What if Fire Emblem had a third game in the NES console similar to the SNES and GBA era had, what you might think of a third Fire Emblem NES be like?

[King Marth 64]

I was thinking of making a What if Fire Emblem topic for a while but since I managed to beat Final Fantasy III Pixel Remaster along with beaten Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, Final Fantasy I & II Pixel Remaster, and Dragon Quest I while ago, this gave me an idea for the topic of ideal way for discussing the NES Fire Emblem games in a what if situation if Intelligent Systems handles it. Since I know that both Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest actually had more than two games from the NES era while Fire Emblem only had two NES games in the franchise. Even though I know that the SNES and GBA era have three games retrospectively. This might give me idea of a topic discussion of what a third Fire Emblem NES games becomes exists and what do you guys think about if Intelligent System actually released it after Gaiden in 1992 and before Mystery of the Emblem in 1994, like say it was released in 1993 or early 1994? (I know that Fire Emblem had late NES console releases since SNES was at 1990 in Japan and the NES discontinued in 1994. Plus, The Sacred Stones did get release at the same year as Path of Radiance had in the West.)

I know that Mystery of the Emblem is technically the 3rd game in the Fire Emblem franchise as well as the team worked on Mystery of the Emblem after Gaiden because of the SNES release. But I do like to hear what you guys give your ideas on the what if third Fire Emblem NES game if Intelligent Systems decided in this thread.

 

For this topic:
1. We are not going to place Mystery of the Emblem nor Archaean story (cameos can count) related in this what if third Fire Emblem NES game.
2. You cannot use existing continent settings from future Fire Emblem games after Mystery of the Emblem such as Judgral, Elibe, Tellius, etc.

 

For my idea of what if third Fire Emblem NES game might be like:

Title: Fire Emblem: Sins of Helistore

Style: It might go back to the Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light formula. (I was thinking of something like a third NES title from some franchises like Mario, Castlevania, and Final Fantasy did go back to the same formula from the first game had)

Team: It's going to have some new faces working on the what if third Fire Emblem NES game while the returning team working on the Mystery of the Emblem and Kaga still be the director.

Balance: It might go to give early Mystery of the Emblem-type balanced game play and players can buy and sell in the shop before map starts.

Chapters: It might be around 15 chapters.

Timeline: It takes place 400 years before Marth's story.

Release Date: Somewhere October 1993

Setting: The goal of the Evil Kingdom it has slaves and destroying good cities. And the protagonist and the Princess had started a rebellion against the Evil Kingdom to save the citizens and the world.

Fire Emblem: The Fire Emblem in their world is the Hero's Cape. (I was thinking of a Sword, but Corrin's Sword already been taken, but I don't think a Cape represent the Fire Emblem was brought up before)

Playable Units:

1. As for the main character, it's going to be more of a noble that cares about the people. (I still think it's going to be a Lord class again)
2. I might think it's around 25 to 30 playable units since I know that there's 52 in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light while it's 32 in Gaiden. (I do think it's going to borrow some portrait assets from Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light and Gaiden with some touch ups similar to like how Tatiana's portrait was heavily modified from Nyna's.)
3. For the Nyna archetype princess, it's going to be playable at the end game with a Gotoh like situation as a Saint class.
4. Archetype: It might bring back the Cain and Able Cavalier Archetype, Jagen unit might be a Female Falcon Knight, and Minerva-type.

Bosses and NPCs:

1. I think it should have 8 antagonists.
2. The antagonists be like 1 Female Camus-type unit, 1 Male Michalis-type unit, 1 Male Desaix-type unit, 1 Female Slayde-type unit, 1 Grieth-type unit, 1 Gharnef-type unit, 1 Female Main Antagonist as the Queen (as a General class), and 1 Goddess
3. I think it's going tong to have 6 Minor Bosses while the rest were Monsters to fight for the first half.
4. There's going to be 12 Recruitable Enemies.
5. 3 NPCs

Archanea Cameos: Naga and Gotoh

Classes: 

1. It might bring back some returning classes absent from Gaiden for the what if third Fire Emblem NES game and add some new classes introduced in Mystery of the Emblem.
2. They're keeping the Villager class and Third Tier classes in and add new Third Tier classes.
3. Bringing back the normal Manakete classes while Gaiden's Manaketes were Terrors.
4. They might bring back some Monster units in.

