So...let's talk tiers.

[Rodykitty]

Farming

Even if it is wasteful and considered farming, it's a completely legitimate tactic since it's not adding up unnecessary turns. It would be different if you were actually grinding on this.

Stuff about Julian not being able to grow because of other units

Why are you using so many units in the first place? That's going to stunt growth for everyone, regardless of who they are.

Julian is being judged by his quality, just like every other unit is. If you want to use him, then you'll likely make room for him on your team. It's what the tier list is for, deciding who is best, decent, mediocre, and crap on a team, not who is getting priority over things.

Did I say put him in low tier?

Yes you did. That's what almost useless is, afterall.

[slax]

To save time since I'm not going to be here all night replying to all posts, I'll just skimp,

@Levin, while I don't appreciate people swearing to try and get a point across, I can see where you're coming from and the argument is valid, so I won't continue on there.

@FE3player, my definition of useless is low tier, thus almost useless is middle tier, so no I didn't want Julian in low tier, I wanted him in mid, and I'm going off B2B's definition of how many enemies there are, not my own, so if you want to argue that, you'll have to bring it up with him.

It's still more useful than 1 more HP healed, which doesn't even make a difference

Still irrelevant, since I'm not comparing Lena to Merric.

Cavaliers are also balancing between two different weapons, so they're not hitting an A in either weapon before Merric does.

Still irrelevant since if cavaliers aren't killing, Merric isn't healing.

sounds fair to me

Still irrelevant since I was arguing for cain and Frey should be next to each other

.

It's hard when you constantly insist on giving Lena a monopoly you KNOW she doesn't deserve.and riff

and wendel

and maria

and anybody who you reclass into a bishop

and generic bishops

Xane, even

Still irrelevant since you're ignoring opportunity costs. If you're training them you're ignoring the fact that the tier list expliclity states they are less useful tier than Lena, and there is absolutely no reason to use three staff users.

Probably not, not definitly not

Still irrelevant since it was in your own assumption. I'm going off what you said.

it's a good thing I don't have to kill off anybody good, or else this might actually be an issue. It is universally known amongst players with more than two licks of common sense that gaidens=good.

Still irrelevant since you're still ignoring the opprotunity costs involved with him that don't apply to lena, making lena obviously the first choice. Its know between anyone with ANY common sense that if you have to pay $100 for one thing, but nothing for the other, you're going to pick the other.

You don't need to. C staves is easy to get.

Still irrelevant since getting C staves with any of the units just mentioned means an opportunity cost, which you have not yet addressed.

Healing 20 times in 20+ chapters is considered babying? Get real.

Using est AT ALL is babying.

I'm not giving extra credit to Est. I'm not giving extra credit to Lena. I'm not giving extra credit to ANYBODY, including Merric. What part of this are you not getting? This is why I say you make things so easy to understand so ridiculously hard.

Still irrelevant, since you're ignoring the fact that using est requires a cost, and using Lena (and the other 3 I mentioned) does not, and the only unit who pays off their cost is Merric. Thus Merric and the others 4 are the only units who can be used, logically, in the final mission for warp-rushing. Thus these 5 units DO deserve credit, since they are the ONLY rational option, and the only rational option is obviously the one that should be assumed for a tier list.

Except she's NOT the second best. As far as warp staff using go, Boa, Merric, Lena, and generic bishop #529623734736 are all tied.

That's not irrelevant that's incorrect. Learn a thing or two about opportunity costs and make that claim again.

So repairing thunderbolt is a waste of hammerene. I'm glad you agree. kthx next case.

To correct you 1- you said you can't waste hammerne, so to agree with this would make you a hypocrite. 2- I said thunderbolt will not be useful in THIS mission.

Whoa, what's this?! So does Zagaro! Zagaro for bottom tier!

Obviously a good analogy, once you learn basic logic I'll reply to this statement.

which goes away the second he gets the steel sword

in the earlygame he sucks...for like, 4 chapters, tops. Then he gets the steel sword and has great offense throughout the rest of the game.

Those same 4 chapters where cavaliers are struggling to find enough units to kill and can't get 8 WEXP over 4 turns between them? This is why I baited the question, to show how blatantly contradictory your arguments are.

So, essentially, your only argument for Athena sucking is that she's not as good as three of the highest ranked units in the game.

Then why is she middle tier? Exactly. Because your tier list makes no sense. In trying to defend her middle tier position, you've self-proclaimed she's the almost equilivant to the best units in the game, has no relevant opp. costs, is still less useful than a unit that by your own admission comes underlevelled, and still deserves to stay exactly where she is? Thank you for walking right into that.

but you warped chapter 8. How is he getting any WEXP in chapter 8?

