So...let's talk tiers.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

No. They can't. You underestimating NM. Show me 1 character that can solo the entire game past mission 18. I did it with Tiki. So i know it's possible (and quite easy). Try clearing Camus the Sable with 1 character. Then try clearing Dark Pontifex with the same character. Only that 1 character. No support units. You'll have a hard time. You have to beat a swarth of strong physical troops, then a swarth of strong magic users, nigh on no characters can do that. Tiki can.

My other points. Usefulness. You say merric is useful as a healer in the early game. Well I say finishing the game at chapter 18 is better.

Like FE3 Player said, Sedgar. Marth Solo is possible too. Barst Solo, Ogma Solo... I think those are possible too.

Camus is easy in NM and it's not like you even have to beat him.

Dark pontifex... Pure waters.

Btw, Tiki has limited uses. Won't those run out if she's literally killing everything in the last few chapters?

[Sylvan]

Sedgar + pure water is 7 def diminishing over each turn (Tiki has base 22 when you get her). Sedgar can't solo Dark Pontifex and if he can, then he can't solo The Dragonkin Realm as well. He needs dragon slayer weapons + pure water + healing to stand a chance. Tiki did it by herself + starsphere.

Like FE3 Player said, Sedgar. Marth Solo is possible too. Barst Solo, Ogma Solo... I think those are possible too.

Camus is easy in NM and it's not like you even have to beat him.

Dark pontifex... Pure waters.

Btw, Tiki has limited uses. Won't those run out if she's literally killing everything in the last few chapters?

Play Dark pontifex with just 1 of those units. Tell me how easy it is to solo. 7 res is nothing when you fight a dozen mages and kill 1 a turn, and then have to climb up the tower under a barrage of swarm, and cannot hurt the boss who will chase you. EDIT: (not to mention you won't get falchion, so good luck beating the final boss with just 1 of those peeps. You'll prolly have to forge the heck out of a wyrmslayer to stand a chance.)

Tiki /w starsphere = infinite uses. You won't need falchion, so you won't need starlight, so you can keep the sphere. Gharnef can't hurt her.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Sylvan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Sedgar + pure water is 7 def diminishing over each turn (Tiki has base 22 when you get her). Sedgar can't solo Dark Pontifex and if he can, then he can't solo The Dragonkin Realm as well. He needs dragon slayer weapons + pure water + healing to stand a chance. Tiki did it by herself + starsphere.

You probably don't even need those pure waters anyway... You could class swap him into something that can run up to a mage and kill it in 1 hit.

C24? He can in NM. General Zagaro with Gradivus, Starsphere, Pure Water, Vulnerary, Dragonpike says hi. The lategame is easy so who cares if Tiki can solo it? Where's Tiki's so-called awesomeness in the first few chapters where you really need it? You seem to forget the fact that 1 unit Soloing everything will end up with high stats and will receive the stat boosters, making the lategame pathetically easy.

Ah Starsphere... right.

[Rodykitty]

Keep Sedgar at the starting point and make sure he's trained as a Hero. Give him a Hand Axe. And keep waiting until reinforcements stop respawning, and have him kill enemies that climb down to kill him.

If needed, have him use the Gradius to heal himself, especially when the Thoron users come (which there are only two).

Pure Waters will stack on top of his natural Res, giving him 10 Res as opposed to 7.

Edited December 30, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Play Dark pontifex with just 1 of those units. Tell me how easy it is to solo. 7 res is nothing when you fight a dozen mages and kill 1 a turn, and then have to climb up the tower under a barrage of swarm, and cannot hurt the boss who will chase you. EDIT: (not to mention you won't get falchion, so good luck beating the final boss with just 1 of those peeps. You'll prolly have to forge the heck out of a wyrmslayer to stand a chance.)

Tiki /w starsphere = infinite uses. You won't need falchion, so you won't need starlight, so you can keep the sphere. Gharnef can't hurt her.

Medeus would still be easy with 1 incredibly overpowered unit. Maybe not a beefed up Sage but a General or Hero should do the trick.

Lategame chapters in NM are EASY. Purewaters WILL make C23 easy to solo.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Levin

[slax]

This is the NM tier list. His comparison is valid.

riiight, I said we should go onto HM, since NM is too uncompetitive (paraphrased, of course), so how does building a tier list for a game with (essentially) one mode make for a valid comparison? -do you seriously have a tier list for Lyn mode on easy? Or Hector mode on easy? That's a more valid comparison.