Locations:

1. 3 Nations (bit bigger than Valentia, but somewhat smaller than Archanea)
2. 4 Thief locations
3. 6 Villages
4. 3 Capitals
5. 2 Outside Areas

Ideas on Names:

• Main Character: Wilbert
• Princess Nyna-type: Ariel
• Evil Queen: Estelle
• Jagen-type: Sildrana
• Cain and Abel-type: York and Ashley
• Draug-type: Han
• Gordin-type: John
• Caeda-type: Alexandra
• Villagers: Fordigon, Matt, and Celcy 
• Navarre-type: Agnar
• Ogma-type: Gideon
• Minerva-type: Silvando
• Triangle Attack Sisters: Asim, Blair, and Faris
• Camus-type: Giranda
• Michalis-type: Alexander
• Gharnef-type: Palpinillus
• Desaix-type: Gillidian
• Slayde-type: Evander
• Grieth-type: Yashian
• Manakete: Tinanica
• Continent: Granillan
• Nations: Tericia, Yanasume, and Helistore
• God: Jesillan
• Evil Goddess: Yuma

Voice Actors of the What if Characters from this game had if happens to reappear for Heroes, What if Remake, and Engage:

• Wilbert - Reuben Langdon
• Ariel - Allegra Clark
• Estelle - Dawn M. Bennett
• Sildrana - Michelle Ruff
• Alexandra - Alexis Tipton
• Jesillan - Charles Martinet
• Yuma - Suzie Yeung
• York - Kyle Herbet
• Ashley - Brittney Karbowski
• Han - David Lodge
• John - Matthew Mercer
• Alexandra - Erica Linebeck
• Fordigon - Christian La Monte
• Matt - Zeno Robinson
• Celcy - Brittney Lee Harvey
• Agnar - David Matranga
• Gideon - Ian Sinclair
• Silvando - Ricco Fajardo
• Asim - Suzie Yeung
• Blair - Megan Taylor Harvey
• Faris - Cristina Vee
• Giranda - Megan Taylor Harvey
• Alexander - Kyle Hebert
• Palpinillus - Patrick Seitz
• Gillidian - Michael McConnohie
• Evander - Edward Bosco
• Yashian - David Lodge

Who might show up I pick for Engage as one of the Rings/Bracelets:

• Wibert (Ring) - Engage Power - Boost Defense on any Allies
• Ariel (Bracelet) - Engage Power - Every players heals up

So, if you had any ideas on what if third Fire Emblem NES game you think of in your head and what you like to see the game fit in between Gaiden and Mystery of the Emblem, you can post them here.

Edited August 25, 2023 by King Marth 64

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Honestly I could see an alternate universe where Book 2 of Mystery of the Emblem was released on its own for the Famicom. That would be FE3, probably incorporating some of Gaiden's classes the way Gaiden reused a lot of FE1 sprites. And the only thing that would change about the series is FE4 would either have released a year earlier, or would release at the same time and just be an even more massive game with a third generation. 

I tell you what though, the idea of doing a third, fully original Famicom game would not have gone over well with Nintendo. Gaiden was already two years younger than the super famicom, and from what I understand FE1 and 2 were received pretty divisively - For Nintendo standards and for standards of rpgs at the time. The graphics were the biggest issue, and you can't solve that without moving on to a 16 bit system. Shining Force released on the very same week as Gaiden and it had fully illustrated battle scenes, while also adding explorable towns and NPCs to the Fire Emblem formula. Sega was totally eating Nintendo's lunch, they couldn't afford to do a third, embarrassing famicom game. If I worked at Nintendo, my suggestion in place of them doing Mystery of the Emblem would be a side game for the Game Boy system. Game Boy Fire Emblem has pretty low risk of getting its ass kicked by Shining Force Gaiden on the game gear. Fire Emblem on the Go would build up some more positive brand awareness while we chug along on Geneology's development.

 

[King Marth 64]

11 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Honestly I could see an alternate universe where Book 2 of Mystery of the Emblem was released on its own for the Famicom. That would be FE3, probably incorporating some of Gaiden's classes the way Gaiden reused a lot of FE1 sprites. And the only thing that would change about the series is FE4 would either have released a year earlier, or would release at the same time and just be an even more massive game with a third generation. 

