So...let's talk tiers.

[Seph]

FEDS has no rankings, which is why Merric has a good reason to stay as high as he is, because of the warp staff.

Generally I thought that ranks were taken account into any FE game's tier list.

The EXP ranking I'm talking about is something I'm making, so the H5 tier list won't reflect on it accurately (Sedgar/Wolf will definitely drop).

I know you were talking about that, but I was just wondering.

[Rodykitty]

Generally I thought that ranks were taken account into any FE game's tier list.

We have turn count, thus the whole Nagi thing and "why is Rena so low!?"

[Seph]

Alright, thanks for the info.

Also, I suggest not putting an exp rank. It generally ruins the fun of the game for most rankers, especially me. I quit my FE6 rank without even knowing it just because of how boring it was.

[Rodykitty]

The main reason for having an EXP rank is so that half the game won't be skipped using the warp staff.

[Seph]

I think it's because you hate General Sedgar and Wolf.

And skipping half the game won't get any exp for your other units, which isn't cool. Then again, it would make tactics a lot easier..

Make the exp rank not too hard, at least.

[Rodykitty]

I think it's because you hate General Sedgar and Wolf.

No, the Warp Staff is definitely the main reason. Sedgar and Wolf are still going to be usable (and I know of a way to get one of them trained even under turn count limitations).

Make the exp rank not too hard, at least.

I won't. Edited December 30, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Mekkah]

Making your very own EXP rank is pretty weird. Tier lists should reflect on efficiency. This game doesn't give us its own definition of that, so we're free to create our own. EXP rank doesn't promote efficiency, it promotes more like the opposite (take longer, kill enemies with units that aren't as good at it).

Also, depending on how strict you make it, units will raise or drop. That hurts its integrity even more. "Hey, if the requirement is 900 levels, Merric > Jake, but if it's 1600, Jake > Merric" (just an example, no need to go into detail on this one).

[Rodykitty]

The ranking is oriented for a challenge, so I don't expect it to have anything to do with tier lists.

[slax]

It makes sense because you wanted me to tell you what Mages were usable, not what mages were on par with Maric.

No, I wanted you to tell me who you should replace Merric with.

"He's fast enough to not be taking two during the early game, then after that he can be brushed aside in favor of a Sage that's more suitable for the late game."

-post #338 page 17 (quote reply is screwy for me)

Also, I said Caesar, not Castor.

Apologies, you're using teh japanese names alot so I get confused DX anywhoo; Caesar is still an inferior mage to Merric, and will end up on average worse in every single stat bar strength, which is an irrelevant stat.

Maric isn't attacking lone units. He's part of the group that's rushing. He's totally not going to die, especially with how weak NM enemies are.

Assuming Merric does rush, on average, he should be able to take out 2-3 units, one on attack, one on counterattack, and they perhaps a third, but he's pretty close to dying then. Frey, Sedgar, etc, can easily take double+ that number, alone. When used in groups it increases even more.

You would only have a point that combat units are more useful... If Maric wasn't a combat unit himself.

I'm not assuming Merric isn't a combat troop, I'm assuming he's an inferior combat troop.

I'm not going to try and argue that healing is more useful, as long as you know that healers are useful (and not just because of healing. Hello Warp Staff, which the Warp staff alone is why Rena needs to bump up), because Maric gets things combat units have in a short time. Not to mention that promoting quickly = better stats due to being at a high level, and the continued ability to heal means continued support and continued leveling up.

If Lena were higher I could understand this list.

Her being low is one of the main reasons why the list makes no sense. How can Merric be so high with so many flaws, yet Lena so low with only slightly inferior stats, but otherwise being basically the same? If Merric is so high, Lena should be higher, if Lena is low, Merric should be lower. This list puts Lena low and Merric high, so I just cannot comprehend the logic behind it. Besides, it *could* be argued that Lena is better than Merric (I'm not going to argue that, since I know it's a longshot, her HP and speed suck), but if the two are comparable, then why the massive difference in ranking?

Coherent being the keyword. I'm not going to play logic games because of the jumbled mass of potential confusion bound to happen.

well, let's not dwell on it, I think we're seeing more eye to eye.

In NM, enemies are REALLY pathetic. So, why not exactly?

(post#362 Pg 19, with respect to Merric in the first 10 levels) -quote reply is still screwey XD

I was just doing that for argument's and comparison's sake. Assuming the best-case scenario, short of arena abusing, Merric could be a sage by about then, but Frey could also be a paladin, so the argument Merric grows much faster than other units isn't correct, since he only gains slightly faster even when assuming the best-case for him and borderline worst case for everyone else.

[Rodykitty]

No, I wanted you to tell me who you should replace Merric with.

"He's fast enough to not be taking two during the early game, then after that he can be brushed aside in favor of a Sage that's more suitable for the late game."

I was talking about Wendell, not Merric. On H5, Wendell is useful until he is replaced by better promoted Sages.

Apologies, you're using teh japanese names alot so I get confused DX anywhoo; Caesar is still an inferior mage to Merric, and will end up on average worse in every single stat bar strength, which is an irrelevant stat.

He's still usable, he's just not as high on the tier list, obviously.

I'm not assuming Merric isn't a combat troop, I'm assuming he's an inferior combat troop.

He has some advantages to make up for it. Obviously he always has 1-2 range, and with tomes that are better than Javelins and Hand Axes. He is a res tank for fighting Mages (and incidentally enough, on Ch. 15 he can also help OHKO Dracoriders).

While he may not be as good of a tank, he can still counter attack kill thanks to good HP that will let him survive. This is useful when you consider that he's a ranged hitter, thus during the player phase can attack without taking damage, except against Javelins or Hand Axes, which is what he's good for counter attacking against in the first place (especially since this is NM, and such weapons never get better).

He can also use the Warp Staff. That more than makes up for his flaws alone.

Assuming the best-case scenario, short of arena abusing, Merric could be a sage by about then, but Frey could also be a paladin, so the argument Merric grows much faster than other units isn't correct, since he only gains slightly faster even when assuming the best-case for him and borderline worst case for everyone else.

Frey also shares EXP with a other combat units that would like to have EXP (while Healers have a less crowded EXP pool), and pouring EXP into Frey himself will slow down EXP gain per kill (while a healer is still gaining decent EXP per staff use).

I can't see Frey being level 20 by the time you get your first Master Seal, especially in a playstyle where you're rushing through the game and ignoring opportunities to level up on reinforcements, even if Maric doesn't reach level 20 himself either.

By the time they both reach level 20, you'll have more than one Master Seal to go around.

[Lord Raven]

Not enough to heal and the chapters are fast paced.

"Not enough to heal?" Everytime you attack, you're guaranteed to take damage unless you critical. There's actually hit rate in this game, remember?

In a tier list, you want to complete as efficiently and as fast as possible.

http://yaymarsha.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

That covers as fast as possible. Efficiency is not defined, however, seeing as we have no ranks to judge by.

Erm, we're talking about Chapter 10 and below?

You only get Physic and Mend. Physic is useful for later on, and Mend and Heal only give 22 exp or less. Impressive no doubt, but you won't have the chance to use it very much in a chapter.

Only 22 EXP or less? That's a guaranteed level up every five turns, two level ups every 9 turns, etc. Which is a lot considering how much EXP everyone else might get. It might slow down to a level up every 8 turns in the latter levels, but it's still quite a good rate.

Heals give 17 EXP at base, which is still a lot.

[Sylvan]

Only 22 EXP or less? That's a guaranteed level up every five turns, two level ups every 9 turns, etc. Which is a lot considering how much EXP everyone else might get. It might slow down to a level up every 8 turns in the latter levels, but it's still quite a good rate.

Heals give 17 EXP at base, which is still a lot.

Mend only has 16 uses, with 22 exp, that's only 3 levels you'll get out of it (3.5). Heal works out the same (ignoring the decreasing exp from higher levels)

Since you can only use the staff 1 time per phase (player + enemy) usually combat units come out trumps, since defeating an enemy gives more exp than a staff, and taking two hits (player phase + enemy phase) also gives more exp than a staff.

Of course, you can pick like 3 or 4 units and stick to them, let them soak up the early levels until you get the sedgar/wolf tanks and let the ubar strong units fill numbers. That way your not wasting exp on too many units who become obsolete.

[Lord Raven]

16 uses lasts two chapters. And 3.5 is easily more levels than your fighter units--there aren't many enemies in this game.

