons of variants in what people think. 

Which does bring me to my biggest disclaimer for this game but especially maddening. Engage is a investment game, there are so many things that need to be given to units to make them really reach there full potential. Whether those things be forges/engravings, certain weapons, stat boosters, promotions or reclasses, and most importantly which emblem rings they are using.  Even for the best units in the game these things are super important because often what lets them reach those best performances is having access to a variety of the things listed above. For example things like Kagestu Wyv rider are vary strong but needs things like Lyn ring and an avoid engraving to really become a EP monster. So because of that you just naturally won't see how good Lyn could make other units cause it can only be on one person. Which of course isn't to say that other units would necessarily be better then Kagetsu with Lyn if they got Lyn instead. More to say that I think its easy for our view on characters to be skewed because we gave the resources they would need to be amazing to other units. 

Last thing, I am one person please understand that I can't catch or understand literally everything about the game. I will miss somethings and not fully understand other things.

 

Lapis: This is probably by far my most controversial opinion if I went by other peoples tier list cause most people put Lapis in the bottom tier as one of the worst units. But after tons of testing and playing the game I can't say I disagree more. It will be hard to talk about Lapis with out talking about Kagetsu and Chloe as they are who she so often gets compared to and is called redundant in comparison to. While I understand where this sentiment comes from and don't really agree with it on the fact that its like pitfall 101 to not use some units just cause they are like other units. I personally believe the whole redundancy argument actually works in Lapis favor and not the other weigh around.  

Lapis, Chloe, and Kagetsu are basically the same unit in a lot of ways. Similar stat lines and allocations that vary with there join times, similar growths across the board with some minor variations here and there. As well as them generally wanting to become the same classes (Wyv, Griffen, Swordmaster. Depending on what part of the game you are in) which also means they really want the same emblems. 

So why of all units do I think Lapis is the best of 3? Why do I think she beats out the early game flier and that stat stick monster. Because these strengths imo are just perceived strengths for those units and not actually relevant strengths in the context of the game. By nature of my example I will be talking a lot about Chloe and Kagestu (Mainly Chloe) So there sections will mainly be here. To preface they are all still high tier units and effectively fill the same niche with some minor differences, and I will not be delving into stat speared and how they compare when in equal levels.  Cause quite frankly I don't think this is at all helpful and completely ignores in game context and other factors that make units good in this game. In addition to assuming that they will always be going along that line and that your other units basically just don't exists. Its not that they aren't helpful just that they only tell a very small story and don't let us a view them on more practical level. 

So to begin and id like to clear up somethings that are weird in this game when it comes to talking about things about units and that's mainly how saying units join time is X doesn't really tell the whole story of what actually starts making that unit relevant. The easiest example is join time with kagetsu, while he does join in chapter 11 its not till basically the end of the chapter at best assuming your playing as fast as you realistically can he will be able to help for 2 turns before the chapter is over. So in a lot of ways he really joins in chapter 12 but this isn't that big a difference but is something that I think to be important.  

Chloe Joins in Chapter 4 she is fine in her join chapter she will kill 2 mages and maybe 1 or 2 more units here and there if you want to give her kills over other characters but otherwise she isn't helping clear the map any faster cause she can't do anything to the boss. What's important to keep in mind (and this goes for Lapis and Kagestu as well) Is that while we say she joins on Chapter 4 that doesn't actually mean she gets access to what we have. We can not give her a emblem to shore up her performance on this chapter, which is part of what I mean by saying she joins on chapter 4 to be misleading because she has to join in her weakest state. So next we have our first paralog, which is sort of weird to think about (same for the second one after chapter 6) because on one hand we can do it now to get Jean and the Energy drop but have a harder time, or we can move forward to chapter 5/6/7 etc... to get things to make it easier and clear it faster. But for the sake of the energy drop will do this chapter. Chloe is a nice assist on this chapter she can fly over the barriers to get to some enemy's faster (although she needs to be careful about the boss cause if she can't one shot him she dies) and while I haven't tested every possibility out there she can't one shot the boss so she will need some help which means she isn't really speeding up this chapter for us in any meaningful way. But cool we got our energy drop and Jean Xd so we can move on. 

So obviously we ask now who do we give this energy drop to, who is going to help us clear the maps coming up in the best way we can. Now while personally I think its better to just save this drop for Lapis cause I don't think it makes that big of a difference before we have a unit that can safely double. Or how Lapis is going to be ahead of Chloe in terms of strength already so we might as well give it to her cause there spd differences don't matter cause both can double everything you would want them to. But for the sake of argument lets use this now to get the most bang for are buck now cause now is what we care about. So we give this to Chloe right? Personally I think not, which of course we ask why cause Chloe has the highest SPD right so why wouldn't we want her to have it. Mainly cause this high SPD doesn't actually do all that much for us at this moment. Chloe can't double sword enemy's or lance enemy's at this time and she already has low enough str where getting a drop isn't going to make her hurt armor knights suddenly.  Although most importantly she can not take a hit to save her life literally.  So she isn't exactly hitting things back hard ether (Not to mention if she runs into a archer she just dies of which there are quite a few on this chapter). So in this instance its better to give are energy drop to Alear or Louis cause they will not only help us clear this chapter faster (Louis being able to fight on EP or Alear having the strongest lodstar rush). In addition to things like us wanting Alear to promo as early as we can so giving them an easier ways to gain EXP is great.  

So for this chapter it will benefit us more for Alear or Louis to get the extra damage so they will make more use of it. So what about are next chapter, chapter 6? we have access to forges now does that make a difference? Well once again we have the same problem, Chloe can't really EP cause she takes to much damage and there are to many archers around. In addition the boss is once again a tanky axe fighter who needs a lot more str then Chloe with a energy drop to do damage to (Celine is really going to be the one doing damage to this boss). So once again Louis or Alear would be the better choices ( not to mention that Alear has the super cheap and powerful forge for there prf wep). Also for both these chapters being a flier basically doesn't help in any meaningful way aside from crossing a gap in chapter 6 to get to alear and yunaka to help them I guess but they don't really need that help.  

So now we spilt off into our chapter spilt ether paralog 2 or chapter 7. The funny thing about this spilt is doing one will make the other easier as they both will give us a master seal. I personally prefer doing chapter 7 first cause not only do we get a master seal but we also get 3 great units to help us with paralog 2. Of course if you want to train Anna then go ahead and do that first. But personally I really do favor doing chapter 7 first cause we just get so much more for doing it first and makes paralog 2 so much easier and nothing says we have to do it right away. 

So now we have reached Lapis chapter, so at this point Chloe has ether been fed everything to be a slightly better help in chapter 5 and 6 while Alear or Louis would have been more impactful. But forget it for sake of argument lets say you just gave everything to Chloe cause you just really value her being a flier how do her stats compare to Lapis? (for extra context you basically need to feed Chloe every kill you can to let her reach level 10 by the time we reach chapter 7 as well as give her all your arena uses). Well now she is level 10 and equal to lapis in stats! We put in all this effort to a unit that is not even are best choice to make better at her points in the game only for her to be on par or slightly better then Lapis. Does that really warrant such a huge tier difference? Not even close In fact I think you can now argue the other way why should I raise Chloe and give her tons of favoritism when she isn't extra helpful in the chapters she is around and only to become equal to lapis (slightly more SPD for Chloe which doesn't matter for anything accept doubling Zelkov in chapter 8 ).

In chapter 7 there performances isn't all that different ether. Chloe can fight the pegs a turn before other people and Lapis can fight the axe users better (and also doesn't get murdered by archers or Rosado) so this is not really any big difference. So now from this point on there is only one more meaningful difference between them which is Chloe being a flier for chapter 8. As after chapter 8 we unlock second seals so Lapis can become a flier, and Chloe having one more build I guess but this doesn't matter cause again it doesn't change how they preform when it comes to doubling as 21 spd is the key (spd of sword pegs and swordmen) which they both break even with Lapis getting weighed down. 

So all this is why I think Lapis is just not inferior to Chloe cause even you do give everything you possible can to Chloe the difference in them is slightly in Chloe's favor at best. Or you can feed your other units who are more helpful in the chapters you are doing then get a level 10 Chloe for free. I understand levin sword is a later difference between the 2. But Levin sword really doesn't help them kill anything they wouldn't be able to otherwise which would be armor knights which they still won't really kill and sacrifice there ability to double swordmasters and other things that are fast. (not to mention levin sword griffin knights do no damage to like anything that doesn't have zero res) Not to mention that being able to kill armor knights isn't exactly something you need to do cause you have lots of things that can do that. 

