Time Inconsistency

[kremelover]

Hi everyone,  I was just wondering if anyone else finds it strange that during the part where, you know who, dies... that Thales is able to save Kronya, despite Byleth activating the time rewind.  It is strange because it is never explained, and unlike Engage, during the chapter where you fight Thales, the player still has all of their divine pulse charges.

[lenticular]

The game is not good at all about thinking about the storyline implications of Divine Pulse actually existing. This isn't the only time that it doesn't really make sense when you think about it, with the game generally either making a ague contrived handwave or just ignoring it entirely. It isn't something that's personally bothered me all that much, but I can understand why it can be jarring for some people. I agree with the fairly common sentiment of hoping that, for future games, IS gives up on trying to come up with some sort of storyline justification for time rewind and just presents it as part of the gameplay UI. Time travel in fiction is hard to do well, and generally won't make much sense unless it's a focal part of the story that the writer has really focused on getting right. Which absolutely wasn't the case in either Three Houses or Engage.

[Acacia Sgt]

Being generous, Thales could've simply been observing from a hiding place, then warped in when he saw Byleth moving to intercept Kronya. This could also explain why Byleth only Divine Pulses once, because they have no way to counter Thales. They don't know from where he's coming from, so he can see what they might try to do to stop Kronya and simply counter that, and trying to stop him means Kronya is free to do as she pleases anyway.

Being generous.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The inconsistencies continue when they explain away the dagger that killed Jeralt. Moleman tech that can't be healed. Despite Jeralt being stabbed inside of what is probably the best medical facility in Fodlan. The same place that Manuela makes a full recovery from a similar dagger a couple chapters earlier. And when you take damage from those Agarthan weapons in-game, you can use the Heal spell on victims no problem.

[Armchair General]

Honestly, I just assumed that she severed an major artery and the dagger was coated with an fast-acting poison or something. But on the other hand, Jeralt  is wearing an suit of chain mail with some armor.

[Jotari]

Forget Jearlt, why can't Byleth divine pulse when he answers the wrong question in a conversation and misses out on getting support points! You know if someone had time travel powers like that they would totally be using it all the time to make them a better conversationalist.

[kremelover]

11 hours ago, lenticular said:

The game is not good at all about thinking about the storyline implications of Divine Pulse actually existing. This isn't the only time that it doesn't really make sense when you think about it, with the game generally either making a ague contrived handwave or just ignoring it entirely. It isn't something that's personally bothered me all that much, but I can understand why it can be jarring for some people. I agree with the fairly common sentiment of hoping that, for future games, IS gives up on trying to come up with some sort of storyline justification for time rewind and just presents it as part of the gameplay UI. Time travel in fiction is hard to do well, and generally won't make much sense unless it's a focal part of the story that the writer has really focused on getting right. Which absolutely wasn't the case in either Three Houses or Engage.

I think divine pulse should just be part of game, but not the story.  It would make things less contradictory.

[kremelover]

Y'all make some good points about the story!

[FlamesOfRagnell]

I also wish they kept away from any sort of time travel in the story. So many problems came of it. The situation you mentioned is probably the least offensive case, though, to be honest.

First of all, Divine Pulse adds nothing to the story. If it was removed, nothing about the course of events would really change. So that begs the question, why even bother writing it in?

Secondly, it introduced new problems. There's this one with Jeralt, although I think you could rationalize it pretty easily as "No matter how many times you Divine Pulse, Thales will always be able to stop you." There's also the case in Azure Moon, where

Spoiler

Rodrigue is stabbed and Byleth doesn't seem to even think about using Divine Pulse despite being right there.

It made an already less-than-good scene fairly ridiculous.

There are other problems that extend even to the game's past events:

Spoiler

Why wasn't Sothis capable of stopping the Agarthans, Nemesis, etc. if she had time travel powers? It would be fair to assume that a fully-grown, non-spirit-stone-heart-mind-entity-thing Sothis would have an even greater version of this power. If the Agarthans and Nemesis were powerful enough to somehow get around Divine Pulse, then how did our heroes ever stand a chance?

 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, FlamesOfRagnell said:

 

  Hide contents

Why wasn't Sothis capable of stopping the Agarthans, Nemesis, etc. if she had time travel powers? It would be fair to assume that a fully-grown, non-spirit-stone-heart-mind-entity-thing Sothis would have an even greater version of this power. If the Agarthans and Nemesis were powerful enough to somehow get around Divine Pulse, then how did our heroes ever stand a chance?

 

Well we actually do know that. Nemesis killed her while she slept. Can't reverse time if you're already dead.

[FlamesOfRagnell]

Spoiler

 

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well we actually do know that. Nemesis killed her while she slept. Can't reverse time if you're already dead.

Ooh I forgot that detail. Was it known that Nemsis was against the Nabateans before he killed her? If so, it would be pretty unbelievable that he wasn't snuffed out before he could have a chance at an assassination [Edit: hard to believe given that Divine Pulse exists, that is]. But I can't remember if his betrayal started with the assassination. 

In any case, why wasn't Divine Pulse inherited by Sothis's direct descendents (i.e. Rhea at least)? Why is it exclusive to Sothis or anyone with her heart? I suppose knowing who the father is would help us with that question, but I don't think we know. Just goes to show that this Divine Pulse stuff is muddy business and would've been better off not in the game.

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by FlamesOfRagnell

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:34 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

Being generous, Thales could've simply been observing from a hiding place, then warped in when he saw Byleth moving to intercept Kronya. This could also explain why Byleth only Divine Pulses once, because they have no way to counter Thales. They don't know from where he's coming from, so he can see what they might try to do to stop Kronya and simply counter that, and trying to stop him means Kronya is free to do as she pleases anyway.

Being generous.

Huh, I always assumed Thales had a "spidey sense" that Kronya was in danger, which caused him to teleport in. But he could've been actively observing - either there, in person, or from afar.

On 8/21/2023 at 11:50 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The inconsistencies continue when they explain away the dagger that killed Jeralt. Moleman tech that can't be healed. Despite Jeralt being stabbed inside of what is probably the best medical facility in Fodlan. The same place that Manuela makes a full recovery from a similar dagger a couple chapters earlier. And when you take damage from those Agarthan weapons in-game, you can use the Heal spell on victims no problem.

All good points. Probably would've been better if they had attributed the incurability to Jeralt's advanced age, and the shock of the attack, rather than particular traits of Athame and their other weapons. In the case of Manuela, though, it's probably the case that Jeritza wasn't trying to kill her. If he were trying, he would've been able to, no problem. Whereas with Kronya, she's very clearly out for blood.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Huh, I always assumed Thales had a "spidey sense" that Kronya was in danger, which caused him to teleport in. But he could've been actively observing - either there, in person, or from afar.

The area was being used by them, so it makes sense if some were still there.

[lenticular]

15 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All good points. Probably would've been better if they had attributed the incurability to Jeralt's advanced age, and the shock of the attack, rather than particular traits of Athame and their other weapons. In the case of Manuela, though, it's probably the case that Jeritza wasn't trying to kill her. If he were trying, he would've been able to, no problem. Whereas with Kronya, she's very clearly out for blood.

It could have been interesting if they'd said that there was fancy Agarthan tech that specifically targeted people with crests/Nabatean blood. They could give it an in-game effect where being hit by these weapons disables your crest for a round or three, and then also explained that Jeralt's old body, bereft of the healing effects of his Crest of Seiros and going into shock as a result, just wasn't able to survive his wound. Whereas Manuela, who was young and healthy and didn't have any Crest to begin with, was no worse off than a wound with a regular weapon. But they didn't.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

44 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The area was being used by them, so it makes sense if some were still there.

Gods, the Monastery's security is so pathetically lax, that I find totally plausible the notion of Thales just chilling there. Maybe enjoying a nice Saghert and Cream in the dining hall.

34 minutes ago, lenticular said:

It could have been interesting if they'd said that there was fancy Agarthan tech that specifically targeted people with crests/Nabatean blood. They could give it an in-game effect where being hit by these weapons disables your crest for a round or three, and then also explained that Jeralt's old body, bereft of the healing effects of his Crest of Seiros and going into shock as a result, just wasn't able to survive his wound. Whereas Manuela, who was young and healthy and didn't have any Crest to begin with, was no worse off than a wound with a regular weapon. But they didn't.

The idea of a "crest-cancelling effect" is a very cool one, especially coming from the Agarthans! Perhaps their Dark Mages could have a "Suppress" spell, with a simar effect? Enemy status staves are essentially non-existent, so it'd be a new threat.

Regarding Jeralt, the big question is, how much information are they willing to reveal about him, at his death? Eagle-eyed players will notice that he has a Major Crest of Seiros, but it's not clear that his child is aware of this - much less, how he acquired it. Likewise for Jeralt's advanced age, although that one is alluded to at a couple points. They definitely could reveal one or both of these details after his death. But if they do so, I hope they give Teach a chance to react to it. Maybe make them start questioning or doubting Jeralt - why didn't he ever tell them? Y'know, stuff to build a relationship that, in the base game, is sorely undercooked.

[lenticular]

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Regarding Jeralt, the big question is, how much information are they willing to reveal about him, at his death? Eagle-eyed players will notice that he has a Major Crest of Seiros, but it's not clear that his child is aware of this - much less, how he acquired it. Likewise for Jeralt's advanced age, although that one is alluded to at a couple points. They definitely could reveal one or both of these details after his death. But if they do so, I hope they give Teach a chance to react to it. Maybe make them start questioning or doubting Jeralt - why didn't he ever tell them? Y'know, stuff to build a relationship that, in the base game, is sorely undercooked.

I think something like this can be fine as something that's only hinted at and is left as something for the alert player to figure out on their own. Like, if Athame had a crest-cancelling effect and then in dialogue someone points out that the wound was more deadly than it should have been and maybe there was something going on with the knife, then I think that we'd have managed to figure out pretty easily what must have happened. Yeah, I might have missed it on a first time playthrough and casual players likely wouldn't pick up on it at all, but I think that's fine. I like storytelling that rewards me for paying attention.

Though you're right that it absolutely could also have worked as a way to expand on the relationship between Byleth and Jeralt, and that could have been great too.

[SnowFire]

The one thing I will say in Divine Pulse's favor - with how most people play Fire Emblem, aka the accept-no-casualties variety, DP helps make it make somewhat more sense that the Ashen Demon's crew always come across mysteriously unscathed and never seem to get hit by fatal critical hits despite being on the front lines of numerous life-and-death scrapes.  Why is everyone so good at surviving?  Unspecified time powers.  Sure.  (Except the people in the battalions, perhaps, but the game shows very little interest in humanizing those battalion durability numbers that go down.  Gonna assume they just run off to the backlines when durability drops.)

Anyway, I think Echoes did it the best (despite being the first try) - Alm explicitly doesn't know how to use the Turnwheel, or even that the Turnwheel is doing anything at all.  It's just an in-setting way of expressing that fate, and save-reloads, are on Alm's side which helps tip the odds in his favor.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Anyway, I think Echoes did it the best (despite being the first try) - Alm explicitly doesn't know how to use the Turnwheel, or even that the Turnwheel is doing anything at all.  It's just an in-setting way of expressing that fate, and save-reloads, are on Alm's side which helps tip the odds in his favor.

It also solves one of the weirder plot beats of the original. Why was this servant of the goddess mila randomly captured half a continent away from Mila's temple, rather than by any of the hundreds of brigands, pirates, and Duma cultists Celica has to cut through on the way to the temple? In Echoes canon, she comes from the same priory as Celica. So that's a bit shorter of a trip. The bonus scene with Jesse further adds context that she absolutely did run into trouble on her journey. Either her luck ran out just short of Ram Village, or Mila's premonition was so spot on that she knew Alm would make it to the thief hangout anyway and save her. Silque would probably say it's the latter case.

Even if Mila's Turnwheel has less story-gameplay inconsistencies in Echoes, I still think its mere mention in the plot can only invite potential disaster. And even back in 2017 my review of the mechanic was "Great idea, put this in every Fire Emblem game, but NEVER mention it in the script". You can't take a plot seriously if the protagonist is a no-limits-specified time traveler. And look what they did! Twice! Does the warriors game have divine pulse? Make that three then.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All good points. Probably would've been better if they had attributed the incurability to Jeralt's advanced age, and the shock of the attack, rather than particular traits of Athame and their other weapons. In the case of Manuela, though, it's probably the case that Jeritza wasn't trying to kill her. If he were trying, he would've been able to, no problem. Whereas with Kronya, she's very clearly out for blood.

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

It could have been interesting if they'd said that there was fancy Agarthan tech that specifically targeted people with crests/Nabatean blood. They could give it an in-game effect where being hit by these weapons disables your crest for a round or three, and then also explained that Jeralt's old body, bereft of the healing effects of his Crest of Seiros and going into shock as a result, just wasn't able to survive his wound. Whereas Manuela, who was young and healthy and didn't have any Crest to begin with, was no worse off than a wound with a regular weapon. But they didn't.

Manuela would make a poor case for young and healthy. She's an alcoholic, for one. And her late night liasons may have picked up some *ahem social diseases. As for age, we can only speculate on life expectancy in Fodlan, but the oldest person we know of is Gilbert at 55. And hanneman at 51 looks like a modern day 65. I'd bet Manuela's 34 is just over the hill. That's certainly the vibe she gives off. If Jeralt were zapped of his crest right now, the only way he'd die before Manuela is because of his violent line of work.

The "Death Knight wasn't actually trying to kill Manuela" argument is tricky. It certainly flies in the face of the name "Death Knight", and I can't think of any potential justification for why he would merely knock out Manuela when she was a witness. They didn't seem primed to kidnap her either. The best answer to this scene is probably the Death Knight is just really bad at his job. When you use a +30 crit weapon, you expect to one shot. This time he didn't. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

It also solves one of the weirder plot beats of the original. Why was this servant of the goddess mila randomly captured half a continent away from Mila's temple, rather than by any of the hundreds of brigands, pirates, and Duma cultists Celica has to cut through on the way to the temple? In Echoes canon, she comes from the same priory as Celica. So that's a bit shorter of a trip. The bonus scene with Jesse further adds context that she absolutely did run into trouble on her journey. Either her luck ran out just short of Ram Village, or Mila's premonition was so spot on that she knew Alm would make it to the thief hangout anyway and save her. Silque would probably say it's the latter case.

Even if Mila's Turnwheel has less story-gameplay inconsistencies in Echoes, I still think its mere mention in the plot can only invite potential disaster. And even back in 2017 my review of the mechanic was "Great idea, put this in every Fire Emblem game, but NEVER mention it in the script". You can't take a plot seriously if the protagonist is a no-limits-specified time traveler. And look what they did! Twice! Does the warriors game have divine pulse? Make that three then.

Are you suggesting Silque was using Mila's Turnwheel itself to escape bandits? Because that's my new headcanon.

Also, no, the Warriors games don't have it. Byleth still does in Hopes but it manifests more like time stop to translate it to the medium. The Shadow Dragon NES release had it without connecting it to the plot however. And as I said on the BS Thread I made a month or so ago, Archanea Saga was actually the first game to implement a rewind feature, also not connected to the story.

3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Manuela would make a poor case for young and healthy. She's an alcoholic, for one. And her late night liasons may have picked up some *ahem social diseases. As for age, we can only speculate on life expectancy in Fodlan, but the oldest person we know of is Gilbert at 55. And hanneman at 51 looks like a modern day 65. I'd bet Manuela's 34 is just over the hill. That's certainly the vibe she gives off. If Jeralt were zapped of his crest right now, the only way he'd die before Manuela is because of his violent line of work.

The "Death Knight wasn't actually trying to kill Manuela" argument is tricky. It certainly flies in the face of the name "Death Knight", and I can't think of any potential justification for why he would merely knock out Manuela when she was a witness. They didn't seem primed to kidnap her either. The best answer to this scene is probably the Death Knight is just really bad at his job. When you use a +30 crit weapon, you expect to one shot. This time he didn't. 

She looks pretty healthy. That alcoholism isn't making her put on much weight.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The "Death Knight wasn't actually trying to kill Manuela" argument is tricky. It certainly flies in the face of the name "Death Knight", and I can't think of any potential justification for why he would merely knock out Manuela when she was a witness. They didn't seem primed to kidnap her either. The best answer to this scene is probably the Death Knight is just really bad at his job. When you use a +30 crit weapon, you expect to one shot. This time he didn't. 

I mean, perhaps. I was thinking that either 1) Jeritza chooses not to kill Manuela, out of respect for his co-worker; or, 2) Jerirza catches Manuela by surprise, and his twisted sense of honor prevents him from killing someone outside of a fair fight; or, 3) his orders, whether from Thales or the Flame Emperor, explicitly forbid killing anyone - since doing so would heighten Monastery security to an unacceptable degree. But it's technically possible that Jeritza simply failed to strike lethally.

4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Either her luck ran out just short of Ram Village, or Mila's premonition was so spot on that she knew Alm would make it to the thief hangout anyway and save her. Silque would probably say it's the latter case.

What's funny is, Mila could've actually been wrong here. While the vast majority of players will send Alm into the Thieves' Shrine, he actually doesn't have to. He can proceed east instead, to the map with Leather Shield Mercenary. Shockingly enough, this means that Mila's Turnwheel can technically be missed on Alm's side of the map. If Mila had instead directed Silque to the Southern Outpost, or the Deliverance Hideout, then Alm would be forced to meet her.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

What's funny is, Mila could've actually been wrong here. While the vast majority of players will send Alm into the Thieves' Shrine, he actually doesn't have to. He can proceed east instead, to the map with Leather Shield Mercenary. Shockingly enough, this means that Mila's Turnwheel can technically be missed on Alm's side of the map. If Mila had instead directed Silque to the Southern Outpost, or the Deliverance Hideout, then Alm would be forced to meet her.

Only briefly, I think you're forced to get it at the end of Chapter 1. I've never done it myself (because skipping thieves shrine means you're stuck with villagers for all of Chapter 1, the horror. Actually, wait I probably have done it since I did do a minimum recruit of Alm's side once before), but if you don't then a Priestess (not Silque?) shows up to the castle to give it to Alm. Silque and the Brigand Boss disappear though and you can't just rescue her with Celica.

[Dark Holy Elf]

My interpretation of the end of Chapter 9 scene has always been that Byleth had one shot of Divine Pulse remaining, used it to rewind to kill Kronya, but was intercepted by Thales who was observing to make sure she didn't die / get captured. This doesn't require any fancy superpowers on Thales' end is consistent with everything else the game shows us about divine pulse.

Of course the player might have more shots of divine pulse left than that, but a weakness of pre-defeined cutscenes is they have to go with a canon number. It might have been cool if the cutscene extended to show various things going wrong based on the number of shots of divine pulse the player had left, but that's a pretty extensive use of development time for a single cutscene.

I do agree the specialness of Kronya's dagger feels like a dropped plotpoint. I do think it was probably supposed to have some way to overcome Jeralt's Major Crest badassery, but that's just speculation and certainly the game never elaborates on it.

The Manuela situation isn't comparable. Kronya was trying to kill Jeralt, very clearly. Jeritza was not trying to kill Manuela... in fact, since he was acting under orders of Thales whom he dislikes, he has a good reason to do his job as badly as possible.

[kremelover]

7 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The "Death Knight wasn't actually trying to kill Manuela" argument is tricky. It certainly flies in the face of the name "Death Knight", and I can't think of any potential justification for why he would merely knock out Manuela when she was a witness. They didn't seem primed to kidnap her either. The best answer to this scene is probably the Death Knight is just really bad at his job. When you use a +30 crit weapon, you expect to one shot. This time he didn't. 

lol

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Only briefly, I think you're forced to get it at the end of Chapter 1. I've never done it myself (because skipping thieves shrine means you're stuck with villagers for all of Chapter 1, the horror. Actually, wait I probably have done it since I did do a minimum recruit of Alm's side once before), but if you don't then a Priestess (not Silque?) shows up to the castle to give it to Alm. Silque and the Brigand Boss disappear though and you can't just rescue her with Celica.

Interesting, I did not know that! I tried skipping the Thieves' Shrine once, on a "minimum days" playthrough, but never made it past the Deliverance Hideout (in such a playthrough, it's the only chance to promote folks on Alm's side until Act V, so you're effectively encouraged to stay there forever and grind, but I lost my patience). So I didn't get to see any such scene at the end of Act I.

Interestingly, if you skip over Silque (which I did, on a minimum-recruits playthrough), Celica can visit her in the Thieves' Shrine at the end of Act II. But she can't recruit her. Kind of a shame, as Silque is the only non-forced unit on Alm's side, aside from Kliff and Faye, who would have a reason to join Celica in her quest.

32 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The Manuela situation isn't comparable. Kronya was trying to kill Jeralt, very clearly. Jeritza was not trying to kill Manuela... in fact, since he was acting under orders of Thales whom he dislikes, he has a good reason to do his job as badly as possible.

Interesting point, that I didn't consider! Jeritza is working for Thales, but his true loyalty is to the Flame Emperor. So, he may have consciously "underperformed" on the task assigned to him. Conversely, he appears to have had a hand in helping Kronya infiltrate the Academy, but perhaps he simply couldn't have prevented that much?

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Interesting, I did not know that! I tried skipping the Thieves' Shrine once, on a "minimum days" playthrough, but never made it past the Deliverance Hideout (in such a playthrough, it's the only chance to promote folks on Alm's side until Act V, so you're effectively encouraged to stay there forever and grind, but I lost my patience). So I didn't get to see any such scene at the end of Act I.

Interestingly, if you skip over Silque (which I did, on a minimum-recruits playthrough), Celica can visit her in the Thieves' Shrine at the end of Act II. But she can't recruit her. Kind of a shame, as Silque is the only non-forced unit on Alm's side, aside from Kliff and Faye, who would have a reason to join Celica in her quest.

Interesting point, that I didn't consider! Jeritza is working for Thales, but his true loyalty is to the Flame Emperor. So, he may have consciously "underperformed" on the task assigned to him. Conversely, he appears to have had a hand in helping Kronya infiltrate the Academy, but perhaps he simply couldn't have prevented that much?

Ah, yes. I think that's what I did too on my minimum recruits. I did Thieves Shrine but then just didn't ask Silque to join. Still, I'm pretty sure if you ignore her entirely someone elses gives you the Mila Turnwheel at the end of chapter 1, or start of chapter 3.

Wouldn't it be cool if, rather than havinCelica go back down and recruit everyone, there was some kind of New Game+ feature that let you trade units between Celica and Alm's party at the end of Part 2 (and then again later using some kind of special shrine). IDK, feels like it might be cool to add more class variety to replays. Give Alm all the mages or something.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Jotari