XnadrojX
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Posts posted by XnadrojX
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Oof, I'm assuming that was a Vig Shot.
So Evan flipped scum, which makes Fable, Makaze, and Zeonth look pretty good, and it makes Bartozio and RADicate look bad.
I'd be voting Bartozio here, but RADicate seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, which pings me hard after he got so many townreads day 1. I'm probably paranoid of coasting scum but I feel pretty scared of this slot.
##Vote @RADicate
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RADicate and Junk all feel pretty underwhelming today tbh, RAD's Day 1 was pretty heavily focused on Fenrir so I was kinda expecting to see more gamesolving coming from them today, but they've kinda dropped off the face of the earth after making a couple of responses to defend their EoD1. Junk is kinda... I liked them in D1 and early D2 but now their posts just don't feel as impactful, their good posts went pretty deep into analysis which makes me think they actually thought things through, but now their posts aren't as content-full as before. Still a solid townlean but slightly less than before.
I do like tryhard Fenrir Aesir, and I'm ready to read the 50% of your next wallpost that matters :P
For clarity, I think Scum!Evan means Town!Fable, Town!Makaze, and Scum!Bart, while Town!Evan means Null-Town!Bart and one scum in Fable and Makaze. I think Evan/Bart are the same alignments because their interactions can be totally fabricated as W/W, along with reasons mentioned above, but they can also totally be V/V because... well, their interactions could be genuine. I'm considering V/W Evan/Bart, but to a lesser extent, I don't have much reason but I just feel like Scum!Bart reacts differently to Town!Evan.
I'm pretty sure Evan flips scum anyways and I TR both Fable and Makaze already so unless someone gives me a better reason otherwise or I notice something off that I really shouldn't have missed, I'm parking my vote here.
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Okay the game has gotten.. a lot more complicated than I expected on my first skimthrough.
I doubt Zeonth is scum here honestly, their post feels fine, their responses are pretty okay. Fable has already posted their thoughts which are interestingly similar to mine, which is just anothe reason to TR them ig. I TR Makaze but I have to disagree with their statement where they said Bart/Evan cannot be W/W, their argument is that scum doesn't TR a buddy getting lynched, but following the gamestate they weren't really in much trouble (2 votes isn't a lot tbh) and could easily be shifted off. In fact, I can completely see a Bart/Evan scumteam working out, with Evan saving Bart through their influence. I have no idea what's up with the Zeo wagon, just came suddenly out of nowhere and it makes no sense at all.
##Vote @EvanManManMan
I think this lynch clears up the most slots (For me at least). The interactions between this slot and Zeonth, Makaze, Fable and that other user (sorry can't remember who it was on read through) are much more telling if this guy's alignment is known. And I'm fairly sure this is scum anyways, for reasons similar to my lynch on Bartozio's.
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Did a quick read-through and my initial thoughts were.. eugh, EvanManMan is exhibiting the same behaviour I SRed Bartozio for, but to an even larger extent... their level of "faulty reasoning" doesn't sit well with me. By extension, I think Fable and Makaze is Town, Makaze has pushed on people consistently and Fable's pulling out of the Makaze tunnel felt genuine town "I think I'm wrong" rather than scum "This wagon isn't getting any speed" kinda thing.
Gonna read it more closely now
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Fen what do you think of RAD
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Hm how do I put this. Thinking it through logically, if that hour really mattered, no one would have hammered anyways. And if someone did indeed hammer, that only incriminates them. So pulling off L-1 just for that reason seems weak. This isn't PS where Town potatoes at L-3 somehow and speed-lynches their way to LyLo.
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Hmm that makes sense too. But it makes no sense for Town!Bartozio to be able to 180 me that fast and hop on to the Satsuma wagon either though.
I guess I'll wait for their explanation when they come on
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Hmm fair point ig. That still leaves the second part of the post unanswered.
brb eating
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38 minutes ago, RADicate said:
Not checking votals atm but iirc i was actually the first vote on the wagon. I actually just voted it to apply some pressure for them to get some content out. They were ghosting the thread at the time of my lynch and i asked them something along the lines of "Hey since you're hanging around whatchu think about things" (thats prolly not word for word).
As for why i got off; i wanted to avoid a hammer on the slot as i thought i still had an hour more before the DL hit. And didnt wanna that nonexistant hour to go to waste.
The point that you were informed that the hour was non-existent still stands however? And if people really had things to do for that hour, they wouldn't have hammered anyways. This reminds me of my first scum game on MU where my mindset was not to get incriminated by votes and I did the exact same thing as you did now (admittedly using different reasoning to justify myself, but the point still stands).
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z didn't see a whole bunch of posts being made while I made this post
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9 hours ago, RADicate said:
On smogon im 3p1k and PS we did some makeover thing so im like "Assembly Member Chui"...... i didnt make that profile i promise .-.
It's actually Assemblymember.Chiu :P
Also thread just literally doubled between this post and my last post .-. Just reading through all that stuff is blegh.
##Vote @Bartozio
My initial reasons, but then he just 180'ed me. I appreciate you not pushing me anymore, but the switch just seems really unnatural. Also the Satsuma wagon's sudden explosion makes me think there's a scum influencing it and Bartozio is my biggest read on the wagon.
@Zeonth My opinion on Mackc2 changed when you made your post because you said some stuff about Mackc2 I didn't consider before and I changed my read to consider them.
Fenrir makes interesting points about RADicate, I'd like his response too.
Fen's probably Town here, it makes sense for TRed scum to just hide under their TR and suck up to other TRed people, i.e RAD and point fingers at someone on the wagon.
I really don't want to deal with the Fable/Makaze thing until I have to, but I think Makaze is just being too clingy to their reads for now. I'd like Fable to post more AI stuff to read however.
EvanManMan has done approximately nothing, I'm not counting those EoD posts because they're essentially contentless. Either they just really have some weird gut feeling or they pulled their reads out of thin air.
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Just noticed Bartozio just dropping his case on me right when Mackc2 said he thinks we're TvT because none of us are backing down. Can't really post much now but both the unlynch and the Fable sheep feel a little off to me, will come back to this point later.
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wow Zeonth completely ignoring anything related to me in any way :(
Fable there's literally one person actively voting you (the rest are kinda sheeping), calm down and please don't rage quit.
Zeonth does raise some points against Mackc2, my read on that slot's moving back down to null-ish.
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So why aren't you actively changing the gamestate?
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7 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:
I don't actually scumread you. I'm pretty much null on everyone on Day 1s most of the time. I only voted you because we've had this conversation about dropping votes for no reason multiple times already, so I voted you tongue in cheek. I could have asked you any of those questions without that vote and not much would change other than perhaps your own perception.
I'm not very invested in solving the game at Day 1, when reads will be mediocre and quickly subject to change.
Now I guess I have to catch up on a few pages.
Doesn't this just mean you should put more effort into game-solving in Day 1, since you want to have non-mediocre reads?
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Eugh, I'd say some stuff about Satsuma but like so much of what can be said has already been said lol. What situation do you think would require you to fall on a backup info lynch? Because I see no such situation at the time of your post and I don't see why you would need this "safety net".
I'd probably vote Satsuma if I weren't convinced that Bartozio is scum.
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7 hours ago, Rapier said:
Ok so I got to read the topic again and I noticed a few things I skimmed over on my first time.
I’m reading Athena and XnadrojX’s interactions as the latter being blatantly oblivious to the former’s jokes and taking them seriously. I don’t think he is avoiding discussion because he bothered to answer Athena and even offered himself to comment on what he thought were “tons of game-relevant stuff to talk about”.
To be honest, page 3 could be summarized as “Athena is trying to get reads on others by joking around and people are trying to answer him seriously”. On retrospect, I like his effort on getting out of RVS and trying to promote discussions within the game, despite the lack of game-relevant content at that time. He also took the time to scumhunt before anyone else did and got a townread out of XsomethingX.
I still don’t agree with his logic on some reads/votes he made, though, such as his vote on Mack simply because he didn’t answer his inquiry in the 20 minutes timespan between his question and his vote. Expecting someone to answer you asap and blaming them for not doing so is bad logic, especially when you only give them 20 minutes to reply. I also don’t like how he gave XsomethingX a townread, then sometime later said he said he doesn’t give him townpoints for his previous behavior (https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83798-training-mafia-30-interested-new-players-read-first-post-day-1/&do=findComment&comment=5243704 ) (that warranted a townread before), then sheeps Bartozio’s vote on the aforementioned player through a sudden 180º turn on his previous townread.
