OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

To avoid stupid conclusions like: "Renning < Fiona, because Renning is never going to be deployed anyway". If a Lyre vs. Fiona comparison boils down to Lyre's shoving vs. Fiona's trade/rescue/gauge-manipulation utility, so be it. Neither can become a worthwhile combatent in HM without taking resources that would be better used elsewhere.

I never said otherwise, but then what's the point? That's hardly different from the way it is now. And if drafts are anything to go by, they can both become competent enough without killing the team with some effort. I'm pretty sure the idea here is that we're trying to go in a different direction, so I believe we should at least test what might seem like uncomfortable waters.

Why?

Seriously? Should it also be assumed that 5% displayed Hit is lethal?

If you can get Rafiel to the top of 4-4, you can get anyone else up there as well.

Given enough turns, sure. But I'm pretty sure I can get Rafiel up there faster than I can get Titania up there.

[Naglfar]

If you can get Rafiel to the top of 4-4, you can get anyone else up there as well.

Different routes, bro.

Why?

It's a bit like saying "well 95 displayed hit misses sometimes". It happens, but it's so likely to hit, much like how Haar is used in just about every playthrough shooting for efficiency, that you may as well assume it's happening. It's common sense. Don't be pedantic.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Naglfar

[Anouleth]

Given enough turns, sure. But I'm pretty sure I can get Rafiel up there faster than I can get Titania up there.

Aside from mounted units and like, Generals, obviously. But every other type of unit shouldn't be behind Rafiel, and it's not a problem to leave Titania on the bottom floor to kill the enemies there.

[Florete]

Aside from mounted units and like, Generals, obviously. But every other type of unit shouldn't be behind Rafiel, and it's not a problem to leave Titania on the bottom floor to kill the enemies there.

That's a discussion for later. I was giving an example of a possible contribution Oliver is theoretically in the best position for.

[Anouleth]

That's a discussion for later. I was giving an example of a possible contribution Oliver is theoretically in the best position for.

I applaud your desire to find an area in which Oliver can contribute to an efficient playthrough, but sadly, I feel your efforts are wasted on him.

[Florete]

I applaud your desire to find an area in which Oliver can contribute to an efficient playthrough, but sadly, I feel your efforts are wasted on him.

Thanks. Now get back to what matters, please.

[Naglfar]

I applaud your desire to find an area in which Oliver can contribute to an efficient playthrough, but sadly, I feel your efforts are wasted on him.

Indeed, the Rescue idea is interesting, but I think by the time Oliver is recruited, wouldn't Rafiel + whoever is already there be enough to deal with the enemies up top? Besides, I'd want Rescue for 4-5 too. Smells like a 1-turn clear or something. I don't know.

[Lord Raven]

I applaud your desire to find an area in which Oliver can contribute to an efficient playthrough, but sadly, I feel your efforts are wasted on him.

This contradicts every argument you used against me in the other thread when you misinterpreted the point I tried to make. Edited September 26, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

If we don't do that, what's the point in even giving free deployment? Who's better between Fiona and Lyre when both just suck forever? For a character like Geoffrey, theoretically yes, but at that point he'd probably be easily seen as worse than whoever he's being compared to (due to needing resources), so it wouldn't make much difference.

Fiona can make some minor contributions through rescue-dropping, chucking Javelins, blocking ledges. Fiona is thus, more useful. If we give Lyre a ton of resources, that just turns her from a net neutral (contributes nothing) to a net negative since nothing she can do can make up for the resources she takes.

I'm also trying to veer more towards how someone would actually play if using these characters. If I'm playing the game and it's decided that Fiona is on my team, chances are I want her to do something.

So do I, but it's not "eat all my BEXP only to still suck". If I was playing a draft and I was given Lyre, would I attempt to train her? No, even when Lyre is forced deployment, it's still better to just have her sit in a corner and try not to get in your way. Thus, I don't think that Lyre's position is changed. Even when she is forced into all her chapters, she still cannot make any meaningful contributions.

If you have a better way to keep a consistent ruleset, I'd love to see it.

I'm happy to give these horrible, horrible characters free deployment. But I don't think that giving them all the resources in the world to make them competent is a wise thing to do even for the sake of comparison.

This contradicts every argument you used against me in the other thread when you misinterpreted the point I tried to make.

There is a gulf of difference between being unable to contribute to an optimal playthrough and being unable to contribute to an efficient playthrough.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Anouleth

[Florete]

I'm happy to give these horrible, horrible characters free deployment. But I don't think that giving them all the resources in the world to make them competent is a wise thing to do even for the sake of comparison.

You're overestimating the problem here. To make them competent by, say, part 4 should not require enough to make a significant negative impact on the rest of the team. If it does, then, well, that'll drag the unit down the list. If they are literally so bad that they become a resource sink to still suck massively, clearly this unit deserves their position at the bottom of the list.

[Naglfar]

I'm going to do a "give Fiona and Lyre all the resources in the world" playthrough.

[Lord Raven]

There is a gulf of difference between being unable to contribute to an optimal playthrough and being unable to contribute to an efficient playthrough.

I don't get why Sephiran is so high if Oliver does almost the exact same thing at the end. He barely does anything to the Auras... any advantages he has over Oliver (aside from Oliver using a deployment slot that nobody really needs to begin with) are otherwise negligible and Fortify does almost the exact same thing an Ashera Staff does. And Sephiran isn't always recruited either.

[Naglfar]

I don't get why Sephiran is so high if Oliver does almost the exact same thing at the end. He barely does anything to the Auras... any advantages he has over Oliver (aside from Oliver using a deployment slot that nobody really needs to begin with) are otherwise negligible and Fortify does almost the exact same thing an Ashera Staff does. And Sephiran isn't always recruited either.

Uh, insurance? Nobody else has to Fortify? Still too high though.

[Anouleth]

I don't get why Sephiran is so high if Oliver does almost the exact same thing at the end. He barely does anything to the Auras... any advantages he has over Oliver (aside from Oliver using a deployment slot that nobody really needs to begin with) are otherwise negligible and Fortify does almost the exact same thing an Ashera Staff does. And Sephiran isn't always recruited either.

True. Lehran should probably be a lot lower! I don't really agree with your comment about recruitment. Not being recruited doesn't make a character any less good or bad, I think.

However, Lehran can do quite decent damage to Auras. He deals 44/90 damage to Cover Auras with Rexaura, for instance.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

I'm not necessarily saying Sephiran should be lower. I'm mainly saying that he shouldn't be as high compared to Oliver because he contributes virtually nothing to efficiency as well. That is, if you consider Oliver's contributions to be nothing then you may as well say the same about Sephiran because even if he is more or less a forced character when he's recruiting, the fact still stands that you don't need that final slot and how little a difference it makes, and the other fact still stands that Fortify Oliver is doing the same thing as Ashera Staff Sephiran except Sephiran won't always be recruited for him to be completely trumped.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Narga_Rocks]

I think you can allow free deployment without ignoring the whole opportunity cost of resources thing (eg giving Lyre energy drops). Just don't consider a deployment slot to be a resource and you are good. As pointed out before, it's possible that "losing" one deployment slot per map in order to field trash like Lyre won't actually cost any turns, so there is perhaps precedent for allowing free deployment. I don't see any precedent for ignoring that there are better destinations for energy drops. Another interesting problem to settle is cexp, but if dondon can play this thing with low turns on 0% growths then perhaps losing some cexp from Titania and co (after important promotions) isn't such a bad thing.

Moving on to Oliver and Sephiran, part of Seph's benefit is the ability to just be free. If we are no longer worrying so much about deployment, it's possible he's no longer in the right spot. Seph is mostly a healbot. He may do decent damage to Auras (if you actually pull off SS LIght on Micaiah in time) but since it is over in 2 turns anyway his damage doesn't really matter. Oliver > Seph may have some modicum of merit.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[aku chi]

And if drafts are anything to go by, they can both become competent enough without killing the team with some effort.

Are you talking about HM drafts? Because having effectively 1/4 the Bexp makes a huge difference for gutter trash units like Fiona, Meg, Astrid, and Lyre. I'm pretty sure we could give Fiona all of the DB's Bexp in HM and still have an underleveled crappy unit in 3-13. Unfortunately, training Fiona just isn't worth talking about in HM. Now, if this tier list considers NM playthroughs, that changes things a bit (though it's still a big waste to try to train these units in most circumstances).

Seriously? Should it also be assumed that 5% displayed Hit is lethal?

If draft runs are relevant (which I think they should be, when their goal is efficiency), then Haar cannot be assumed to be in play.

[Naglfar]

If draft runs are relevant (which I think they should be, when their goal is efficiency), then Haar cannot be assumed to be in play.

This is not the draft tier list.

[RNG Princess]

I'm really glad for this new approach ^^' and I think its going to make many changes.

Are you talking about HM drafts? Because having effectively 1/4 the Bexp makes a huge difference for gutter trash units like Fiona, Meg, Astrid, and Lyre. I'm pretty sure we could give Fiona all of the DB's Bexp in HM and still have an underleveled crappy unit in 3-13. Unfortunately, training Fiona just isn't worth talking about in HM. Now, if this tier list considers NM playthroughs, that changes things a bit (though it's still a big waste to try to train these units in most circumstances).

I agree with this, I used her on a hm pt and she didn't become decent until late part 4. With good levels and alot of babysitting she still always had issues either durability or sometimes speed but mainly durability and crappy damage output. Lyre isn't any different, I could see her get BEXP+Blossom though and maybe wrath could help alittle bit but she'll definitely eat up BEXP and she never gets to S strike in time (NM talk).

I'm not sure about Meg or Astrid though, I think Astrid is better with Blossom than BEXP levels.

[Dark Sage]

I don't see how Meg can possibly be any better than Fiona. She can shove I guess? Meg's pretty much unfixable due to having ass move and being ORKO'd by nearly everything on a map. And even when trained and promoted, she still has to deal with her fail Tier 2 speed cap.

I mean, Fiona's completely unfixable as well, but at least she has vague forms of utility, like aiding in a quicker clear in 1-E through rescuing, or chipping to lower laguz gauge and countering or whatever. Meg really can't do any of that.

[Vicious Sal]

Fiona has ass movement as well because she's mounted. She can't even leave the island at 3-6, meg's move > fiona. Indoor maps reduce her move by 2.

[Dark Sage]

Fiona has more movement than Meg even indoors because 6 move>5 move. In other maps, her move easily trounces Meg's and not only that, she has Canto. Furthermore, neither Meg nor Fiona should leave the island in 3-6.

[Narga_Rocks]

Fiona has more movement than Meg even indoors because 6 move>5 move. In other maps, her move easily trounces Meg's and not only that, she has Canto. Furthermore, neither Meg nor Fiona should leave the island in 3-6.

It's interesting that Meg can't climb, either, since tier 1 armors can't climb. However, I'm not certain what "other maps" you mean. In 3-6 they practically have the same move (only promoted can Meg leave the island, and she's not likely promoted) except Fiona can play around with rescue more safely I guess. In 1-7, 1-E, and 3-13 they have similarly crappy move (though not the same), but the point is there isn't any trouncing except 3-12 and part 4. Poor Fiona.

Maybe the person was thinking fe5 where mounted units lose 3 move when they go indoors? (or dismount for other reasons)

[Dark Sage]

However, I'm not certain what "other maps" you mean. In 3-6 they practically have the same move (only promoted can Meg leave the island, and she's not likely promoted) except Fiona can play around with rescue more safely I guess. In 1-7, 1-E, and 3-13 they have similarly crappy move (though not the same), but the point is there isn't any trouncing except 3-12 and part 4. Poor Fiona.

Basically any map not indoors, but the point was to say that Fiona's move is not worse than Meg's like what Vicious Sal was asserting.

I think Meg's big thing over Fiona is shoving, but is Meg's shoving really better than Fiona's rescuing? Especially since Meg is not particularly good at shoving and has a bazillion units who can do that instead while Fiona only has Jill to compete with rescuing (and they can work well in tangent with rescuing).

Edited September 26, 2011 by Clockwork Sage

[incognit0]

I have been arguing Fiona to the top of bottom (I would even be ok with behind Astrid, although Fiona is still clearly more useful) but people stopped listening. Fiona has tangible, dependable utility that ANYONE who is attempting to low turn would be foolish not to use.