So...let's talk tiers.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage....;topic=46879160

[Lord Raven]

Rath > Karel? Really?

It's not slightly worse, it's significantly worse.

I wasn't talking about Karel. It was a hypothetical other, made up unit.

Harken is NOT irrelevant. Harken is the main reason why most people DON'T get Karel.

[01:18:14] <&quanta> oh yeah, harken > karel doesn't affect karel's position

[01:18:24] <&quanta> otherwise you'd have to penalize harken for not getting karel

[01:20:12] <&quanta> it's like

[01:20:18] <&quanta> Harken is worth A-B

[01:20:23] <&quanta> and Karel is worth B-A

[01:20:44] <&quanta> so the difference between their worths is then double counted to be 2A-2B

[01:20:48] <&quanta> instead of A-B

[01:21:03] <+Nathan_Graves> I don't get it

[01:21:11] <+Nathan_Graves> so you're pretty much saying harken > karel?

[01:21:12] <&quanta> the thing is if you buy into that logic, then Karel should instantly be the worst character in the game

[01:21:16] <+Nathan_Graves> because I don't disagree with anyone

[01:21:20] <+Nathan_Graves> when they say that

[01:21:24] <&quanta> and Harken has to move down too

[01:21:47] <&quanta> No, I'm saying that if you lower Karel because you can't get Harken if you use him, then Harken has to move down too

[01:22:01] <&quanta> whereas you'll see that people NEVER penalize Harken for some reason

[01:23:45] <&quanta> now they are making no sense

[01:24:59] <&quanta> that's like arguing that blueberry muffins have to move down the list of tastiest muffins because they are worse than poppyseed muffins which are ALREADY HIGHER anyways

[01:25:19] <&quanta> and their brilliant counterargument, is "well, blueberries cause cancer"

How are you even sure most people don't get Karel, and how do you sure it's for that reason alone? Stop making generalizations, you don't have anything to back it up!

Some supports>No supports

Some supports you'll probably never get = no supports.

Open for debate, but nowhere above Low mid.

That's cool.

Because he's considered one of the best units in the game. This is almost as extreme as saying Titania doesn't have a high chance of being played, and that Est, Jeigan, Tomas and the like don't have a low chance of being played.

We're going around in circles here.

It has nothing to do with who is more likely to be used. A far more relevant method of finding that is polling every FE DS player who has ever owned the game and written down how often each character was used on every single playthrough ever. If you can't do that? Guess what, you can't judge who is most used or most likely to be used.

And using him means I CAN'T use Harken, who WOULD have been complete rapage for the next few chapters.

But you haven't been using Harken, so how is it hurting the team?

[01:35:26] <+Nathan_Graves> in order for Karel to hurt the team, it implies

[01:35:31] <+Nathan_Graves> A) Harken is being used prior

[01:35:40] <+Nathan_Graves> B) Harken implodes when you recruit Karel

[01:35:53] <+Nathan_Graves> neither is true, because A) is presumptuous or, fo rhtat matter, impossible

[01:35:59] <+Nathan_Graves> and B) that doesn't even happen

And of course, there are certian instances where this cancels out. The laguz royals are on about the same level of win. Alan and Samson, nobody gives a **** about losing the other one. Geitz and Wallace....same story.

That's a pretty double standard you've got going there.

I'm guessing because other units are available for most of the game?

You can read me like the internet.

Nagi is helping to do something that the upper mid characters wouldn't be able to do (you said yourself that max stat characters can't one round the fire dragon with a dragon slaying weapon).

And Nagi can't do that for the chapters prior. Because she doesn't exist. Tiki does, however. But I think Tiki should be lower, anyway.

The top tier characters are doing a better job at what the upper mid characters are doing.

Fucking irrelevant! Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

And Nagi can't do that for the chapters prior. Because she doesn't exist. Tiki does, however. But I think Tiki should be lower, anyway.

The problem is, Tiki doesn't really have many uses before the final chapter. Even on Chapter 24, you can use warps to take out the boss, which even if you're not ranking, allows the reinforcements to stop coming. Pure Waters will allow you to fight mages easier (and they all die in one round, if not one hit.)

[Lord Raven]

You can warp to take out any boss. Just limit the game to using Rena, Marth, and Nagi if you're concerned with warp staffs, and make everyone else bottom because that's the fastest way to play the game anyway.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[quanta]

Because he's considered one of the best units in the game. This is almost as extreme as saying Titania doesn't have a high chance of being played, and that Est, Jeigan, Tomas and the like don't have a low chance of being played.

Harken one of the best? Since when? He comes too late for that. He's good, but not of the best. All the cavvies are better than him. Raven is better, Guy is better. Your healers are better. Erk is better. Hector is better. Ninian is better. Others are better than him too, but I'll just stop here.

And the chance Titania will be played is probably lower than you would assume. Just because a character is good doesn't mean they will be played (although obviously the premise is that better characters will get used more often). Titania is overrated as fuck anyways (She's really good just like every pally in FE9, but consistently topping out so many lists when she's significantly beat by better characters later on is a joke). The beginning of FE9 is easy, and by the time it's worth using her because she won't be a huge EXP hog, it's not as relevant as people pretend (I love the vastly inflated claims of how fast she levels on HM in FE9; I lost the figures I got when soloing the first several chapters with her, but she gains less than one level per chapter if you let her kill everything on the field for the first 4 or so chapters IIRC). FE10 Titania on the other hand might be better near the end, but is certainly nowhere near essential and suffers due to lowish caps.

And using him means I CAN'T use Harken, who WOULD have been complete rapage for the next few chapters.

If you do this, you have to also penalize Harken for not letting you use Karel. It has to go both ways. So if Harken is worth A alone and Karel worth B you could rank them according to that, OR if you penalize Karel for meaning you don't get Harken then now Harken is ranked according to the worth A-B and Karel B-A. Problem is this makes Harken drop quite a bit, and Karel automatically among the worst in the game (the logic is valid; but I've never seen anyone actually apply it correctly is my point. Only Karel is ever penalized.). It's basically irrelevant to penalize each for excluding use of the other because you have a limited number of slots per chapter anyways, and it's unlikely that at that point you would use both even if you could.

Anyways, the point is if you account for opportunity costs (that means the trade-offs due to being unable to do something else) in one case, you have to do it in all cases, which means tiering should be much more affected by slots availabe, and team composition, and funding.

[Rodykitty]

You can warp to take out any boss. Just limit the game to using Rena, Marth, and Nagi if you're concerned with warp staffs, and make everyone else bottom because that's the fastest way to play the game anyway.

Well, the tier list has to take everyone into account, and judging everyone's usefulness.

On that particular boss, it isn't just warp staffing, but you can also send flyers over there to kill the boss, or crossing the mountain. There are ways to get the Mamkutes to stop coming. Tiki is useful, yes, but she has to level up just like any other unit and thus loses points for needing to be babied while others are already capable of handling Ch. 24 fine.

[Lord Raven]

Well, the tier list has to take everyone into account, and judging everyone's usefulness.

Then why is Nagi > upper mid? She's not doing THAT much in the final chapter that everyone else isn't already doing. Other than killing dragons. Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

The beginning of FE9 is easy, and by the time it's worth using her because she won't be a huge EXP hog, it's not as relevant as people pretend

Is this a good place to use the "Titania hogging EXP is irrelevant because she starts out at a higher level anyway and if anyone else got that EXP he/she would still be preventing other units from getting it?"

Anyways, the point is if you account for opportunity costs (that means the trade-offs due to being unable to do something else) in one case, you have to do it in all cases, which means tiering should be much more affected by slots availabe, and team composition, and funding.

Yes. If you're factoring in the opportunity costs of fielding a limited number of units per chapter, for example, you might as well be able to say that low tier characters should be lower because they prevent high tier characters from being used, which is a pointless argument already reflected by the tier list. In the same vein, you would be able to say that Karel should be lower because he prevents Harken from being used when Karel is already lower than Harken, which also doesn't make sense.

Edited December 21, 2008 by dondon151

[Rodykitty]

Then why is Nagi > upper mid? She's not doing THAT much in the final chapter that everyone else isn't already doing. Other than killing dragons.

She has to be above SOMEONE, and is going to be above someone no matter what. She's useful enough to not be bottom tier. Bottom of high/top of up-mid is a good place, because she's above the characters she needs to be above in that position (except Lena, whom I concede and ask to be moved up).

Edited December 21, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

In the same vein, you would be able to say that Karel should be lower because he prevents Harken from being used when Karel is already lower than Harken, which also doesn't make sense.

Exactly. He's arguing against that.

He's also saying that Harken being used also should detract from Harken's usefulness because it prevents Karel from being used. It should work both ways regardless of quality, not just one way because something's better. The latter is hypocritical, inconsistent, double standard, whatever you wish to call it.

She has to be above SOMEONE, and is going to be above someone no matter what. She's useful enough to not be bottom tier. Bottom of high/top of up-mid is a good place, because she's above the characters she needs to be above in that position (except Lena, whom I concede and ask to be moved up).

Then put her above the guys doing below average throughout the game, not the up-mid crowd that's doing above average throughout the entire game. Put her above Gotoh if anything (I think Low is a bit too low, but Up mid is too high). Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

Exactly. He's arguing against that.

He's also saying that Harken being used also should detract from Harken's usefulness because it prevents Karel from being used. It should work both ways regardless of quality, not just one way because something's better. The latter is hypocritical, inconsistent, double standard, whatever you wish to call it.

Yeah I was providing a supporting argument =_= (apologies if this is a misinterpretation of your post lol)

Edited December 21, 2008 by dondon151

[Rodykitty]

I'm not the one that writes the tier list. And I already explained why I feel that she doesn't need to go below upper mid, because she's good on her own accord, not making characters below her worse.

Also, I suggest penalizing both Harken and Karel rather than penalizing neither. You're losing something no matter what, just that judging by arguments Harken loses a bit less. Karel probably makes up for the penalty for helping turn count anyway.

Edited December 21, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

I suggest penalizing neither, and only penalizing both if you're going to penalize one for not letting the other exist so as not to create a double standard of sorts.

And I already explained why I feel that she doesn't need to go below upper mid, because she's good on her own accord, not making characters below her worse.

Same applies to Gotoh! and you're against his moving up too Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Same applies to Gotoh! and you're against his moving up too

I never said anything about Gotoh's position. He probably should move up, just not as high as Nagi.

I suggest penalizing neither, and only penalizing both if you're going to penalize one for not letting the other exist so as not to create a double standard of sorts.

I suggest penalizing both mostly because one gets you a Brave Sword and one gets you a Wo Dao, and because of different requirements to get. One is still going to be better than the other regardless. Edited December 21, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

I'd move them both down due to their not existing for 97+% of the game. i agree helping out in the final chapter on their own accord > being below average for the entire game, but upper mid is doing at least average for the entire game... so they're around for longer than nagi/gotoh and helping out for the time they're there.

I suggest penalizing both mostly because one gets you a Brave Sword and one gets you a Wo Dao, and because of different requirements to get. One is still going to be better than the other regardless.

Harken > Karel, Brave Sword > Wo Dao but I would still penalize neither unless you really want karel to suffer for not allowing you to receive harken... in which case you'd also penalize harken

PROTIP: italics probably mean they're editing a post

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

I'd move them both down due to their not existing for 97+% of the game. i agree helping out in the final chapter on their own accord > being below average for the entire game, but upper mid is doing at least average for the entire game... so they're around for longer than nagi/gotoh and helping out for the time they're there.

Fine. We'll see what BB says since he's the one making the tier list. I absolutely do not see her below some chars in Up Mid though, at all. Below Maji, but that's about it.

Harken > Karel, Brave Sword > Wo Dao but I would still penalize neither unless you really want karel to suffer for not allowing you to receive harken... in which case you'd also penalize harken

I don't even suggest that big of a penalty... It's not like Karel is suddenly complete garbage, just has some flaws that are there in-game.

[Lord Raven]

i pretty much agree with your point about karel, which is pretty much the point

BB even admits himself, but harken is not a factor which is the key idea

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Sylvan]

One thing about Tiki/Nagi. I think it is possible to get both. . . . Give Tiki the Falchion, and kill her. Get Nagi, then revive Tiki with Aum. Falchion should be in the inventory. I haven't tried this. But just food for thought if it matters.

[Rodykitty]

i pretty much agree with your point about karel, which is pretty much the point

BB even admits himself, but harken is not a factor which is the key idea

No. I think Harken is a factor for Karel. Just like Karel is a factor for Harken. Not penalizing either is ignoring in-game reality, so penalize them both for not getting the other respective character. It is just that Harken apparently gets the better end of the deal.

[GenG]

One thing about Tiki/Nagi. I think it is possible to get both. . . . Give Tiki the Falchion, and kill her. Get Nagi, then revive Tiki with Aum. Falchion should be in the inventory. I haven't tried this. But just food for thought if it matters.

Yeah, it works. When I'm prepared to go to 24x, I give her pearls to Marth and put them in front of the boss of 24, then reviving her in 24x. I have used this trick in my 3 playthroughs because Tiki owns so much.

[Lord Raven]

No. I think Harken is a factor for Karel. Just like Karel is a factor for Harken. Not penalizing either is ignoring in-game reality, so penalize them both for not getting the other respective character. It is just that Harken apparently gets the better end of the deal.

Getting Harken = not getting the Wo Dao or Karel, Getting Karel = not getting the Brave Sword or Harken. But I don't see how this should penalize either in the first place when you're meant to be judging performance.

[Dat Nick]

I wasn't talking about Karel. It was a hypothetical other, made up unit.

Then hypothetical unit's position would lower somewhat.

How are you even sure most people don't get Karel, and how do you sure it's for that reason alone? Stop making generalizations, you don't have anything to back it up!

Yes, I DO have something to back it up, it's called "common sense". Harken's far better. Obviously Higher tiered players have a better chance of being played.

But you haven't been using Harken, so how is it hurting the team?

Because I CAN'T get Harken, who would have been far better off.

He's good, but not of the best. All the cavvies are better than him. Raven is better, Guy is better. Your healers are better. Erk is better. Hector is better. Ninian is better. Others are better than him too, but I'll just stop here.

High tier sure as hell means you don't suck.

And the chance Titania will be played is probably lower than you would assume. Just because a character is good doesn't mean they will be played (

...This is not what I said.

(although obviously the premise is that better characters will get used more often)

This IS what I said.

If you do this, you have to also penalize Harken for not letting you use Karel.

Except nobody cares because Harken's a great unit and Karel's a below average unit. Oh, by the way, Harken hurts the tactics ranking by like, 2, 3 turns, tops? Well, Karel gives your funds rank the bird himself. Funds is debatably harder to S than tactics, otherwise Dart/Farina wouldn't be so low.

you might as well be able to say that low tier characters should be lower because they prevent high tier characters from being used,

Except I can still use said high tier unit as long as said low tier unit's recruitment doesn't shut him out.

And whut? Units are better than Titania later on? By like what, 2, 3 points in the relevant areas tops? Also remember that she's hitting 20, everybody else hits 20/10. And her non-paladin competition lacks Sol.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

Yes, I DO have something to back it up, it's called "common sense". Harken's far better. Obviously Higher tiered players have a better chance of being played.

No because about 80% of the people who play FE don't even give a damn about tiers to care about Harken > Karel and play whoever the hell they want anyway. And I end up having Karel a lot more because I plow through that chapter and I can't be fucked to restart to get Harken.

Because I CAN'T get Harken, who would have been far better off.

That's not hurting the team at all! That's just saying the other option is better, not that he's hurting the team. Hurting the team is coming in and costing 50K to promote, or being recruited requires that you kill every single unit you've used prior NOT picking some guy over another, better character.

Except nobody cares because Harken's a great unit and Karel's a below average unit.

This is a double standard and you fucking know it.

Oh, by the way, Harken hurts the tactics ranking by like, 2, 3 turns, tops? Well, Karel gives your funds rank the bird himself. Funds is debatably harder to S than tactics, otherwise Dart/Farina wouldn't be so low.

No, you get loads of Funds throughout the game. 351K worth of Funds throughout the game, probably 250K under realistic conditions. Which leaves you with 170K to spend before you lose your S rank. I'll go into specifics on how it's 351K once I find the post, but I'll wait to see if you ask first.

Tactics is more of a bitch to increase because nobody knows what the requirements actually are off the top of my head. Getting Harken is quite a bit more turns and probably a blow to your funds rank in Jerme's map because it requires you get to the doors a bit later and getting the items a bit later.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Getting Harken = not getting the Wo Dao or Karel, Getting Karel = not getting the Brave Sword or Harken. But I don't see how this should penalize either in the first place when you're meant to be judging performance.

To me, them both being penalized makes more sense than ignoring the whole issue, since this is something that will actually happen in a playthrough based on a player's decision.

It's still avoiding favortism if they're both taken off a point, and the penalty probably isn't even great enough to drop them down any tier spots anyway (you don't need the Brave Sword or either character).

[Lord Raven]

It's avoiding favoritism if both or neither are taken off a point, in my opinion. No in betweens.