.........

..............

......................Yes, I know. That was the point.

[Mekkah]

thus almost useless is middle tier

That's not how I see it. The way it goes for me (assuming Top/High/Up Mid/Low Mid/Low/Bottom): if you are more of a help than a hindrance, you are something between Upper Mid and Top. If you are more if a hindrance than a help, you are something between Lower Mid and Bottom. Depending on how much you suck/rule, your position changes.

Thus, someone who would be "useless" would be nothing but Bottom tier, and "almost useless" sounds like Low or Bottom to me (nobody is truly useless, though a lot of people come close).

[Rodykitty]

@FE3player, my definition of useless is low tier, thus almost useless is middle tier, so no I didn't want Julian in low tier, I wanted him in mid, and I'm going off B2B's definition of how many enemies there are, not my own, so if you want to argue that, you'll have to bring it up with him.

"I'll just make up my own definition of useless to ensure I sound right."

I have never seen a tier list where mid tier was useless, and this tier list certainly doesn't list doesn't assume mid tier characters as useless.

I'm sorry, but this belief of yours that anything below top/high tier is useless is just pure and utter bias, and shows complete lack of understanding of what tiers are in the first place, and how characters are ranked.

Still irrelevant, since I'm not comparing Lena to Merric.

This whole argument has been about Lena and Merric.

Still irrelevant since I was arguing for cain and Frey should be next to each other

It's impossible for them to be next to each other. Frey is better, even if slightly.

Still irrelevant since getting C staves with any of the units just mentioned means an opportunity cost, which you have not yet addressed.

He's trying to make a point. If these units, with their late joining time and starting with E rank in staves can get C easily, then Merric has little problem getting a C. This is simple logic here.

That's not irrelevant that's incorrect. Learn a thing or two about opportunity costs and make that claim again.

He's not saying they're tied overall. He's saying she's not better at Warp Staffing in specific.

Thus these 5 units DO deserve credit, since they are the ONLY rational option, and the only rational option is obviously the one that should be assumed for a tier list.

There's a whole 24 + Gaiden chapters before the Final Chapter. We have to take usefulness of units within all of those chapters into account as well. Edited January 9, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Dr. Tarrasque]

To save time since I'm not going to be here all night replying to all posts, I'll just skimp,

@Levin, while I don't appreciate people swearing to try and get a point across, I can see where you're coming from and the argument is valid, so I won't continue on there.

It was just use of the word "shit" twice and it wasn't out of anger, towards you or intentionally offensive in any way. But anyway, I apologize.

As for the gaiden characters, I don't think their opportunity cost are that high. You're just killing all but 15 units... unless you're some1 who's constantly switching between 20 characters, this requisite is pretty moot since all but the 15 units you're keeping alive will pretty much mean nothing. At least Generics are bringing in some money (in the form of the Iron weapons they come with) which is pretty much better than just having some unit alive who will deny some EXP for those that you are using.

[Mekkah]

I agree that killing off units that take you to gaidens is hardly something worth worrying about. You can kill a huge portion of them before you even get the battle preparations menu, and it's not like going to gaidens is a negative, since you get all kinds of EXP from it, as well as an extra forging opportunity.

[Rodykitty]

Another thing is that they aren't blocking out solely bad characters, they're only blocking out characters you choose not to use, which is decided on a playthrough basis and not tiers.

[Lord Raven]

I think Athena's requirements should penalize her more than the rest simply because you have a lot less units to use at this time, not sure if that counts as a double standard or not. The later on Gaiden chars shouldn't be too badly punished I guess, with some of them removing the punishment... though having less than 15 available isn't too bad because that's about how many slots are available so punishing none could be cool... I dunno where I stand s ince I stated this point so I'll wait to hear on someone else (who understands opportunity costs, by the way; I have yet to hear what B2DB thinks on opportunity costs anyway).

[Mekkah]

I don´t see what´s the problem with only having 15 or less people alive by the end of Ch6, unless you´re using garbage units on ourpose.

1. Marth

2. Abel

3. Cain

4. Jagen

5. Sheeda

6. Oguma

7. Barst

8. Julian

9. Rena

10. Merric

11. Wolf

12. Sedgar

13. Hardin

14. Wendel

(I actually forgot Frey when I wrote it down, but I enlighten later that there´s plenty of play room in this list anyway)

This leaves one spot for some more mediocre unit like Darros, Navarre, Wrys or Castor if you feel like using one of them. And you can always kill off Jagen, since he´s kinda had his prime by now, and Julian can be replaced by Marth and his Fire Emblem as well if you wish. What´s more, everyone not on this list is forced on the map at some point, allowing you to off them smoothly.