So that leaves it for Chloe so now we move on to kagetsu and this will be much shorter then Chloe so don't worry. Everything i'm about to say is just not to compare kagetsu to Lapis but will also apply to Kagetsu vs Chloe. Quite frankly the only difference between them is well a 5 str growth difference and 2 more strength on kagetsu (although you do get 2 energy drops before chapter 11 so like that difference can be zero with no effort that only helps you). As well as 3 extra con which is admittedly a decent difference and the one thing where aside from giving Lapis or Chloe build 3 from leif before Kagetsu has a nice lag over them in. I personally do favor giving them build 3 from leif cause it just breaks there combat at that point in the game and will carry them through the rest of it. Although because we want to turn all of them into a wyv at this point with lyn that weight doesn't mean anything for how they double cause lyn. 

With that being said, now the biggest difference is my fav and its the fact that Lapis and Chloe can become wyv riders 3(4 technically from his join time) chapters before Kagetsu can. Kagetsu needs Ike while Lapis and Chloe could use Leif (or whoever). Cause again you only get ike on chapter 14 but you can't actually give Kagetsu anything from Ike until after the chapter so really he can't become it until chapter 15. At which point he has now caught back up to Lapis and Chloe and they are just basically the same unit for the rest of the game. 

So all this being said Lapis is just no investment Chloe and a wyv before Kagetsu. In addition to being your best EP from the chapter after she joins to just like... the rest of the game. So even after all this you still want to go with Chloe or Kagetsu as better that's fine. But what I hope people take away is that the difference is not what people say it is, Lapis is just as good if not better then the other two. Again I think what leads to this is people are ether already using Chloe and just want to keep using her, or Just dropped both for kagetsu cause they liked him or say his extra str. when in reality she can very literally be just as good as both of them. 

Thank you for reading and again one more time, I'm just one person I know people won't agree with this 100% and that's fine and want discussion but I ask that you be respectful to me and anyone else who wants to say something. 

[SnowFire]

Let's ignore class-changing for a moment.  Let's analyze the three characters you mention, as well as one other: Celine, who will get staves upon promotion in a game where staves are very good.  (So the first two are Swordmasters, Chloe is Griffin Knight, Celine is Vidame.)  This is taken at level 20/20 for Lapis / Chloe / Celine, and */20/5 for Kagetsu (his internal level is 15 implying a 16/1 promotion, and getting 4 extra levels after Second Sealing back to the start for the prepromos with internal level 15 matches my own experience with endgame level).

• Lapis: 46 HP, 22 Str, 9 Mag, 29 Dex, 39 Spd, 19 Def, 19 Res, 21 Lck, 7 Bld, 5 Move
• Kagetsu: 51 HP, 26 Str, 8 Mag, 37 Dex, 38 Spd, 23 Def, 19 Res, 30 Lck, 11 Bld, 5 Move
• Chloé: 52 HP, 22 Str, 20 Mag, 33 Dex, 38 Spd, 17 Def, 22 Res, 25 Lck, 8 Bld, 6 Move
• Céline: 41 HP, 23 Str, 23 Mag, 22 Dex, 28 Spd, 20 Def, 25 Res, 34 Lck, 7 Bld, 5 Move

Well, the speedsters all look pretty similar!  Except...  not really. Note that Kagetsu has +4 Strength on Lapis/Chloe and +3 on Celine.  With high enemy defense and this crew doubling a lot, this extra strength is important.  Round 1 goes to him.

How about speed?  Note Lapis & Chloe's spindly arms: their build score is quite bad.  Kagetsu can wield a 10 weight Silver Sword +3 no problem, but it's going to weigh down the other three.  And it gets even worse if you didn't forge it all the way to +3, now it's 11 weight, still heftable by Kagetsu with no penalty but worse for the rest.  Overkill speed is good in Engage because even if you're already doubling, it helps your Avoid score for building a dodgetank, so this is relevant!  Chloe probably went for a Lance Griffin Knight, too,  and Silver Lance +3 is 12 weight.  So...  the ladies need to pick between maximizing their speed or their damage.  Given how high enemy defenses get, they probably need to pick damage unless they're equipped with Eirika, but lots of units want Eirika.  So...  Kagetsu is also probably the fastest of this crew.  Round 2 in his favor.

How about bulk?  Kagetsu & Chloe tie on HP, but are notably better than Lapis & Celine.  Kagetsu has the best defense of this set and equivalent Resistance to Lapis, although Celine is a bit better here at magic tanking (albeit compromised by much worse HP).  He also has way more Luck than Lapis or Chloe, making him better at dodgetanking, although Celine is the best of this set (but her speed is way worse, compromising a dodgetank Celine plan without Lyn or something).  Round 3 in his favor.

How about utility?  Here we finally have something Kagetsu loses at.  Chloe has a decent Magic score which as a Griffin Knight will set up some Flame Lance & Staff plays, although Flame Lance is also annoyingly heavy and thus will tank her dodgetanking some.  Celine has a B Tome & Staff rank and a better passive as a Vidame.  So while Kagetsu brings up the caboose here as a range-1 backup unit with awful Magic making Levin Sword pointless, Lapis isn't any better.  Both probably should consider class-changing, even if it's just to something like Hero so that they have range-2 backup attacks off Javelins as some sort of imitation Goldmary since Levin Sword is just so terrible in their hands. Round 4 to Chloe & Celine.

How about sick critical animations?  Okay, not a major power-level concern, but Kagetsu has way more Dex then the others, so prepare to face Japanese steel.  Round 5 to Kagetsu.

Anyway, the moral is that while there are some legit reasons to favor Chloe or Celine over Kagetsu related to utility, Lapis is sadly kind of dominated at everything by Kagetsu other than join time.  And if join time is really important to you, then you can start stuffing stat boosters down Celine & Chloe's throat a bit earlier, so she still isn't that great.  None of this says Lapis is unusable!  She's certainly far more viable than various GBA & Tellius scrubs.  She still joins fairly early and a few stat boosters will do wonders.  But...  she is sadly kinda Just A Little Worse at everything than the others.  If you're okay with a low-strength sword unit, Celine will offer far more utility and range; if you want a speedster dodgetank, Kagetsu is functionally faster thanks to the better build score.

Edited February 22, 2023 by SnowFire

[Skyteppelin]

7 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

Let's ignore class-changing for a moment.  Let's analyze the three characters you mention, as well as one other: Celine, who will get staves upon promotion in a game where staves are very good.  (So the first two are Swordmasters, Chloe is Griffin Knight, Celine is Vidame.)  This is taken at level 20/20 for Lapis / Chloe / Celine, and */20/5 for Kagetsu (his internal level is 15 implying a 16/1 promotion, and getting 4 extra levels after Second Sealing back to the start for the prepromos with internal level 15 matches my own experience with endgame level).

• Lapis: 46 HP, 22 Str, 9 Mag, 29 Dex, 39 Spd, 19 Def, 19 Res, 21 Lck, 7 Bld, 5 Move
• Kagetsu: 51 HP, 26 Str, 8 Mag, 37 Dex, 38 Spd, 23 Def, 19 Res, 30 Lck, 11 Bld, 5 Move
• Chloé: 52 HP, 22 Str, 20 Mag, 33 Dex, 38 Spd, 17 Def, 22 Res, 25 Lck, 8 Bld, 6 Move
• Céline: 41 HP, 23 Str, 23 Mag, 22 Dex, 28 Spd, 20 Def, 25 Res, 34 Lck, 7 Bld, 5 Move

Well, the speedsters all look pretty similar!  Except...  not really. Note that Kagetsu has +4 Str on Lapis/Chloe and +3 on Celine.  With high enemy defense, this bonus is relevant.  Round 1 goes to him.

How about speed?  Note Lapis & Chloe's spindly arms: their build score is quite bad.  Kagetsu can wield a 10 weight Silver Sword +3 no problem, but it's going to weigh down the other three.  And it gets even worse if you didn't forget it all the way to +3, now it's 11 weight.  Overkill speed is good in Engage because even if you're already doubling, it helps your Avoid score for building a dodgetank, so this is relevant!  Chloe probably went for a Lance Griffin Knight, too,  and Silver Lance +3 is 12 weight.  So...  the ladies need to pick between maximizing their speed or their damage.  Given how high enemy defenses get, they probably need to pick damage unless they're equipped with Eirika, but lots of units want Eirika.  So...  Kagetsu is also probably the fastest of this crew.  Round 2 in his favor.

