Rodykitty Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 (edited) Shiida is lower mid in a more recent tier list, though she's still easily obsoleted. EDIT: This is the more recent list on GameFAQs. I was expecting Beserker Blader to put this here, but he suddenly disappeared into nowhere. Top:Merric Sedgar Xane High: Wolf Frey Abel Cain Barst Marth Upper-Mid: Nabarl Hardin Ogma Darros Julian Nagi Catria Mid: Athena Lena Cord Vyland Caesar Palla Jake Beck Tiki Lower-Mid: Castor Matthis Radd Rickard Horace Minerva Bantu Shiida Draug Roger Gotoh Low: Wendell Jagen Wyrs Maria Boah Etzel Jeorge Dolph Ymir Linde Bottom: Gordin Elice Astram Samson Lorenz Roshea Arran Midia Macellan Norne Bord Tomas Fail: Est Looks like Nagi dropped into Lower Mid already, Ymir into Low (but above Elice), and Lena dropped into Mid for some reason. Edited December 28, 2008 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slax Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) Because "this is Normal Mode so he never dies". And obviously Excalibur. This is why he's better than every unit in the game? I'm not convinced I don't think he's *that* high personally (top tier for sure, because that tier is more appropriate for characters in a completely different league), but he's high because of his utility and growths as a Curate. He loses some Mag growth, but since he is able to get to 20/1 so quickly because of staves, his obscenely high level will offset it, and he'll still be able to use Excalibur after promotion, and gain Tome Levels doing so. If you make him a healer, you have no viable magic attackers. Granted, you don't *need* magic attackers in normal, but that's my reasoning for him being an inferior healer, because it strips you of your only (good) mage. If you keep him as a healer, he's a glass cannon, as all mages are, and will NEED healing, thus increasing the utility of Lena, and thus either bumping her higher or dropping merric lower. So again, I see no reason for him to be top. Copies your best unit, and you get to pick which for the situation. I personally think his availability hurts him too much to be that high, but w/e. He's that high for similar reasons as Ninian and Reyson. Well, if we're in agreement that he should be that high, then that's that. Because he is able to copy the best characters in that tier. Inferior copy with low HP, and only lasts a few turns. Should not be top tier. High, sure, but not top. Besides, he's basically an EXP hog, since any levels he gets are irrelevant, other than HP level ups. I'd say Warp + Hammerne + early staff utility puts her a lot higher than what she is, yeah. yeah, pretty much. Probably because Merric is so much better. She gets killed by a gust of wind, but is still in a decent thanks to her utility early game and Hammerne staff. I recently said that she needs to go up to High tier, right above Nagi. Her resistence as a bishop makes her a very good lategame aura+starlight tank user, the kind of mage who garnef will basically 0 damage hit, while being one of the best staff wielders due to her timing and hammerne, and she unlike merric, does not reduce your offensive mage amount if you use her as a healer. Either she should be up or merric lowered. Because he's pretty good as a Merc...though lots of units are. That's what I though, why make him a hero, when other units make much better heros, and if you don't make him a hero, he's not a good unit. Meh. Mercenary class fixes his speed issues for NM, and he gets awesome Defense growth as one. I suppose, but he's still not that good, and this also means you've lost your only hero slot, which really, according to "sedgar is god" logic should go to him (or wolf) I mean, sure he's ok, but not great, at least not enough to put him in the middle of high tier. Utility as a component in clearing the final chapter in a single turn without needing to be leveled up. I would agree she should be lower on NM, but apparently you can't kill a Mamkute in one round without critical hit with any other character besides Marth, who needs to fight Medeus to one turn the final chapter. She's definitely high tier on H5 mode.' That's incorrect, I did it with a paladin. Warp frey, warp marth, one turn kill. I don't agree with this either. From what I see, her Spd doesnt matter because in NM all your units kill anything, her Wing Spear doesn't matter because your units always one-round Cavs and Armors, but her low Str and Def matter because all of a sudden enemies have Atk and um? Yeah...not to mention forges exist to fix her issues (AS loss, low Str). I'd agree if this were an argument to get her from up-mid to mid, but not all the way to low. Her spear is useful, and makes up for her bad strength, her defence is compensated by movement, tactics will basically always save her, she's easy to train, takes up no slots and comes early. Meh. She freaking sucks, and you don't need her Wing Spear on NM. No, she doesn't, her only bad stat is hp. Strength is easily compensated by the wing spear (and its abundant durability), and no other stats are bad. You get her early, she has a god lance, she is a viable flier, there is no reason to put her that low. and by the way: "she sucks" isn't a reason, that's an opinion. @ new list, that new shiida position is pretty much where I expected her to be, ie: out of low. Everything else is basically the same, so I want to know why merric is top and lena is so low (everyone else I can *more or less* agree with) Well, anyway, I'm not asking to change the list, I just want the reasons behind it. So far are far from convincing. Edited for typos Edited December 28, 2008 by slax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) Inferior copy with low HP, and only lasts a few turns.Except he's not inferior (his stats become exactly the same), and his HP does not stay low for long, and even in the event you have to keep it low, he's copying a unit that's never going to take damage from the majority of the units in the game.And even against Mages, he can just copy a Bishop/Sage instead and become a Res tank for those chapters. No, she doesn't, her only bad stat is hp. Strength is easily compensated by the wing spear (and its abundant durability), and no other stats are bad.Bad HP is bad, and bad HP doesn't play nice with mediocre defense. Her wing spear helps her, but other units get weakness hitting weapons as well, and aren't reliant on those weapons.Sheeda is mostly early game utility. Edited December 28, 2008 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slax Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Except he's not inferior (his stats become exactly the same), and his HP does not stay low for long, and even in the event you have to keep it low, he's copying a unit that's never going to take damage from the majority of the units in the game.And even against Mages, he can just copy a Bishop/Sage instead and become a Res tank for those chapters. Inferior because 1- he only lasts a few turns, meaning he can't be used to rush or tank hordes (granted that there are very very few hordes in this game) 2- he munts the exp, unlike ninian or other bards, who give exp back to the unit they dance, he removes it from them, thus, if you do copy a good unit, you're going to halve that unit's growth speed if you use them both at the same time. Unless you've 20-20'ed your unit already, in which case there's no point using a tier list, since a 20-20 unit can basically solo 90% of this game on normal. 3- there are many one-off weapons (reagalia, swarm, pachyderm, excalibur for the most of the game, etc) -meaning that usually, outfitting him with good gear isn't as easy as outfitting just one unit. Not inferior because of stats, inferior because of the consequences of using him. Bad HP is bad, and bad HP doesn't play nice with mediocre defense. Her wing spear helps her, but other units get weakness hitting weapons as well, and aren't reliant on those weapons.Sheeda is mostly early game utility. Meh, if she's low-mid, that's good enough for me. I was only arguing that she's better than low, which is where the second list put her, so I'm fine with her new placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 1- he only lasts a few turns, meaning he can't be used to rush or tank hordes (granted that there are very very few hordes in this game)Considering the unit he's copying, I'm pretty sure he can tank hordes, and if it does run out, it should do so on the player turn, allowing him to re-copy and get healed.2- he munts the exp, unlike ninian or other bards, who give exp back to the unit they dance, he removes it from them, thus, if you do copy a good unit, you're going to halve that unit's growth speed if you use them both at the same time. Unless you've 20-20'ed your unit already, in which case there's no point using a tier list, since a 20-20 unit can basically solo 90% of this game on normal.News flash: Any other character is capable of stealing EXP when working as a team, and considering the unit he's copying, Sedgar will likely already be ready to complete the game by the time you actually get Chainey anyway due to ridiculous growths.3- there are many one-off weapons (reagalia, swarm, pachyderm, excalibur for the most of the game, etc) -meaning that usually, outfitting him with good gear isn't as easy as outfitting just one unit.He's not going to need any of this. He'll probably need a Hand Axe if he's copying Sedgar, or if he's going healer, some non-unique staves and a Thunder tome, and that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slax Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) Considering the unit he's copying, I'm pretty sure he can tank hordes, and if it does run out, it should do so on the player turn, allowing him to re-copy and get healed. I still beg to differ, take chapter 21, clash in Medon, if you're using Xane, you need to protect him, due to the constant threat of dragoons rushing. This means either healing (and thus being unable to heal anyone else, since apparently, Merric is the only staff user worth using) -meaning you're going to be unable to rush, especially due to ridersbanes, which