And this is assuming that you are, for some reason, using a 15 or more man army unit in Normal Mode. I don´t know about you, but I have never found it practical to use massive armies in Normal Mode, where almost anyone, especially characters worth a dime, can just be put into a forest and solo those armies of six units. I´ve had 60% of my army standing doing pretty much nothing simply because overall, there´s very few enemies on the maps, and the ones that are there are highly concentrated.

Not only that, but this is also assuming that you would be using such a large team composed of early joiners only. While temps like Jeigan and Wendel are understandable, I see no reason to gimp yourself like this when there´s many good units available later on as well.

On a Hard Mode tier list, I would be more understanding for a penalty to Athena, but in Normal Mode, nah.

[Dat Nick]

You still don't have to off anybody that good for C6x. I just gave a whole slew of characters that join you up to C6 that you can do without.

By the way, since Shiida sucks, off her from Mekkah's list and it REALLY doesn't matter. Jagen's worn out his good by now, too.

And on Hard, Hard 5 anyway, the circumstances for Athena are even BETTER. Yeah, you have to keep Shiida alive now, at least for a few chapters, but Frey's out of the picture, and units who could have passed as "good" on NM are now unusable. Perfect example: Darros, and to a lesser extent, Vyland.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Mekkah]

By the way, since Shiida sucks, off her from Mekkah's list

I was assuming the player wants to keep her around for recruiting Jake (and maybe Roger).

And on Hard, Hard 5 anyway, the circumstances for Athena are even BETTER.

I agree, and they weren't even that bad on NM to begin with.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Mekkah

[Dat Nick]

Well yeah, if. Ballistias aren't that great outside of H5. On Normal they're next to pointless, so I would rather keep Cord alive rather than worrying about Jake. Another reason to keep Shiida alive on H5, though.

Still plenty of room, anyway.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[slax]

"I'll just make up my own definition of useless to ensure I sound right."

I have never seen a tier list where mid tier was useless, and this tier list certainly doesn't list doesn't assume mid tier characters as useless.

I'm sorry, but this belief of yours that anything below top/high tier is useless is just pure and utter bias, and shows complete lack of understanding of what tiers are in the first place, and how characters are ranked.

Quote me where I said middle tier was useless.

I clearly said middle tier was *almost* useless. why? Because they are better than the people in low tier, but not good enough to be in high tier. Does that make them useless? No. Does it mean that if they had one more disadvantage, they'd be useless? Yes. Thus, they are "almost" useless. There's a reason I emphasised the almost. (even excepting the fact that you're only going to be using, like 12 units anyway)

@ evenyone about opportunity costs, I don't think opportunity costs for Athena are bad enough to effect her tier position, the reason I brought it up was to get B2B to overstate Athena's usefulness. What I noticed B2B was doing was immediately saying everything I said was wrong, so I figured the only way I could point out the logical inconsistencies in his list was to get him to say one thing, then get him to argue the opposite.

ie: Saying 3 cavaliers can't get 9 WEXP between them over 4 turns and then saying Julian can get higher weapon levels, even though this would thin out the exp pool to barely 1 wexp per unit per turn, and maps taking like 10 turns, two of which aren't going to attack in (let alone the normal exp involved with this, which he already said was not high enough)

ie: saying that Athena's opportunity costs are irrelevant and that Catria comes too late, but still having Catria above Athena, despite very similar averages

ie: saying that a healer taking two hits means the healer is inferior and then arguing that it is practical to use est as a healer, with no costs involved.

ie: arguing Cain's speed disadvantage puts him below Abel, but ignoring the fact that Frey also has a speed disadvantage, and putting Frey above Abel.

So if you want my true opinion, no, Athena's opportunity cost isn't very high, but it's the only thing I can think of that would put her in middle tier, since she's such a good unit otherwise, especially considering you have no good fliers that early on. The other sidequest unit's opportunity are also more or less irrelevant, since you would have already gotten your team and excess units do nothing to help you. Except that the sidequest units themselves are excess units as well, so by the same token, they have no inherent use either (barring Athena, and possibly Nagi, though really, Nagi can only be used for one chapter anyway, so her utility must be low by default)

All I really want to see in this list is consistent logic, even if my own personal opinions are debunked, so long as they are debunked with consistent logic, that's fine by me.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The other Gaiden units are of some use actually... Horace makes a decent midgame tank if you should need one (specially in H5 if you're not using Wolf and Sedgar as Generals). Etzel could pretty much replace a magic user you had as utility, like Wendel for example for some extra damage. Ymir, as previously stated several times in this thread, makes a decent endgame filler... in H5, not getting doubled as Hero and being able to use Pole Axe when he comes in is.

Fillers basically, if you're experienced enough to use the gaiden characters effectively, the few you're training have more EXP for them and it's less necessary to train others.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Levin

[Dat Nick]

ie: saying that Athena's opportunity costs are irrelevant and that Catria comes too late, but still having Catria above Athena, despite very similar averages

Hm. Good point....And on Normal, the durability lead won't matter much at all. Athena and Catria switched, perhaps?

ie: saying that a healer taking two hits means the healer is inferior

When said other healer has nothing else but one HP heal to compensate? Yes, it IS inferior. Now, if Lena's level lead actually gave her a lead in something relevant for a healer...

arguing that it is practical to use est as a healer, with no costs involved.

See, there you go again. I NEVER said it was practical to use Est as a healer. But it's entirely possible to get her up to C staves in seven chapters, at the very least far more likely and useful than any other use she has. And if it's even plausible for her, imagine how it is for Etzel. And Wendel, and anybody who can use a staff. If you reclassed Captain Gordin into Curate, then he'll be able to use the warp staff for SURE, and you keep acting like the only one I refuse to credit for the warp staff is Lena. I give credit for EVERYBODY who can use it [Ellis should probably move out of bottom, speaking of that], but that credit is equal, so it does nothing to bolster Lena's position. Just like it's not bolstering Boa's position.

ie: arguing Cain's speed disadvantage puts him below Abel, but ignoring the fact that Frey also has a speed disadvantage, and putting Frey above Abel.

...I already said Abel above Frey. Pay attention.

I clearly said middle tier was *almost* useless.

Which is just as ridiclious. Somebody with Athena's usability is NOT almost useless, and look where she is? ...Or is going to be. She was top of upper mid last time I checked. Now, if you were referring to LOWER middle tier...

Edited January 10, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Rodykitty]

I clearly said middle tier was *almost* useless. why? Because they are better than the people in low tier, but not good enough to be in high tier. Does that make them useless? No. Does it mean that if they had one more disadvantage, they'd be useless? Yes. Thus, they are "almost" useless. There's a reason I emphasised the almost. (even excepting the fact that you're only going to be using, like 12 units anyway)

Which is still biased and lacking of understanding of tier lists. By saying that one more disadvantage would make them useless is also lacking understanding of why they are there in the first place.

ie: Saying 3 cavaliers can't get 9 WEXP between them over 4 turns and then saying Julian can get higher weapon levels, even though this would thin out the exp pool to barely 1 wexp per unit per turn, and maps taking like 10 turns, two of which aren't going to attack in (let alone the normal exp involved with this, which he already said was not high enough)

Cavaliers are still getting weapon levels like Julian can (and nobody said he needed to get high weapon levels anyway, just a D to use Steel Swords), the argument is that they're not getting them as fast as healers.

@ evenyone about opportunity costs, I don't think opportunity costs for Athena are bad enough to effect her tier position, the reason I brought it up was to get B2B to overstate Athena's usefulness. What I noticed B2B was doing was immediately saying everything I said was wrong, so I figured the only I could point out the logical inconsistencies in his list was to get him to say one thing, then get him to argue the opposite.

So your goal, is instead of providing good arguments, is to try and get him to say something dumb? This is not how debates are won.

[Dat Nick]

Now where the HELL did that list go? Give me a second.

EDIT: Damnit, I give. Help, please?

EDIT MARK 2: Nevermind. Found it.

Adjustments made:

Abel>Frey, topping the cavs

Athena up, Catria down

Elice out of bottom

EDIT 33 AND A THIRD:

Hardain down

Rickard down

Marth above Barst

Top:

Merric

Sedgar

Xane

High:

Wolf

Abel

Frey

Cain

Marth

Barst

Upper-Mid:

Nabarl

Ogma

Athena

Hardain

Darros

Julian

Nagi

Mid:

Catria

Lena

Cord

Vyland

Caesar

Palla

Jake

Beck

Tiki

Lower-Mid:

Castor

Matthis

Radd

Horace

Minerva

Bantu

Shiida

Rickard

Draug

Roger

Gotoh

Low:

Wendell

Jagen

Wyrs

Maria

Boah

Etzel

Jeorge

Dolph

Ymir

Linde

Elice

Bottom:

Gordin

Astram

Samson

Lorenz

Roshea

Arran

Midia

Macellan

Norne

Bord

Tomas

Fail:

Est

Seems Slax's brilliant logic has backfired.

anyway, catria could go lower, but that's open to debate

Edited January 10, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Rodykitty]

Frey is still shown as being above Abel. Simple edit should fix that.