How about bulk?  Kagetsu & Chloe tie on HP, but are notably better than Lapis & Celine.  Kagetsu has the best defense of this set and equivalent Resistance to Lapis, although Celine is a bit better here at magic tanking (albeit compromised by much worse HP).  He also has way more Luck than Lapis or Chloe, making him better at dodgetanking, although Celine is the best of this set (but her speed is way worse, compromising a dodgetank Celine plan without Lyn or something).  Round 3 in his favor.

How about utility?  Here we finally have something Kagetsu loses at.  Chloe has a decent Magic score which as a Griffin Knight will set up some Flame Lance & Staff plays, although Flame Lance is also annoyingly heavy and thus will tank her dodgetanking some.  Celine has a B Tome & Staff rank and a better passive as a Vidame.  So while Kagetsu brings up the caboose here as a range-1 backup unit with awful Magic making Levin Sword pointless, Lapis isn't any better.  Both probably should consider class-changing, even if it's just to something like Hero so that they have range-2 backup attacks off Javelins as some sort of imitation Goldmary since Levin Sword is just so terrible in their hands. Round 4 to Chloe & Celine.

How about sick critical animations?  Okay, not a major power-level concern, but Kagetsu has way more Dex then the others, so prepare to face Japanese steel.  Round 5 to Kagetsu.

Anyway, the moral is that while there are some legit reasons to favor Chloe or Celine over Kagetsu related to utility, Lapis is sadly kind of dominated at everything by Kagetsu other than join time.  And if join time is really important to you, then you can start stuffing stat boosters down Celine & Chloe's throat a bit earlier, so she still isn't that great.  None of this says Lapis is unusable!  She's certainly far more viable than various GBA & Tellius scrubs.  She still joins fairly early and a few stat boosters will do wonders.  But...  she is sadly kinda Just A Little Worse at everything than the others.  If you're okay with a low-strength sword unit, Celine will offer far more utility and range; if you want a speedster dodgetank, Kagetsu is functionally faster thanks to the better build score.

Kind of like I said in my post I understand all this but I think it really ignores the context of the game. Lapis has lower str then kagetsu? She is still one rounding everything at the point he joins and will keep one rounding later on (she will need crts at a certain point but so well kagestu a bit later) It really doesn't become relevant until the very end of the game which has like 100x ways to be fixed, roy, sword power, marth, fire emblem if you want to go that, route etc etc...  Even with being weighed down by swords Lapis can still double high tier fast enemy's even in end game. I concede that she will have slightly worse avoid because of this although again (ignoring fixing it with leif) This doesn't matter for most of the game cause she is ahead of the spd curve epsically with lyn. It will only start rearing its head in the very end game and really just the final map cause after we get micach back we can just warp skip everything.    

on a pure numbers game they seem better but in the context of actually playing the game the differences basically don't. Unless my game has like fake maddening mode and my Lapis is broken. Like iv played the GBA games and Tellius games a ton and Lapis is not the same as them, she is much closer to a Rutger (yes I know people will smite me for this) then she is a Fi. I can understand why someone would value kagestu more but for the difference between them for most people to be one is god tier best unit in the game and the other is considered a fine unit that can do alright is like????? 

[SnowFire]

I plan to attempt to use Lapis in my next playthrough, so we'll see.  It's certainly possible if you believe that speedsters are the best units in the game that "worse Kagetsu" is still a great unit; there's some famous examples like Makalov being the worst FE9 Paladin in a game where Paladin is extremely busted and thus he's actually good anyway.  That said, you seem to have hinted that you fed two energy drops to her in your first post, and obligatory point that a lot of characters get better if you feed them two energy drops, including Kagetsu himself.

Edited February 22, 2023 by SnowFire

[Skyteppelin]

7 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

I plan to attempt to use Lapis in my next playthrough, so we'll see.  It's certainly possible if you believe that speedsters are the best units in the game that "worse Kagetsu" is still a great unit; there's some famous examples like Makalov being the worst FE9 Paladin in a game where Paladin is extremely busted and thus he's actually good anyway.  That said, you seem to have hinted that you fed two energy drops to her in your first post, and obligatory point that a lot of characters get better if you feed them two energy drops, including Kagetsu himself.

Oh ill have to change that, In my first run I did cause I just trying to beat the game. Second run I didn't give her any stat boosters and kept her forges to  minimum and she still preformed as my best unit. My example was more that you couold and it would juat make her even better for those points in the game. 

I do hope you enjoy using her on your next run.  

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

With that being said, now the biggest difference is my fav and its the fact that Lapis and Chloe can become wyv riders 3(4 technically from his join time) chapters before Kagetsu can. Kagetsu needs Ike while Lapis and Chloe could use Leif (or whoever). Cause again you only get ike on chapter 14 but you can't actually give Kagetsu anything from Ike until after the chapter so really he can't become it until chapter 15. At which point he has now caught back up to Lapis and Chloe and they are just basically the same unit for the rest of the game.

Why does Kagetsu need Ike? His stats are better across the board and should therefore be able to fit in any role better than those two can.

Quote

Which does bring me to my biggest disclaimer for this game but especially maddening. Engage is a investment game, there are so many things that need to be given to units to make them really reach there full potential. Whether those things be forges/engravings, certain weapons, stat boosters, promotions or reclasses, and most importantly which emblem rings they are using.

I agree with you; this is incredibly important. If you don't take this into account it will often mask a character's weaknesses, and I think that this is what is happening when you evaluate Lapis.

Quote

She is still one rounding everything at the point he joins and will keep one rounding later on (she will need crts at a certain point but so well kagestu a bit later) It really doesn't become relevant until the very end of the game which has like 100x ways to be fixed, roy, sword power, marth, fire emblem if you want to go that, route etc etc...  Even with being weighed down by swords Lapis can still double high tier fast enemy's even in end game.

From what I remember Swordmasters have upwards of 37 speed towards the end of the game, and there isn't any unit that's going to be doubling those without serious grinding. There are also a lot of enemies that have good defense making it hard to deal damage without emblems; magic is the only thing that consistently hits hard without taking outside factors into consideration.

[lenticular]

I don't have much to say on the subject of Lapis vs Chloé vs Kagetsu (or vs Céline, or vs Merrin, or whoever else), but I will just say this. In my first time through the game (hard/classic), I used Chloé (griffin knight, Lyn) and she ended up being my single best unit. My second time through the game (maddening/classic) is ongoing and I am using Lapis (wolf knight, Lucina) and she is shaping up to be one of my best units as well. So I mostly suspect that I'm going to end up coming down on the side of "both are good, use whichever you like best". I've not used Kagetsu yet, but from looking at his stats, I'm sure he'll be very good as well.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

It will be hard to talk about Lapis with out talking about Kagetsu and Chloe as they are who she so often gets compared to and is called redundant in comparison to. While I understand where this sentiment comes from and don't really agree with it on the fact that its like pitfall 101 to not use some units just cause they are like other units.

This is mostly what I wanted to talk about, though. I think that, possibly more than any other game in the series, Engage really does discourage using too many units that are too similar to each other. That's because of the importance of Emblems and engravings to character builds, which are unique resources. If two characters are very similar then they probably ideally want to have the same Emblem and the same engraving, and only one of them can have it.

Like, let's say that we decided to build a dodge tank using Chloé. We promote her into any class with a +20% speed growth, we give her Lyn's Emblem Ring, and put Micaiah's engraving on her weapon, then we have her inherit Pair Up from Corrin and Avoid +10 (or whatever level we can afford) from Marth. (I'm not saying that dodge tank is the best build for Chloé or that this is the best way to build a dodge tank. This is just an example.) If we then decided that we also wanted to turn Lapis into a dodge tank, then we couldn't repeat the same build on her. Maybe we pair her with Marth instead and put Lucina's engraving on her weapon. But she's not going to be reaching the same heights of avoid that Chloé did. And that has nothign to do with the inherent merits of the two units and everything to do with the builds that we give them.

In a sense, I almost think that the best way to think about building an endgame team for Engage is not to think in terms of which Emblems we're giving to each character, but which character we're giving to each Emblem. We know from the start exactly what Emblems we're going to be using by the end of the game: all of them. (Admitedly, this isn't true for people who have the DLC, but even then, there aren't all that many different options.) So we can look at the game and say "OK, I'm definitely using Marth, so which character do I pair him with to best take advantage of what he offers?"