make your cavalry dependant on healing. So you can't just handwave such flaws away, since they do exist, IF you abide by this tier list. -Now, there aren't many (any?) other hordes, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the flaw exists. News flash: Any other character is capable of stealing EXP when working as a team, and considering the unit he's copying, Sedgar will likely already be ready to complete the game by the time you actually get Chainey anyway due to ridiculous growths. lol, trying to be sarcastic 'ey? Well If you're going to do that you should come up with a correct comment to back it up, because no other units can steal exp like Xane can, if any unit grabs experience, no matter how bad their growths, they will grow, xane will not, unless you're keeping him untransformed, which is obviously not how he gets his tier placement. He's not going to need any of this. He'll probably need a Hand Axe if he's copying Sedgar, or if he's going healer, some non-unique staves and a Thunder tome, and that's about it. Yeah, probably, but the point exists that its a flaw. I was simply proving that he is inferior, not that he's actually bad. think of it this way: Xane is the third best unit in the game, meaning that according to this list, with only Merric, Sedgar, Marth (compulsory) and Xane, you can win the game. Notwithstanding that Merric is overplaced, high, using Xane would, unless you've got a non-high tier unit, slow you down compared to just using the other two. -this is due to him healer hogging, or requiring you to move slower. That is UNLESS you use, say, lena, or Frey, or Wolf, etc. -meaning they should move up (above him), because he's dependent on them, not the other way around. (I'm only arguing Xane should move down one or two spots here, not alot) Though the biggest issue I have is still Merric, there's no way merric can solo levels like this list implies he can. No matter how good a mage is in this game, they cannot take a hit, and MUST have support from other healers or cavalry, hence those other support units must be close to or higher than merric's position on the list, not rungs below him. And why is cain below abel, cain has better averages than abel. That one's a straight out swap. Edited December 28, 2008 by slax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) I still beg to differ, take chapter 21, clash in Medon, if you're using Xane, you need to protect him, due to the constant threat of dragoonsHe's copying a unit with so much defense that even without healing him he's barely going to take damage.And like pointed out earlier in the thread, if you transform him first turn, that is the turn which your healer won't have anyone to heal anyway. lol, trying to be sarcastic 'ey?No.Yeah, probably, but the point exists that its a flaw. I was simply proving that he is inferior, not that he's actually bad.The two other characters he shares the tier with have flaws too.because no other units can steal exp like Xane can, if any unit grabs experience, no matter how bad their growths, they will grow, xane will not, unless you're keeping him untransformed, which is obviously not how he gets his tier placement.It is the player's responsibility to get other units trained, and if you're trying to play in the most efficient manner, you'll need other units anyway. Chainey does not have to be trained at all, which should be an advantage, not a disadvantage. All of the effort put into training one unit becomes two units, effectively doubling the EXP worth of Sedgar or whatever unit you decide to transform him into.think of it this way: Xane is the third best unit in the game, meaning that according to this list, with only Merric, Sedgar, Marth (compulsory) and Xane, you can win the game.Tier list shows who is most useful overall, not who is required to beat the game.Though the biggest issue I have is still Merric, there's no way merric can solo levels like this list implies he can. No matter how good a mage is in this game, they cannot take a hitActually, Merric can take a hit, which is why Beserker Blader put him so high. That, and he can hit 20/0 before most units in the game. I would say he isn't broken enough to be in that tier, but now that it's renamed top tier, he deserves that spot, especially because staves give such valuable utility value, especially in a game that doesn't have rescuing. Edited December 28, 2008 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeldafreak007 Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Is it really that hard for you believe something, or are you really just an ignorant shitbomb? Just answer the question without beating around the fucking bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ϲharlie Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Is it really that hard for you believe something, or are you really just an ignorant shitbomb?Just answer the question without beating around the fucking bush. I'm not even sure who this is supposed to be directed at, but calling someone an "ignorant shitbomb" over a damn video game is immature