[Lord Raven]

Hardin > Ogma? What?

Ogma has better Strength, comes earlier, and a lot less HP. The only thing Hardin has over him is more Spd (ha, and you even said so yourself that AS is irrelevant) and Skl. I think Hardin has only a slight lead in defense overall as well, which doesn't make up for tons more HP and Strength.

Same argument applies to Nabarl vs Ogma. I think Ogma > both of them.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Bantu, Maria and Rickard need to go down and Dolph could move up, what are the reasons for their current placement?

EDIT: Why is Gordin >>> Norne?

Edited January 10, 2009 by Levin

[Mekkah]

I'm interested in getting Marth above Barst. I didn't look into their combat parameters right now, but Barst would have to get a pretty darn huge lead for those to cancel out Marth's advantages. Rapier (forgable, too - and before you say it's a waste of money, it works for bosses at the very least), Fire Emblem, doesn't take up a unit slot, and lategame he has an infinite use weapon that rapes Mamkutes and allows him to heal himself when idle, whereas Barst has to resort to a (forged) Dragon Axe or the Hauteclere. And Marth wins availability, of course, and gives everyone and their mom support bonuses.

[Rodykitty]

I totally agree with Marth > Barst, especially when you consider that Marth's stat averages are nearly identical to the Paladins in all of the key areas so he's actually a really good unit statistically.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Good point. I think he may even be able to move above Abel.

@Mekkah: Eh... Dragon Axe?

Edited January 10, 2009 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

I actually don't see him going above the Social Knights, because they get lances (far better ranged weapon) and better movement.

[Dat Nick]

Ogma has better Strength, comes earlier, and a lot less HP. The only thing Hardin has over him is more Spd (ha, and you even said so yourself that AS is irrelevant) and Skl. I think Hardin has only a slight lead in defense overall as well, which doesn't make up for tons more HP and Strength.

Same argument applies to Nabarl vs Ogma. I think Ogma > both of them.

I say Hardain yes, Nabarl, no. Nabarl's jointime isn't that much worse than Ogma, and once Nabarl starts doubling consistantly [doesn't take that long] then he's totally creaming Ogma. More HP [i believe so anyway], more def, more move, and he has the upper hand in the WTA until Oguma promotes.

Bantu, Maria and Rickard need to go down and Dolph could move up, what are the reasons for their current placement?

Bantu, he can do a half decent job at playing uberunit fromt he time you get him to the rest of the game. That's better than what most of Low can say.

Maria, why? Staves>Bottom tier. She's being punished enough, really.

Rickard, sure.

Dolph, don't see why. He's not really that hard to train, sure, but you don't really get a whole lot out of it. Unless I'm missing something.

I'm interested in getting Marth above Barst. I didn't look into their combat parameters right now, but Barst would have to get a pretty darn huge lead for those to cancel out Marth's advantages. Rapier (forgable, too - and before you say it's a waste of money, it works for bosses at the very least), Fire Emblem, doesn't take up a unit slot, and lategame he has an infinite use weapon that rapes Mamkutes and allows him to heal himself when idle, whereas Barst has to resort to a (forged) Dragon Axe or the Hauteclere. And Marth wins availability, of course, and gives everyone and their mom support bonuses.

I really doubt Barts will need to resort to that to kill mamkutes. His attack is w1n. Very win.

Rest, however, is valid. Marth>Barst it is.

I actually don't see him going above the Social Knights, because they get lances (far better ranged weapon) and better movement.

Well, that's only because Barst's weapon rank kinda sucks. From the minute his hit stops failing all the way to Endgame, Axes become the best weapon [as always].

By the by, no way Marth>Cavs is happening. Yes, Marth has the falchion. The cavs have wyrmslayers and dragonpikes. 45 uses for each, totalling to 90 uses overall, is MORE than plenty. And that's just counting the ones in the secret shop. Never mind the fact that the cavs have been winning stats the whole game.

Anyway, as for Gordin vs Norne...looking at how bad Gordin's offense stinks pre-promotion, maybe it is close. I was thinking that since Gordin's the better unit once he gets promoted, it would cancel out, but then again, I guess not. Of course, you could always promote Gordin at lvl 10, and he'll still probably hit the magic 19 spd, and win durability over a 20 Norne. Either way, I don't think they should go a tier apart. Gordin also does have a very SLIGHT EXP lead if you choose to use him [because peg reinforcments hate arrows]. Not all that relevant, but it's there.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah