So...let's talk tiers.

[Dat Nick]

Except that unlike Julian, Matthew's Thief utility is actually useful since he nets you the Silver Card, and Athos already IS higher than Legault.

...Know what? I'm done arguing this with you because all we wind up doing is repeating the same points over and over and it's not going anywhere. You can keep thinking that negatives a character brings to the team don't matter at all because "lol it's not affecting their performance". I'm not going to think that way, the FE7 tier list on gameFAQS pretty obviously doesn't think that way, so I can say safely I'm not alone on this point.

[Lord Raven]

I believe Legault > Athos but that's not the point of this thread. The other tier lists I recall seem to not agree with your sentiments.

And my primary point? One person's existence should not make another invisible. Karel is not complete shit, and the main point for his being so is the fact that he blocks out Harken. Which has nothing to do with how he performs. What are his other negatives? Or are you just going to keep his negatives as a completely blank claim?

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Clonez]

Harken is better than Karel because:

-Better durability (Karel starts with lol HP, axes widens Harken's avoid lead and Karel gets no avoid from supports.)

-Better offense (Higher STR and Axes>Critical)

-HM bonuses

-Better supports (Pheraens>Geitz. Plus they are faster)

If you have the option of getting one unit over the other, and that unit is better than the other in every way, you could say that the outclassed unit is pretty invisible.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Clonez

[Don Draper]

The statement was not "Nobody will use the same team twice". It was "nobody will use the same team over and over again", aka using the same team every playthrough. And you're assuming that somebody will pick Harken over Karel every single time they play, which is stupid.

[dondon151]

Where is the FE7 tier list on gamefaqs?

[Dat Nick]

certiantly not on the FE7 board.

Karel is not complete shit,

I never said he was, and I never said he was invisible. Nobody is claiming him invisible, and I even said myself, several times, that bottom tier was pushing it. But damn if blocking out Harken shouldn't knock him down to at least low.

It was "nobody will use the same team over and over again"

Which my very existance proves false.

What are his other negatives?

bad durability, bad support list, lack of 1-2 range

I just proved that statement incorrect, anyway.

And you're assuming that somebody will pick Harken over Karel every single time they play, which is stupid.

Nobody is saying Karel won't be played. But IF he is played, he will hurt the team overall.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[dondon151]

certiantly not on the FE7 board.

Yes, I'm not an idiot, but I'll be damned if I have to sift through pages upon pages of useless trash when you're more likely to know better where it is.

How about I rephrase my question: where is the FE7 tier list on the gamefaqs FE7 board?

[Dat Nick]

Search? Or don't you have an account?

[Rodykitty]

People who keep assuming the tier list is dictating who is using what should stop debating. Period.

The tier list is saying who is best on a team, not who you will actually use. Harken is best on your team. Does not mean you will use him, but he is factually better than Karel.

One person's existence should not make another invisible.

Of course not. It won't make another character's existence invisible, it will make another character lower on the tier list.

[Lord Raven]

Harken is better than Karel because: blah blah blah blah tell me something I don't know

If you have the option of getting one unit over the other, and that unit is better than the other in every way, you could say that the outclassed unit is pretty invisible.

Then everyone below high tier is invisible. Or may as well be bottom tier. Using them detracts from the EXP everyone else could be using to their own advantage, and is a waste of funds.

I never said he was, and I never said he was invisible. Nobody is claiming him invisible, and I even said myself, several times, that bottom tier was pushing it. But damn if blocking out Harken shouldn't knock him down to at least low.

No, it should not considering how he's doing fucking fine even if it isn't as good as Harken.

bad durability, bad support list, lack of 1-2 range

He can actually evade. :o! And yet, he's still better offensively than most of bottom and low.

Nobody is saying Karel won't be played. But IF he is played, he will hurt the team overall.

But how?

The tier list is saying who is best on a team, not who you will actually use. Harken is best on your team. Does not mean you will use him, but he is factually better than Karel.

Of course not. It won't make another character's existence invisible, it will make another character lower on the tier list.

It'll make y character lower than x character. He'll be lower because he's not as good. It won't bump him down any more or less if x character is better, but it'll at least guarantee that y character is lower than x character. Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

It'll make y character lower than x character. He'll be lower because he's not as good. It won't bump him down any more or less if x character is better, but it'll at least guarantee that y character is lower than x character.

Oooo...kay? This is just a more mathematical way of saying the exact same thing you just quoted...

[Lord Raven]

I interpreted what you said wrong. Like, I have no clue it's almost 1 AM and I'm fucking tired.

[Dat Nick]

Then everyone below high tier is invisible.

Most everybody in high tier doesn't affect the performance of another unit.