I tell you what though, the idea of doing a third, fully original Famicom game would not have gone over well with Nintendo. Gaiden was already two years younger than the super famicom, and from what I understand FE1 and 2 were received pretty divisively - For Nintendo standards and for standards of rpgs at the time. The graphics were the biggest issue, and you can't solve that without moving on to a 16 bit system. Shining Force released on the very same week as Gaiden and it had fully illustrated battle scenes, while also adding explorable towns and NPCs to the Fire Emblem formula. Sega was totally eating Nintendo's lunch, they couldn't afford to do a third, embarrassing famicom game. If I worked at Nintendo, my suggestion in place of them doing Mystery of the Emblem would be a side game for the Game Boy system. Game Boy Fire Emblem has pretty low risk of getting its ass kicked by Shining Force Gaiden on the game gear. Fire Emblem on the Go would build up some more positive brand awareness while we chug along on Geneology's development.

 

I meant like what if the third Fire Emblem NES game make it as a separated game while Mystery of the Emblem still be released on the SNES. I'm not saying it as put Book 2 of Mystery of the Emblem into the NES. Since Mystery of the Emblem would already been made on the SNES in this idea.

Edited August 24, 2023 by King Marth 64

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

For this topic:
1. We are not going to place Mystery of the Emblem nor Archaean story (cameos can count) related in this what if third Fire Emblem NES game.
2. You cannot use existing continent settings from future Fire Emblem games after Mystery of the Emblem such as Judgral, Elibe, Tellius, etc.

 

33 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

I meant like what if the third Fire Emblem NES game make it as a separated game while Mystery of the Emblem still be released on the SNES. I'm not saying it as put Book 2 of Mystery of the Emblem into the NES. Since Mystery of the Emblem would already been made on the SNES in this idea.

Don't ask for people's thoughts on this topic, if you're going to constrain the answer that they're allowed to give. The notion that the "Old Mystery" we know and love, could've been released earlier as an NES game, containing just the Book 2 contents, is a plausible one.

In any case, there's no way to create a "third NES title" in a vacuum. Doing so means taking away resources from the folks who were working on the first game for the SNES. In such a world, supposing that "Old Mystery for SNES" never happened, it's conceivable that Genealogy - and buy extension, Thracia 776 - would see their release dates pushed ahead by a year or so.

Alternatively, if Mystery of the Emblem for SNES still happened, as FE4, then it would come later than in our timeline. Which means Genealogy would come later, which means Thracia 776... probably wouldn't exist. But who knows? Maybe in this timeline, they would start work earlier on "Maiden of Darkness" for the N64. And it would actually come out, rather than being lost to time.

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

Fire Emblem: The Fire Emblem in their world is the Hero's Cape. (I was thinking of a Sword, but Corrin's Sword already been taken, but I don't think a Cape represent the Fire Emblem was brought up before)

Honestly, not a bad idea! Perhaps it could reduce damage from enemy Monsters and Manaketes, as a gameplay effect?

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

I might think it's around 25 to 30 playable units since I know that there's 52 in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light while it's 32 in Gaiden. (I do think it's going to borrow some portrait assets from Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light and Gaiden with some touch ups similar to like how Tatiana's portrait was heavily modified from Nyna's.)

Definitely on the smaller side, and more akin to a modern title, like Three Houses. I'd be surprised if they trim the roster that far, especially if they assume the player will let dead units stay dead. 

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

Chapters: It might be around 15 chapters.

On the shorter side, assuming chapters are similar in size to what FE1 offered. Perhaps they could do something a bit closer to the "giant maps" of Genealogy, but I don't know if the NES can handle that...

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

Archanea Cameos: Naga and Gotoh

Worth noting that Naga herself is never depicted in FE1, so having her show up would be entirely novel. She was also originally called the "Divine Dragon King" in Japanese, so it's not clear whether she was conceived of as female or male at that time.

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

• 3 Nations (bit bigger than Valentia, but somewhat smaller than Archanea)
• 4 Thief locations
• 6 Villages
• 3 Capitals
• 2 Outside Areas

Is this describing a traversible world map, like in Gaiden? Or are these simply where each chapter would take place, in a more linear experience?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

I meant like what if the third Fire Emblem NES game make it as a separated game while Mystery of the Emblem still be released on the SNES. I'm not saying it as put Book 2 of Mystery of the Emblem into the NES. Since Mystery of the Emblem would already been made on the SNES in this idea.