In this paradigm, one of the marks of a strong unit is the ability to pair well with a lot of different Emblems. For example, a unit that will work really well with Eirika or Sigurd or Ike is easier to find a place for than one who only really works with Lyn. Flexibility is king.

Of course, the big weakness of this way of looking at things is that we don't have a full team of Emblems for most of the game. And for vast portions of the game, we're needing to have most of our units fighting on their own, and they need to perform well in that situation too. This stops me from being wholly onboard with the idea, but I do still think that it's a useful lens to look through when it comes to planning for the late game.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Engage does have a bad(?) habit of prepromotes who are flat out better than prior units, but I also think the disparity might be overstated. Lapis arguably suffers from joining in a period clustered around some of the best units in the game, but I also don't think Engage's experience distribution is scarce enough to rate her down for it, and she also stands to replace one of the many frankly not-good Firenese/Lythos units.

[Skyteppelin]

9 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Why does Kagetsu need Ike? His stats are better across the board and should therefore be able to fit in any role better than those two can.

I agree with you; this is incredibly important. If you don't take this into account it will often mask a character's weaknesses, and I think that this is what is happening when you evaluate Lapis.

From what I remember Swordmasters have upwards of 37 speed towards the end of the game, and there isn't any unit that's going to be doubling those without serious grinding. There are also a lot of enemies that have good defense making it hard to deal damage without emblems; magic is the only thing that consistently hits hard without taking outside factors into consideration.

Idk how to do this mulit quote thing so Ill go point by point so you know which thing I'm responding to

1: he needs Ike around cause he can't become a wyv with out Ike (as he needs the axe proficiency to actually class change into it) is what I meant.

2: I don't think it is, cause not only have I done runs where I gave Lapis as little as i possibly could (not that I gave her nothing but no stat boosters, or any forges beyond the starting ones I gave her way back in chapter 8 ) and she turned out amazing still. In addition, I think this is what's happening to other people. Try giving your fav units like Chloe (or anyone) nothing to help them out and watch how poor they preform.  

3: Iv had a Lapis who could double them in two maddening runs. One as a swordmaster the whole run where she could just double with out any help, and the second as a wyv where she needed some spd takers. part of why I lean towards Swordmaster/Griffen knight being better in the end game but I still have to test it. (this goes for Kagetsu and Chloe as well not Lapis exclusive)  

1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Engage does have a bad(?) habit of prepromotes who are flat out better than prior units, but I also think the disparity might be overstated. Lapis arguably suffers from joining in a period clustered around some of the best units in the game, but I also don't think Engage's experience distribution is scarce enough to rate her down for it, and she also stands to replace one of the many frankly not-good Firenese/Lythos units.

First off based icon love my Kiseki. Anyway yea I do agree that engage does have this habit just not that Lapis is effected by because she joins at such a good time not a bad one.  She joins right when Master and second seals are becoming available and at level 10, when enemy spd is in just the right spot that you can make her double every enemy type. Honestly when it comes to EXP my problem on every run is always been Lapis its to much of it cause she is just one round EPing everything while every other unit has to wait till PP to grab there kills. 

 

9 hours ago, lenticular said:

I don't have much to say on the subject of Lapis vs Chloé vs Kagetsu (or vs Céline, or vs Merrin, or whoever else), but I will just say this. In my first time through the game (hard/classic), I used Chloé (griffin knight, Lyn) and she ended up being my single best unit. My second time through the game (maddening/classic) is ongoing and I am using Lapis (wolf knight, Lucina) and she is shaping up to be one of my best units as well. So I mostly suspect that I'm going to end up coming down on the side of "both are good, use whichever you like best". I've not used Kagetsu yet, but from looking at his stats, I'm sure he'll be very good as well.

This is mostly what I wanted to talk about, though. I think that, possibly more than any other game in the series, Engage really does discourage using too many units that are too similar to each other. That's because of the importance of Emblems and engravings to character builds, which are unique resources. If two characters are very similar then they probably ideally want to have the same Emblem and the same engraving, and only one of them can have it.

Like, let's say that we decided to build a dodge tank using Chloé. We promote her into any class with a +20% speed growth, we give her Lyn's Emblem Ring, and put Micaiah's engraving on her weapon, then we have her inherit Pair Up from Corrin and Avoid +10 (or whatever level we can afford) from Marth. (I'm not saying that dodge tank is the best build for Chloé or that this is the best way to build a dodge tank. This is just an example.) If we then decided that we also wanted to turn Lapis into a dodge tank, then we couldn't repeat the same build on her. Maybe we pair her with Marth instead and put Lucina's engraving on her weapon. But she's not going to be reaching the same heights of avoid that Chloé did. And that has nothign to do with the inherent merits of the two units and everything to do with the builds that we give them.

In a sense, I almost think that the best way to think about building an endgame team for Engage is not to think in terms of which Emblems we're giving to each character, but which character we're giving to each Emblem. We know from the start exactly what Emblems we're going to be using by the end of the game: all of them. (Admitedly, this isn't true for people who have the DLC, but even then, there aren't all that many different options.) So we can look at the game and say "OK, I'm definitely using Marth, so which character do I pair him with to best take advantage of what he offers?"

In this paradigm, one of the marks of a strong unit is the ability to pair well with a lot of different Emblems. For example, a unit that will work really well with Eirika or Sigurd or Ike is easier to find a place for than one who only really works with Lyn. Flexibility is king.

Of course, the big weakness of this way of looking at things is that we don't have a full team of Emblems for most of the game. And for vast portions of the game, we're needing to have most of our units fighting on their own, and they need to perform well in that situation too. This stops me from being wholly onboard with the idea, but I do still think that it's a useful lens to look through when it comes to planning for the late game.

1: Chloe is def better on hard mode she is insanely cracked its not even funny,

2: I agree you bring up a very good point, It does really feel like in this game emblems are our characters more so then our units. Although for the case of Lapis Chloe and Kagetsu. Lyn Isn't the only emblem they can go just the one they want if they want to go wyv. They work with Roy and Marth just as well just don't get them back for a long while, also with things like Erika and even Leif. But yea I agree in that flexibility is king. I personally rate Dia as one of the best units in the game and that's mainly cause outside of the mage emblems he is good with pretty much every emblem.  

[LukeB]

12 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

So all this is why I think Lapis is just not inferior to Chloe cause even you do give everything you possible can to Chloe the difference in them is slightly in Chloe's favor at best. Or you can feed your other units who are more helpful in the chapters you are doing then get a level 10 Chloe for free.

The fact that you used this conclusion as a negative when comparing Chloe to Lapis.  But then dismissed the same thing when comparing Lapis and Kagetsu shows favoritism in your comparisons.

Even if you are using her consistently, she is almost certainly going to be a lower level then Kagetsu when he joins, something that you did not acknowledge at all. But even if you show her hyper favoritism, and you fed her basically every kill you could from the moment she joined to the moment Kagetsu joined, and she managed to be at his level (so 10/7 to his prepromoted 15/1) he would still have +4 HP, +3 Str, +5 Dex, +4 Def, +3 Bld. That is a big difference. 

Or, just like you said for Chloe, "you can feed your other units then get a level 15/1 (with higher stats) Lapis for free"

I personally think that Kagetsu and Merrin are a tier above the other speedsters, while Chloe and Lapis and StrClass!Clanne are all fairly interchangeable once reclassed. -- But you are right that all these speedy units, if given all tools to succeed, can likely carry your playthrough. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by LukeB

[Colonel M]

Weird, I had a message from 2018 and I sadly don't remember the person.

Okay, I have actually read both this and the Reddit post and all I'm going to say is:

Lapis is never going to be better than Kagetsu.

Kagetsu is a unit that is so minimum effort out of the box that there is nothing that needs to be done to fix him. He needs almost no fixing. Wyvern Knight, while being one of his better choices, isn't even a mandatory choice. Even if you do Wyvern Knight Kagetsu, the dude is so good that you can pick him up after Chapter 13 and just use him after that. The main focal point of Kagetsu is that he is a unit that with no investment goes far and with investment goes even further beyond. Kagetsu has other classes he can choose from temporarily if you want to Second Seal him elsewhere or just keep him as a Swordmaster. Merrin is another one that is almost no investment out of the box for combat. Forged Daggers are very cheap and the ROI is insane, so you're likely doing that anyway.