and qualifies as flaming. Enjoy your shiny new warning. Come on folks. This is a video game. Discuss it without resorting to hostility and name calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamNW Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Athena requires you to have eleven people dead to get her. Problem is, more then eleven of the people you get before her are above or in her tier. Shouldn't she be bottom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Athena requires you to have eleven people dead to get her. Problem is, more then eleven of the people you get before her are above or in her tier.Shouldn't she be bottom? This is an awesome point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) Considering my argument earlier, I can't disagree. Same applying to many other characters like Etzel, Ymir, and Horace (and someone else). Not even the fact that they're higher in the tier list, it's the fact that you have to have most of your team killed to get Athena in the first place. But the argument for stuff like Etzel and Ymir and Horace could consist of the fact that units that are guaranteed to be unused (not listing names, considering how the average chapter requires 10-15 characters and you could kill off enough characters you aren't using while reaching the limit per chapter) could end up killing off anyway... and Athena requires you kill off many units that you have on your team at that moment. If you understand what I'm saying? GordinElice Astram Samson Lorenz Roshea Arran Midia Macellan Norne Bord Tomas ... it bothers me so much to see Bord below stuff like Norn, Arran, Lorenz, Samson, Gordin, and Astram. Edited December 28, 2008 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamNW Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Shouldn't Norn be all the way at the bottom for not existing either? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 meaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 No. Norne can actually exist, because this is the NM tier list. Unlike Athena, she's only blocking out two units (though apparently Gordin is better since he has better strength). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamNW Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) If both Jagen and Gordin are higher then she is, she doesn't deserve to exist. See: Karla. Edited December 28, 2008 by Sety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) Which is why she's so low. Well, it's actually because she's apparently not as useful as either. I never really used her so I don't know for sure. Edited December 28, 2008 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamNW Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) I always preferred Norne to Gordin, but I'm not here to debate that. The way I see it: -Gordin is sacrificed -Everyone else lives because none of them are worse the Norn -Norn no longer exists -Norn is instant bottom tier I haven't played this game for shit other then the first six chapters, so I have no clue who Tomas is, but unless he's one of the Gaiden units, Norn should be below him because he exists. Edited December 28, 2008 by Sety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Blocking out not just one, but two characters is indeed a great way to get hurt on a tier list, but it doesn't automatically mean auto-bottom tier since there is still a scenerio where she can contribute, even if it is not the better scenario, thus a lower spot on the tier list than Jeigan/Gordin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamNW Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 I don't think any FE tier list that doesn't assume the best scenario is a valid tier list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) I don't think any FE tier list that doesn't assume the best scenario is a valid tier list.Then we may as well cut off half the tier list, since those units aren't going to be used anyway.The tier list isn't assmuing anything on the player's part. It IS saying that Gordin and Jeigan is the better option, so I don't see how this should displease you. Edited December 28, 2008 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamNW Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Accuracy > Not I would be pleased if there was a "Nonexistant" tier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Non-existant tier: Ike Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamNW Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 I lol'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) Norne requires two chars dead by the time you finish the prologue, not necessarily Gordin/Jagen both sacrificed. At any rate, she should be penalized for requiring two characters to be dead on top of her poor performance... which is definitely Bottom tier. I'd place her around Est's level >_> Bord's being below her really does irk me. Bord's status at the worst of the worst irks me as a whole. Edited December 28, 2008 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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