Lapis in comparison to Chloe and Kagetsu. Why I think Lapis is better or at least just as good.

[Skyteppelin]

25 minutes ago, Zanarkin said:

You can enjoy the game using op units, units that need a lot of babying, or using a mix of them. It is your game, and if someone says you are playing wrong, they missed the point of something being a game.  It is also important to see the context of tier lists. They are typically done in the sense of which units will lead you to most easily beat the game, often with LTC in mind for fire emblem. That doesn't mean you have to value that. It also not impossible to accomplish 'good' runs with non S-tier units. The run wouldn't be as easy, but it should still be possible to get 'good' results.

I defiantly agree on most of this points yea, I personally always use the units I just simply like which normally means I use a Mix of """bad""" and good units. However my arguments for Lapis do come from a place of her being good not bad. Which seems like most people don't agree with which in tern don't agree with that disagreement lol.   

[BloodRonin]

I just don't see the point of her. Statistically if she is same class and level as the others, she will have less overall offenses b4 stat boosters are used. But anyone can become good if you use stat boosters or invest. 

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, BloodRonin said:

I just don't see the point of her. Statistically if she is same class and level as the others, she will have less overall offenses b4 stat boosters are used. But anyone can become good if you use stat boosters or invest. 

She has more then Chloe. Does want stat boosters if she wants to exactly match kagetsu which I think is a worth while invesment but I don't hold it as a boon for her

[samthedigital]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:19 PM, Skyteppelin said:

indeed just Lapis is one of the best long term options cause she the spd to stay ahead of the curve just making it easier overall.

The thing is that we can't give her a lot of credit when a lot of other units can do the same thing. She might be a good long term investment, but that doesn't mean she's helping out a lot more now relative to other units.

On 3/24/2023 at 2:19 PM, Skyteppelin said:

I talked with CM extensively about this last night and I don't want to speak for the guy so CM can correct me on anything. But with what he showed me and what we discussed. We basically came to the agreement that the only turns that Chloe herself helps save is a turn on Jean chapter. She doesn't actually do anything to help save turns on any chapter before that, she's just around gathering XP. Then on chapter 7 there is a turn 1 clear with Chloe but there from what I understand are other turn 1 clears that don't involve her (this I might be wrong about not 100%). Then from then on Lapis can replace Chloe, Lapis can also OHKO the boss of Anna chapter while Chloe can't idk if this changes anything about doing the chapter but is something there.  CM was telling me that the only reason to keep using Chloe is the sunk cost of having already got edelgard to bond 12 with her.  So if bond isn't a problem then Lapis will play the exact same as Chloe from then on just slightly stronger. Also mentioned how there very will could be other ways to turn 2 jean chapter.  Which all being said at least proves to me that they really shouldn't be any different in a tier list setting unless you just really really really vaule that 1 turn that Chloe saves (Which from what I understand Lapis might be able to get back on Anna chapter but not sure) 

I wasn't so much going for turn counts rather than general utility. If Chloe=Lapis when they are both around and Chloe>Lapis when Lapis doesn't exist (and it doesn't take much, Etie is better than Lapis because she can kill fliers for example because Lapis doesn't exist... don't take this as a general argument for Etie though; just until Lapis joins) then Chloe>Lapis.

[Skyteppelin]

11 hours ago, samthedigital said:

The thing is that we can't give her a lot of credit when a lot of other units can do the same thing. She might be a good long term investment, but that doesn't mean she's helping out a lot more now relative to other units.

I wasn't so much going for turn counts rather than general utility. If Chloe=Lapis when they are both around and Chloe>Lapis when Lapis doesn't exist (and it doesn't take much, Etie is better than Lapis because she can kill fliers for example because Lapis doesn't exist... don't take this as a general argument for Etie though; just until Lapis joins) then Chloe>Lapis.

We spent a good chunk of the argument talking about talking about how if units can do the same thing they should be ranked similarly and if you still don't agree on that then going down this line again isn't going to get us anywhere.

same point as the last time around. Like if you really want to value those 3 maybe 4 chapters where chloe is around that lapis isn't as making her way better then Lapis inspite of Lapis joining with similar if not better stats then I guess sure.  I personally don't agree cause Chloe isn't even close to the most useful unit when she is around from everything iv seen were I'm tempted to say Celine is the way better unit cause by all logic that I understand she is the one actually saving you way more turns. If we go by your logic for LTC and efficiency anyway. 