The real problem I have with Lapis right now is that Rewarp exists after Chapter 8. Chapter 9 is a map that seems pretty easy to Rewarp with only 1 use, and that alone can shut out a lot of EXP for Lapis as well. 10 is a bit harder. I have to map out what Rewarp uses are used for this and what Paralogues feel necessary to do, since some Paralogues are worthwhile to unlock some potential with Engage mechanics while others are just "meh". That can potentially stunt some of her growth, and honestly if Endgame can be labbed out with Rewarp / Warp uses, it's very possible to use these early on and skip them. 9 has nothing to offer. 10 is kind of annoying to do normally because it takes a lot of turns to go around, though the issue is you have a lot less tools to work with there so not sure on that one.

As for the evaluation - I think you're forgetting that Chloe is pretty helpful early on because, while her Speed is too slow to double some units like the Swordfighters, it's still fast enough to double things like Mages, Archers, and she can use Ridersbane later on if needed to pot shot. She's one of the better recipients of Sigurd - there aren't major competitors for the ring other than maybe Louis. Sigurd also gives Ridersbane which is pretty nice to have on hand.

And for everything else - I think Lapis is "fine". She's a midgame unit that can be used if you want, but I don't really see where her benefits really come in. Share Spoils is a double edged sword when you transition into Crit builds, and I can't say I'm really a fan of dodge tanking in this game. You can't dip too high in dodge or enemies flat out ignore you. Furthermore, later on Wyvern Knights for example have Certain Blow which also makes strategies like that very suspect. You can't even always bank on Terrain because the game just tosses a shitload of Sages, which Mystical simply ignores your Avoid from Terrain anyway. She is definitely not Top 3.

- Kagetsu definitely is #1. Merrin is definitely #2. If we speak strictly on combat.

- If we include overall, we now have to include Hortensia and Seadall, which their utility is pretty invaluable.

- Ivy, while she's not a unit that mops the floor, is another very low investment unit that has perks with 1-3 range and Staves while flying.

- Pandreo comes shortly after Lapis and is one of the better, if not best Mages you can have. I think even if you do Dire Thunder Pandreo is better because Party Animal helps one of Dire Thunder's biggest issues - hitting the damned foe. Lindon is also a solid Mage because he can have Crit with his weapons if he uses lower ranked tomes.

- Fogado is a unit that you're going to put some investment in if you use him, but he comes with innate Bow Rank and can have Silvers as a Warrior. You can keep him in Cupido too and take advantage of his cavalry movement with Swords / Bows.

And I'm not going to tell you these units are better than Lapis, but that their low investment for some of them make them far more reliable candidates in the long term when they aren't being heavily favored while still being monsters of their own when they do have some favoritism placed on them. This also ignores other units like Zelkov and Yunaka, the former being a solid unit without a ton of investment (he doesn't even mind waiting to be Level 21 in his class), while Yunaka technically can have the sling treatment and have okay results. I won't really call her great though.

The overall statement - Lapis is a unit that is worth investing if you want, but I don't think she holds a candle to Chloe personally since Chloe also has good availability, a class that is good in its utility even in Engage, and still can scale well if you invest in her too. She's also fairly versatile in her class potential since she has Magic and Strength. And to be clear - I don't even think Chloe is really all that great either. She just is useful if you do the slinging of resources onto her treatment like many, many earlygame units. She thankfully just stands out because of her join time and class. Lapis is just "superfluous" in the end. Good enough to use, just nothing that screams "I really should use her".

Edited February 22, 2023 by Colonel M

[Skyteppelin]

12 minutes ago, LukeB said:

The fact that you used this conclusion as a negative when comparing Chloe to Lapis.  But then dismissed the same thing when comparing Lapis and Kagetsu shows favoritism in your comparisons.

Even if you are using her consistently, she is almost certainly going to be a lower level then Kagetsu when he joins, something that you did not acknowledge at all. But even if you show her hyper favoritism, and you fed her basically every kill you could from the moment she joined to the moment Kagetsu joined, and she managed to be at his level (so 10/7 to his prepromoted 15/1) he would still have +4 HP, +3 Str, +5 Dex, +4 Def, +3 Bld. That is a big difference. 

Or, just like you said for Chloe, "you can feed your other units then get a level 15/1 (with higher stats) Lapis for free"

I personally think that Kagetsu and Merrin are a tier above the other speedsters, while Chloe and Lapis and StrClass!Clanne are all fairly interchangeable once reclassed. -- But you are right that all these speedy units, if given all tools to succeed, can likely carry your playthrough. 

Yea I didn't address everything cause this post was already getting so long but the main difference is while Chloe till Lapis isn't your best unit. Lapis to Kagetsu Lapis is your best unit. Lapis is the only unit who can double sword based enemy's that aren't armor knights (as everyone can double them) and some lance based enemy's for basically this whole stretch of game.  So Lapis will naturally gain tons of kills cause she is one of your only strong EPers. Diamant is also a strong EPer and Yunaka can be (problem with Yunaka at this point is she can't kill back on sword enemy's. Nor can Diamant cause he can't double them ether).

So while In away I admit that it is favoritism towards Lapis its also just making the game way easier for you cause she can just solo half of the maps cause she is just that far ahead of the curve from the get go. 

[LukeB]

2 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

this whole stretch of game.

This whole stretch of the game is 4 chapters lol. 

And even if you feed her everything, she will still likely be a lower level with weaker offense and weaker defenses then Kagetsu joins with at base. Which is like, the definition of Kagetsu being a better unit. 

Lapis IS a good unit, and it is possible that the "optimal team" runs both, but she is not as good as Kagetsu.

Unless you are giving her points for subjective things like appearance/personality/being your waifu. 

[samthedigital]

11 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

2: I don't think it is, cause not only have I done runs where I gave Lapis as little as i possibly could (not that I gave her nothing but no stat boosters, or any forges beyond the starting ones I gave her way back in chapter 8 ) and she turned out amazing still. In addition, I think this is what's happening to other people. Try giving your fav units like Chloe (or anyone) nothing to help them out and watch how poor they preform. 

If she still turned out amazing without any forgings or engravings then emblems will likely be the reason. There are too many enemy types that she can't realistically one round otherwise.

Quote

Iv had a Lapis who could double them in two maddening runs. One as a swordmaster the whole run where she could just double with out any help, and the second as a wyv where she needed some spd takers.

Quote

So Lapis will naturally gain tons of kills cause she is one of your only strong EPers.

I just pulled up my Chloe for reference and she hit 38 speed at the end of the game. My original assumption was that you grinded or your Lapis was otherwise blessed, but feeding her a lot of kills to make her juggernaut also makes sense. If Lapis can do that though there are a lot of units who can do the same thing given similar treatment.

Quote

he needs Ike around cause he can't become a wyv with out Ike (as he needs the axe proficiency to actually class change into it) is what I meant.

I think I misinterpreted what you said; my statement was in regards to comparing the units in general terms and not in wyvern in particular.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, Colonel M said:

Weird, I had a message from 2018 and I sadly don't remember the person.

Okay, I have actually read both this and the Reddit post and all I'm going to say is:

Lapis is never going to be better than Kagetsu.

Kagetsu is a unit that is so minimum effort out of the box that there is nothing that needs to be done to fix him. He needs almost no fixing. Wyvern Knight, while being one of his better choices, isn't even a mandatory choice. Even if you do Wyvern Knight Kagetsu, the dude is so good that you can pick him up after Chapter 13 and just use him after that. The main focal point of Kagetsu is that he is a unit that with no investment goes far and with investment goes even further beyond. Kagetsu has other classes he can choose from temporarily if you want to Second Seal him elsewhere or just keep him as a Swordmaster. Merrin is another one that is almost no investment out of the box for combat. Forged Daggers are very cheap and the ROI is insane, so you're likely doing that anyway.

The real problem I have with Lapis right now is that Rewarp exists after Chapter 8. Chapter 9 is a map that seems pretty easy to Rewarp with only 1 use, and that alone can shut out a lot of EXP for Lapis as well. 10 is a bit harder. I have to map out what Rewarp uses are used for this and what Paralogues feel necessary to do, since some Paralogues are worthwhile to unlock some potential with Engage mechanics while others are just "meh". That can potentially stunt some of her growth, and honestly if Endgame can be labbed out with Rewarp / Warp uses, it's very possible to use these early on and skip them. 9 has nothing to offer. 10 is kind of annoying to do normally because it takes a lot of turns to go around, though the issue is you have a lot less tools to work with there so not sure on that one.