Well I don't have any immediate suggestions beyond "Do it for the Game Boy instead of the Famicom". Sounds like the only reason why you think they'd make a third one on that system is because some of the later systems would have three. But it's not like that history had happened yet or that three is some magic number. The Famicom was outdated hardware by the time FE1 had come out. The games were not especially well received until they Mystery of the Emblem gave them a clean slate on modern hardware.

Okay. hypothetical where I'm pitching a Fire Emblem game to Nintendo in 1992. Gaiden is out. Kaga and his team are already nearly a year into their Back to Basics Mystery project on Super Famicom, so we can just go hog wild on familiar hardware without impacting the timeline as we know it. I'm proposing we take a second team of rookie designers for another 8 bit fire emblem. 9 month development cycle. Nintendo loves my pitch, but insists it's for the Famicom instead of the game boy. What's my pitch? Mega Man it. We're holding a character design contest. Send us your drawings and we'll use the best ones as a basis for character portraits and names. A lot of people ask why Capcom still did Mega Man games on NES in the wake of Mega Man X, the reason is because the robot master design contest was a hugely popular draw. The games were easy to churn out for junior designers, and people were buying the games just to see if they won. Cha ching.

Because we're stuck on Famicom, we can't do anything about the graphics. Battle scenes are still in a black void. Text limitations are also going to kill most of our story telling potential. But our characters were made up by fans, so the story would probably have been extremely trite anyway. The setting would be original, since we wouldn't want to step on the toes of the already-in-progress Archanea Sequel that expands the lore of that universe. I want every playable class that appeared in Gaiden, excluding villagers. And add back manaketes because you just know a third of our submissions are dragon girls.

I think doing explorable dungeons and towns would be a big pitfall if FE2's execution is the best we can hope for. It's no Final Fantasy. Instead I would double down on reclassing. When units hit level 10, they can choose to either promote or reclass to a new classline. We're taking Demon Fighters and turning that into the game's main mechanical draw. I just don't want villagers since it would be an unnecessary step that would slow it all down. I also really like the two armies concept from FE2, so I would push for that. No idea what the fire emblem would be, only that it would be split in half by our two protagonists to keep it from the villains until they eventually unite for the final chapter.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[King Marth 64]

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Don't ask for people's thoughts on this topic, if you're going to constrain the answer that they're allowed to give. The notion that the "Old Mystery" we know and love, could've been released earlier as an NES game, containing just the Book 2 contents, is a plausible one.

How come though since I did saw some people did put up some notes they put in their threads and I do want to see some ideas on between Gaiden and Mystery of the Emblem? I was just putting stuff down so that anyone can see it. I was just giving some clear ideas for the topic so far. (I wanted to see if it makes it relevant to the topic)

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Worth noting that Naga herself is never depicted in FE1, so having her show up would be entirely novel. She was also originally called the "Divine Dragon King" in Japanese, so it's not clear whether she was conceived of as female or male at that time.

Is this describing a traversible world map, like in Gaiden? Or are these simply where each chapter would take place, in a more linear experience?

Well technically Echoes: Shadows of Valentia did have Naga be called as Divine Dragon King as well. (I don't know if this was some sort of gender thing with rulers in Fire Emblem since I know that Edelgard wasn't called as Empress, she was referred as Emperor in Three Houses)

And also, it's more linear like Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light. (I did said in the style column)

Edited August 24, 2023 by King Marth 64

[Original Alear]

Well technically Echoes: Shadows of Valentia did have Naga be called as Divine Dragon King as well. (I don't know if this was some sort of gender thing with rulers in Fire Emblem since I know that Edelgard wasn't called as Empress, she was referred as Emperor in Three Houses)

There's this book series called The Enchanted Forest where a princess is captured by a dragon, but the two hit it off. At some point the dragon competes in a competition/trial/contest to become King of Dragons. The thing is, the dragon is also female, so the princess asks why the dragon isn't going to become queen. It turns out "King" is gender neutral for dragons and "Queen" is also gender neutral and not anywhere near as important a position.

[Hrothgar777]

To answer this question without falling back on "Mystery Book 2" or the Judgral games, we'd have to look at Kaga's overall creative vision for the series.

Let's start with this: Fire Emblem wasn't really a "franchise" yet and it wasn't formulaic back then. Gaiden mixed FE1's gameplay with Pokemon Red-style (or Final Fantasy, since the former didn't exist yet) unrestricted movement in all four directions and, in dungeons, Pokemon-style random encounters. FE4 had the giant maps, castles, marriage and children mechanics, and FE5 was just stupidly hard for no reason. I don't know about FE3 but it's excluded from this discussion anyway.