AND AGAIN NOBODY IS SAYING ANYBODY IS INVISIBLE I DONT EVEN KNOW WHERE THE HELL THAT CAME FROM GAD

Using them detracts from the EXP everyone else could be using to their own advantage

How? You're using twelve, fifteen tops specific units. Also, these units don't screw up another somehow. The only way that argument holds any water whatsoever is if you're rotating out units per chapter, which...makes no sense. Also, there's plenty of EXP in this game to go around. Enough to bump everybody to 20/15 if you go to gaidens.

and is a waste of funds.

You couldn't blow all the money in this game if you tried.

No, it should not considering how he's doing fucking fine even if it isn't as good as Harken.

He's barely doing better than fine. Also, the matter is him blocking Harken out, not him being inferior to Harken.

He can actually evade. ohmy.gif!

He has, like, no good supports and his luck kinda stinks, so not really. Harken probably gets better avo since he has SOME supports.

And yet, he's still better offensively than most of bottom and low.

And yet FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME I MYSELF HAVE STATED THAT BOTTOM WAS PUSHING IT A LITTLE

The tier list is saying who is best on a team

Exactly. And Karel blocking out one of the best units in the game is hurting the team. It's about the team's overall performance, not just Karel.

Does not mean you will use him, but he is factually better than Karel.

You're blowing this entire argument out of proportion so badly it's ridiculous. Nobody. Is. Saying. Karel. Will. Not. Be. Used. If. He. Is. Used. He. Will. Hurt. The. Team. Overall. Harken. Is. Very. Likely. To. Be. Used. On. Damn. Near. Every. Playthrough. Karel. Blocking. Out. Harken. Should. Not. Disqualify. Him. Automatically. But. It. Should. Fucking. Matter. Since. He. Is. Affecting. Another. Unit. In. A. Negative. Way.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

Most everybody in high tier doesn't affect the performance of another unit.

Using them = not using other units.

He's barely doing better than fine. Also, the matter is him blocking Harken out, not him being inferior to Harken.

So if a unit was slightly worse than Harken, they're automatically shitty for blocking out Harken?

He has, like, no good supports and his luck kinda stinks, so not really. Harken probably gets better avo since he has SOME supports.

Harken is irrelevant. Harken isn't even getting many supports on top of that, and on top of that Karel will have at least 60 evade which is quite decent.

And yet FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME I MYSELF HAVE STATED THAT BOTTOM WAS PUSHING IT A LITTLE

I still think going below the top of low is pushing it too.

Exactly. And Karel blocking out one of the best units in the game is hurting the team. It's about the team's overall performance, not just Karel.

It's not hurting the team if he wasn't even there for the 13 or so chapters before. You can't hurt the team unless you take something away; you're taking nothing away using Karel or Harken. You're adding to the team when they are used in some way, shape, or form.

You're blowing this entire argument out of proportion so badly it's ridiculous. Nobody. Is. Saying. Karel. Will. Not. Be. Used. If. He. Is. Used. He. Will. Hurt. The. Team. Overall. Harken. Is. Very. Likely. To. Be. Used. On. Damn. Near. Every. Playthrough. Karel. Blocking. Out. Harken. Should. Not. Disqualify. Him. Automatically. But. It. Should. Fucking. Matter. Since. He. Is. Affecting. Another. Unit. In. A. Negative. Way.

How the hell do you know he's very likely to be used? Once again, have you asked every single person who's ever played FE7?

It shouldn't even matter at all. It shouldn't be anywhere near a factor unless recruiting him kills Harken who was complete rapeage for the 13 chapters prior, which actually means he is affected your team who is presumptuously (key word, presumptuously - you don't know who's using what) using Harken.

I myself find it to be a bit centralizing to even recruit Harken in the first place because I tend to plow through chapters (due to paranoia about tactics rank). Which makes it so much easier to get Karel than Harken anyway.

I feel this is relevant. If you see what I'm arguing, you'll see why I disagree with parts of this list, and supposedly why Nagi's up above many of the lower tiers who FE3 Player says is below Nagi simply because the upper tiers outclass many of the units below who are probably more useful throughout the entire half of the game before her anyway. Half the game at worst, too.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Back to Nagi... I can't see her below high tier at all. Yes, she only comes for one chapter, but she does nothing but help your team and help you as a player. She even allows your units to gain more EXP by giving you a Gaiden chapter to go through.

The only valid argument I've seen, ever is that she shouldn't be above Lena. I do agree that Lena needs to be bumped up to high tier, so I think Lena needs to be bumped up instead of Nagi moved down.

How the hell do you know he's very likely to be used? Once again, have you asked every single person who's ever played FE7?