As for the evaluation - I think you're forgetting that Chloe is pretty helpful early on because, while her Speed is too slow to double some units like the Swordfighters, it's still fast enough to double things like Mages, Archers, and she can use Ridersbane later on if needed to pot shot. She's one of the better recipients of Sigurd - there aren't major competitors for the ring other than maybe Louis. Sigurd also gives Ridersbane which is pretty nice to have on hand.

And for everything else - I think Lapis is "fine". She's a midgame unit that can be used if you want, but I don't really see where her benefits really come in. Share Spoils is a double edged sword when you transition into Crit builds, and I can't say I'm really a fan of dodge tanking in this game. You can't dip too high in dodge or enemies flat out ignore you. Furthermore, later on Wyvern Knights for example have Certain Blow which also makes strategies like that very suspect. You can't even always bank on Terrain because the game just tosses a shitload of Sages, which Mystical simply ignores your Avoid from Terrain anyway. She is definitely not Top 3.

- Kagetsu definitely is #1. Merrin is definitely #2. If we speak strictly on combat.

- If we include overall, we now have to include Hortensia and Seadall, which their utility is pretty invaluable.

- Ivy, while she's not a unit that mops the floor, is another very low investment unit that has perks with 1-3 range and Staves while flying.

- Pandreo comes shortly after Lapis and is one of the better, if not best Mages you can have. I think even if you do Dire Thunder Pandreo is better because Party Animal helps one of Dire Thunder's biggest issues - hitting the damned foe. Lindon is also a solid Mage because he can have Crit with his weapons if he uses lower ranked tomes.

- Fogado is a unit that you're going to put some investment in if you use him, but he comes with innate Bow Rank and can have Silvers as a Warrior. You can keep him in Cupido too and take advantage of his cavalry movement with Swords / Bows.

And I'm not going to tell you these units are better than Lapis, but that their low investment for some of them make them far more reliable candidates in the long term when they aren't being heavily favored while still being monsters of their own when they do have some favoritism placed on them. This also ignores other units like Zelkov and Yunaka, the former being a solid unit without a ton of investment (he doesn't even mind waiting to be Level 21 in his class), while Yunaka technically can have the sling treatment and have okay results. I won't really call her great though.

The overall statement - Lapis is a unit that is worth investing if you want, but I don't think she holds a candle to Chloe personally since Chloe also has good availability, a class that is good in its utility even in Engage, and still can scale well if you invest in her too. She's also fairly versatile in her class potential since she has Magic and Strength. And to be clear - I don't even think Chloe is really all that great either. She just is useful if you do the slinging of resources onto her treatment like many, many earlygame units. She thankfully just stands out because of her join time and class. Lapis is just "superfluous" in the end. Good enough to use, just nothing that screams "I really should use her".

Responded on Discord.

Although for the CHloe stuff which I don't think I got to while I agree Chloe can be used for that I think Louis is the better choice cause he he will just do more one hit damage over all. 

4 hours ago, samthedigital said:

If she still turned out amazing without any forgings or engravings then emblems will likely be the reason. There are too many enemy types that she can't realistically one round otherwise.

I just pulled up my Chloe for reference and she hit 38 speed at the end of the game. My original assumption was that you grinded or your Lapis was otherwise blessed, but feeding her a lot of kills to make her juggernaut also makes sense. If Lapis can do that though there are a lot of units who can do the same thing given similar treatment.

I think I misinterpreted what you said; my statement was in regards to comparing the units in general terms and not in wyvern in particular.

 1: emblems do matter the most yea

2: Not a lot of units cause most of them can't double swords like Lapis can (Chloe and Kagetsu are some that can of course) 

3: All good, My writing isn't the best anyway 

 

1 hour ago, LukeB said:

This whole stretch of the game is 4 chapters lol. 

And even if you feed her everything, she will still likely be a lower level with weaker offense and weaker defenses then Kagetsu joins with at base. Which is like, the definition of Kagetsu being a better unit. 

Lapis IS a good unit, and it is possible that the "optimal team" runs both, but she is not as good as Kagetsu.

Unless you are giving her points for subjective things like appearance/personality/being your waifu. 

While I don't fully agree I do see where you are coming from so I understand what you mean. 

[lemurmoo]

While I don't think a better character somehow discounts the usage of an inferior character, since Lapis is just worse by nearly every definition except being a potential user of Levin Sword that Kagetsu can't use quite as well, I think the most important thing here is actually how inflexible she is. I think realistically, her only use is being a slightly better dodge tank in a Corrin fog for maps that don't have a 1 square wide key chokepoint. Being a Mage Knight doesn't do enough to supplement her weak offense, her speed is hampered by her poor build.

But most importantly, the game doesn't ever really need more than 1 sword focused character mostly because Alear and their dragon-ness tends to break most emblem rings, and Kagetsu, albeit better fit as an axe user, can also fill that role. I think really the only one that ever needs 2 sword users is the palace map (Ch 14?) where there is a whole side of axe users that 2 sword users basically duo the entire area and still reach the thief in time. Kagetsu can basically fill that space, Alear the other. But aside from that, swords aren't honestly all that great. Fogado can fill as a pseudo Levin Sword user, as he will always have that magical weapon niche that the classical bow user that hasn't reclassed from a mage can possibly fill. Radiant bow is pretty broken so his smattering of magic ends up being bigger than the numbers suggest

She can be a hero to be a double chase attack bot with Levin Sword, and she will occasionally contribute to an armor unit kill at the most. Her high avo can probably help maintaining her at full HP, which makes her an in general very good avo tank along with her passive as she can be placed in the middle of a lot of enemies and contribute to double chase attacks. 

Her hit rate buff can also contribute to her becoming an axe user, which can supplement her generally low attack, but I don't think her speed growth/base can even make up for how much speed she will lose using an axe. There will also just be better axe users in general. 

 

On a side note about Yunaka, I think because daggers upgrade so well, it makes her crit rate buff pretty valuable. Giving her Byleth's luck buff and her frequent crit and above avg speed growths along with Corrin makes her a very good frontliner. Peshkatz gets up to 21 might 30 crit, Yunaka gets 15 crit from passive, Bylut gives 12 luck, that's before counting engraves. She dodges better and doubles more than Zelkov and crits basically 15% more often, which 3x dmg * 15% is that she does on avg 1.3x more dmg than Zelkov. There are a lot of flaws to this math esp considering def is a flat decrease b4 the crit, but there are even more factors to consider like Yunaka having better speed

Also it's probably not feasible to get max Pesh and max bond with Byleth in time for this to even matter, but it's the type of growth that Yunaka can have, on top of just more chapters to work with where she can be funneled with early stat boosters, which is a whole other subject. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by lemurmoo

[Dark Holy Elf]

Perhaps the most meaningful disadvantage Kagetsu has to the part 1 characters he is being compared to is that he misses the opportunity for part 1 skill inheritance. Canter is really good. Avoid+10 and Sword Agility 1 are... not as good because Speed+3 exists and does 60% of their job and a lot more, but are still worth noting for the role these characters might potentially play, and they're cheap.

That said Lapis is in a tougher spot than Chloe or Celine for this, because she starts with just 200 more SP than them, three chapters and four to five levels later (potentially plus two paralogues). She needs to gain 5 levels (i.e. reach Level 15, or 10/6, etc.) prior to Chapter 10 to inherit Canter, for example. Celine and Chloe just need to reach Level 12/13 (or equivalent) respectively. The avoid skills are on the table for all three, naturally.

Lapis's other big advantage over Kagetsu is that swordmaster is pretty underwhelming (especially if you lack a magic stat, since Levin is the only 2-range sword); Lapis can escape to a flier or hero or warrior almost immediately but he has to wait until Chapter 14 (since Lyn and Lucina thought it would be funny to both be sword+bow).

[Skyteppelin]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Perhaps the most meaningful disadvantage Kagetsu has to the part 1 characters he is being compared to is that he misses the opportunity for part 1 skill inheritance. Canter is really good. Avoid+10 and Sword Agility 1 are... not as good because Speed+3 exists and does 60% of their job and a lot more, but are still worth noting for the role these characters might potentially play, and they're cheap.

That said Lapis is in a tougher spot than Chloe or Celine for this, because she starts with just 200 more SP than them, three chapters and four to five levels later (potentially plus two paralogues). She needs to gain 5 levels (i.e. reach Level 15, or 10/6, etc.) prior to Chapter 10 to inherit Canter, for example. Celine and Chloe just need to reach Level 12/13 (or equivalent) respectively. The avoid skills are on the table for all three, naturally.