[samthedigital]

32 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

I personally don't agree cause Chloe isn't even close to the most useful unit when she is around from everything iv seen were I'm tempted to say Celine is the way better unit cause by all logic that I understand she is the one actually saving you way more turns. If we go by your logic for LTC and efficiency anyway. 

Chloe doesn't have to be the most useful unit or save turns in an efficiency context. If she has a positive contribution that automatically puts her over any unit that doesn't exist yet until their utility can outweigh hers. It's the argument you'd make for Lapis over Kagetsu, and it should apply for Chloe also.

32 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

We spent a good chunk of the argument talking about talking about how if units can do the same thing they should be ranked similarly and if you still don't agree on that then going down this line again isn't going to get us anywhere.

It's not so much about ranking similarly so much as how much credit we're giving to the units when they exist and other units don't. Seadall obviously gets a lot of credit for being a dancer when he's the only one whereas on the other extreme end Clanne wouldn't be given a lot of credit for being able to chip enemies or to use Great Sacrifice. It ties to the point above; you have to give Chloe some amount of credit for her contributions before Lapis exists. How much we're giving her exactly will vary I guess, but it would be disingenuous to give her none.

Edited March 30, 2023 by samthedigital

[asm335]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:19 PM, Skyteppelin said:

Framme will not, I can tell you right now as someone who uses her she will not. Lapis also only needs 1 stat booster while Framme would need like literally all of them and even then would prob only match Lapis let alone kagetsu. 

Lapis literally needs 2 energy drops, 1 Seraph Robe, 5 secret books, 2 speedwings, 5 goddess icons, and 2 dracoshields to match Kagetsu. Framme needs just 1 energy drop to match Lapis' midgame strength if they're put on the same class path and then they're basically the same unit. Without the energy drop, she'll trail Lapis by 1 point of strength by the endgame and be nearly identical everywhere else.

[Skyteppelin]

3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Chloe doesn't have to be the most useful unit or save turns in an efficiency context. If she has a positive contribution that automatically puts her over any unit that doesn't exist yet until their utility can outweigh hers. It's the argument you'd make for Lapis over Kagetsu, and it should apply for Chloe also.

It's not so much about ranking similarly so much as how much credit we're giving to the units when they exist and other units don't. Seadall obviously gets a lot of credit for being a dancer when he's the only one whereas on the other extreme end Clanne wouldn't be given a lot of credit for being able to chip enemies or to use Great Sacrifice. It ties to the point above; you have to give Chloe some amount of credit for her contributions before Lapis exists. How much we're giving her exactly will vary I guess, but it would be disingenuous to give her none.

Okay so is Lapis better then Kagetsu then? If yes then I agree Chloe is like 1 place above lapis but they are def in same tier still. If not well where back at square one. 

Of course I'm giving her some, its just not a lot based on what iv seen talked about and my own personally experience she is certainly good and worth using but doesn't change all that much so favoring her or not is up to preference.  Like you can train her by having her help here and there, then you can use her for the rest of the game. Which means you can just ignore Lapis or use her as well. Or you can just not worry about Chloe train other units instead and then get the same unit in Lapis later. Regardless of which way you chose your not really going any faster or slower in any context that iv understood so like just do what you want. But that to me def means they are at least in the same tier. 

 

12 minutes ago, asm335 said:

Lapis literally needs 2 energy drops, 1 Seraph Robe, 5 secret books, 2 speedwings, 5 goddess icons, and 2 dracoshields to match Kagetsu. Framme needs just 1 energy drop to match Lapis' midgame strength if they're put on the same class path and then they're basically the same unit. Without the energy drop, she'll trail Lapis by 1 point of strength by the endgame and be nearly identical everywhere else.

She doesn't need to match all of kagetsu's stats to do the same things as him is my problem with this arugment. IN order to double you need to have 5 more spd then the enemy so if Lapis can double everything that kagestu can with "lower" spd then that spd isn't really a big deal. Sure its like a extra point or two of avoid but lapis doesn't have bad avoid so like idk just doesn't really matter. Same with Str if kagestu has 2 more strength but him and Lapis still kill everything in the same amount of time then it really doesn't matter who has more strength. And as someone who has used lapis many times through out the whole game where she can one round everything, I don't really see how Kagestu also one rounding everything with tiny bit better stats really changes anything at all. This is also ignoring any and all levels and other skills lapis can get that kagestu can't. But sense any unit gaining levels to them better is apparently the end all be all for a unit being good Lapis shouldn't be allowed any levels.

[asm335]

11 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

This is also ignoring any and all levels and other skills lapis can get that kagestu can't.

What would those be? The one that does almost the same thing as Kagetsu’s but also nerfs Lapis’s crit?

