So...let's talk tiers.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wait I don't get it, you didn't want Karel penalized for blocking out Harken (a very good unit) and Ymir to move up despite the fact that you have to kill all but 14 units you get by then but now you wanna penalize Norne because you have to kill just 2 units when you've got 2 horrible ones ripe for the picking? WTF?

Individually, Norne >>> Gordin and killing Jagen is hardly a cause for penalty since his best performance is during the first chapters and using him then means taking earlygame EXP which is the most necessary.

Killing Gordin means you skip that stupid decoy scene and you'll have the 3 Altean cavaliers and Jagen who's not gonna get use in the first few chapters if you want your best units to get EXP and becomes obsolete quite early.

Not killing Gordin means that stupid decoy scene will happen and Jagen's your decoy, you've got Gordin and the Altean cavaliers. Now, since Norne >>>> Gordin, why should having to kill Gordin at this point be a penalty? You're basically trading a pathetic unit to get a slightly better one.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Levin

[Lord Raven]

Wait I don't get it, you didn't want Karel penalized for blocking out Harken (a very good unit) and Ymir to move up despite the fact that you have to kill all but 14 units you get him by then but now you wanna penalize Norne because you have to kill just 2 units when you've got 2 horrible ones ripe for the picking? WTF?

I'm actually not sure at all what my thoughts are. I didn't think of the Ymir thing for a while, but my main thought FOR Ymir is; there are enough units at that point for you to kill enough so that you can still keep your team intact and get rid of the trash. Yet, this is still taking away from units you're able to use so that's where the logic becomes double standard/self contradictory.

I'd actually penalize all of the Gaiden goers and Norne, as a result.

Individually, Norne >>> Gordin and killing Jagen is hardly a cause for penalty since his best performance is during the first chapters and using him then means taking earlygame EXP which is the most necessary.

He doesn't take much damage, you can easily unequip him, and you can make him a Swordmaster and he will potentially help baby your other units for the sake of utility. But he fails past... well, basically throughout the entire game, but he's still more useful than Norne.

Gordin is just as much taking a slot away from Norne as Frey, Cain, Abel, and Jagen are. You could easily penalize the six characters for taking a slot away from two others... but Frey, Cain, and Abel's high spot won't even be affected that much for it. Jagen, Gordin, and Norne have the potential to go lower, but not that much either... I would place Norne with Gordin myself, at any rate. :/

(I believe Harken and Karel should have a mutual penalty for taking away slots from each other).

Edited December 28, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

IIRC the reason Gordin was moved up over Norne was for none of these reasons.

By the way, I actually think I like Gordin better than Norne. Norne wins str by ONE point at it's peak lead, not to mention the Captain gets an ever so slight level lead due to being recruited in the middle of P4, not to mention he DOESN'T get raped by the steel bow. Norn starts doubling sooner so she's probably better pre promotion, but Gordin's a LOT better than her post-promotion due to the fact he can one round everything AND double as a wall...factoring that in with his level edge in the prologue, and I gotta give it to the Captain. Hell, Gordin's probably the best unit in bottom tier.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Gordin... doubling? The guy has 6.8 STR and 7.15 SPD at level 10. His STR lead on Norne is just by 1 and that ends at level 20/2.

Norne reaches that speed at just level 5 and 5 STR. She's doubling earlier than he is. Doesn't that more than make up for Gordin's 1 STR lead?

Only thing Gordin's got on Norne is a VERY SLIGHT durability lead.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Well, he's still in bottom tier...

I'm willing to believe Gordin is slightly better... But Norne probably got moved too low as a reactionary movement. ATTN: Beserker Blader: Did you intend to move her down this much?

Edited December 28, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm actually not sure at all what my thoughts are. I didn't think of the Ymir thing for a while, but my main thought FOR Ymir is; there are enough units at that point for you to kill enough so that you can still keep your team intact and get rid of the trash. Yet, this is still taking away from units you're able to use so that's where the logic becomes double standard/self contradictory.

I'd actually penalize all of the Gaiden goers and Norne, as a result.

He doesn't take much damage, you can easily unequip him, and you can make him a Swordmaster and he will potentially help baby your other units for the sake of utility. But he fails past... well, basically throughout the entire game, but he's still more useful than Norne.

Gordin is just as much taking a slot away from Norne as Frey, Cain, Abel, and Jagen are. You could easily penalize the six characters for taking a slot away from two others... but Frey, Cain, and Abel's high spot won't even be affected that much for it. Jagen, Gordin, and Norne have the potential to go lower, but not that much either... I would place Norne with Gordin myself, at any rate. :/

Actually, wouldn't it be harder for you to choose what units to kill off for chapter 20x since you've got more units to choose for this one than with the previous gaidens? I figure it's easier for you to decide what units you want dead for chapter 6x since you've got less to chose from and you're not giving up much utility.

Um... no, in NM, you won't need Jagen to help "baby" your units and hell, having him lure enemies unequipped is slower than just placing some1 to lure AND counter-attack. The latter provides EXP for the counter-attacker, reduces the number of attacks necessary to kill the lured enemy (which gives you another attack against a nearby enemy if there's any) and overall it's faster and more efficient.

Valid I guess... except Norne >>> Gordin so if you're going by that logic, Gordin and Norne get the same penalty and the one that ends up above the other on the list is the one that individually performs better.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

The reason I haven't penalized Ymir for blocking out units is because he comes late enough for said units to be used before getting killed off at the last moment.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The reason I haven't penalized Ymir for blocking out units is because he comes late enough for said units to be used before getting killed off at the last moment.

I'd penalize him more than the other Gaiden characters. Though, my point may not be valid since it's mostly because I figure that by then, you have your team set for the endgame and if you didn't go to chapter 20x, you'd have room for more utility units.

[Zeldafreak007]

I'm not even sure who this is supposed to be directed at, but calling someone an "ignorant shitbomb" over a damn video game is immature and qualifies as flaming. Enjoy your shiny new warning.

Come on folks. This is a video game. Discuss it without resorting to hostility and name calling.

I apologize, I was just pissed at the moment.

[Rodykitty]

This is going to be a confusing debate, I'm sure of it. I'm not really sure what to think right now.

[slax]

He's copying a unit with so much defense that even without healing him he's barely going to take damage.

And like pointed out earlier in the thread, if you transform him first turn, that is the turn which your healer won't have anyone to heal anyway.

You shouldn't be able to 3-turn rush that level no matter how good sedgar is. Not unless you're using super amazing tactics McWin, in which case tiers mean nothing, because you'd then be judging the player, not the characters. And moreover, if you first-turn transofrom, you lose movement, thus reducing your ability to rush, thus he will have to transform at least once more, thus the flaw is relevant. What class sedgar are you referring to anyway, since there are tons of ridersbanes floating around that map (and as a hero, you have to reduce Darros, since he would use up the slot otherwise)

No.

The two other characters he shares the tier with have flaws too.

And Xane picks all of them up as well, but adds to them his own flaws, thus making him and inferior copy, which is all I said. I mean didn't I just say I'm arguing why he's inferior not why he's bad?

one[/i] unit becomes two units, effectively doubling the EXP worth of Sedgar or whatever unit you decide to transform him into.

Only if you've already 20'ed sedgar, and aren't using anyone else, which again, is valuing the player, not the character, so is irrelevant to tier lists. -I may as well say "arena abuse marth on level 4 and warp+rapier the entire game" -Marth for god tier. Xane kills exp growth- sure you get more use out of the strong units, I can understand that, and I can understand why he's high, but he has flaws that should put him below, say, wolf, who's an actually useful unit for the whole game, while Xane isn't.

Tier list shows who is most useful overall, not who is required to beat the game.

Actually, Merric can take a hit, which is why Beserker Blader put him so high. That, and he can hit 20/0 before most units in the game. I would say he isn't broken enough to be in that tier, but now that it's renamed top tier, he deserves that spot, especially because staves give such valuable utility value, especially in a game that doesn't have rescuing.

So merric is more useful than any other unit in the game? Bar none. I still don't see why. I mean, sure his HP growth means he can take one hit, but really, he's dependant on healing or standard troops to cover him, meaning that he's a support to them not the other way 'round. Because that's what this list says.

This is what I'm reading out of this list: "If you had to pick any unit to help marth in any given level, it should be Merric, since he is the most useful". -I disagree with this. Merric is good, but:

1- the cost of using him as a healer is to remove all your offensive magics. (as he's the only viable one, according to this list)

2- the need for support units, since he should die after more than one hit without healing, unless some superfluke happens.

So basically, what I'm saying is that this list is contradictory, if you have merric high as a healer, you should have to value support units more, according to his supplementary nature. If you value sedgar as a hero, you should lower darros, according to replacement logic. if you value Xane you should put up wolf, as the original is better than the copy.

That's my problem with this list. At first glace it's a good list, most people are around where you'd expect, but apply consistent logic to it, and it falls apart rapidly.

[Sylvan]

A few things I want to comment on with the newer list:

Bord, Samson, Lorenz

Why is bord the lowest of those?