Lapis's other big advantage over Kagetsu is that swordmaster is pretty underwhelming (especially if you lack a magic stat, since Levin is the only 2-range sword); Lapis can escape to a flier or hero or warrior almost immediately but he has to wait until Chapter 14 (since Lyn and Lucina thought it would be funny to both be sword+bow).

Pretty much yea, Lapis biggest problem is SP although its not impossible for her to canter if you really want it but certainly is a investment. Although Iv been personally finding build 3 amazing on lapis (with out DLC anyway) for early forged killing edge to just go to town with. 

[lenticular]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Lapis's other big advantage over Kagetsu is that swordmaster is pretty underwhelming (especially if you lack a magic stat, since Levin is the only 2-range sword); Lapis can escape to a flier or hero or warrior almost immediately but he has to wait until Chapter 14 (since Lyn and Lucina thought it would be funny to both be sword+bow).

He also has a lot less flexibility in what he can reclass into. Which may or may not be relevant depending on your party composition and the role you need him to play. If you're looking for any sort of lance class, then you're waiting until chapter 17. And if you want a wolf knight or griffin rider then he won't get there until chapter 18. Which doesn't inherently make him a worse unit, but does make him pretty clearly worse at those specific roles.

[DaveCozy]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:51 AM, Skyteppelin said:

This is probably by far my most controversial opinion if I went by other peoples tier list cause most people put Lapis in the bottom tier as one of the worst units.

Lapis is definitely a slept on unit. I think it's because she joins in a not very useful class for her join chapter, so she's easy to overlook. But her stats are honestly pretty good, similar to Chloe's, and you can just reclass her to Wyvern by ch9 to have her stomp things hard.

I'm not entirely sold on whether she's better than Kagetsu and Chloe though, but I don't think it's highly important to find out either. Engage isn't a game that you can just Seth-solo efficiently (it is probably possible to solo, but I doubt it would be efficient). Enemies have very high stats and bosses have multiple health bars, so having multiple units that can stomp enemies is useful.

I am planning to run Maddening with all of Chloe, Lapis and Kagetsu in the same run. I don't see why not.

 

On 2/22/2023 at 12:51 AM, Skyteppelin said:

So in this instance its better to give are energy drop to Alear or Louis cause they will not only help us clear this chapter faster

Jean's paralogue only has 3 archers to speak of, while ch5 in Maddening only has 1 archer en-route to the boss, with only 2 more appearing as reinforcements. If you're emphasizing a fast clear, you can just ignore the reinforcements too, and ignore the chests as they don't have particularly necessary items (Armorslayer and Obstruct staff can eventually just be bought from the shop and aren't badly needed at this point).

Chapter 5 is particularly weird because, compared to Hard, one of the Archer and one of the Axe Fighter enemies both get replaced by Mage enemies instead in Maddening. So it actually means Chloe becomes more valuable in Maddening for that chapter while Louis would actually get dented harder. Feel free to verify that here: https://fe17.triangleattack.com/maps/retaking_the_castle

I do also think you're being a bit hard on Chloe and in general underestimating how useful early flight is. It's not as centralizing as previous FE games - not like 3H CF which was pretty much "screw horses use fliers" lol - but it's still pretty good in Engage to let you safely engage a specific enemy while putting you in the clear of dangerous enemies.

Other relevant situations include clearing out the nearby thunder mage and baiting a sword and thief enemies to her in chapter 6 (she won't double them, but they won't double or ORKO her either), using walls to her advantage. And if promoted early with the master seal from Anna's Paralogue to a Sword/Lance Wyvern, consistently doubling the axe/lance fighters and archers while safely baiting Hortensia in ch7 and Ivy in ch8. She will ORKO the regular enemies too with the right equipment and the energy drop bumping her offenses to 15 spd and 15 str on Fixed growths.

Again, I do agree Lapis is a good unit, but I don't see why that suddenly means Chloe shouldn't get those resources either. I don't think the lack of those resources would make Lapis worse necessarily, she doesn't join at that point and even when she does, she can't take flight until chapter 9 earliest. And you do need to clear those chapters to get there eventually.

Edited February 23, 2023 by DaveCozy

[Skyteppelin]

3 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Lapis is definitely a slept on unit. I think it's because she joins in a not very useful class for her join chapter, so she's easy to overlook. But her stats are honestly pretty good, similar to Chloe's, and you can just reclass her to Wyvern by ch9 to have her stomp things hard.

I'm not entirely sold on whether she's better than Kagetsu and Chloe though, but I don't think it's highly important to find out either. Engage isn't a game that you can just Seth-solo efficiently (it is probably possible to solo, but I doubt it would be efficient). Enemies have very high stats and bosses have multiple health bars, so having multiple units that can stomp enemies is useful.

I am planning to run Maddening with all of Chloe, Lapis and Kagetsu in the same run. I don't see why not.

 

Jean's paralogue only has 3 archers to speak of, while ch5 in Maddening only has 1 archer en-route to the boss, with only 2 more appearing as reinforcements. If you're emphasizing a fast clear, you can just ignore the reinforcements too, and ignore the chests as they don't have particularly necessary items (Armorslayer and Obstruct staff can eventually just be bought from the shop and aren't badly needed at this point).

Chapter 5 is particularly weird because, compared to Hard, one of the Archer and one of the Axe Fighter enemies both get replaced by Mage enemies instead in Maddening. So it actually means Chloe becomes more valuable in Maddening for that chapter while Louis would actually get dented harder. Feel free to verify that here: https://fe17.triangleattack.com/maps/retaking_the_castle

I do also think you're being a bit hard on Chloe and in general underestimating how useful early flight is. It's not as centralizing as previous FE games - not like 3H CF which was pretty much "screw horses use fliers" lol - but it's still pretty good in Engage to let you safely engage a specific enemy while putting you in the clear of dangerous enemies.

Other relevant situations include clearing out the nearby thunder mage and baiting a sword and thief enemies to her in chapter 6 (she won't double them, but they won't double or ORKO her either), using walls to her advantage. And if promoted early with the master seal from Anna's Paralogue to a Sword/Lance Wyvern, consistently doubling the axe/lance fighters and archers while safely baiting Hortensia in ch7 and Ivy in ch8. She will ORKO the regular enemies too with the right equipment and the energy drop bumping her offenses to 15 spd and 15 str on Fixed growths.

Again, I do agree Lapis is a good unit, but I don't see why that suddenly means Chloe shouldn't get those resources either. I don't think the lack of those resources would make Lapis worse necessarily, she doesn't join at that point and even when she does, she can't take flight until chapter 9 earliest. And you do need to clear those chapters to get there eventually.

Yea I don't think Chloe is bad or not worth the resources, I def go a bit far into dunking on Chloe cause she gets sited as the reason so often that Lapis is useless so I just wanted to present the flip side argument of how you could view Lapis as "better". So while I personally stand by Lapis being the better unit I understand why someone would vaule Chloe more . 

[FashionEmblem]

Lapis is probably fine. I didn't use her because my team already felt crowded with sword users with Alear, Diamant, an eventual Hero (Amber), and all the emblem swords.

For comparison to Kagetsu, at his join time Master Seals are still rather scarce, so it's a major boon that Kagetsu starts prepromoted. Since Lapis can be replaced by Kagetsu, there's a Master Seal you saved. You only get 4 Master Seal's through chapter 10 so any promotion is favoritism for that character; Kagetsu gets to avoid this competition. By the end of Chapter 11 you've now had 7 Master Seals, but also added Ivy to the list of units in competition to promote.

The benefit of early units is that they have easier reclassing and early access to Canter. More reclassing early on is nice, but not something unique to her. I'd say from a resource perspective it's a problem that her base niche—sword back-up—is so crowded. Like, yes you can reclass her for a better fit, but that costs gold which I find does get tight before beating Chapter 14 (in part thanks to spending lots of money on seals). And for Canter, Lapis unfortunately starts in the worst batch of units for SP—level 10, 500 SP away, and only 2 chapters (+ maybe a couple paralogues) to gain it. At this point Jean's and Anna's paralogues won't grant much experience since you are overleveled for them, aside from Micaiah Great Sacrifice spam (and several of the other candidates for such favoritism have an easier time getting more SP than her).