[Rodykitty]

Do not forget that Healers get Staff EXP all to themselves and do not have to share it except among other healers. They are also guaranteed EXP on the player phase if they are able to use a staff, while combat units must share EXP and distribute it among themselves in choosing who gets to kill out of a pool of limited kills to take.

[Sylvan]

Yes, but fighting units get the prologue, which is more than enough to compensate.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Yes, but fighting units get the prologue, which is more than enough to compensate.

Only 4 good characters exist in the prologue. It's not enough to compensate and it doesn't change the fact that physical units' promotions are late compared to healers.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Levin

[Lord Raven]

That's five units in total, at the very, very best. Not like Gordin is getting much EXP, whilst Norne (if she were played) isn't getting much at all and Jagen's EXP acquiring rate thing is low so that means that the three cavvies and Marth are getting the EXP. The rest of your units don't have a prologue.

Not like Merric will have trouble catching up anyway.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

two words

barrier ftw

[Lord Raven]

that's more like four

Also, Draug should be like low-mid because his offense tends to grow well as a Fighter/Pirate (though his defense is still shit). 80% HP, 45% Str, 35% Skl, 50% Spd sounds cool even if there are 0% in Def/Res. His bases aren't too bad either.

	 Level|HP|Str|Mag|Skl| Spd|Lck|Def|Res|Mov|Class
Draug	1|22|  6|  0|  2| 10|  1|   3|  0|  6|Fighter
Draug	1|20|  6|  0|  2|  9|  1|   4|  0|  6|Pirate

  HP|Str|Mag|Skl|Spd|Lck|Def|Res|Class
Draug 80| 45|  0| 35| 50| 30|  0|  0|Fighter/Warrior/Pirate/Berserker

Fighter sounds a lot more appealing here, but either way.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Sylvan]

Dolph also makes a good fighter. I found if you make him a fighter then a horseman, he becomes one of the best horsemen in the game, maxing speed and strength while still having good health. As a horseman, his stats are basically the same as a swordmaster, cept he can use bows and move further.

Most knight/generals have high character speed growth to compensate for the lack of class speed growth, so when they change class they gain a lot of speed. However, the reverse is true for def, as most have bad def in any class aside general.

[Seph]

"Not enough to heal?" Everytime you attack, you're guaranteed to take damage unless you critical. There's actually hit rate in this game, remember?

http://yaymarsha.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

That covers as fast as possible. Efficiency is not defined, however, seeing as we have no ranks to judge by.

Only 22 EXP or less? That's a guaranteed level up every five turns, two level ups every 9 turns, etc. Which is a lot considering how much EXP everyone else might get. It might slow down to a level up every 8 turns in the latter levels, but it's still quite a good rate.

Heals give 17 EXP at base, which is still a lot.

Nathan Graves, you ignored my most important point and you attempted to debate, which is just pathetic. Curates do not have enough move to heal everyone, in a tier list you have to charge.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

You don't have to charge. There's nothing that tells us we have to. There are no ranks in this game, we don't have to charge.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

In a tier list, it shows the usefulness of characters when they make a game faster and more efficiently. If you read the previous posts, you'll see FE3 Player didn't disagree with this.

Here, if you don't believe me, let me quote Mekkah, which I'm sure you know well:

Tier lists should reflect on efficiency. This game doesn't give us its own definition of that, so we're free to create our own. EXP rank doesn't promote efficiency, it promotes more like the opposite (take longer, kill enemies with units that aren't as good at it).

In Mekkah's definition of a tier list, it's based on efficiency, and time is in that. So you have to charge.

So Maric will barely be healing anything because of crap move without Physic, and even with Physic, you're just wasting it.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

This game doesn't give us its own definition of that, so we're free to create our own.

We haven't defined it yet have we?

(I tried self-made ranks back on FESS once. :< It never really got off the ground aside from the Funds rank. Good luck.)

If we're going to judge solely by how fast you can charge, the Warp staff users should be in Top and everyone else should be a lot lower.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

We haven't defined it yet have we?

(I tried self-made ranks back on FESS once. :< It never really got off the ground aside from the Funds rank. Good luck.)

We don't have to define anything. We just have to go as fast as possible.

If we're going to judge solely by how fast you can charge, the Warp staff users should be in Top and everyone else should be a lot lower.

Then in a tier list no one else would be remarkable, so what would be the point? We want to see how useful the other characters are. Also, I didn't make the tier list, so I can't comment on it.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Julius