And if a deficit of 4 strength, 10 Dex, 10 luck, 4 speed, 5 HP, and 4 defense isn’t a big deal, why am I supposed to believe that the 2 to 1 strength difference between Framme and Lapis is?

[samthedigital]

35 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Okay so is Lapis better then Kagetsu then? If yes then I agree Chloe is like 1 place above lapis but they are def in same tier still. If not well where back at square one.

I don't really agree that either unit is better than Kagetsu, but it's something that we've talked about, and I don't think that there's any other productive ways of going about that discussion. I think that wee concluded earlier that it's ultimately a matter of how good they're going to get and how much they contribute before Kagetsu arrives which will vary depending on playstyle.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, asm335 said:

What would those be? The one that does almost the same thing as Kagetsu’s but also nerfs Lapis’s crit?

And if a deficit of 4 strength, 10 Dex, 10 luck, 4 speed, 5 HP, and 4 defense isn’t a big deal, why am I supposed to believe that the 2 to 1 strength difference between Framme and Lapis is?

Bro context, first off none the stat boosters to make Framme that good are even around for most of the game, she's also much harder to train, and doesn't start as a good combat class. enough with the strawman. 

 

 

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

I don't really agree that either unit is better than Kagetsu, but it's something that we've talked about, and I don't think that there's any other productive ways of going about that discussion. I think that wee concluded earlier that it's ultimately a matter of how good they're going to get and how much they contribute before Kagetsu arrives which will vary depending on playstyle.

Indeed.

[asm335]

I don’t actually think that Framme is as good as Lapis. It was an illustration of why you don’t bring up stat boosters when comparing units.

[Skyteppelin]

28 minutes ago, asm335 said:

I don’t actually think that Framme is as good as Lapis. It was an illustration of why you don’t bring up stat boosters when comparing units.

I don't really agree that's why I stat boosters shouldn't be brought up cause I think they are important if people can have healthy discussions about the ideas just more often then not people can't which is why I said in the first place I didn't want to bring it up.  

[asm335]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

I don't really agree that's why I stat boosters shouldn't be brought up cause I think they are important if people can have healthy discussions about the ideas just more often then not people can't which is why I said in the first place I didn't want to bring it up.  

And yet you just dismissed it with the Framme comparison to Lapis when all she needs is 1 early energy drop to be Wyvern Lapis 2.0.

[Skyteppelin]

22 minutes ago, asm335 said:

And yet you just dismissed it with the Framme comparison to Lapis when all she needs is 1 early energy drop to be Wyvern Lapis 2.0.

Well mainly cause I don't think she does, mainly cause she has a lot of other factors holding her back mainly in how hard it is to get EXP on her with out really taking a hit to a lot of things. Although Id love to try this with framme at some point cause it sounds funny (which now that I think about it on my first run of the game I think I did give it to framme)

[Barren]

I guess I can throw in my thoughts on Lapis. She is fine as a unit, could be worth a team slot considering that Framme has a bunch of supports including Alear, Chloe, Anna and Kagetsu so you could use all of them if you want to.

Lapis can be a low investment Hero by equipping her with Leif emblem at least for chapter 9 to inherit build +3. It’s pretty cheap and early for her to get as it will allow her to wield heavier weapons without being weighed down too much.

Alternatively you could just get her up to Bond level 2 with leif to inherit an axe proficiency and wait until Lyn is available for speed +3. Or give her sigurd for a bit in chapters 8 & 9 and feed her enough kills/spend bond fragments until she can get it up to Bond level 6 for the lance proficiency.

After that grab Dual Assist/Dual Assist+ from Lucina since it combos quite nicely with Brave Assist. Skill books from the well can help with the SP.

If you want more of a combat efficient role for her, have her go Wyvern Knight. This class patches up her strength and defense.

[Florina is Cool]

Genuinely surprised at some of the takes here! I'd like to share my experiences with Laipis and friends. First time playthrough, maddening, on chapter 12 currently. My favorite units in Fire Emblem are myrmidons, especially female swordfighters, so when I saw Lapis I was like awesome, a swordfighter ready to be promoted.

Here's the thing: she's basically a Marisa, Fir, or FE9!Mia; not an Ayra. She's got the classic drawbacks of low bulk and low offense, offset somewhat by very high speed. I promoted her immediately and got her to around level 5/6 by the end of chapter 11. She is only performing okay. I don't see where she, from the get go, clears through hordes of enemies. What does she 1 round? Mages? Pegs? Archers? The frailest classes that literally anyone can 1 round? And this isn't even 100% of the time due to her low strength.

End of chapter 11, I'm given Kagetsu. Holy shit. He is SO much better in EVERY category, if I recall. As a lower level swordmaster than Lapis (though I think his internal level of 15 would about match my Lapis at this point), he makes me feel I wasted time feeding Lapis any experience at all. He joins as better Lapis, and with a slightly better personal. There is, as of now, for a person who used Lapis quite a bit, and intentionally trained her, ZERO reason to take Lapis over Kagetsu for 1 of my 10 deployment slots.

All that said, I gave her a forged steel sword with the +40 avoid engraving, and she soloed the left half of the map with Rosado. Unreliably so, as enemy hit rates had to be >0 on her, so if she got hit by Rosado and a mook she died, which happened more often than one would think. Thing is, couldn't anyone do this? Yunaka sitting on the same avoid tile Lapis used could probabaly have done so without needing the engraved sword even, and she wouldn't need to move off the tile to attack the 1-2 range wyverns as Lapis did.

Chloe was amazing from the moment you get her. Similar combat (better due to 1-2 range IMO) but flight being invaluable for clearing paths of mages and killing the thief/mage cannon guy in chapter 10, for example. She, without trying, was promoted by the Lapis chapter. As a level 1 wyvern the comparison is not there. She entirely outclasses Lapis here.

Note that I am NOT playing efficiently. I took like 8+ turns for chapter 11, as I wanted to kill as many units as possible. Even with this slow paced playstyle, Lapis is only okay in my opinion. I feel she would be even worse in an efficient playthrough. The only counters to this I have read are anecdotes of people saying she is good from turn 1, but I have not seen any numbers to back this up, no key enemy types she is taking down, no performance indicators at all. I will continue to use her till endgame, cause she's a cute swordmaster, but when I saw most people put her in D tier, I find it hard to argue. Personally I would say C is as high as she should go, but I haven't finished the game yet so that may change.

[link16hit]

Lapis growth rates is more or less good, apart speed, which one of the highest. Put her in General to fix her STR, DEF and BLD. When SPD is capped, goes Great knight?

Her personal skill is useful for avoiding/hitting. And she is a good candidate for Eirika if you go with Great knight and Lunar Brace + is too good.

She is not as good as Kagetsu or Chloe, but Lapis is one of the units you need to twink a bit.

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Florina is Cool said:

The only counters to this I have read are anecdotes of people saying she is good from turn 1, but I have not seen any numbers to back this up, no key enemy types she is taking down, no performance indicators at all. I will continue to use her till endgame, cause she's a cute swordmaster, but when I saw most people put her in D tier, I find it hard to argue.

She has -2HP, +2Str, -3Dex, -1Speed, +1Def, +1Res, -3Luck, and -1Bld compared to Chloe assuming no stat boosters were used and that they are at the same level; you should have access to Second Seals to change her class by this point. You would want to do that too since Swordmaster isn't very good. Chloe can gain an extra level before we have access to Second Seals, but it should be close enough of a comparison. Just based on the stats they should be performing fairly similarly; Lapis has more strength to one round certain enemies, but she has even more issues with weapons that weigh her down. That's all to say that just based on the numbers she shouldn't be doing all that much worse than Chloe outside of as a Griffin Knight with a Levin Sword; off the top of my head Chloe has 5 magic on Lapis and it's pretty easy to determine who is better there.

C and D tier should be reserved for units who either take a lot more work to do anything or whose stats are not good enough to do anything long term without favoritism; I could use Boucheron, Alfred, Etie, Anna, etc as examples. I don't feel the same way as Skyteppelin to be sure as to me she doesn't match the best characters in the game.

This isn't really related to what I'm quoting, but since I last posted in this topic the well and more dlc content has been introduced, and I've also played through the game again to play the DLC and to try out different things. The well changes the dynamic a bit; Lapis used to have a harder time getting Canter, but it's not as much of an issue anymore because SP scrolls are more readily available. DLC on the other hand is something I wouldn't really consider for a variety of reasons mostly related to the fact that it breaks the game and depending on when we do the DLC. My carries from the early game had Canter and Starsphere and were at level 10 promoted gaining 2 exp per enemy by the time I had Kagetsu. It's a world of difference to the base game. Now that I think about it though Kagetsu's base stats are still better than just about every physical unit without stat boosters even in this context unless units are specifically leveling with Starsphere.

Edited April 15, 2023 by samthedigital

[Florina is Cool]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

She has -2HP, +2Str, -3Dex, -1Speed, +1Def, +1Res, -3Luck, and -1Bld

Interesting, they are very similar it seems if on equal level and class. Do you disagree that it is expected, however, to have Chloe a level 1 Wyvern by the time Lapis' chapter even starts? That alone gives her a boost, since she can certainly put work in that chapter, while Lapis only competes if she has both seals and uses them both mid-chapter. Which I also feel is off the top giving more resources to Lapis, as Chloe did not require a second seal and was helpful up until this point as well. Not relevant to discussion, but I like playing without class swapping (one of my least favorite things added to the series) during initial plays, and it has lead me to favoring Chloe a lot more, so I am trying to take that bias into account since reclassing is a part of the game.

[BloodRonin]

40 minutes ago, Florina is Cool said:

Lapis only competes if she has both seals and uses them both mid-chapter

If you run online relay battles as soon as you can you get 2nd and master seals (10% chance participate reward) and could run both.

 

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Florina is Cool said:

Interesting, they are very similar it seems if on equal level and class. Do you disagree that it is expected, however, to have Chloe a level 1 Wyvern by the time Lapis' chapter even starts? That alone gives her a boost, since she can certainly put work in that chapter, while Lapis only competes if she has both seals and uses them both mid-chapter.

I had a promoted Chloe by the time Lapis joined on my latest playthrough, so I don't disagree with you necessarily, but it will depend on the context of the playthrough somewhat too. Someone who plays more efficiently than I do might not have had the time to gain as much experience for example. My latest playthrough took ~300 turns doing all content not counting DLC whereas an efficiency run might be able to more than halve that number.

1 hour ago, Florina is Cool said:

Which I also feel is off the top giving more resources to Lapis, as Chloe did not require a second seal and was helpful up until this point as well.

As above I agree with you for the most part especially concerning how Chloe is useful before we get Lapis, and she's also better in the chapter where we get Lapis too. I probably also mentioned something to this effect over the course of this topic, but I would not recommend reading it all lol. I don't feel as strongly about the Second Seal use though. We're probably not investing in too many characters from the early game, so as long as it's not wasteful I think it's fair for Lapis to not be penalized for using the resource.

[Skyteppelin]

Wyv is not great until Lyn really so doing griffin or Swordmaster is fine before then, the important part of Lapis and Chlos is that they are fast which they lose if they go wyv until lyn really. I really don't think Swordmaster is that bad and idk why people say it is the only thing it lacks is strong 1-2 range and when it comes to doubling with 1-2 range unless your build is crazy high you aren't doing it with out Lyn. And flying from the chapter 7-11 Span while certainly useful isn't really game breaking or meta defining, warp or no warp. Although also 1-2 range isn't super insane in this game cause enemy arch types are so varied and strong so I rather have my fast units being able to double sword enemy's rather then 1-2 ranging the odd 2 range enemy here or there. 

I could go on another talk about why Chloe is a fine unit before you get Lapis but not really your best by any means. Vander, Celine, Louis, and Alear are all more useful imo, certainly worth using of course and very good for the long term compare to those 4. Just more so that what she adds to the team before Lapis isn't really all that notable. 

But anyway my argument was never that Chloe isn't good in the first place, just that her strengths aren't really all that in comparison to Lapis so they should be treated far more similarly then they are.  

[samthedigital]

49 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

And flying from the chapter 7-11 Span while certainly useful isn't really game breaking or meta defining, warp or no warp.

It depends on what you mean by meta defining; if you want to get through those chapters quickly you need to get through obstacles that only fliers can bypass without warp along with the +1 move; that seems pretty meta defining to me.

Quote

Although also 1-2 range isn't super insane in this game cause enemy arch types are so varied and strong so I rather have my fast units being able to double sword enemy's rather then 1-2 ranging the odd 2 range enemy here or there.

Most 1-2 range options aren't great, but some people now consider Ivy to be the best unit in the game because she has good 1-2 range, and with Lyn she doubles and can kill most things. She can get Bonded Shield support when she needs help surviving EP too. The other thing is that with SP being more accessible Wrath/Vantage setups and the like are also easier to set up, so there isn't nearly as much value in doubling fast enemies as the game goes on especially when not warp skipping maps.

Edited April 16, 2023 by samthedigital

[BloodRonin]

Lapis has grown on me after figuring I can get an infinite amount of second and master seals as soon as you complete chapter 6. (Yay relay battles). But then again, with dlc anything can be turned OP. Lapis does look good in red though so that is a plus. Her personal skill is great for Mage cannon. But her growths are kinda meh for it.