Bord, if only this, has high strength. Even as a lvl 1 warrior (promoted at lvl 10) he can still do damage with a bow. Sure, he may not hit twice, his def sucks, and he can get dualled, but if anything, Lorenz suffers more from this.

I would be willing to argue Bord off the bottom of the list. At least above Lorenz, and I'd say above Samson as well.

He does have low accuracy, but there are quite a few ways to avoid this, either forge a wep with like +20 accuracy, that'll be enough. (You won't need to give it str as you would some of the other bottom tier characters) And he receives a bucket load of supports from top, mid and high tier characters, which not only increase accuracy, but also increase avoid. A few of the supports work multi-direction, meaning he helps the rest of your team just by being there. He doesn't even need to be on the front lines, he can be 2 spaces back and give Cord a +10 avoid rate. Cord already has good speed, with supports his evade can be amazing.

He has a lot going for him, that some of the other bottom tier characters don't have. Especially the ones ranked 3 or 4 places above him.

I wouldn't argue him off bottom, but certainly not 3rd worst character in the game.

[Yarias]

Sorry if this is bringing up an old topic... but back to the Harken/Karel issues.

Let Harken's individual worth be H (H = 30).

Let Karel's individual worth be K (K = 20).

Let the total value of your current team be T (T = 300)

Adding Harken to the team: T+H = 330

Adding Karel to the team: T+K = 320

Best you can possibly do: B = 330

The opportunity cost of choosing to use Karel is 10 [b-(T+K)] because you could have 10 higher by choosing Harken. The opportunity cost of choosing to use Harken is 0 [b-(T+H)] because you couldn't have done any better anyway. You can't have both of them on the team.

Opportunity costs should not be factored into the worth of a unit. Karel's worth should not be his individual worth minus the opportunity cost for using him; his worth is just his worth. In the context of the example:

If you penalize worth based on opportunity cost then K = 20 - 10 = 10 and H = 30 - 0 = 30. But this can't be because at the very beginning of the post we established that T+K = 300+20 = 320, not 310.

The tier list already captures all of the necessary information. A team with Harken on it is better than a team with Karel on it. In fact, a team with Harken on it is exactly (H-K) better off.

---

Here is an example with exaggerated numbers for emphasis. Consider a hypothetical game with the following individual tier list and a max party size of 3.

God tier

A = 9000 (cannot use D)

Top tier

B = 500

C = 490

Mid tier

D = 400 (cannot use A)

E = 390

Low tier

F = 300

G = 290

Bottom tier

H = 100

Best team with A on it is A+B+C = 9990

Best team with D on it is D+B+C = 1390

Assume for the sake of contradiction that you move D to Low or Bottom tier based on the fact that if your team has D on it, the team sucks.

Since D is now ranked lower than E, we have that B+C+D < B+C+E.

This is a contradiction.

---

To me it seems like tier lists where picking one character over another actually makes a difference should just have parenthetical qualifications... as in:

Z (cannot use E)

A

B

C

D (A,B,C drops to mid tier) //if D is on team A/B/C can't use super useful triangle attack that auto OHKOs any unit

E (cannot use Z)

F

G

---

And finally, in games with class-swap-like functionality, it really makes sense to me to make the tier list have every character in every possible class (as separate entries) as in:

A as X

A as Y

B as X

A as W

B as Y

B as W

B as Z

C as X

C as Y

A as Z

C as W

C as Z

If you are only allowed to have a total of one X, two Ys, two Ws, and three Zs, people can figure out the opportunity costs of things like making B an X on their own.

[slax]

Sorry if this is bringing up an old topic... but back to the Harken/Karel issues.

Let Harken's individual worth be H (H = 30).

Let Karel's individual worth be K (K = 20).

Let the total value of your current team be T (T = 300)

Adding Harken to the team: T+H = 330

Adding Karel to the team: T+K = 320

Best you can possibly do: B = 330

The opportunity cost of choosing to use Karel is 10 [b-(T+K)] because you could have 10 higher by choosing Harken. The opportunity cost of choosing to use Harken is 0 [b-(T+H)] because you couldn't have done any better anyway. You can't have both of them on the team.

Opportunity costs should not be factored into the worth of a unit. Karel's worth should not be his individual worth minus the opportunity cost for using him; his worth is just his worth. In the context of the example:

If you penalize worth based on opportunity cost then K = 20 - 10 = 10 and H = 30 - 0 = 30. But this can't be because at the very beginning of the post we established that T+K = 300+20 = 320, not 310.

The tier list already captures all of the necessary information. A team with Harken on it is better than a team with Karel on it. In fact, a team with Harken on it is exactly (H-K) better off.

