So...let's talk tiers.

[Lord Raven]

No, it's everybody else who wants Merc.

But one at a time.

Yes it is, because of the sheer fact that Bord makes somebody actually worth using, worse. I could replace him with just about any "average" unit there is, Barst could have his merc class, average character is just as good [if not better] as Merc Bord, everything's fine.

It's hindering it in relative means. Everyone below mid-high tier is technically hindering everything in mid-high and above because using them = not using everyone else. Let's just demote them to bottom tier and make everyone else mid-high and above, while we're at it!

Oh, sure. Let's just pretend his negative effect on Wolf, Sedgar, Barst, and Daros doesn't exist at all. That's real accurate.

Missing the point. Let's pretend we're not using them for a playthrough, or just using one of the above as a Mercenary and Bord as one as well. Then let's judge Bord instead of on just one factor; how others are so much better than him as a Mercenary. Which is relevant to outclassing.

Below Wil IIRC.

You want to get the entire list for me? I have little clue who Wil is below.

I'm not asking you to. I'm asking you to have the decency to actually read what you're arguing against before you actually arguing it. ...Thank you for doing that, this was starting to piss me off how I kept having to repeat it about 5000 tmes.

What I'm arguing is that one man's presence does not make another man completely invisible. I don't need to read much to figure out that's why Bord sucks on your list.

Regardless of how much he's hindering one other unit (at a time), he still has a worth regardless of whether or not it's less than that other character. Bord is who I'm referring to as the outclassed one, and Daros/the others are who I'm referring to as the outclassers.

At any rate, wouldn't Cord/Daros/Oguma be taking away a Hero spot from Sedgar/Wolf? Move them down a lot of spaces, I say!

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

It's hindering it in relative means. Everyone below mid-high tier is technically hindering everything in mid-high and above because using them = not using everyone else. Let's just demote them to bottom tier and make everyone else mid-high and above, while we're at it!

Except I can use those characters simultaneously with others. And tiers determine a characters worth IF they're being played, not how well they add to the team overall. Of course Caesar and Vyland aren't making it on most teams, but they're still better than quite a few other units.

You want to get the entire list for me? I have little clue who Wil is below.

I remember he's in bottom.

t any rate, wouldn't Cord/Daros/Oguma be taking away a Hero spot from Sedgar/Wolf? Move them down a lot of spaces, I say!

I actually agree with this statement. Ogma is actually a pretty meh unit now [below average bases, meh growths, et cetera], probably not worth the merc slot he uses. Daros also isn't as good as Oguma even as Merc, so he should probably go down too. Merc was never factored in for Cord in the first place.

[Lord Raven]

Except I can use those characters simultaneously with others. And tiers determine a characters worth IF they're being played, not how well they add to the team overall. Of course Caesar and Vyland aren't making it on most teams, but they're still better than quite a few other units.

Bord seems better than most of Low to me as a Merc. Oguma and them are probably better than low mid as Mercs, even if they're taking away a slot for Sedgar/Wolf (whose huge valuability should still not discount how good other units are.)

I remember he's in bottom.

Not entirely what I was asking. Who is in bottom and low?

I actually agree with this statement. Ogma is actually a pretty meh unit now [below average bases, meh growths, et cetera], probably not worth the merc slot he uses. Daros also isn't as good as Oguma even as Merc, so he should probably go down too. Merc was never factored in for Cord in the first place.

At least you're not a hypocrite. This is still biased logic, heavily towards Sedgar and Wolf; even if they are better, they're still taking away from other units that have potential, be it good or bad.

... Also, Nagi in high? Really? She's there for the entirety of a chapter. Up Mid at the very best, but grouping her with the likes of Julian and Hardain? My OCD can't possibly agree with that.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Not entirely what I was asking. Who is in bottom and low?

I can't be bothered to find it again.

And fine, I'll move him to low mid for now, and daros and ogma down to up mid. But we aren't done with this discussion, I want it resolved one way or the other eventually.

... Also, Nagi in high? Really? She's there for the entirety of a chapter. Up Mid at the very best, but grouping her with the likes of Julian and Hardain? My OCD can't possibly agree with that.

Can the likes of Hardain and Julian do the final chapter in one turn?

Edited December 20, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

I can't be bothered to find it again.

I should take a quick look eventually. If we factor out Harken (which we should if we're judging purely on Karel's performance), he can easily go above Wil.

Can the likes of Hardain and Julian do the final chapter in one turn?

Does Nagi exist prior to the final chapter? Nope, and Hardain/Julian actually do. And they have use for those chapters on top of that; Nagi's final chapter usefulness really shouldn't be ranked on par with their usefulness for the rest of the game.

Merry Fucking Christmas, by the way. I just found it funny, that's all.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Nagi's position is a bit strange. Chiki can pretty much do the same as Nagi in the final chapter so why is there a 1 tier difference between them?

[Lord Raven]

To be fair, Tiki's stats aren't really going to be as high despite Tiki getting EXP quickly. I'd group Nagi around where Tiki is myself, if not a teensy bit lower.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

To be fair, Tiki's stats aren't really as high. I'd group Nagi around where Tiki is myself.

Tiki has time to grow and she easily gets support from Marth to make her accuracy as good as Nagi (only off by 2-3% IIRC). Tiki also has greater damage potential since you can feed her Energy drops on the prep screen.

And hell, Tiki's base durability being lower than Nagi's is actually a good thing for the 1 turn strategy.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Boo

[Lord Raven]

Edited my post a bit. I think I've made it fully clear now that I believe Tiki > Nagi.

You know what I really hate? When you post and have a second thought. Seriously. Then someone reads your post and then you edit something into your post and stuff...

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

Saji (Bord... ugh) won't hit 20 first unless you BABY HIM, which is applying favoritism. He won't reach 20 without babying because he can't double when you get him, so to level up he's forced to take final blows for everyone, kills that could be made more efficiently with better units.

That's not what I was implying. I was implying that Bord naturally gets the promotion item after other units who are better and hit level 20 sooner. That doesn't deny him a promotion item, though. And when considering the tier list, Abel/Kain/Barst etc. aren't even guaranteed to be used (which means that Bord gets the promotion item before other units!).

Edited December 20, 2008 by dondon151

[Rodykitty]

I feel like the only reason Bord was placed in Lower Mid was over an argument as to how to judge characters, not because of how he was actually judged.

I can't see him above Elice, who gets late game healing power, but I can also see him above the likes of Lorenz.

Bord is better off as a Fighter anyway. He sucks when leveled up even as a Mercenary, so at least do the right thing and not switch him over to E Swords, and instead keep in mind he does have at least a bit of utility as a Hammer/Steel Axe user, and can probably be used as a sacrificial Devil Axer.

[Lord Raven]

E rank is easy to increase, as far as I'm aware.

[Rodykitty]

Yes, but he'll need a C Rank to use an Armor Slayer, while he's using a Hammer right away.

On the subject of Nagi, join time doesn't automatically make a unit suck if that unit is not underleveled, and can join your ranks without anyone being removed or EXP being taken away from.

Gotoh is more useful if you're taking the final chapter slowly, but Nagi is much more useful if you're clearing the chapter in a single turn (which may involve the use of Tiki at the same time as well). I agree that the ability to help clear the game in less turns warrants a decent spot on the tier list. The fact that she can co-exist with Tiki means that you aren't even sacrificing the use of Tiki, just choosing either her or Gotoh based on style of play.

Edited December 20, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

To be fair, he won't be class changing until a bit after he's using the Hammer. Not seeing the relevance with this point, though.

I still see him above most of Bottom. I just feel that the original judging was the entire reason why he was in bottom in the first place.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

To be fair, he won't be class changing until a bit after he's using the Hammer. Not seeing the relevance with this point, though.

He's not using the hammer for the first few chapters. He's better off using the Hammer even after class swap comes around to help the rest of your team advance by killing an armor knight for you. This is utility value. An E/D Sword isn't really going to do that, and even if you want him to damage non-armors, he gets Iron Axes to do so.

I still see him above most of Bottom.

Definitely not Low Mid, though.

----

On the subject of Nagi, just because she doesn't exist for the entirety of the game does not mean she sucks. She doesn't come underleveled, so she can actually be added to your team without EXP being distributed away from other characters.

Gotoh is better if you're playing through the chapter normally, and can afford to kill most of the units on it, but the fact that Nagi gets utility value in clearing the chapter in one turn warrants a good tier spot. The fact that she can coexist with Tiki means that you don't have to choose between her and Tiki, only between her and Gotoh, which is a decision based on whether you're trying for low turn count or not.

[Posaydal]

Tiki has time to grow and she easily gets support from Marth to make her accuracy as good as Nagi (only off by 2-3% IIRC). Tiki also has greater damage potential since you can feed her Energy drops on the prep screen.

And hell, Tiki's base durability being lower than Nagi's is actually a good thing for the 1 turn strategy.

The problem I find with Tiki that Nagi doesn't have is that Tiki takes up a slot in your roster; Nagi is effectively a bonus character who's not taking up space any other character can fill (apart from Gotoh, but if you did 24x you're not getting him anyway).

[Dat Nick]

I should take a quick look eventually. If we factor out Harken (which we should if we're judging purely on Karel's performance), he can easily go above Wil.

Maybe that IS a bit harsh, especially considering lolWil. But you just can't ignore the fact that he's blocking out one of the best units in the game, and his own combat abilities aren't that great.

Does Nagi exist prior to the final chapter? Nope, and Hardain/Julian actually do. And they have use for those chapters on top of that; Nagi's final chapter usefulness really shouldn't be ranked on par with their usefulness for the rest of the game.

But it's not just Royal level endgame performance, and that was debatably putting them above Ike and co. This the best endgame performance ever. For one turn, I can certainly see it as possible. Yes you can use Tiki too, but that actually requires effort, Nagi requires none.

[Lord Raven]

Maybe that IS a bit harsh, especially considering lolWil. But you just can't ignore the fact that he's blocking out one of the best units in the game, and his own combat abilities aren't that great.

"Blocking out one of the best characters" is irrelevant considering the circumstances. I could put forth a similar argument stating that getting Harken = not going through the chapter as fast = lowering tactics, but oh well.

His combat abilities should be better than Wil and the like, however; definitely not bottom tier material. I see him top of low/bottom of mid ideally if you factor out Harken. In which, Harken has no bearing on his combat abilities.

But it's not just Royal level endgame performance, and that was debatably putting them above Ike and co. This the best endgame performance ever. For one turn, I can certainly see it as possible. Yes you can use Tiki too, but that actually requires effort, Nagi requires none.

Helping them beat every other chapter safely >>>>>>>> beating the final chapter in one turn. Julian can thief around for the extra warp staffs you'll need to transport her there in the first place.

Tibarn/Naesala at least have a good 7 chapters of performance each (well, two or three [depending on how you fight black knight and sephiran chapters] of those are really quick), whilst Giffca/Caineghis should be lower than Ike (five chapters, two or three are real depending on perception).

On the subject of Nagi, just because she doesn't exist for the entirety of the game does not mean she sucks. She doesn't come underleveled, so she can actually be added to your team without EXP being distributed away from other characters.

I'm not saying she sucks. I'm just saying she's overrated by this list.

Definitely not Low Mid, though.

Yeah I took another look, he beats Bottom but lower mid is too much.

[Dat Nick]

"Blocking out one of the best characters" is irrelevant considering the circumstances. I could put forth a similar argument stating that getting Harken = not going through the chapter as fast = lowering tactics, but oh well.

It is NOT irrelevant. He's screwing over the team as a whole by blocking out Harken, who is 5000x times better than Karel. Lowering the penalty for that handicap is fine. Ignoring it is not.

And, uh, getting through the chapter slower? The hell do you figure that?

His combat abilities should be better than Wil and the like, however; definitely not bottom tier material.

I never disagreed with this. I was the one who stated below Wil was a little overkill. But still, you just can't pretend that the fact he blocks out quite possibly the best hero in the game [statistically, Raven has utility] isn't there, that's just plain stupid. If Sothe blocked out Volke in FE9, he'd probably be bottom tier as well, or at the very least, his position would lower dramatically.

In which, Harken has no bearing on his combat abilities.

It has QUITE the bearing on the team's overall ability since Harken is considered one of the best units in the game.

Helping them beat every other chapter safely >>>>>>>> beating the final chapter in one turn. Julian can thief around for the extra warp staffs you'll need to transport her there in the first place.

Julian isn't required for any of the chests in the game [For the ones behind doors? Buy keys], his earlygame is lol, and even his endgame isn't that great. So no, he's not really that helpful. Honestly? I can see him going down. Hardain? Maybe.

[_____]

And, uh, getting through the chapter slower? The hell do you figure that?

You need to either not kill a lot of the promoted enemies or not open a lot of the doors. It's hindering your progress.

[Don Draper]

In a tier list, the list is assuming that the character is being used. Nobody will use the same team over and over again, which is why Karel can't be penalized for blocking Harken. Characters should be judged on their own merits.

[Dat Nick]

Nobody will use the same team over and over again

False statement.

Characters should be judged on their own merits.

...Except when their existence either hurts somebody else on the team or blocks them out altogether, screws your funds rank, or slows down progress [i.e: Linde, Rolf, Gordin needing to be fenced in]. It's not the same thing as just sucking individually, like Est/Sothe, they're the only ones who care about their suckage.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

False statement.

True statement. I myself use different people every runthrough (not ENTIRELY different teams) which agrees with the statement made. You can't claim it's false unless you've asked every single person that's played FE DS whether or not they switch up teams; I do switch up my teams, so therefore the statement is true. Just apparently, not in your case.

This same argument applies to higher tier = more use. Not true unless you've, once again, asked EVERY single FE DS player how often they've used a unit.

...Except when their existence either hurts somebody else on the team or blocks them out altogether, screws your funds rank, or slows down progress [i.e: Linde, Rolf, Gordin needing to be fenced in]. It's not the same thing as just sucking individually, like Est/Sothe, they're the only ones who care about their suckage.

Dart and Farina are obviously extreme examples. They're not blocking out others so to speak, but they're COMPLETELY specialized units in terms of funds. In which case, the player should be willing to accept that they're going to be destroying funds and plan explicitly just to use them.

In which case, Farina has shortcomings starting out anyway and Dart's having a hard time for a while because of the lack of an Iron Axe because you can't afford much, if at all, at that point in time due to lacking a Silver Card. Then his durability starts to get extremely shaky because he's STILL behind, then he just starts to suck and requires too much specialized attention; it's beyond your tactics rank, that's for sure.

Dart/Farina also hurt the ENTIRE team. It's like this...

Dart is level 20. Your team rank is 20 (arbitrary value).

Dart uses Ocean Seal. Because you lose funds, your team rank is 15.

Same case with Farina. She costs just as much to promote (40K to get her, 10K to promote; I could argue more since lances are expensive)

Linda/Rolf/Gordon are hurt more by the fact that they can only attack on the player phase (Linda can technically attack on both phases, but her durability is terrible), instead of the enemy phase. And by their frailty and their underpoweredness in relation to the enemies. The fact that they must be babied really adds insult to injury, but it's pretty much fully as a result of their frailty/lack of power starting out.

If they suck individually, that's cool. Bottom tier. If they're not as good as someone else, that's cool. Just put them below that person. But that someone else should have nothing to do with how good the guy in question is.

But Karel vs Harken? (this quote is also something that's relevant)

And, uh, getting through the chapter slower? The hell do you figure that?

Karel's a different example. It doesn't matter if he's blocking out Harken; this is bias towards Harken and assuming one wants to use Harken. Using Harken could hurt your tactics because it prevents you from rushing Jerme's map, or fighting certain enemies in Kenneth's map. Karel is less risky to use because of how flexible you can be with tactics on those maps as a result. They both require Turn 9, but one requires a lot of enemies/doors killed/opened version very few.

Team rank is 20. You recruit Karel. Team rank is 21.

Team rank is 20. You recruit Harken. Team rank is 23.

Karel isn't hindering the team one bit. Harken is helping it more, but Karel is still not hindering it. That is the point. I've got more hypothetical examples to back the principle I'm arguing, but we'll see where we go from here.

If Sothe blocked out Volke in FE9, he'd probably be bottom tier as well, or at the very least, his position would lower dramatically.

No, he would not. Being a thief is better than most of low and bottom tiers can even dream of.

It has QUITE the bearing on the team's overall ability since Harken is considered one of the best units in the game.

That's in relative terms. Which is irrelevant to Karel's output. Just in Karel's relative output to Harken.

Julian isn't required for any of the chests in the game [For the ones behind doors? Buy keys], his earlygame is lol, and even his endgame isn't that great. So no, he's not really that helpful. Honestly? I can see him going down. Hardain? Maybe.

In normal mode? His early game is decent at best. His endgame is average. His mid-game tends to be where he peaks at above average to some extent. While not mandatory, he still can speed things up by letting out an "lol" offense unit pick up the treasures while your "amazing" units take on everything else. Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

I myself use different people every runthrough (not ENTIRELY different teams) which agrees with the statement made. You can't claim it's false unless you've asked every single person that's played FE DS whether or not they switch up teams; I do switch up my teams, so therefore the statement is true.

Yes, because everybody plays the game the same way you do.

The statement was "nobody will use the same team twice". I've used the same team multiple times. I am a person, that statement is false.

In which case, Farina has shortcomings starting out anyway and Dart's having a hard time for a while because of the lack of an Iron Axe because you can't afford much, if at all, at that point in time due to lacking a Silver Card. Then his durability starts to get extremely shaky because he's STILL behind, then he just starts to suck and requires too much specialized attention; it's beyond your tactics rank, that's for sure.

He'd still be a hell of a lot higher than he is now if the Ocean Seal had a reasonable price.

. It doesn't matter if he's blocking out Harken; this is bias towards Harken and assuming one wants to use Harken.

No, it's not bias. It's a FACT that using Karel will hurt the overall ability of the team, partly because he's not that great himself, and that Harken is considered one of the best units at the game. Also, "lol Karel's negative effects on the team don't matter b/c it's not relevant to his performance" is FAR more biased than "bias towards Harken".

No, he would not. Being a thief is better than most of low and bottom tiers can even dream of.

Yes, it would. "Most of low and bottom tiers" don't block out Volke. At least if I take Makalov, I can still have a Thief who isn't going to get nuked by Bolting.

That's in relative terms. Which is irrelevant to Karel's output. Just in Karel's relative output to Harken.

Karel is a part of the team. Just by Karel even existing on the team, the team will get weaker. You can BS all day about how good he is as a whole, but at the end of the day, he is doing more damage than good. How heavy of a punishment this is is up for debate, but it IS a drawback, and it can't just be brushed aside.

In normal mode? His early game is decent at best.

3-rounding fighters is still pretty bad. "Decent" is pushing it.

Versus Nagi, he has an average to below average overall combat utility vs a very amazing final chapter performance. Avaliability isn't everything. This is almost like asking Ilyana to be higher than the royals, or Rhys above Tibarn/Naesala/Giffca, or Dorcas above Athos.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

No, it's not bias. It's a FACT that using Karel will hurt the overall ability of the team, partly because he's not that great himself, and that Harken is considered one of the best units at the game. Also, "lol Karel's negative effects on the team don't matter b/c it's not relevant to his performance" is FAR more biased than "bias towards Harken".

What negative effects? They both have their respective shortcomings.

Harken is one of the best units in the game? He's like mid/low high or something.

Yes, it would. "Most of low and bottom tiers" don't block out Volke. At least if I take Makalov, I can still have a Thief who isn't going to get nuked by Bolting.

No, it fucking wouldn't.

And finally, if you had to choose between Sothe and Volke you'd obviously choose Volke. But Sothe's performance isn't affected any one bit by choosing him over Volke. Bearing in mind, Sothe obviously does suck (but he still has utility), but it isn't hindering your team one bit. It's not like you had Volke for five chapters then you had a choice to kill him off for Sothe.

Then Sothe is detracting from your team that Volke is presumptuously in, because Volke is a better character and boosts the power of your team (somewhat, you can't deny that terrible offense). But in your instance, you have the choice at chapter x to choose between the two of them, having had neither in your team prior; then Sothe is a +0 to your team (not helping, not hindering) whereas Volke is a +3. This makes Volke the better choice, but it doesn't affect Sothe's performance either. He just helps the team less than Volke can, which once again only guarantees that Volke > Sothe, not the position of either character.

Karel is a part of the team. Just by Karel even existing on the team, the team will get weaker. You can BS all day about how good he is as a whole, but at the end of the day, he is doing more damage than good. How heavy of a punishment this is is up for debate, but it IS a drawback, and it can't just be brushed aside.

How is he doing more damage than good? Harken's doing good, Karel's doing decent. Karel should be bottom of Mid, Harken should be middle of high. Purely based on how well they're helping the team respectively, not how one of them is blocking out the other.

3-rounding fighters is still pretty bad. "Decent" is pushing it.

He two rounds, he three rounds like... mounts. No way he's three rounding fighters when he's one rounding thieves.

Versus Nagi, he has an average to below average overall combat utility vs a very amazing final chapter performance. Avaliability isn't everything.

It isn't everything, but it contributes to one's usefulness if you're especially if you're primarily a utility unit. This is almost like asking Matthew or Legault to be lower than Athos. Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves