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LoneRecon400

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Everything posted by LoneRecon400

  1. There's most certainly enough funds to forge a Killer Bow on both sides by the mid part of Act 3. Here's a thread showing just how much money you get throughout the game: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/bo53nw/the_fe15_money_floor/?st=JW1BJ415&sh=f1a0396f Zewihandlers aren't actually the great of weapon, as are the Rapiers simply because they cost too much. Gold is much better off being used upgrading either the Killer Bow or Ridersbane, or being converted into Sliver marks to fund other forges. For a +2 Zewihander in Act 3, for example, you'd need 85 Silver and 2 Gold for 11 might weapon with 75 Hit. A Rapier is even worse since it costs 130 Silver and 2 Gold just for +2 weapon with 5 might and 95 might. In comparison, you could instead just forge a +3 Silver Sword. Forging it from a Steel Sword only costs 215 sliver for a 10 might weapon with 95 accuracy. Also helps that Roundhouse and Duelist Blow are especially useful that you get relatively soon and add a substantial amount to both Hit and Crit. The extra effective might from the Rapier also isn't that much of a boon since even with a +3 Rapier, 18 might just isn't enough to one round Knights or Gold Knights without a Crit, let alone Barons. Two round KO'ing those enemies is the best a Dreadfighter is going to do, and they can accomplish that with a Silver Sword.
  2. I'd say some some ground rules need to establish first before listing positions. Like what's the rule when it comes to grinding? Are we going to prevent it? If we do, how should dungeon encounters be treated? Or how about Map Spawns? What about Sidequests that mandate back tracking? Should Sonya cost you for picking her over Deen? Etc. You can have good discussion without answering these questions, but there's going to a big disconnect in the discussions. A person who doesn't fight dungeon encounters is probably not going to have a Myrmidon or Sniper for Zofia Gate, for example. As for your actual list: -The Archers should go above the Cavaliers as well as the Cleircs. The Killer Bow is simply too centralizing to ignore during the late game and the utitly clerics provide all game long outweighs the combat Cavaliers provide, even if it is quite good past Act 1. -There's not that much of a gap between any Cavaliers. Once they promote to Paladin, they all become largely the same unit, so no way is Clive in E tier. Same with the archers. -Clair should be lower than the Mages. Flight utility isn't that useful on Alm's route and her durability is very lacking, as well as her Strength without the aid of a Ridersbane. -Kamui > Deen just for the availability. -Catria should be swapped with Palla. Palla's base level means that she's 1 level off being able to promote before the desert maps with a Golden Apple and the Level wells from the Sea Shrine. Having a unimpeded by terrain with quite notable durability allows those maps to go much more smoothly. Catria's better speed growth also won't allow her to double fast enemies on average. -Archer Atlas should be right below Leon as by doing the above he can get to Sniper in a timely fashion and can trade the Killer Bow with Leon. -Sonya should below Conrad. Having decent stats doesn't mean much when you are effectively locked to Excalibur and are locked to 4 movement. -Celica should be swapped with Boey. Giving Boey 1 Attack and 2 Speed from priory wells only puts him 1 attack off from one rounding a lot of bandits in act 2, which can net him a lot of experience. Celica can never say the same she retaliates with her sword at 1 range instead of magic. -Nomah should also be higher than Valbar since he can put in work by using Sagittae in combination with the Speed Ring to help provide large chip damage to enemies.
  3. It's rather diffcult for any unit to one round Act 5 enemies without effective weaponary or crits. The weakest Arcainst in the act, for example, needs over 30 attack in order to be one rounded. And those are just the mages. Every unit will stuggle to reach those kinds of benchmark without some way to deal extra damage, so he's not at that much of a disadvantage compartively to other units. Even if that wasn't a factor, Mycen bases are often better than what most Gold Knights provide. An average 10/10 Gold Knight Mathilda only averages 22 Attack, the same as a base Mycen, and will be unlikely to double most of the high speed enemies. Map spawns aren't considered in a LTC since they use a patch to disable them. Even with them, however, it'd still be worth it to backtracking considering how much a promoted Palla helps for those terrain impeding maps and to let Atlas gain the levels he needs to be get to Sniper in a timely fashion.
  4. He'll leave if you try to go North to Mila's temple, but he'll stay with you if you decide to go down South to Sea Shrine instead. Even if he did leave you, you can just go back and recurit him again so long as you don't complete the desert maps without him recruited.
  5. Mycen is actually better than the other Gold Knights in Act 5 barring maybe Mathilda since every enemy either has over 20 Speed or struggles to break double digits. There's very little inbetween, so his 11 Speed is enough to double most enemies, making his extra attack and defense shine more. Plus he can use the Gradivus you get in the temple to double Duma for some nice extra chip damage. That alone puts him above Forsyth, who require extra grinding to be on par with to a unit that's already not great and can't do anything at base except maybe chip an Arcanist in 3-2. Him facing crit rates isn't that much of a issue considering the crit evade rate in this game is Luck/2. So even if you had a unit with 10 more luck than Mcyen, they'd still only have 5 more crit evade. The turnwheel can also be use to prevent any low percent crits if he does end up receiving one. Getting bad level ups isn't that large of a issue in Echoes considering how promotion gain ensuring that a unit will always be at a certain level as long as they are given enough experience. Atlas is also actually quite a big factor in an efficient run since in LTCs they hold off doing Sea Shrine to promote Palla before the desert maps, thus giving him the chance to promote to Archer in timely fashion. From there he'll be able to promote to Sniper by Dragon Shrine and be able to engage in trade chains with Leon for the Killer Bow, which makes him quite the important asset for a efficient run.
  6. If by beast unit you mean the Wolfskin in Chapter 15, you cannot. You can also just capture enemies from the various Paralouges if you ever want some more options. I know off that off the top of my head Kaze's Paralouge always has some Wyvern Lords. If you want a standout unit boss unit, the one in Silas's Paralouge has some great stats: https://imgur.com/a/c1aMgOu Paralouges also scale by chapter, so he'd be even stronger then what listed here.
  7. Speaking of Orochi, it might be helpful for you to utilize her capture skill to get some enemy units. They can provide some good pair up bonuses and skills you'd otherwise would have to use good units to waste their turn on using. For example, you can capture the Wyvrren Lord in Midori's Paralouge for his pair up bonuses (+3 Str, +3 Def, +1 Mov) that also learns Rally Defense in three levels. Same thing can be done with the Berserker in the same chapter for an really good offensive pair up (+5 Str, +3 Spd) and Rally Strength. Cavaliers can also learn in Shelter in two levels, which makes it possible to have Azura dance twice in a single turn. And remember that you capture generic enemy bosses as well. The one in Silas's Paralouge is particularly noteworthy thanks to having stats and growths on par with Camila. Also, if you're still curious forged weapons, forged bronze weapons are the way to go, as long as you're willing to grind for the materials. At +3, they have the same might as a Steel Weapon without the drawback and have +15 hit while only costing 4000 gold. They won't allow you to activate skills or crit, but enemies in Birthright are so weak you won't need either to beat enemies with enough investment. A +2 Iron also has the same might as a +3 Bronze and cost the same, but they also have 10 les Hit compared to their bronze variants.
  8. I'd pretty against dropping Kaze to B rank. Magekilling is already something that most units struggle to accomplish with how hard enemy magic users hit, so having one who can clear groups of them is pretty useful. Even ignoring that, his 1-2 range and overkill speed makes him a very viable choice aganist some specific enemies that are otherwise diffcult to remove. The Master Ninjas in Chapter 17 are something Kaze is capable of one rounding with enough investment, which is something very few units can claim to do. This also extend to the Hunter's Knife which makes him a decent unit against Kitsune and Fliers. While admittedly isn't that important since they can easily be taken out through other means, it does help to prove his versatility. Also TC, you may want to add these links to the opening so not everyone may be aware they exist: Averages:http://zekareisoujin.github.io/FEFatesStatCalc/ Enemy Stats: https://www.dropbox.com/s/81z5gox8nj5oxyd/Fates enemy stats (lunatic).xlsx?dl=0
  9. While admittedly Silas isn't the best Pair Up for her, Paladin still helps to increase her offense with Elbow Room to offset E weapons on top of giving her 8 Movement. Master of Arms allows her to keep her Axe Rank so she's not stuck having to deal with only E rank weapons. And by feeding her an arms scroll later on, she's also able to use some useful weapons such as the Sword Catcher, Axe Splitter, or Beast Killer. And while there's nothing really worthwhile about Blacksmith, it at least means she gets to keep her Axe Rank and she doesn't have to pair up with anyone to get access to it. How about I provide a scenario where both it and Oni Chieftain are avaible to do something few unit can't? Chapter 27 Berserkers have 53 attack with a Silver Axe. A 20/15 Oni Chieftain Rinkah average 31 HP and 33 Def. By applying a HP and Defense Tonic (+2), Rally Defense (+4), An Oni Cheiftain Pair up (+4) Horse Spirit(+3), and Weapon Triangle advantage (+2), she has effectively 48 defense. That means she takes a measly 5 damage, so even if she got crit twice she'd still be able live. Not to mention she'd only face 9% crits before buffs.
  10. Even if you discounted Oni, there's still better classes available to Rinkah such as Paladin, Master of Arms, or even Black Smith. Spear Master has nothing going for it other than Seal Skills, which aren't exactly useful when you one round most enemies. It's most certainly not worth putting up with E lances for. And if we're mentioning weapons that increase stats, the Horse Spirit is leagues ahead of the Guard Naginata. Using a unit who has effectively -9 luck isn't exactly the best point of reference when judging enemy crit rates. May I also remind you that even as far chapter 23, no enemy has crit rates that reach even the double digits: https://imgur.com/a/SqKArFB About the only enemies who have a sizeable crit rate are berserkers. But not only are they rather limited in number, most durable units can even withstand a crit from them with enough investment.
  11. Why Spear Master? It doesn't really help Rinkah in any significant way and it's skills are nothing to write home about. Having to to deal with E Lances also does her no favors. Also, Crit Evade? Pair Up already gives +5 dodge. That's more than enough to negate the crit of most enemies, especially since the crit forumla is (Skill-4)/2.
  12. Ok, but that wasn't my question. My question is what should her end class be then? Blacksmith?
  13. 20/1 Rinkah averages 10 magic. Combine that with a Onmyoji Pair up, Magic Tonic, Fiery Blood, and Rat Sprit she ends up 23 attack. Take a look at the enemy stats in Chapter 16: https://imgur.com/a/u3FthuM As you can see that's the benchmark to one round both the Knights and the Fighters, which make up a significant portion of the map. She can even be capable of one rounding even the Dark Mages if she can wield something better than a Rat Spirit. Again, Birthright enemies are consistently low quality , making magic Benchmarks achievable even for units with low magic. I still don't understand your disdain Oni Chieftain, but putting that aside, what do you think is the best end class for her?
  14. if you're that cornered about accuracy, just uses tomes. Enemies are weak enough to the point that even with the Rat Sprint will be enough for her. Why wouldn't you? It provides decent durability, access to tomes for 1-2 range, and a sizable increase to magic to utilize them and the Bolt Axe. What would you even rather prefer? Blacksmith?
  15. How is it a bad solution when it makes said weaker units capable of one rounding most enemies?
  16. The issue with Mozu is that you simply don't need those extra stats. She's not competing against the other units in your army, she's competing against the enemy who don't require much to be one rounded. Thus her performance isn't that great because there's a noticeable period where she is substantially worse than every other unit available and she doesn't accomplish anything notable that another unit isn't capable of doing with the same investment. It's the same logic as to why Reina is better than Subaki. Sure, at the same level Subaki might be better than her, but she's still capable enough to consistently defeat most enemies, and doesn't require any investment to do so. Also, you might want to consider some brevity in your post, or at least format it such a way that it that the length doesn't dilute your point. Having it posted like this may lead to some people merely skimming your post rather than read it in depth.