---

Here is an example with exaggerated numbers for emphasis. Consider a hypothetical game with the following individual tier list and a max party size of 3.

God tier

A = 9000 (cannot use D)

Top tier

B = 500

C = 490

Mid tier

D = 400 (cannot use A)

E = 390

Low tier

F = 300

G = 290

Bottom tier

H = 100

Best team with A on it is A+B+C = 9990

Best team with D on it is D+B+C = 1390

Assume for the sake of contradiction that you move D to Low or Bottom tier based on the fact that if your team has D on it, the team sucks.

Since D is now ranked lower than E, we have that B+C+D < B+C+E.

This is a contradiction.

---

To me it seems like tier lists where picking one character over another actually makes a difference should just have parenthetical qualifications... as in:

Z (cannot use E)

A

B

C

D (A,B,C drops to mid tier) //if D is on team A/B/C can't use super useful triangle attack that auto OHKOs any unit

E (cannot use Z)

F

G

---

And finally, in games with class-swap-like functionality, it really makes sense to me to make the tier list have every character in every possible class (as separate entries) as in:

A as X

A as Y

B as X

A as W

B as Y

B as W

B as Z

C as X

C as Y

A as Z

C as W

C as Z

If you are only allowed to have a total of one X, two Ys, two Ws, and three Zs, people can figure out the opportunity costs of things like making B an X on their own.

Finally, someone who knows a thing or two about opportunity costs.

This is 100% true, and is also a relevant reason why the original list needs alot of work, since, as I can easily gather from the previous pages, no-one before has really had a good insight into how opp. costs work, and have been making assumptions based on, well, assumptions. (such as darros as a hero) -which IMO, need alot more investigation before they can be accepted as fact.

[Mekkah]

You shouldn't be able to 3-turn rush that level no matter how good sedgar is. Not unless you're using super amazing tactics McWin, in which case tiers mean nothing, because you'd then be judging the player, not the characters. And moreover, if you first-turn transofrom, you lose movement, thus reducing your ability to rush, thus he will have to transform at least once more, thus the flaw is relevant. What class sedgar are you referring to anyway, since there are tons of ridersbanes floating around that map (and as a hero, you have to reduce Darros, since he would use up the slot otherwise)

You don't need to. He can transform again and again and again and again. And unlike Laguz or Mamkutes or anything like that, he stays transformed until a player phase, so he's never back to his original stat'd self.

What I want to know is why Nabarl of all people ends up above Hardin and Ogma, among others.

[Rodykitty]

stax: You have to keep in mind that this is not FE7, where your average unit can solo maps. Actual team work is necessary.

1- the cost of using him as a healer is to remove all your offensive magics. (as he's the only viable one, according to this list)

He levels up so freaking fast that he's only stuck as a Healer for like six or seven chapters, then he becomes Sage.

Having a Mage is not that important in the early chapters (Hammers and Bows), and even if you still want one, there's still Shiida and Caesar as options.

2- the need for support units, since he should die after more than one hit without healing, unless some superfluke happens.

Many units need a support unit after they get hit. It's just how this game is. Merric surviving and needing to be healed is much better than an automatic game over, which would happen if most other healers or Mages got hit. When Merric is surviving on H5, then I can imagine he's doing excellently on NM.

Only if you've already 20'ed sedgar, and aren't using anyone else, which again, is valuing the player, not the character, so is irrelevant to tier lists.

No, not only if you've already 20'd Sedgar. You don't need to 20 Sedgar by this point, he's such an incredibly powerful unit that even just level 10 is adequate at that point.

And I am even assuming other characters are leveled up as well. I have never, ever said that you should pour EXP into one unit.

And Xane picks all of them up as well, but adds to them his own flaws, thus making him and inferior copy, which is all I said. I mean didn't I just say I'm arguing why he's inferior not why he's bad?

Like I said earlier, Chainey actually has benefits other units don't have. He doesn't need to be leveled up at all, and he can actually turn into a different class to cover Sedgar's weaknesses.

If you're really wanting to argue about nitpicky flaws, keep in mind he's already lower than them both within that tier, so that should already cover the nitpicky flaws already.

[Mekkah]

stax: You have to keep in mind that this is not FE7, where your average unit can solo maps. Actual team work is necessary.

In Normal Mode? Naw. I usually had like half of my units dicking around doing nothing due to the huge lack of enemies. Lack of avoidance was a minor problem, but it doesn't matter a lot if you only have 4 enemies thrown at you at a time.

[Rodykitty]

That's true... NM is pretty easy.

Now that I think about it, the three in top tier probably *are* all you need to complete NM, besides Marth capturing thrones. On the harder modes though, teamwork definitely exists.

[Lord Raven]

This is going to be a confusing debate, I'm sure of it. I'm not really sure what to think right now.

worst game to tier EVER

[Rodykitty]

worst game to tier EVER

I don't know if it's this, or if it's because I would rather have you two bicker over it.

[Don Draper]

You don't need to. He can transform again and again and again and again. And unlike Laguz or Mamkutes or anything like that, he stays transformed until a player phase, so he's never back to his original stat'd self.

What I want to know is why Nabarl of all people ends up above Hardin and Ogma, among others.

Probably has to do with him being statistically better then Hardin as a cavalier in everything but speed (And Nabarl shouldn't have doubling issues anyways). Cav Nabarl makes a balanced, tank cav.

[Mekkah]

Makes sense...still, Hardin can use the Silver Lance right away, but I guess stats > one higher weapon level.

[Rodykitty]

Hardin > Navarre on higher modes, where the Silver Lance helps more.

[AdamNW]

worst game to tier EVER

Actually, if you tier everyone without considering unit costs, then (and only then) factor in unit costs, it makes for a tier list. I mean, it's not like FE10 was much better.

[slax]

stax: You have to keep in mind that this is not FE7, where your average unit can solo maps. Actual team work is necessary.

"slax" ;P -and this game in NM is a billion times easier than FE7. Your average unit CAN solo maps, I've done it, multiple times, its not hard at all.

He levels up so freaking fast that he's only stuck as a Healer for like six or seven chapters, then he becomes Sage.

Having a Mage is not that important in the early chapters (Hammers and Bows), and even if you still want one, there's still Shiida and Caesar as options.

Many units need a support unit after they get hit. It's just how this game is. Merric surviving and needing to be healed is much better than an automatic game over, which would happen if most other healers or Mages got hit. When Merric is surviving on H5, then I can imagine he's doing excellently on NM.

This isn't a H5 tier list, I would be arguing totally differently if it were. All I'm saying is that Merric is a support unit, he acts as backup to the cavaliers that do all the actual work. Healers can only heal if there's an injured unit, which is the cavaliers, horsemen, etc. Mages can't survive more than a few hits, so the other units must help him to attack. He is support, so the other units that he is supporting should go above him.

No, not only if you've already 20'd Sedgar. You don't need to 20 Sedgar by this point, he's such an incredibly powerful unit that even just level 10 is adequate at that point.

And I am even assuming other characters are leveled up as well. I have never, ever said that you should pour EXP into one unit.

No, assuming sedgar gets, say, 100 exp per level, then assuming you equally use sedgar and Xane, he gets only 50 exp per level. That means you've halved his growth speed -the only time Xane doesn't steal his exp is when the other unit's not earning any, ie: at 20 (0exp/2 =0exp).

Like I said earlier, Chainey actually has benefits other units don't have. He doesn't need to be leveled up at all, and he can actually turn into a different class to cover Sedgar's weaknesses.

He changes class too slowly for that to be a real advantage. Unlike ninian, who can swap who she dances on every turn, Xane cannot for several.

If you're really wanting to argue about nitpicky flaws, keep in mind he's already lower than them both within that tier, so that should already cover the nitpicky flaws already.

this is what I think the list should look like (I've only gone through the top order, the rest is also messy but that's far more complex to go through)

Top:

Sedgar

Wolf

Frey

Cain (Cain is basically 100% better than Abel)

Abel

Merric

Xane

Reasoning: Xane is only as good as the units he copies, thus, naturally, the units he copies should be above him, making him one of the best, but slightly inferior to the best.

Merric needs to support units, not take on maps by himself, thus the units he supports should be above him.

Frey Cain and Abel are very powerful, have good growths, are available the whole game, and are good classes. There's no reason they shouldn't be in top tier.

That's the kind of nitpicking I was talking about, barely any changes XD, but I do honestly think that's a more agreeable top tier than the previous one.

Then if we were to go onto high tier, IMO: Ogma > Hardin, averages are better, he comes earlier. Julian could to drop down a bit, his strength is just too low, marth can do the job of a thief just as well given a door key (since he can convoy) Darros could drop, since he really isn't great, but since there's not many people who can take his spot, I'm not really fussed about that. Nagi should drop, simply because she has next to 0 utility, coming in for the last chapter only, a character simply cannot do much good in one mission (plus you miss out on a warp staff, thoron and swarm if you get her, the warp staff being especially important). Lena should go up to around, roughly, where Julian is now, her being a very useful healer, and a great resistance tank lategame. Athena needs looking at, purely because of the mission requirements to get her and the opportunity cost of killing off that many units to get her.