He's fast enough to not be taking two during the early game, then after that he can be brushed aside in favor of a Sage that's more suitable for the late game.

According to this list there are no "lategame" sages, as a matter of fact, there are no sages at all apart from Merric that are useable (ie: top 15) -so either this tier list is wrong, or your defence of Merric is wrong. Again, consistent logic dictates this list is incorrect.

Keeping the units you deem most valuable alive is considered doing nothing now?

Most valuable. Think about that. Merric can't heal himself, can he? No this argument either proves me right, or proves you wrong. -he's either healing relatively invaluable units, and hence doing nothing, or healing your "most valuable" units, which is, according to this list, Merric, who is the sloe unit he cannot heal. -Again, obviously inconsistent logic.

Not to mention that using vulneraries takes up a turn and heals for pitiful amounts, and there's rarely any time to sit on forts when a tier list is based on not wasting your time.

When did I ever say use vulneraries, forts or anything of the sort? Straw man fallacy.

The tier list is about the usefulness of units on an individual basis. While you can have an army without a healer, this is not what the tier list is about.

But think about it, come on, what IS the tier list about, really, you're saying what it isn't, not what it is, and I've proved countless times why NONE of the definitions you give to a tier list put merric at the top, so how am I still wrong? You can spite me if you want, but at least give me a valid reason. -Merric is healing Segdar, Frey, etc, So obviously, Sedgar or frey should be more USEFUL than Merric, since they are attacking, not Merric. When Merric IS attacking, he CANNOT take on any more than two units at once, giving him limited combat uses, while sedgar, Frey, etc, can, so they have many many combat uses. Please, I'm just asking for the reason why Merric is on top. "You're wrong" is not a reason.

Except that Merric is part of the group of units that are rushing, and is making the work easier on them. He may not be on the front lines, but he could possibly take a hit from a closer enemy while the front line groups fight the more far back enemies.

But this still assumes Merric is doing LESS work than the frontline units. "makign the work easier for them" -but "they" are still DOING the work, so Merric is doing LESS than they are, so Merric is LESS useful, so Merric is LOWER on the tier list. That's not just inconsistent logic, that's straight out illogical.

What the above poster said.

Also, I repeat once again. Chainey does NOT need to be leveled up. This is a positive, not a negative, because you never have to set aside units that others could kill to level him up, ever (which actually means that others are still leveling up), and instead keeping him to actually using him for tactical purposes.

I'm tempted to put the age old fallacy of "why aren't you reading what I wrote?" in here, but I shan't. -I'll just ask rhetorical questions. When did I say Xane needs levelling? Never. Why? Because Xane's levelling has nothing to do with it. I said that "If Xane were to copy a unit and be used the same amount as that copied unit, the copied unit will grow at half speed" -and you are all arguing about why the copied unit doesn't need levelling, why Xane doesn't need growth, but all of these points have nothing to do with what I said, at all. I don't understand why you keep brining up completely irrelevant points. I said Xane is an inferior copy because (among other things) the EXP he gains does not go into constructive levels, which, it does not. I said this means that the unit he is copying will grow slower. Which, they do. Therefore Xane is an inferior copy. Now you can tell me why Xane is good, and it'll have nothing to do with what I've just said. You can tell me why you don't think Xane should drop in the tier list, and that will have nothing to do with what I've just said. You can tell me why Xane can class change every 3 turns, and it'll have nothing to do with what I've said.

Except he's not inferior

THAT is what I'm responding to, I hope that wall of text cleared things up a bit.

And just for clarity, Xane will use up half of the EXP that would have OTHERWISE gone to the unit he would have copied (ceteris paribus -all things being equal), hence the opportunity cost of using him is exactly half the EXP of that which the other unit would have gained. Thus, using him incurrs a cost that using the OTHER unit would not incur, thus Xane in inferior to the original unit, thus Xane is an inferior copy, unless the copied unit is level 20, in which case the EXP gain is 0 anyway, and they lose nothing, but this shouldn't be the case unless babying is present.

And also, I apologise if I'm being angry, I'm not trying to, I honestly am trying to keep this as flame-free as possible, but it's inevitable I've come off that way, I'm not so good at proof reading online (I get bored XD), so I hope you don't get an impression of me as an angry dude, cuz I'm not trying to be. *cake* (I would say *chocloate*, but I'm so sick of chocolate from christmas XD)

[Rodykitty]

According to this list there are no "lategame" sages, as a matter of fact, there are no sages at all apart from Merric that are useable (ie: top 15) -so either this tier list is wrong, or your defence of Merric is wrong. Again, consistent logic dictates this list is incorrect.