  17. Heart seals become infinite by chapter 20, and you saw how weak the enemies were in that chapter. Prior to Chapter 22 RInkah has no issues one rounding even without an Onmyoji Pair up, and by that point you have an excess amount of funds to spend. Also, Priestess Sakura? Renewal might be an decent skill, but it most definitely not worth being Bowlocked for. The Oni Savages were used as point of reference, as they have 8 speed. For some prescriptive, that's the exact same speed as the Wyvern Knights in Chapter 13 have. Enemy units in Birthright don't scale enough for her to not be doubling with investment. I'm also unsure why you're valuing Speed Pair ups so much. Almost 2/3rd's of the entire cast of Birthright give speed, so there's more than enough to go around. Hp is far less relevant than defense since having the difference of 2 defense means taking less than 8 damage if you encounter 4 enemies on enemy phase. Hp Tonics also increase it 5, making it an non issue. But you know what? Lets actually look at the number to see if it's relevant as you claim. Average 20/8 RInkah has 29 HP and 27 defense. With the relevant tonics and a rally, that brings it up to 34 HP and 33 Def. Hardest hitting enemy in the last route map consist of Wyvern Lords in Chapter 23 with 41 attack, meaning that Rinkah gets five Round Ko'd. And that's failing to include the dual gauge, defensive pairups, and weapons that give defense such as the Horse Spirit. And what makes this even better is that she can also one round them, considering that they only have 43 HP and 9 Resistance, it only takes 31 attack to one round them, which she can easily obtain. What exactly do you mean by sacrificing a better unit? You could easily put on a unit you don't find good, such as Orochi, and he'll do well enough with a Bolt Naginata. And while Hinoka and Caeldori may be better than him combat wise, but by having him deployed you don't need to focus their turns on rallying.
  18. Thing is it doesn't take much to fix the issues those units have. Things such as Pair Ups and tonics aren't particularly rare or can't be replaced. If you really disliked raising both Diviners and Sakura, you could just use reclass a unit like Kaden to Onmyoji and have the same benefit as if you invested in Hayoto in terms of giving Rinkah a pair up bot. You also overestimate the problems those units have. A Base level Rinkah in chapter 8 is capable of one rounding both the Fighter and the Cavaliers in that map and is only one strength proc off of one rounding the soldiers. And Orochi is capable of doubling both the Oni Savages and the Knights without a single Speed proc and can rely on the Horse Spirit to patch it up even further to regularly double most enemies. Subaki is about the only unit who is incapable of one rounding at base due to needing both strength and speed, but he requires no level ups at all to ferry units around and can even be viable as a combat unit with some investment to obtain Rally Speed. He won't be good for late game, but not all units have to be viable for combat late game if they can provide utility all game long.
  19. On topic though, I have very little idea where TC is coming from. Pre promotes don't need to gain that many levels since their stats are more than adequate for most of the game. Even if they weren't, it wouldn't matter that much with how many different ways they are to boost stats. I especially don't see how healers are the first units to promote, let alone reach level 20 in a reasonable time frame. It'd take a unit like Sakura ~170 uses of Bloom Festal to get her to level 20, which I don't see happening before someone else promotes. It just feels like to me that TC is aiming to just roll over the game with overpowered units and is unsatisfied that they can't get 20/20 before the end game. That's so alien from the way I play that I have a hard time comprehending this without him explaining his perspective. By that logic Speedrunners must really actively dislike a game if they're willing to dedicate tens, of not hundred of hours, just to beat it a little faster.
  20. I feel as though people aren't bringing up some points about the Reddit tier list that help to explain some placements on the list that otherwise would look out place. -To begin with, how they judge unit. The community holds itself to a 'efficient' standard. That means that they try clear maps at a brisk pace by limiting the amount of turns a chapter takes. So that means strategies such as turtling won't be in play, nor will they ever stop to grind for unit. To that end, units are largely judged by the capability to one round, their availability, the amount of investment they need to preform, and their utility. So having high base stats, 1-2 range, 8 movement, and being able to withstand enemy phase are the marks of a good unit. -One thing to take also into account is how for the abundance of ways to increase stats. Pair Ups, Tonics, Skills, Rallies, and Forges make it so that any issues any unit may have, be it with speed, durability, or offense can easily be remedied. When you can easily stack +6 Strength and +10 Defense on a unit, the differences in stats tend to be marginal, so it's more unique properties such as high movement or 1-2 range that influence a unit's position. -And one last thing to note, and arguably most importantly, is to consider the enemy quality of Birthright, or lack of there of. Enemy quality is the metric all units judged by, but Birthright enemies are infamously stagnant until the late game. Take, for example, the faceless of Mozu's Paralouge and the ones that make up Chapter 20: https://imgur.com/a/2Voukpo As you can see, the midgame of Birthright is where enemies remain rather stagnant, as a majority of enemies aren't even promoted until chapter 21. Because of this, having low stats isn't that much of an issue because the enemy themselves are rather weak. Even during the latgame, where they may have better stats, there are more options available to make up for that difference as described above. Here is a imgur gallery of enemy stats in Birthright for those curious: https://imgur.com/a/nCo2b16 Now with metrics out of the way, lets discuss some actual placements on the list: -Saizo is placed higher than Ryoma mainly because of his availability. While Ryoma can easily one round most enemies with ease, it ends up being overkill for most enemies. Saizo is more than capable of one rounding almost every unit Ryoma is capable of. As a result, Saizo's is higher valued than him because those 6 early game chapters of availability matters more considering that 1-2 range units are limited for that section and most of those chapter are route maps with 2 range enemies. -Reina is highly rated because she takes no investment to one round enemies even during the late game on top of having high movement. Her stats and weapon ranks means that she's capable of utilizing effective weapons such as the Beast Killer and the Sword Catcher to help deal with enemies while also allowing her to capitalize movement and her personal skill. She can have access to 1-2 range by reclassing to Master Ninja, though that admittedly is at the cost of flight. -Felicia is highly regarded not for her innate reclass abilities or staffing utilities, but for being able to S rank Corrin and learn promoted level 15 skill before the start of the mid game. By allowing her to marry, say, a Wyvern Corrin, she's able to pick up Malig Knight, which compliments her magic for 1-2 range, helps to patch up her durability and give her 8 Mov flight, all on top of learning Trample by level 15. -Rinkah is above Takumi and Oboro because she's able to obtain 1-2 range weapon in the form of the Bolt Axe. While that may seem a ludicrous suggestion at first, it's possible for Rinkah to with it obtain 33 attack without gaining a single point of magic as a Oni Chieftain. Her personal is also of note since it's damage is almost on par with a -faire skill and helps out her offensive all game long. She can also activate it on the first turn just by using a HP tonic. -Subaki is also highly valued as he allows for other units to be carried around other units over terrain and can utilize the Bolt Naginata. While he will eventually fall off during the late game, he still has access to rally speed to help other unit double. -Takumi is mid tiered for being Bow Locked. This is rather a bad thing since enemy phase is where almost all the combat happens in a efficient playthrough. Being unable to retaliate on 1 range enemies is a immense downside since that's what makes up the vast majority of the enemy forces. While he may be able to retaliate on some 2 range with some positioning, it's rather situational and is far less efficient than just throwing a 1-2 range unit at the enemy. -Yukimura is pretty mediocre and has low availability, but that's why he's the second worst unit on the list. -Mozu is at the very bottom of the list because she has all the disadvantages of being Bow Locked on top of having some of the lowest bases in the game. While with investment she'll eventually be able out stat other units, it again doesn't really matter because of how low one rounding benchmarks are in Birthright. Most importantly, however, she takes away a scarce resource that significantly improves units that are better than her just to be useable. You don't get another heart seal until the level 2 staff shop, and by then it's it's difficult to one round enemies with bronze weapons.
  21. Can here somebody do me a favor a create a topic for this stat sheet? It's over enemy stats on Lunatic: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vXDWKA7hEsgyOBH4TRErrjeFvrs4O4xDHeVd0d1POv0/htmlview#gid=0 I'd do it myself, but I cannot create topics on this account.
  22. LoneRecon400

    Hello

    Been Lurking around here, figured I might as well make an account to join the discussion. Btw does anyone also know how to create topics? I been meaning to share a Stat Sheet I've created in the Fates section, but it's not allowing me to post topics.
  23. It's not so much mages fall off, it's more that other units just get a lot better while they remain largely the same. Past act 1, it's not that hard for units in other classes to one round most enemy units as Combat artes, weapons with effective damage, and 3rd tier units all make short work of most enemy units. Meanwhile, mage's only claim to fame is Excalibur, which has to rely critical hits to one round until the Speed Ring. Even with the Speed Ring, doubling with Sagittae makes them lose half their HP, and may not even be able enough to one round bulkier enemies such as Barons. Not to mention this requires them to reach level 15, which is quite a substantial amount of investment. Even if this was the case, it still doesn't mean that Mage!Kliff contributions are particular unique and can't be replaced. Luthier can replace his role without requiring any investment in act 1 like Kliff does, and about the only difference in their performance is that Kliff would be able to double some cavaliers, but they can be easily taken out by other units.
  24. I typically don't like including a unit's performance In dungeons, since they are simply too variable. Some players may go out of their way to fight every encounter, while others may avoid all of them. So I typically like to assume the latter just so that EXP distribution is more prevalent of an issue, as grinding can make any unit turn out good. Even if we did include dungeon encounters, however, I'd have a hard time imaging getting Kliff to level 9 any sooner then 3-2. There's no rush to use the fountains, as no one really changes in performance as much as Clive does. Tobin, one of the best example of who to give it to, only manages to double with two points. Clive, on the other hand, goes from doing mediocre damage to straight up one rounding enemies with the Ridersbane. Getting him to double the Cavaliers in 3-6 isn't that difficult either, as he only needs to get to level 5 in order to double all but 4 of them. Even if he didn't hit that benchmark, he could still OHKO all of the cavaliers with a maxed forged Ridersbane. And while Clive may be inferior to Mathilda at base, given investment he can turn out to be on par with or even better then her. In particular, by promoting him to Gold Knight at the end of act 3, he'll actually be better then her until she promotes at Fear Shrine, since Gold Knight's base stats can really change a unit's performance. It's a small increase to be sure, but it does make Tobin able to double some units that he otherwise wouldn't be able to on enemy phase. Sofia Gate, Last Bastion and Rigel Castle all have positions where only archers can counterattack, which can make that extra point in speed make the difference between one rounding a only dealing chip damage. While this is true, what these example were tying to demonstrate was how useful those points in speed can be on some units. While they might not be absolutely critical, a unit that needs to be given all three just obtain passable combat is not the hallmark of good unit, especially with how mages lose their effectiveness as the game goes on.
  25. Kliff learns Excalibur by level 9. It'll be well into act 3 by the time he gets it, and by that point mages are overshadowed by practically every class barring Soldiers. If anything, Tobin shines the most in a LTC since he's can consistently double all the units before and in Thieves Shrine, while Kliff cannot, allowing him to promote by then rather then later like Kliff needs to. Besides, LTC is a bad metric to judge units by, as it skews a unit's role by denying units the resources they need. Using LTC as metric to judge units would mean units such as Catria and Kamui would be considered mediocre units since there's not enough experience to promote them, as most experience will be funneled to Saber and Palla, even though they're roughly on par with them in normal play. Except that involves giving him all three points of speed, which can very valuable for letting other units hit some benchmarks. For example, by promoting Clive to Paladin and giving him a point of speed, he is then able to double a majority of Cavaliers in act 3 with the Ridersbane. By giving a point to Archer!Tobin, it allows him to double archers in 3-5 with the Killer Bow equipped with only needing one proc of speed and helps him to learn Hunter's Volley faster. A point could also be given to Slique, allowing her to avoid being doubled by enemy archers and also allows her to double some of the bandits in 1-3, thus allowing her the chance to get more experience for warp. All of these are better cases to give points of speed to rather then a unit who's still reliant on the RNG to hit the benchmark to reliably double enemy units even with all three. Because Warp is just that valuable. Being able to move a unit additional tiles without have to account for terrain is huge boon in practically every map, not to mention allows for many more strategies that would have been otherwise impossible. A prime example of this would be 1-7, Zofia Gate. By allowing Silque to get Warp by that point, not only can you remove the threat of archers form attacking someone unable to counterattack, it allows for units to bait the group of cavaliers to attacking you on the stairs, thus not having to suffer the terrain penalties of tiles. Though, I do agree with giving all three points to her to achieve this is a bit extreme.
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