Edited February 24, 2023 by FashionEmblem

[lenticular]

14 minutes ago, FashionEmblem said:

For comparison to Kagetsu, at his join time Master Seals are still rather scarce, so it's a major boon that Kagetsu starts prepromoted. Since Lapis can be replaced by Kagetsu, there's a Master Seal you saved. You only get 4 Master Seal's through chapter 10 so any promotion is favoritism for that character; Kagetsu gets to avoid this competition. By the end of Chapter 11 you've now had 7 Master Seals, but also added Ivy to the list of units in competition to promote.

I've found that there isn't a huge amount of competition for Master Seals because I end up not keeping all that many early-game units for the long term. In my first play through, I kept Alear, Céline, Chloé, Louis, Yunaka, and Ivy. And while I didn't know to early promote then, that would only have been 4 characters wanting Master Seals before chapter 10. In my second game, I've kept Alear, Jean, Anna, Citrinne, Lapis, Diamant, Amber, Jade, and Zelkov. Which is more people, but that's partly because I was deliberately making myself pick units I didn't use in my first game. And even then, I was only one Master Seal short by the time Kagetsu shows up.

Yes, Master Seals are a resource and they are in finite supply and that does need to be considered, but I've never really felt an actual scarcity of them.

Thinking about things, I wonder if there's a useful comparison to be made to Radiant Dawn here. In RD, the units of the Dawn Brigade are pretty much outclassed by the units from the Greil Mercenaries, so it's uncommon to bring a big contingent of Dawn Brigade units to the Tower. So the way that I (and I think many others) approach the Dawn Brigade is to pick a small number of people I'm going to use long-term, show them favouritism where I can, but otherwise just focus on whatever gets through their maps. Who cares if Nailah is stealing xp from Edward if I'm going to be benching Edward soon anyway?

I think that a similar mentality can be applied to early characters in Engage, although not quite to the same extent. But in general, I think that you absolutely should be showing favouritism to a few early units and then drop the rest. Which is a shift in mentality from most FE games where there's a good argument for keeping more early units with you until the end of the game.

[FashionEmblem]

8 hours ago, lenticular said:

I've found that there isn't a huge amount of competition for Master Seals because I end up not keeping all that many early-game units for the long term. In my first play through, I kept Alear, Céline, Chloé, Louis, Yunaka, and Ivy. And while I didn't know to early promote then, that would only have been 4 characters wanting Master Seals before chapter 10. In my second game, I've kept Alear, Jean, Anna, Citrinne, Lapis, Diamant, Amber, Jade, and Zelkov. Which is more people, but that's partly because I was deliberately making myself pick units I didn't use in my first game. And even then, I was only one Master Seal short by the time Kagetsu shows up.

Yes, Master Seals are a resource and they are in finite supply and that does need to be considered, but I've never really felt an actual scarcity of them.

Thinking about things, I wonder if there's a useful comparison to be made to Radiant Dawn here. In RD, the units of the Dawn Brigade are pretty much outclassed by the units from the Greil Mercenaries, so it's uncommon to bring a big contingent of Dawn Brigade units to the Tower. So the way that I (and I think many others) approach the Dawn Brigade is to pick a small number of people I'm going to use long-term, show them favouritism where I can, but otherwise just focus on whatever gets through their maps. Who cares if Nailah is stealing xp from Edward if I'm going to be benching Edward soon anyway?

I think that a similar mentality can be applied to early characters in Engage, although not quite to the same extent. But in general, I think that you absolutely should be showing favouritism to a few early units and then drop the rest. Which is a shift in mentality from most FE games where there's a good argument for keeping more early units with you until the end of the game.

Agreed. I just wanted to point out that this is a choice so for Lapis to match Kagetsu she needs to be within your top 4-7 units going into Chapter 12. In a ranking sense, I have to give the win and higher spot to Kagetsu for coming ready out of the box and not placing an opportunity cost on your army. Also, I think ceding the argument that early game characters are replaceable really hurts Lapis since she comes in the batch with the worst SP. If you take both Lapis and Chloé into Wyverns then they perform pretty similarly stat wise. But, Chloé has a much easier time getting Canter than Lapis.

Then you wind up with, how many characters in a similar niche would you run simultaneously? Maybe you should run all three of Kagetsu, Chloé, and Lapis? (and Merrin also fills a similar role). I'm inclined to agree with others that what makes characters stand out is their synergies with emblems and engraves. Since emblems and engraves are finite that kind of makes redundancy bad, which hurts Lapis since she requires more investment than Kagetsu and Merrin and has fewer early SP opportunities than Chloé.

Finally, since I'm harping on SP, whom should receive SP favoritism around Lapis' join time? Citrinne and Alcryst join at the same time, and Amber's 800 SP one chapter later isn't dissimilar (it's difficult to get him 200 SP in Chapter 9 alone)—all of these characters will struggle to get Canter. But if we gave any one of them Micaiah Great Sacrifice favoritism, Alcryst has exclusive access to Luna (which I find very good, albeit gambling, with high enemy defense in maddening) and Citrinne just has stupidly high magic (great Dire Thunder user). Amber is the weakest here, but is also the closest to Canter. I think even just favoring him with bond fragments for Mercurius or Recover might be just enough for him to get Canter in time without needing Micaiah (thus without denying Canter to another character). I emphasize Canter so much because it's one of the few things that gives the early units a chance to stand-out against their mid-game replacements.

Overall, I just think Lapis suffers from facing a lot of competition to get her off the ground. If she joined with more SP (~700) or in a better base class (Master/Second Seal less essential and less competition for her inherent niche) then I'd change my tune. If you're willing to bench/replace everyone then the competition softens, but why isn't Lapis also in the group of units to be benched/replaced when she requires more investment than others and her prepromoted replacement is literally the first prepromote to join you after Vander?

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, FashionEmblem said:

Agreed. I just wanted to point out that this is a choice so for Lapis to match Kagetsu she needs to be within your top 4-7 units going into Chapter 12. In a ranking sense, I have to give the win and higher spot to Kagetsu for coming ready out of the box and not placing an opportunity cost on your army. Also, I think ceding the argument that early game characters are replaceable really hurts Lapis since she comes in the batch with the worst SP. If you take both Lapis and Chloé into Wyverns then they perform pretty similarly stat wise. But, Chloé has a much easier time getting Canter than Lapis.

Then you wind up with, how many characters in a similar niche would you run simultaneously? Maybe you should run all three of Kagetsu, Chloé, and Lapis? (and Merrin also fills a similar role). I'm inclined to agree with others that what makes characters stand out is their synergies with emblems and engraves. Since emblems and engraves are finite that kind of makes redundancy bad, which hurts Lapis since she requires more investment than Kagetsu and Merrin and has fewer early SP opportunities than Chloé.

Finally, since I'm harping on SP, whom should receive SP favoritism around Lapis' join time? Citrinne and Alcryst join at the same time, and Amber's 800 SP one chapter later isn't dissimilar (it's difficult to get him 200 SP in Chapter 9 alone)—all of these characters will struggle to get Canter. But if we gave any one of them Micaiah Great Sacrifice favoritism, Alcryst has exclusive access to Luna (which I find very good, albeit gambling, with high enemy defense in maddening) and Citrinne just has stupidly high magic (great Dire Thunder user). Amber is the weakest here, but is also the closest to Canter. I think even just favoring him with bond fragments for Mercurius or Recover might be just enough for him to get Canter in time without needing Micaiah (thus without denying Canter to another character). I emphasize Canter so much because it's one of the few things that gives the early units a chance to stand-out against their mid-game replacements.

Overall, I just think Lapis suffers from facing a lot of competition to get her off the ground. If she joined with more SP (~700) or in a better base class (Master/Second Seal less essential and less competition for her inherent niche) then I'd change my tune. If you're willing to bench/replace everyone then the competition softens, but why isn't Lapis also in the group of units to be benched/replaced when she requires more investment than others and her prepromoted replacement is literally the first prepromote to join you after Vander?

Of course while I only can speak from my experience and its not like do LTC runs or anything like that. But the reason I favor Lapis (and I mention it in this post but talked about it more in then reddit post I made) Is that I believe Lapis to be one of the best units for those resources cause she can offer you something that no other unit can aside from a trained Chloe and that's doubling sword fliers and myrmidon. Which extended into the point of this post which was presenting a arugment on why it could be better to use her over Chloe given there similarities and respective usefulness when they join. Further extending that in how both Lapis and Chloe get access to a better class eariler then Kagetsu does for not much of a difference in performance if any.