Lena is usable. Caesar is also a usable Sorcerer. It seems Navarre can make for one as well.

If you think that top tier = only characters you should use, then you don't understand tiers at all.

riiight, I said we should go onto HM, since NM is too uncompetitive (paraphrased, of course), so how does building a tier list for a game with (essentially) one mode make for a valid comparison? -do you seriously have a tier list for Lyn mode on easy? Or Hector mode on easy? That's a more valid comparison.

When people actually start debating on it. The H5 tier list is somewhere in this thread, yet people continued to debate the NM tier list, so here we are. We'll start debating H5 tier list if Beserker2DahBlader gets back and I can convince him to put it in the first post for everyone to see (as well as update the NM tier list).

Most valuable. Think about that. Merric can't heal himself, can he? No this argument either proves me right, or proves you wrong. -he's either healing relatively invaluable units, and hence doing nothing, or healing your "most valuable" units, which is, according to this list, Merric, who is the sloe unit he cannot heal. -Again, obviously inconsistent logic.

Okay... I'm going to continue using reasoning instead of playing logic games.

When did I ever say use vulneraries, forts or anything of the sort? Straw man fallacy.

You have to heal sometime, and having a Healer is the best way to do it. I have to point out why a healer is valuable because you keep implying that combat units are the only useful units in the game.

But this still assumes Merric is doing LESS work than the frontline units. "makign the work easier for them" -but "they" are still DOING the work, so Merric is doing LESS than they are, so Merric is LESS useful, so Merric is LOWER on the tier list. That's not just inconsistent logic, that's straight out illogical.

I don't judge units based on how much work they do. I judge them on results.

And just for clarity, Xane will use up half of the EXP that would have OTHERWISE gone to the unit he would have copied (ceteris paribus -all things being equal), hence the opportunity cost of using him is exactly half the EXP of that which the other unit would have gained. Thus, using him incurrs a cost that using the OTHER unit would not incur, thus Xane in inferior to the original unit, thus Xane is an inferior copy, unless the copied unit is level 20, in which case the EXP gain is 0 anyway, and they lose nothing, but this shouldn't be the case unless babying is present.

And you know what... This doesn't matter a single bit. The EXP loss is going to be incredibly minuscule for reasons I've stated earlier.

So maybe you've proven me wrong, but I don't care at all, because it's such a minor flaw that you're blowing out of proportion.

Edited December 30, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

Another one, why is Julian in upper mid, he has no combat ability. None. Marth can do the job for him, and you have an endless supply of keys from the online shop (which Marth can access from the convoy)

It sort of allows you to progress faster because Marth and your other units don't have to worry about chests. More on that when it's not 4:30 AM. Edited December 30, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Sylvan]

Well, i should probably wait before posting then, but this is the point i'm trying to make (not really in relation to any character, i'm just using tiki as an example because it's easier this way.)

Tiki can clear the last few missions by herself. Sedgar. . . Well I have doubts, but I'll go with what is said. But saying Sedgar can clear the last few by himself is kinda pointless, since he can clear any mission by himself. He can clear 80% of the game by himself, so it's natural he can clear the last 20%. Tiki can clear the last 20% giving her utility over the rest of the cast who presumably cannot. i.e. Tiki's potential isn't reduced by saying Sedgar is better. Sedgar is Sedgar. If your not using Sedgar, then it'll be more difficult to pass the game without using tiki in this manor. (more difficult doesn't mean difficult, it's like one has a difficulty of 10 the other has a difficulty of 11) If she is used the way I did. (Not to say she has to be used this way, just that she can.) then you'll only need the rest of your characters to get to lvl 19.

This gives her some usefulness, just that she can, with relatively low favourtism (not disimilar to making Merric a healer, or getting Sedgar past his bad bases) be useful. If this has already been factored into the list, and Cord is considered more useful (personally I think Cord is a great character =D, but there are others that fill his role better than him, so he can be ignored with little cost) then I won't ask her be changed.

With Marth, it is possible to not use a thief and still open every chest. It has to be factored that the thief takes a character slot (because we all know you'll need EVERY one of the 15 people >.>;;) and that not using a thief drains money (you can sell key for a few $$$) and also takes longer using marth. However, this is also not dissimilar to saying "Keep Sedgar at the starting point and make sure he's trained as a Hero. " Which also wastes turns.

It's a bit of give and take, a thief isn't really needed, there are a few instances where one comes in handy, but I found you can just use any thief to do the job, not Julian in particular, since they can't take a hit and don't need to be trained (Marth can take all the hard-to-get chests and can win the races against enemy thieves, where your thief can follow up later) For example, I wouldn't say Julian (in particular) is up there with Darros and Ogma, while Marth is only 5 places above. Math should be that high just from combat ability alone, then his chest opening and convoy carrying can be taken into account. He is kinda like a thief, merlinus, a lord and a armour/dragon slayer all in 1 neat package.

Anyway, get some sleep. I was posting in a rush before, so i sound a bit narky. Sorry for that. how can you people post so quick!

[slax]

Lena is usable. Caesar is also a usable Sorcerer. It seems Navarre can make for one as well.

You're kidding right? How does that make sense? Lena has LESS health AND defence than Merric. Castor and Nabarl are terrible mages. They'll do like, 0 damage. They have like, 7 magic, less hp and defence than Merric. I'm starting to think you don't even know how to calculate averages. I mean really, you've said that we should replace Merric with characters who are inferior to him. Come on. Really. Realllllllyyy?

If you think that top tier = only characters you should use, then you don't understand tiers at all.

You've not provided me with an adequate alternative and did not answer my question. Still telling me what a tier list is not is a vagueness fallacy, and like I said before, fallacies are the tool of desperate people who can't win with reasoning. According to a tier list, based on utility, which is the definition you've given me, then more utility is ALWAYS preferred to less, that is a law of all rational decision making, and I can prove it, since I've done a university course on the subject. Now then, given that more is preferred to less, according to this tier list, it is irrational to use anyone below the top 15 if it can be avoided, because you'd be choosing a team with less total or individual utility than could be possible otherwise. You'd be choosing Karel over Harken. So, by definition, either your definition is blatantly wrong, or you've got no idea on how to visualise utility, either way proving you've not no grounds with which to assail my arguments.

So yeah, I'm sorry, but if you continue to say "You're wrong" you'll make an even bigger fool out of yourself than you already have.

When people actually start debating on it. The H5 tier list is somewhere in this thread, yet people continued to debate the NM tier list, so here we are. We'll start debating H5 tier list if Beserker2DahBlader gets back and I can convince him to put it in the first post for everyone to see (as well as update the NM tier list).

if you say so.

Okay... I'm going to continue using reasoning instead of playing logic games.

Google define: reasoning: thinking that is coherent and logical. *cough*lookbeforeyouleap*cough*

You have to heal sometime, and having a Healer is the best way to do it. I have to point out why a healer is valuable because you keep implying that combat units are the only useful units in the game.

No, I keep explicitly saying (not implying, there are no "logic games" going on here), that any tier list based on USEFULNESS, which is what YOU said a tier list is based on, given Merric is NOT attacking AT ALL till chapter 10, and after that is ONLY attacking lone units, while every other unit below him has done so much more actual combat than he has, and lategame, won't need healing- by your own admission, there is no reason why a healer is MORE useful than a combat troop.

Maybe I'm playing a different game to you, but my Frey was damnnear unstoppable, and I didn't heal him. So, I'm saying that a healer is not AS useful as a (good) combat troop, not that they aren't useful.

I don't judge units based on how much work they do. I judge them on results.

So while Frey, Cain, Abel, Sedgar and wolf have cleared 10 chapters, then become tanks who don't need healing and continue to clear chapters, all the while Merric is level abusing occasionally killing off one or two units, when tactics permit, Merric is obviously getting better results than everyone else, oh right, you're not using logic. You think that's a game.

And you know what... This doesn't matter a single bit. The EXP loss is going to be incredibly minuscule for reasons I've stated earlier.

How many times have I said that now? I'm not arguing he's bad, just inferior. A minuscule inferiority is still an inferiority.

So maybe you've proven me wrong, but I don't care at all, because it's such a minor flaw that you're blowing out of proportion.

What, that the top order of the tier list is total crap? You call that a MINOR flaw? Oh wait, you don't believe in logic.

Look at it from my point of view, given Merric should be, reasonably, around the fourth most useful unit in the game, Xane will be better, according to this list, than everyone bar Sedgar. I don't believe this to be so. I believe he should drop one or two places to be reasonable, because he comes late, is an inferior copy and has a few minor tactical flaws that the originals don't have. While he's still a very very good unit, it doesn't make sense for him to be second to sedgar and sedgar alone. But that's all assuming Merric is dropped a few places, and so I'll hold my Xane argument till the Merric one finishes.

Edited for typos

Edited December 30, 2008 by slax

[Rodykitty]

Sylvian: Tiki is mid-tier. Mid-tier is the opposite of useless. Cord is pretty high up too. Also keep in mind that a lot of the higher units are there because of far better availability.

You're kidding right? How does that make sense? Lena has LESS health AND defence than Merric. Castor and Nabarl are terrible mages. They'll do like, 0 damage. They have like, 7 magic, less hp and defence than Merric. I'm starting to think you don't even know how to calculate averages. I mean really, you've said that we should replace Merric with characters who are inferior to him. Come on. Really. Realllllllyyy?

It makes sense because you wanted me to tell you what Mages were usable, not what mages were on par with Maric.

Also, I said Caesar, not Castor.

given Merric is NOT attacking AT ALL till chapter 10, and after that is ONLY attacking lone units, while every other unit below him has done so much more actual combat than he has, and lategame, won't need healing- by your own admission, there is no reason why a healer is MORE useful than a combat troop.

Maric isn't attacking lone units. He's part of the group that's rushing. He's totally not going to die, especially with how weak NM enemies are.

You would only have a point that combat units are more useful... If Maric wasn't a combat unit himself.

I'm not going to try and argue that healing is more useful, as long as you know that healers are useful (and not just because of healing. Hello Warp Staff, which the Warp staff alone is why Rena needs to bump up), because Maric gets things combat units have in a short time. Not to mention that promoting quickly = better stats due to being at a high level, and the continued ability to heal means continued support and continued leveling up.

Google define: reasoning: thinking that is coherent and logical. *cough*lookbeforeyouleap*cough*

Coherent being the keyword. I'm not going to play logic games because of the jumbled mass of potential confusion bound to happen. Edited December 30, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Seph]

FE3 Player is my bitch.

Anyway,

given Merric is NOT attacking AT ALL till chapter 10

In NM, enemies are REALLY pathetic. So, why not exactly?

[Rodykitty]

Training up as Curate, though you could probably alternate classes every chapter to have him attack more often.

[Seph]

My point.

And Maric won't be getting too much exp in NM.

[Rodykitty]

And Maric won't be getting too much exp in NM.

Why not?

[Seph]

Not enough to heal and the chapters are fast paced. In a tier list, you want to complete as efficiently and as fast as possible.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Julius

[Rodykitty]

Staves give a ton of EXP in this game. You would be surprised how fast a healer will level up even unintentionally. You can even use the M.Barrier staff to get EXP when nobody needs it.

[Seph]

Erm, we're talking about Chapter 10 and below?

You only get Physic and Mend. Physic is useful for later on, and Mend and Heal only give 22 exp or less. Impressive no doubt, but you won't have the chance to use it very much in a chapter.

[Rodykitty]

Erm, we're talking about Chapter 10 and below?

Ch.11-13 is more realistic, to be honest, but he's definitely going to be the first to promote.

Impressive no doubt, but you won't have the chance to use it very much in a chapter.

Just make sure he heals even if units won't need it.

[Seph]

Not so sure. In a normal mode playthrough, you want to charge as much as possible, and since Curates have penis move, you won't be healing much. I'd rather kill for exp.

[Rodykitty]

That is a good point. Mov is the only thing stopping him.

[Seph]

I'd rather have Maric as a Mage.

Also, I am going off topic for a second, but in a ranked run is there going to be an exp rank?

[Rodykitty]

I'd rather have Maric as a Mage.

I prefer alternating his classes, but the tier list position assumes he has trained as Cleric.

Also, I am going off topic for a second, but in a ranked run is there going to be an exp rank?

Yes.

[Seph]

It should take Cleric's crap move into account.

Okay, so in this tier list, are we counting the exp rank or not?

Because then that would really suck.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Julius

[Rodykitty]

Okay, so in this tier list, are we counting the exp rank or not?

Because then that would really suck.

FEDS has no rankings, which is why Merric has a good reason to stay as high as he is, because of the warp staff.

The EXP ranking I'm talking about is something I'm making, so the H5 tier list won't reflect on it accurately (Sedgar/Wolf will definitely drop).

Edited December 30, 2008 by FE3 Player