So if Kaga were gunning for a third NES installment, he would've tried to tell a new story but in the context of those stories told before. Presumably a new continent set in the same world, with the same general backstory of an past age of dragons who warred against each other and the bad ones were slain by heroic ancient humans. But he would find a different way to tell this story. Of course this would be done "on a budget" given how low-powered the NES was.

 

Here's my idea:

 

Long ago, on the shores of a previously unseen continent called Grenobia, migrants from the dragon tribe (in human form) made landfall and found primitive human beings without advanced civilization. They established the Dominion, whose tiny manakete ruling class, under the leadership of a wise scientist, forged great technological wonders powered by the holy blood of dragons.

An augur among them had prophesied that the gods would destroy them for the sin of hubris. The manaketes had children with one another but their population was too small to avoid inbreeding. The third generation of them was observably sicklier than their predecessors, and the fourth generation sicklier still. The sicker they got, the weaker their holy blood.

Meanwhile there had emerged a sizable hybrid class born from illicit affairs between ordinary humans and their manakete overlords. They were mighty men of valor, and while they couldn't live for thousands of years, reaching one's 100th birthday was normal among them. There was a caste system where these hybrids were looked down upon and often mistreated by the pureblooded manaketes. But emboldened by the sight of the inbred younger manaketes being feeble in body and mind, they realized that Grenobia was the inheritance of their race, not the dragons. Consequently there was an uprising in which they overthrew and slew the purebloods. They then founded the Republic. Despite the name, suffrage was extended only to those with dragon blood, dubbed "Patricians", and not to ordinary humans.

Noting that they had weaker holy blood than the first and second generation purebloods, hence lesser ability to operate the wonders, the Patricians passed laws against intermarrying with normal humans. They tasked a secret police with hunting down and killing any children born from illicit unions. But like their predecessors they couldn't restrain themselves so there were a lot of such secret children. Likewise, their own population, in part depleted from the mutually costly war to annihilate their forebears, was also too small to avoid inbreeding and their own descendants began to degenerate after a while. It looked like history, ever cyclical, was bound to repeat itself.

The main character, Gaus, was one such illegal person: born from a Patrician father and a normal mother (or vise-versa). He enjoyed a position of relative privilege in the capital of the Republic due to his Patrician parent providing for him and giving him a proper education. His brother Lucio, in fact his half-brother, has always been jealous of his talent, and is probably a bit deranged as a consequence of the gradual degeneration of the Patricians.

The game begins when there's an attempt on Gaus's life, which forces him to go into hiding. He joins and eventually comes to lead a rebel movement whose goal is to overthrow their tyrants and create a world where people like him could live peacefully. But they are captured in battle and slated to be executed in an arena, where their local nemesis, the Proconsul Antipater, is in attendance along with officials from the capital.

But the Proconsul, secretly of mixed heritage himself, arranges for them to be supplied with weapons and they fight their way out, slaying the officials in the process. He then implements a large plot across the provinces to rebel against the republic. Gaus leads one of the armies in this rebellion, which eventually takes them to the gates of the capital itself. Meanwhile, Lucio has sought to kill his brother upon discovering that he's a "bastard". He joins the army and by the end of the game has risen the ranks to lead the force opposing Gaus's.

This is a world in a state of transition, with many old wonders intact yet abandoned because nobody alive is able to operate them. This is a republic caught in the throes of decline, and it remains to be seen whether its downfall will yield a more equitable and civilized society or a new dark age.

 

Gameplay-wise, it would play largely like FE1 but with a few tweaks. The big gimmick would be the use of wonders. They can be employed as weapons, to alter the map, etc.

[Jotari]

13 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Honestly I could see an alternate universe where Book 2 of Mystery of the Emblem was released on its own for the Famicom. That would be FE3, probably incorporating some of Gaiden's classes the way Gaiden reused a lot of FE1 sprites. And the only thing that would change about the series is FE4 would either have released a year earlier, or would release at the same time and just be an even more massive game with a third generation. 

I tell you what though, the idea of doing a third, fully original Famicom game would not have gone over well with Nintendo. Gaiden was already two years younger than the super famicom, and from what I understand FE1 and 2 were received pretty divisively - For Nintendo standards and for standards of rpgs at the time. The graphics were the biggest issue, and you can't solve that without moving on to a 16 bit system. Shining Force released on the very same week as Gaiden and it had fully illustrated battle scenes, while also adding explorable towns and NPCs to the Fire Emblem formula. Sega was totally eating Nintendo's lunch, they couldn't afford to do a third, embarrassing famicom game. If I worked at Nintendo, my suggestion in place of them doing Mystery of the Emblem would be a side game for the Game Boy system. Game Boy Fire Emblem has pretty low risk of getting its ass kicked by Shining Force Gaiden on the game gear. Fire Emblem on the Go would build up some more positive brand awareness while we chug along on Geneology's development.

 

By 1993 yeah, but for 1990 Fire Emblem had pretty great graphics. I think there's an Iwata asks interview where someone mentions playing it on release and having their mind blown by seeing a sprite walk up and hit someone in the face with an axe like that.

I agree that a hypothetical third NES Fire Emblem would have ended up being Book 2. That's clearly where Kaga felt comfortable with the story and Gaiden's very name suggests it's a side project for Marth's story. How this would effect the SNES era is more interesting though. Genealogy in our time was released almost at the Nintendo 64's life time (and Thracia well after it). Maybe with the extra time they would have expanded Archanea Saga as some kind of full game instead of a Sattellaview title.

12 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

(I don't know if this was some sort of gender thing with rulers in Fire Emblem since I know that Edelgard wasn't called as Empress, she was referred as Emperor in Three Houses)

And also, it's more linear like Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light. (I did said in the style column)

This is actually an invention of the localization. Edelgard's Emperor class is Kaizerin in Japanese, which is the specifically female version of Kaizer. Empress would have been a more accurate translation (or just Kaiserin...since it's not even a Japanese word to begin with).

It is however true for Sanaki. Whose Japanese class name is Kaizer...which the localisation then translated as Empress.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

Well technically Echoes: Shadows of Valentia did have Naga be called as Divine Dragon King as well. (I don't know if this was some sort of gender thing with rulers in Fire Emblem since I know that Edelgard wasn't called as Empress, she was referred as Emperor in Three Houses)

 

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Worth noting that Naga herself is never depicted in FE1, so having her show up would be entirely novel. She was also originally called the "Divine Dragon King" in Japanese, so it's not clear whether she was conceived of as female or male at that time.

If the Japanese used for "Divine Dragon King" utilizes the kanji 王 - which can be transliterated as "oh", "ou", or "o" (with the line over the o instead of below it, not sure to type the diacritic above on a typical English keyboard), then it is gender-neutral. Deprived of context, the default tendency is to translate it in the masculine, "king" instead of "ruler", but given context it's not a problem for a woman to use it or localize it as "queen" even. 

*Checks FE Wiki for Naga's title*

神の龍王

Yep, it's that kanji. As expected, it's very commonplace.

Why not translate it as "Divine Dragon Ruler (or Monarch)" then? Maybe the localizers -those after FE11 Shadow Dragon b/c I I'll assume those had limited knowledge of who Naga was- simply thought that doesn't flow as naturally in English as "King". Flipping word order and going with "Ruler of the Divine Dragons" would be a more natural arrangement for a gender-neutral phrasing, but adding "of the" makes it more of a mouthful (and perhaps formal tone) to say every time you utter it.

 

13 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

or would release at the same time and just be an even more massive game with a third generation. 

...Provided the Super Famicom had room for it. No idea if that'd be possible, all I know is that the 16-bit era had issues with game size and Genealogy seems like a big game already. Even something later in its history like Final Fantasy VI ran into problems when it was translated, the English script reportedly had to be trimmed down to fit on what space remained in the cartridge.

Space limitations would then also apply to any hypothetical third original Famicom FE. Developers did learn in these older days how to jam as much functional game into the storage parameters they were forced into, particularly later in a console's history, although the first two Fire Emblems already coming late in the Famicom's lifespan leaves me doubting how many extra sardines IS could've fitted into this hypothetical third can.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

If the Japanese used for "Divine Dragon King" utilizes the kanji 王 - which can be transliterated as "oh", "ou", or "o" (with the line over the o instead of below it, not sure to type the diacritic above on a typical English keyboard), then it is gender-neutral. Deprived of context, the default tendency is to translate it in the masculine, "king" instead of "ruler", but given context it's not a problem for a woman to use it or localize it as "queen" even. 

*Checks FE Wiki for Naga's title*

神の龍王

Yep, it's that kanji. As expected, it's very commonplace.

Why not translate it as "Divine Dragon Ruler (or Monarch)" then? Maybe the localizers -those after FE11 Shadow Dragon b/c I I'll assume those had limited knowledge of who Naga was- simply thought that doesn't flow as naturally in English as "King". Flipping word order and going with "Ruler of the Divine Dragons" would be a more natural arrangement for a gender-neutral phrasing, but adding "of the" makes it more of a mouthful (and perhaps formal tone) to say every time you utter it.

In relation to this, I just added some extra context to Edelgard's title to my last comment that might be missed.

The use of the term ruler also reminds me of Berserk. Where the fairy queen is mentioned like 20 years before she's actually introduced (them Berserk release dates!). So she was naturally called the King of the Elves. After she actually showed up the English translation was updated to Flowerstorm Monarch. Which has a nice enough ring to it.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/24/2023 at 9:35 PM, Hrothgar777 said:

Gameplay-wise, it would play largely like FE1 but with a few tweaks. The big gimmick would be the use of wonders. They can be employed as weapons, to alter the map, etc.

Holy hell. It's Super Mario Bros. Wonder, but three decades in advance!

In actuality, though, sounds like a proto-form of Dragon Veins. Would be very impressed to see anything of that sort running on NES.

16 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If the Japanese used for "Divine Dragon King" utilizes the kanji 王 - which can be transliterated as "oh", "ou", or "o" (with the line over the o instead of below it, not sure to type the diacritic above on a typical English keyboard), then it is gender-neutral. Deprived of context, the default tendency is to translate it in the masculine, "king" instead of "ruler", but given context it's not a problem for a woman to use it or localize it as "queen" even. 

Appreciate the added context! I was aware of the general gist of it, in not so many words. Hence why I didn't assert Naga was definitely originally posed as male - rather, that the original vision of Naga could've beem either gender.

On 8/24/2023 at 9:35 PM, Hrothgar777 said:

Let's start with this: Fire Emblem wasn't really a "franchise" yet and it wasn't formulaic back then. Gaiden mixed FE1's gameplay with Pokemon Red-style (or Final Fantasy, since the former didn't exist yet) unrestricted movement in all four directions and, in dungeons, Pokemon-style random encounters. FE4 had the giant maps, castles, marriage and children mechanics, and FE5 was just stupidly hard for no reason. I don't know about FE3 but it's excluded from this discussion anyway.

These are all good points. It wasn't until over a decade into the series, with FE7, that we got a Fire Emblem game that played essentially the same as the one before it. Kaga was nothing if not creative.

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

I agree that a hypothetical third NES Fire Emblem would have ended up being Book 2. That's clearly where Kaga felt comfortable with the story and Gaiden's very name suggests it's a side project for Marth's story. How this would effect the SNES era is more interesting though. Genealogy in our time was released almost at the Nintendo 64's life time (and Thracia well after it). Maybe with the extra time they would have expanded Archanea Saga as some kind of full game instead of a Sattellaview title.

Thracia 776 released in Japan for the SNES in September 1999. The Nintendo GameCube released in Japan in September 2001. Whereas, the N64 released in June 1996 in Japan. This means Thracia 776 came out closer to the SNES' successor's successor, than to the SNES' successor.

Also, the original release was a "flash cartridge" that you had to fill at Blockbuster. If you wanted the game pre-installed on the card, you needed to wait until January 2000. That's right, there were Super Nintendo games that didn't hit shelves until a year starting with a "2".

On 8/24/2023 at 7:08 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

No idea what the fire emblem would be, only that it would be split in half by our two protagonists to keep it from the villains until they eventually unite for the final chapter.

Ooh - perhaps a sword, split between the blade and the hilt? Or a staff, split between the rod part and the "magic bulb" that seems to exist at the end of every staff? I do like this idea, for sure.

Anyway, my one "wishlist item" is - if the game only has one Lord, that they would be a specifically female Lord. We've still technically never had a game that's done this. And with the kick of non-remakes always having an "Avatar", it might not ever happen.

Joke change: Gaiden got rid of Axes, so neo-FE3 simplifies the system further by getting rid of Swords as well. Sorry, but everyone just uses Lances now!

[King Marth 64]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:35 PM, Hrothgar777 said:

Here's my idea:

 

Long ago, on the shores of a previously unseen continent called Grenobia, migrants from the dragon tribe (in human form) made landfall and found primitive human beings without advanced civilization. They established the Dominion, whose tiny manakete ruling class, under the leadership of a wise scientist, forged great technological wonders powered by the holy blood of dragons.

An augur among them had prophesied that the gods would destroy them for the sin of hubris. The manaketes had children with one another but their population was too small to avoid inbreeding. The third generation of them was observably sicklier than their predecessors, and the fourth generation sicklier still. The sicker they got, the weaker their holy blood.

Meanwhile there had emerged a sizable hybrid class born from illicit affairs between ordinary humans and their manakete overlords. They were mighty men of valor, and while they couldn't live for thousands of years, reaching one's 100th birthday was normal among them. There was a caste system where these hybrids were looked down upon and often mistreated by the pureblooded manaketes. But emboldened by the sight of the inbred younger manaketes being feeble in body and mind, they realized that Grenobia was the inheritance of their race, not the dragons. Consequently there was an uprising in which they overthrew and slew the purebloods. They then founded the Republic. Despite the name, suffrage was extended only to those with dragon blood, dubbed "Patricians", and not to ordinary humans.

Noting that they had weaker holy blood than the first and second generation purebloods, hence lesser ability to operate the wonders, the Patricians passed laws against intermarrying with normal humans. They tasked a secret police with hunting down and killing any children born from illicit unions. But like their predecessors they couldn't restrain themselves so there were a lot of such secret children. Likewise, their own population, in part depleted from the mutually costly war to annihilate their forebears, was also too small to avoid inbreeding and their own descendants began to degenerate after a while. It looked like history, ever cyclical, was bound to repeat itself.

The main character, Gaus, was one such illegal person: born from a Patrician father and a normal mother (or vise-versa). He enjoyed a position of relative privilege in the capital of the Republic due to his Patrician parent providing for him and giving him a proper education. His brother Lucio, in fact his half-brother, has always been jealous of his talent, and is probably a bit deranged as a consequence of the gradual degeneration of the Patricians.

The game begins when there's an attempt on Gaus's life, which forces him to go into hiding. He joins and eventually comes to lead a rebel movement whose goal is to overthrow their tyrants and create a world where people like him could live peacefully. But they are captured in battle and slated to be executed in an arena, where their local nemesis, the Proconsul Antipater, is in attendance along with officials from the capital.

But the Proconsul, secretly of mixed heritage himself, arranges for them to be supplied with weapons and they fight their way out, slaying the officials in the process. He then implements a large plot across the provinces to rebel against the republic. Gaus leads one of the armies in this rebellion, which eventually takes them to the gates of the capital itself. Meanwhile, Lucio has sought to kill his brother upon discovering that he's a "bastard". He joins the army and by the end of the game has risen the ranks to lead the force opposing Gaus's.

This is a world in a state of transition, with many old wonders intact yet abandoned because nobody alive is able to operate them. This is a republic caught in the throes of decline, and it remains to be seen whether its downfall will yield a more equitable and civilized society or a new dark age.

 

Gameplay-wise, it would play largely like FE1 but with a few tweaks. The big gimmick would be the use of wonders. They can be employed as weapons, to alter the map, etc.

Nice, so what type of Fire Emblem was used in that world? Also, about the holy blood part, that isn't been used in Game Mechanics like Genealogy of the Holy War used for example, correct?

Edited September 1, 2023 by King Marth 64

[Hrothgar777]

1 minute ago, King Marth 64 said:

Nice, so what type of Fire Emblem was used in that world? Also, about the holy blood part, that isn't been used in Game Mechanics like Genealogy of the Holy War used for example, correct?

Dunno about the Fire Emblem. At this point it's not really an important plot point anymore, assuming it ever was outside of the first game. Perhaps they'd raid an old temple somewhere and find it. Or maybe it only exists on the continent of Archanaea.

The holy blood thing wouldn't be a fleshed out mechanic as in Genealogy. At most it'd be something that makes some units and not others eligible to activate wonders. And this is a hypothetical other reality where Kaga or whoever made a third NES game 2-3 years before Genealogy came out, so it couldn't be copying a game that it preceded.