Because he's a better unit and higher on the tier list. Duh. Edited December 21, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

Back to Nagi... I can't see her below high tier at all. Yes, she only comes for one chapter, but she does nothing but help your team and help you as a player.

The fact that she only comes for one chapter should be proof enough that she does not deserve high tier. She does nothing but help your team but... so does Gotoh.

She even allows your units to gain more EXP by giving you a Gaiden chapter to go through.

No, Tiki's death allows you to do this. Nagi is irrelevant here.

Because he's a better unit and higher on the tier list. Duh.

No, that merely judges who's better. Stupid and redundant as it sounds, it's pretty true.

It has nothing to do with who is more likely to be used. A far more relevant method of finding that is polling every FE DS player who has ever owned the game and written down how often each character was used on every single playthrough ever. If you can't do that? Guess what, you can't judge who is most used or most likely to be used.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

The fact that she only comes for one chapter should be proof enough that she does not deserve high tier. She does nothing but help your team but... so does Gotoh.

Gotoh is only better if you're going to go through the chapter slowly. Gotoh's existence is not invisible, but Gotoh is indeed lower on the tier list because his effect is not as profound as Nagi's.

No, Tiki's death allows you to do this. Nagi is irrelevant here.

Tiki can be revived. It doesn't matter what form of logic you're using, you're getting more EXP, and you can still use Tiki.

[Lord Raven]

Gotoh is only better if you're going to go through the chapter slowly. Gotoh's existence is not invisible, but Gotoh is indeed lower on the tier list because his effect is not as profound as Nagi's.

Irrelevant. Gotoh does nothing but help your team. He doesn't waste a slot. He doesn't really require EXP. See where I'm going with this?

Unfortunately, I don't even agree with Gotoh being high tier. Top of lower mid maybe. Not high.

Tiki can be revived. It doesn't matter what form of logic you're using, you're getting more EXP, and you can still use Tiki.

It still has nothing to do with Nagi. She doesn't "give" you it, Tiki does. Which is irrelevant to Tiki, too.

[Rodykitty]

Irrelevant. Gotoh does nothing but help your team. He doesn't waste a slot. He doesn't really require EXP. See where I'm going with this?

Yes, but Nagi does the final chapter better, and getting her gives your team more EXP.

[Lord Raven]

Which tends to be irrelevant when you're warping her near Medeus anyway.

[Rodykitty]

True, I just remembered that you'll likely be warping 24x as well.

Still, Nagi is better, hands down.

[Lord Raven]

Nagi > Gotoh, I won't disagree.

Nagi > Upper mid? I will gladly disagree.

[Dat Nick]

So if a unit was slightly worse than Harken, they're automatically shitty for blocking out Harken?

It's not slightly worse, it's significantly worse.

And please for the love of shit stop ignoring me when I say that I MYSELF HAVE AGREED THAT BOTTOM WAS BEING TOO HARSH. I'm not saying that handicapping another unit should be instant bottom tier, but I AM SAYING THAT IGNORING IT ALTOGETHER IS FUCKING RETARDED BECAUSE IT AFFECTS THE TEAM AS A WHOLE.

Harken is irrelevant.

Harken is NOT irrelevant. Harken is the main reason why most people DON'T get Karel.

Harken isn't even getting many supports on top of that

Some supports>No supports

I still think going below the top of low is pushing it too.

Open for debate, but nowhere above Low mid.

How the hell do you know he's very likely to be used? Once again, have you asked every single person who's ever played FE7?

Because he's considered one of the best units in the game. This is almost as extreme as saying Titania doesn't have a high chance of being played, and that Est, Jeigan, Tomas and the like don't have a low chance of being played.

It shouldn't be anywhere near a factor unless recruiting him kills Harken who was complete rapeage for the 13 chapters prior, which actually means he is affected your team who is presumptuously (key word, presumptuously - you don't know who's using what) using Harken.

And using him means I CAN'T use Harken, who WOULD have been complete rapage for the next few chapters.

And of course, there are certian instances where this cancels out. The laguz royals are on about the same level of win. Alan and Samson, nobody gives a **** about losing the other one. Geitz and Wallace....same story.

[Rodykitty]

Nagi > Upper mid? I will gladly disagree.

I'm guessing because other units are available for most of the game?

Nagi is helping to do something that the upper mid characters wouldn't be able to do (you said yourself that max stat characters can't one round the fire dragon with a dragon slaying weapon). The top tier characters are doing a better job at what the upper mid characters are doing. The only character that I see an exception is Rena, and I already stated that she should likely be bumped up.

[dondon151]

Search? Or don't you have an account?

No, I don't. I'm not going to get one for the sole purpose of finding an FE7 tier list, either.