Actually, if I could summarize Bart and Athena’s interactions on page 3 and 4, they’ve been going back and forth questioning each other’s logic, but then conceding on each other’s points and ultimately forming a two people wagon on XsomethingX. Their interaction felt like a subtle attempt at buddying to me.
Speaking of XsomethingX, he seemed kind of defensive when Athena questioned him. I agree with Fenrir Aesir’s post where he finds odd that the former answered the later with “what are you trying to pull here?”. I don’t really like this reaction.
Honorable mentions:
Fable (https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83798-training-mafia-30-interested-new-players-read-first-post-day-1/&do=findComment&comment=5243531) and Makaze are players who I can think of who only dropped in the thread for RVS styled shitposting even when there were discussions and votes happening. Ok, I need to check this out for pages 5 and further, but I’ll stop here because thinking is hard.
Wait, so you don't like the people voting me and you think they're buddying subtly, but you also don't like my reaction? So you scumread all 3 of us?
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9 hours ago, Bartozio said:
He's a slow starter, so I'm willing to give him time to get going. This is why I said if he continues, instead of me outright suspecting him now.
There's a limit to how much time I'm willing to give him though, and that limit is less then a full day phase.
Fair. It doesn't strike me as completely different, but tone is generally not something I'm great at remembering. I'll see if I have time to reread some of his ED1 posts that game.
If you (or other people) read my post as me saying you actually said Athena was being dumb (etc.), then I apologize, that was not my intent. I did actually interpred it as you reacting only to his factual questions, and not his intent (getting an rvs wagon going, or just any kind of thing to move the game out of rvs). Maybe I'm being dumb and it really wasn't that obvious and maybe we really have completely different ways of approuching rvs. I still find it an odd interaction from your part, especially since you seemed (from my PoV) fine with it ending without you having gained anything from it, not even a good read on Athena.
Yes, you had some suspision on him halfway through, and yes you pushed that. And yes, I read his response of "Joking". But... isn't that a pretty easy answer? Why did that stop all your suspision? And if it did, doesn't that mean you ended with no read on him? Why didn't you try to analyze whether jokingly approuching you was more likely to come from town or scum Athena?
He townread you for showing emotion at all, and didn't delve too much into why you would have those emotions in the first place. His point was valid in the sense that I can see him reaching that conclusion, even if I don't agree with it.
I'm actually saying I think your scum, for what that's worth.
I explained one. for two: reacting seriously to jokes like this is a pretty good way to stop them from continuing. A rvs wagon on me isn't going to start when you already explained why all of his reasons are reaching. If you actually didn't get he was joking, you didn't break of the interaction, sure.
Considering you said that after (in my interpretation, annoyed) explaining why all of his topics were super reaching, I don't think it's such a weirt interpretation.
I do not consider my logic flawed, so even if it is flawed in your opinion, it doesn't make my comments a leap? Since I'm the one making them?
I feel like I explained this above, but let me know if you think I didn't.
He walked away with a read on you though.
I think I already said this before, but you could have easily sheeped his logic and voted me for SB not shitposting. Or ask why he isn't voting me at putting his money where his mouth is.
Or just vote him for only coming up with reaching reasons to vote someone. Or talk about people entering the thread without voting, like he and Mack did later on. Any of these would have moved the thread along more then what you did.
...Apart from the fact that I need a lot of "leaps in logic"....which clearly aren't fallacies...
Actually believing said misrepresentation? Boring story, I know.
I mean, you literally said
11 hours ago, Bartozio said:Uhm, no? All you did in that conversation was react with: this question is dumb. This question is dumber. Why are you being dumb? (in rvs)
so I'd say it's pretty reasonable to read your post as you saying you actually said Athena was being dumb. Again, after they said it was a joke, what are you expecting me to gain out of it? And if I did gain any reads or anything out of it, do I need to state it? In fact, I think that whole interaction was pretty worthwhile because now you've tried to push me in a way I can't see town doing.
Yes, "Joking" is that strong of an answer. Does one need a reason to joke in RVS? Is joking in RVS alignment indicative? No, and No. I'm not going to analyze something that isn't worth analyzing.
So you can see people thinking I'm Town for showing emotion, but you think I'm scum for showing emotion? So how about you delve a little into how showing emotion makes me scum, why you can see how showing emotion can lead to me getting townread, and telling us why you disagree and think I fit the scum case instead of the town case?
Throwing shade is literally saying you think someone is scum but done discreetly.
Uh, the point was about me asking a question, not me reacting. Stop sidestepping the main point. Let's say that I knew they were jokes and chose to respond seriously anyway, how does that cut off interaction? How would you react when asked a joke question without doing it in a way that, in your definition, "breaks off interaction".
I think it's definitely a weird interpretation. Even if I outright told him he was reaching and proceeded to ask "What are you trying to pull here?", how does that interpret as "Why are you being dumb?". Your case on me relies on me not wanting to prod him more, and you choose to "misinterpret" the question where I actually prodded him about his intentions? Like, I post these questions to get an answer, not to get them twisted and warped to try to paint me as scum. Me being annoyed just leads to the question "What are you trying to do by asking me these?" or "What do you hope to gain from this?" being phrased into "What are you trying to pull here?", I honestly can't see any way you can think to get "Why are you being dumb?", which I might add is borderline ad hominem.
Uh, yes it does? You're making conclusions from logic that can't logically lead to said conclusion? That's a leap to me.
I still don't understand how me being annoyed leads "What are you trying to pull here?" into "Why are you being dumb?"
Let's see, I chose to believe he was joking and dropped the whole joke question thing, so that removes the "vote him" option. I took the "SB isn't shitposting" thing as a joke, because it was pretty obvious that mentors posting would have minimal impact on alignment, so that removes the "vote him for not voting Bartozio" option. Mackc2 thing later when I had already stopped reading the game, and it was solved by the time I came back. All these "options" you're giving me are using reasons I wouldn't have, and I'm not going to make up reasons to get scum to fake a townread on me.
Leaps of logic aren't fallacies imo. But that's besides the point, it doesn't change the fact you could have a reason to do this as scum. You're sidestepping again.
Even after I clarified after the first time?
Bartozio's explanation gives nothing, it's either just sidestepping or resulting in even more confusion that there already was.
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Actually, thinking about it, I can think of a reason you'd do all this as scum. It's easy towncred for creating a "talking point" of sorts, and your faulty logic doesn't involve any obvious fallacies and simply relies on a blatant misrepresentation of me. It's an easy way to push someone without needing to wait for someone to screw up.
And now I'm trying to think of why you'd do this as Town, and I come at 2 conclusions. 1. You're trying to pressure me, which obviously isn't the case as you've announced your solidified scumread on me, and 2. You legitimately scumread me, which I don't see happening if you're Town given your entire reasoning for scumreading me is based off bad logic, which I'm very sure in my current understanding of the game that Town would not want to touch.
So pray tell, what town motive can you have in misrepresenting me, not just once, but continuously after I've made my defense, and push me based on that?
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Which brings us back to the original point, how was I, in any way, trying to break off interaction? What flow of thinking would you be in where you interpret "What are trying to pull here?", a perfectly legitimate question, as "Why are you being dumb?" as an attempt to cut off discussion?
And there's more logic that doesn't make sense. If athena_57 hopes to gain something out of it, they'd have more things to probe at. But they were joking around, and that's a form of interaction too. You're effectively telling me I'm scum for not being able to expand a joke into a meaningful, alignment-indicative conversation, when there was literally nothing to talk about at that point of the game.
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27 minutes ago, Bartozio said:
He could have tried deriving Athena's alligance from it? He could have tried starting an rvs wagon on me for the whole SB not shitposting thing? There were several things he could have done to move the game forward with it, yet he didn't.
I mean, Xnad was reacting seriously to obvious joke questions. The only other thing Athena could have done imo was continuing the joke, but I don't think that would have done anything either. I feel like at the end of their conversation, Athena walked away with a failed attempt to start anything, but at least a read on Xnad. Xnad got... nothing. No attempt to start anything, no read on Athena, nothing. In this situation, I'd expect Xnad to want more out of the conversation, while Athena got basicly all he was likely gonna get.
I guess that's something. Although it became nothing at the end of the conversation, so...
Uhm, no? All you did in that conversation was react with: this question is dumb. This question is dumber. Why are you being dumb? (in rvs)
That doesn't count as keeping an interaction going to me. Heck, if you were suspicious of Athena when you asked that "What are you trying to pull?", why didn't you vote him? Even if he was joking, why not continue with asking him why he was asking you all those question, since it doesn't seem like you were townreading him for the effort? I'm having trouble seeing this lack of intrest come from someone trying to solve the game.
Think this is a good point to correct my vote:
##Vote: @XnadrojX
Showing emotion == having said emotion? We analyzed the same thing, but we had different reasons for our conclusions.
Was this about me or Athena?
Does this count as trowing shade yet?
Indeed, it wasn't a normal flow of thinking. It was the amazing thinking of a proffesional internet detective with a degree in mathematics! Yes, yes, thank you, you are all lucky to have me!
In all seriousness though, I don't think my flow of thinking was that weird. Also, what do you think scum!me would be trying to pull here then? One more point for not putting in effort to solve the game I guess.
.It wasn't obvious to me, it's really easy for you to say that as you superimpose your thoughts onto me. Yes I was suspicious. I don't always need my vote on someone to probe them. And regardless if my suspicion was fake or not, it doesn't change any point in your argument. I can't be bothered to pull up quotes for what's obviously you discrediting me, I responded their questions not knowing they were apparently "jokes", and asked why would they do what they were doing ("What are you trying to pull here?"). I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth. Apologies if you've simply misread, but I clearly recall athena_57 responding to my post (Which, if you recall, has a question about their intentions in it) with a "It's a joke". I'm having trouble seeing how you arrived at the mislead conclusions that you did.
So athena_57 "townread" me for "showing annoyance"... you disagreed and said I was scum for "having annoyance"... but you said their point on me was valid because it's okay to "townread" people for "showing annoyance" but not "having annoyance"? Whaaat? This explains nothing. How would your "different reasons" to analyzing the exact same thing not contradict?
It was to athena_57.
About as much as this is right now (in terms of shade-throwing done)
Well I think your flow of thinking was weird. For one, "I'm scum for being annoyed, but your reasons (I'm town for showing annoyance) are good enough to not suspect you". For two, I asked a question, an obvious question with a question mark mind you, and apparently I'm the one who wanted to break off communication. I can find even more of these "leaps of logics" in your new post too. Like, how do you interpret "What are you trying to pull here?" as "Why are you being dumb?", or "I'm not putting effort to solve the game" when you're the one insisting on using flawed logic to attack me.
So let's say you're right about me not wanting to start anything out of the athena_57 thing, with the "new" information that I didn't know it was a joke. I asked a question, and athena_57 could do one of 2 things, namely, continue the joke, which does nothing, or drop the joke, which frees up clutter and allows game-related discussion to continue. Your posts are large but your whole case on me is based off your (deliberate or otherwise) misinterpretation of my post.
What does scum!you gain from doing this? Nothing. What does town!you lose from doing this? Many, many things. I can't see why you do this as scum, if you want me to be honest. But I can see many reasons why you wouldn't do this as town, and the things you lose doing this as town hurts much more than what you lose by doing this as scum.
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Huh, I guess you're right about the Makaze point.
Satsuma, what makes you think that a D1 info lynch will be required in any way? I'd say this game is pretty active and has enough discussion to make a lynch based off scumreads and not info. Why are you trying to suggest info lynches instead of prodding people for reads?
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I can't think of any synonym for "huge leaps of logic" I could have used though.
Junk, I think Makaze also said that Mackc2 was scum, and with barely any context or reasoning. I don't see how what he did was different from what Satsuma did.
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Can't help but townread RADicate here, his probing of Fenrir feels genuine when it's honestly quite easy to just agree with stuff or call him out without much questioning. I'm going to wait until later in the Day to try to read Fenrir though, I'm interested to see how he's going to clear up the misunderstanding/miscommunication he had with RAD and I could see him feasibly make the posts as he did as scum trying to pocket me or town being the conspiracy theorist he likes to be.
Expanding on my point on Bartozio. he's also been responding to athena_57's questions and his general posting style just seems to be simple one- or two-liners. He wasn't not doing anything about the people he can't read or reads as null.
Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER
in Mafia
Posted
Actually, RAD/Bart makes sense. RAD has basically no interactions with anyone, and the one flipped scum makes Bart looks bad, I can see them as scum buddies.
Neither of their flips really advance my reads that far though, RAD is contentless with anyone except Fenrir who is dead, and the person who Bart has the most interaction with is me. Maybe you, but I can't see myself discerning an alignment of yours because of a Bart scumflip because it's limited to a Day 1 early interaction that turned out to... be rather weird and I'd rather not deal with it. Those 2 are my biggest scumreads however and I would settle for them to be lynched today