So...let's talk tiers.

[Clonez]

Wow can we actually make a HM list? Who cares about NM...?

[Rodykitty]

"slax" ;P -and this game in NM is a billion times easier than FE7. Your average unit CAN solo maps, I've done it, multiple times, its not hard at all.

Fine, but the tier list was never judged on how well characters can solo maps. It was judged on how useful units are in relation to each other.

All I'm saying is that Merric is a support unit, he acts as backup to the cavaliers that do all the actual work. Healers can only heal if there's an injured unit, which is the cavaliers, horsemen, etc. Mages can't survive more than a few hits, so the other units must help him to attack. He is support, so the other units that he is supporting should go above him.

And then he promotes and suddenly he can attack. You're also underestimating Maric's ability to survive. Nobody's saying to make him tank, but at the same time, the extra durability means that you can actually use him as a more flexible unit that attacks more often with less risk.

No, assuming sedgar gets, say, 100 exp per level, then assuming you equally use sedgar and Xane, he gets only 50 exp per level. That means you've halved his growth speed -the only time Xane doesn't steal his exp is when the other unit's not earning any, ie: at 20 (0exp/2 =0exp).

By the time you get Chainey, Sedgar probably doesn't even need to be leveled up anymore. I never ever said that Chainey should be leveled up, he is clearly a utility unit, not a unit you pour EXP into.

He changes class too slowly for that to be a real advantage. Unlike ninian, who can swap who she dances on every turn, Xane cannot for several.

Uhh... This is on a by chapter basis. Actually, Chainey's not around for Ch. 15, but he is for Chapter 23, where it would be better for him to become a Res tank instead.

But for the most part, he's much better off sticking as a single class throughout the chapter.

Merric needs to support units, not take on maps by himself, thus the units he supports should be above him.

The fact that Staves are so significant in this game make his support abilities valuable, and the fact that you're completely ignoring the Sage class which he gets by the time you recruit Linda is also a factor.

[Lord Raven]

Actually, if you tier everyone without considering unit costs, then (and only then) factor in unit costs, it makes for a tier list. I mean, it's not like FE10 was much better.

FE10 was a LOT better, are you kidding?

I don't know if it's this, or if it's because I would rather have you two bicker over it.

Seriously though.

Units can change class now. They can basically change their stats and growths this way, although their base growths and stats are still a factor. So you can make basically anyone a healer, mage, cavalier, or mercenary (of course, depending on which of the two cycles they're in).

You also have to factor in how the gaiden units, while quite decent in performance, only allow you 14 characters. So you have to basically kill off half your units in order to get Horace, about a quarter of your army for Athena, and like 2/3 of your army for Ymir.

The variability in each unit on top of the massive opportunity costs make it worse than a game that jumps around a lot. FE4 Generation 2 Tier List is probably a better comparison than FE10.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Wait. Am I getting serious responses to that statement? About how hard it is to make FEDS' tier list at that?

I wasn't trying to make a point, I was just saying that I wasn't going to jump into an argument you guys were already having.

[slax]

Fine, but the tier list was never judged on how well characters can solo maps. It was judged on how useful units are in relation to each other.

And since Merric and Xane have to run support roles to other units, there is no reason for them to be ahead of the others on the list, it just doesn't make sense.

What's the better item in the game, an Iron sword or an infinite durability vulnerary that can only be used when an iron sword is equipped? -one may be very very good, but without the other, is useless, thus, when putting the two on a list of usefulness, the Iron sword must be higher, because it must be used in conjunction with the vulnerary, meaning that no matter what, the iron sword is going to HAVE to be used equal or more, more use = more usefulness, by definition. So, by definition, Merric must not be used as much as the units he is supporting, and is therefore not as useful as them, and therefore should be lower on the tier list.

And then he promotes and suddenly he can attack. You're also underestimating Maric's ability to survive. Nobody's saying to make him tank, but at the same time, the extra durability means that you can actually use him as a more flexible unit that attacks more often with less risk.

So? Frey can as well, but he can do it earlier, so why is Merric below him? I mean honestly, a staff user won't gain that many levels, unless you're babying him, in which case you can easily argue Frey or Cain can be babied just as well, especially in the prologue chapters, it's reasonable to have a level 10+ Frey and Cain by the same time you can promote, except Cain and Frey are actually clearing maps, Merric isn't. -Obviously Frey and Cain are more useful.

By the time you get Chainey, Sedgar probably doesn't even need to be leveled up anymore. I never ever said that Chainey should be leveled up, he is clearly a utility unit, not a unit you pour EXP into.

How many times do I need to say it, I'm not saying Xane is a bad unit, just not as good. You said he wasn't inferior, I showed how he is, that's all. You can assume Sedgar is already overpowered, but that doesn't detract the fact that what I said is indeed true, and Xane is indeed inferior. Just because you don't need to pour EXP into him, doesn't mean Xane slows down the rate of EXP growth, so this argument is a straw man, ie: irrelevant.

Uhh... This is on a by chapter basis. Actually, Chainey's not around for Ch. 15, but he is for Chapter 23, where it would be better for him to become a Res tank instead.

You could've just said that.

But for the most part, he's much better off sticking as a single class throughout the chapter.

Thanks for the tip? *shrugs*

The fact that Staves are so significant in this game make his support abilities valuable, and the fact that you're completely ignoring the Sage class which he gets by the time you recruit Linda is also a factor.

False choice fallacies are good and all, but in the end, fallacies are the tool of someone who can't use logic to win. Refrain from using them please. I didn't ignore his sage class anymore than I ignored the fact he came with excalibur, it's true, he becomes a sage earlier than anyone else. Linde is unusable because she comes too late and low, even though she's got better growths than Merric, I know this. I also know lena is less durable than him. None of those facts I've brought up because I thought they were too obvious to mention. The fact is that even as a sage, Merric is not durable, sure he won't die one hit, but he's still a glass cannon (unless you're going up against mages, but that's the exception, not the rule), and he will need support, since he is useless in groups, and the only way to thin groups is to use other strong units, like Frey, Sedgar, Cain, etc. -therefore, those units will be used more than Merric will, therefore, are more useful than Merric, therefore should be above Merric.

But if you want my honest opinion, we should skip the NM list and go straight to HM, since, really, NM can be cleared with any team.

[Mekkah]

What's the better item in the game, an Iron sword or an infinite durability vulnerary that can only be used when an iron sword is equipped? -one may be very very good, but without the other, is useless, thus, when putting the two on a list of usefulness, the Iron sword must be higher, because it must be used in conjunction with the vulnerary, meaning that no matter what, the iron sword is going to HAVE to be used equal or more, more use = more usefulness, by definition. So, by definition, Merric must not be used as much as the units he is supporting, and is therefore not as useful as them, and therefore should be lower on the tier list.

"Without Sheeda, you cannot recruit Castor and Jake, therefore Sheeda > Castor and Jake"

But if you want my honest opinion, we should skip the NM list and go straight to HM, since, really, NM can be cleared with any team.

Sacred Stones can be cleared with any team too.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Mekkah

[Sek]

"Without Sheeda, you cannot recruit Castor and Jake, therefore Sheeda > Castor and Jake"

Sacred Stones can be cleared with any team too.

Seems logical enough.

Without Marth, you cannot seize thrones, therefore Marth>everyone?

[Lord Raven]

the only time Xane doesn't steal his exp is when the other unit's not earning any, ie: at 20 (0exp/2 =0exp).

Actually I had Xane transform into Wolf once and he still gained EXP. Wolf was at Level 20.

[Rodykitty]

So? Frey can as well, but he can do it earlier, so why is Merric below him?

The whole point of Merric being as high as that is because he'll need less support while supporting your army.

Healers and Clerics are not mutually exclusive. They depend on each other. Merric skews this by actually being able to take a hit thanks to decent HP and Defense that actually grows and not needing the rest of his army wall around him all the time. This means that he can support your army that much better while they do what they're supposed to be doing.

It is the same reason I wanted Wendell in Upper Tier in H5 mode, because of sheer flexibility and ability to survive.

I'm not saying Xane is a bad unit, just not as good.

And this is why the tier list isn't saying Sedgar=Xane. It's showing him as two places lower. I do claim that his inferior aspects are not major enough to warrant a tier change.

I mean honestly, a staff user won't gain that many levels, unless you're babying him

Healers gain a ton of EXP in this game. Just make sure he heals every turn and you'll find him ahead in levels of every one of your units.

The fact is that even as a sage, Merric is not durable, sure he won't die one hit, but he's still a glass cannon

Being able to get hit means that Merric is much more flexible tactically. He could actually be used to draw an enemy and get it killed for free. And this is NM, so his survivability will be much more than that of H5 mode due to enemies carrying iron and steel for most of the game. Edited December 29, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Sylvan]

The whole point of Merric being as high as that is because he'll need less support while supporting your army.

If this is the case, shouldn't Tiki be god tier?

You can warp bantu to tiki and get her (if bantu isn't strong enough). Then go after the thief with the starsphere. (who will try to escape very close to tiki, making this easy to do.) Then she can clear the entire game by herself. You won't need to kill gharnef (Gharnef won't be able to touch her), get falchion or even use support units. Unlike normal tanks (Generals etc) her RES is just as high as her DEF. With her infinite durability, she RAPES.

She needs no support. She only needs an item that you'll normally get 99% of the time. She is insanely easy to use and easy to level.

Merric and others at least have weaknesses, mages vs normal troops can't survive, normal troops vs mages can't survive.

Sure, it takes a little bit of favouritism, but no more than using merric over a female mage (choosing Excalibur over Aura is akin to choosing the divine stone over falchion. Both do the same job, but used by different peeps.)

[slax]

"Without Sheeda, you cannot recruit Castor and Jake, therefore Sheeda > Castor and Jake"

Yes, because if you take her off your team after recruiting him, Jake suddenly becomes unusable?

Sacred Stones can be cleared with any team too.

Does SS have a hard mode?

Seems logical enough.

Without Marth, you cannot seize thrones, therefore Marth>everyone?

No, because if marth dies, you lose the game, hence marth must be protected, hence marth relies on other people for much of the chapter right up until he captures the throne. (unless he's, like, hector or ike, who rapes, in which case he would be top tier) -Just because he's on your team, doesn't mean he'll actually be doing the work. It's quite possible to just have marth sit there, clear the map, walk him to the throne and seize it, which is only 1 action out of many many turns.

Actually I had Xane transform into Wolf once and he still gained EXP. Wolf was at Level 20.

Except that Xane loses all his stat growths when he transforms. The only relevant one is HP, hence that EXP that Xane got was, realistically, gone.

The whole point of Merric being as high as that is because he'll need less support while supporting your army.

Healers and Clerics are not mutually exclusive. They depend on each other. Merric skews this by actually being able to take a hit thanks to decent HP and Defense that actually grows and not needing the rest of his army wall around him all the time. This means that he can support your army that much better while they do what they're supposed to be doing.

But then why is "the army" below Merric? That's all I want to know. If merric makes your army preform better, then why is the army less useful than Merric? That's like saying a shoes are more useful than feet. You can have an army without Merric, and it's still an army, you can have an army with merric and it's a better army, but you can't have merric without an army, so how on earth does that make merric more useful than the army? (the army being the three cavaliers sedgar and wolf)

It is the same reason I wanted Wendell in Upper Tier in H5 mode, because of sheer flexibility and ability to survive.

Come on, he has, what, 7 def and <50 hp. He'll take like one hit. Sure, that's more than the other mages, but it's hardly enough to make him more useful than Frey, who can actually tank an army.

And this is why the tier list isn't saying Sedgar=Xane. It's showing him as two places lower. I do claim that his inferior aspects are not major enough to warrant a tier change.

Top:

Merric

Sedgar

Xane

odd... Could've sworn two positions lower is basically exactly where I wan Xane put.

Healers gain a ton of EXP in this game. Just make sure he heals every turn and you'll find him ahead in levels of every one of your units.

Sure, but that still doesn't make him more useful than the units who are getting hurt, and dealing damage, while he's doing nothing, gaining levels. Assuming the average chapter takes 20 turns, assuming you heal every turn bar the first and last (last you don't need full HP, save durability, first you've taken no damage, and 18 divides into 3 easier) Assume he gains a level every 3 heals, that's on average, 6 levels a map. To make him a healer you start using him at map 5, that'll take him to level 10 before you can even start attacking with him. And that's a very fast set of assumptions, bordering on babying. So, in the meantime you've had frey for 14 levels, assuming he gets one per level (a very slow assumption give the amount of attacking he's going to be doing to get him hurt), making him level 15. that's barely 5 levels improvement for the cost of 0 magical attack. That's really not much improvement.

Being able to get hit means that Merric is much more flexible tactically. He could actually be used to draw an enemy and get it killed for free. And this is NM, so his survivability will be much more than that of H5 mode due to enemies carrying iron and steel for most of the game.

Yes, he could be used to draw in one single enemy and kill that one enemy, if you use proper tactics. In the meantime, Frey, Sedgar, Wolf, Cain, and Abel have rushed forward and crushed the enemy horde. Sure, that makes merric more useful than them?

[dondon151]

Except that Xane loses all his stat growths when he transforms. The only relevant one is HP, hence that EXP that Xane got was, realistically, gone.

Does it matter if Chainy gains EXP and stat-ups when it takes him one turn to get uber stats?

So are you implying that it's better to give the EXP that Chainy earns to another (inferior) unit while eschewing Chainy, who is essentially a copy of your best unit with a few minor drawbacks?

[Rodykitty]

Does SS have a hard mode?

This is the NM tier list. His comparison is valid.

Come on, he has, what, 7 def and <50 hp. He'll take like one hit.

He's fast enough to not be taking two during the early game, then after that he can be brushed aside in favor of a Sage that's more suitable for the late game.

Sure, but that still doesn't make him more useful than the units who are getting hurt, and dealing damage, while he's doing nothing, gaining levels.

Keeping the units you deem most valuable alive is considered doing nothing now?

Not to mention that using vulneraries takes up a turn and heals for pitiful amounts, and there's rarely any time to sit on forts when a tier list is based on not wasting your time.

But then why is "the army" below Merric?

The tier list is about the usefulness of units on an individual basis. While you can have an army without a healer, this is not what the tier list is about.

Yes, he could be used to draw in one single enemy and kill that one enemy, if you use proper tactics. In the meantime, Frey, Sedgar, Wolf, Cain, and Abel have rushed forward and crushed the enemy horde. Sure, that makes merric more useful than them?

Except that Merric is part of the group of units that are rushing, and is making the work easier on them. He may not be on the front lines, but he could possibly take a hit from a closer enemy while the front line groups fight the more far back enemies.

Except that Xane loses all his stat growths when he transforms. The only relevant one is HP, hence that EXP that Xane got was, realistically, gone.

What the above poster said.

Also, I repeat once again. Chainey does NOT need to be leveled up. This is a positive, not a negative, because you never have to set aside units that others could kill to level him up, ever (which actually means that others are still leveling up), and instead keeping him to actually using him for tactical purposes.

Edited December 30, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Sylvan]

The tier list is about the usefulness of units on an individual basis. While you can have an army without a healer, this is not what the tier list is about.

Then why is Nagi so far above Tiki? Nagi blocks you getting swarm, fortify, thoron, good falchion, recover, and an extra A staff user, which is important for the warp-rush to kill the final boss.

Tiki with lightsphere, even for a very short while, can be better than Nagi. And doesn't have the inherit blocking ability that Nagi comes with.

Why isn't Marth 4th, because he is basically a thief + an attacker in one unit. Which makes him have more usefulness than most standard attackers, plus he is the only character which can visit villages, making him necessary to rush forward and get to villages before thieves. In terms of usefulness, marth for god tier. Especially in NM because of the extra levels in the prologue, and the weaker enemies improve his effectiveness.

[Rodykitty]

Then why is Nagi so far above Tiki? Nagi blocks you getting swarm, fortify, thoron, good falchion, recover, and an extra A staff user, which is important for the warp-rush to kill the final boss.

Nagi doesn't block you from getting good Falchion. Nagi isn't even blocking you from having Tiki. Heck, Gotoh is the only thing she blocks, so she's not like the other Gaiden characters that block out large amounts of characters. It's another Harken/Karel situation.

Edited December 30, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Nagi is better than Gotoh for the 1 turn strategy. Gotoh's just another warp staff user which can be easily replaced with a base Boah or any1 who has easy access to C rank on staves.

[Sylvan]

To get Nagi you have to kill at least Tiki. Which means, if you want her back, you've wasted Aum.

Gatoh isn't necessary as a warp user. No more than Merric is necessary as a healer. It's just heck of a lot easier one way. Gatoh can be replaced by another user, but Nagi can be replaced by Tiki. Nagi has a lot of costs involved.

Just like Merric is a useful unit because he can take a hit, Gatoh is useful just because he comes in at exactly the right time you need him. That mission is hard. Warp makes it really easy. But you need more than one C class staff user. Which, there aren't many of.

EDIT: edit in italics

Edited December 30, 2008 by Sylvan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

To get Nagi you have to kill at least Tiki. Which means, if you want her back, you've wasted Aum.

Gatoh isn't necessary as a warp user. No more than Merric is necessary as a healer. It's just heck of a lot easier one way. Gatoh can be replaced by another user, but Nagi can be replaced by Tiki. Nagi has a lot of costs involved.

Just like Merric is a useful unit because he can take a hit, Gatoh is useful just because he comes in at exactly the right time you need him. That mission is hard. Warp makes it really easy. But you need more than one C class staff user. Which, there aren't many of.

EDIT: edit in italics

Wasted Aum? 2 Manaketes in the final chapter for those that are doing the 1 turn strategy is THE BEST thing that Aum staff is good for.

Gatoh is better for the traditional way, Nagi is better for the 1 turn strategy. Simple as that. Nagi can replace Falchion so you don't EVER have to level up Marth. Those costs are hardly a cause for worry.

Getting a C rank staff user is pathetically easy. You can have Etzel get it in no time at all and the same goes for any Class A or Female promoted unit.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Warp makes it really easy. But you need more than one C class staff user. Which, there aren't many of.

Rena, Boah, Ellis, and you can probably pull off having a Sage having a C in staves by then.

And if you're concerned about keeping Nagi alive, then just use her to kill the Mamkute in front of Medeus, warp someone over to a save point, save your game, then start resetting until Marth critical hits.

[Sylvan]

Nagi uses up Aum and sacrifices Swarm. Which is arguably invaluable in multi-player. But I shouldn't go there. So i'm biased against her. Tiki and Marth should be enough to take down the boss. If you really want to guarantee the win, just give marth the speedwings. 25 speed will dual the boss to instant death. Any other unit can take down then much weaker manakete in front of the boss with a wyrmslayer.

But really, my point wasn't about Nagi vs Tiki or Gatoh, it was about usefulness. Nagi was one point, Tiki+ lighsphere another, marth the third. I can probably come up with more. But the "usefulness" of each character on the list doesn't seem to be compared to each other character on the list, it seems to rate each character's usefulness in one particular style of play. Tiki is able to clear the whole game by herself from chapter 18. IMO, that's more useful than anyone else.

EDIT:

Another one, why is Julian in upper mid, he has no combat ability. None. Marth can do the job for him, and you have an endless supply of keys from the online shop (which Marth can access from the convoy)

Edited December 30, 2008 by Sylvan

[Rodykitty]

Nagi uses up Aum and sacrifices Swarm. Which is arguably invaluable in multi-player.

This isn't a multi-player tier list.

Tiki is able to clear the whole game by herself from chapter 18. IMO, that's more useful than anyone else.

This is NM. A large portion of the cast can do that.

Besides, Tiki is already mid tier, and Nagi just a tier above her. I don't see why you shouldn't be satisfied at all. Nagi is clearly the better unit, and Tiki is still a decent unit, but requiring leveling up.

[Sylvan]

This is NM. A large portion of the cast can do that.

No. They can't. You underestimating NM. Show me 1 character that can solo the entire game past mission 18. I did it with Tiki. So i know it's possible (and quite easy). Try clearing Camus the Sable with 1 character. Then try clearing Dark Pontifex with the same character. Only that 1 character. No support units. You'll have a hard time. You have to beat a swarth of strong physical troops, then a swarth of strong magic users, nigh on no characters can do that. Tiki can.

Besides, Tiki is already mid tier, and Nagi just a tier above her. I don't see why you shouldn't be satisfied at all. Nagi is clearly the better unit, and Tiki is still a decent unit, but requiring leveling up.

My other points. Usefulness. You say merric is useful as a healer in the early game. Well I say finishing the game at chapter 18 is better.

[Rodykitty]

Show me 1 character that can solo the entire game past mission 18.

[Sylvan]

lol. Mages.

[Rodykitty]

Lol, Pure Waters.