FE9 Tier list v3

[Life]

Shove jigsaw puzzles and positioning aren't hard. 2 turns is a far more significant contribution than many other units.

Marcia needs 6 shoves and the Boots to make it to the Arrive in 2 turns. Considering that it's near impossible to get that 6th one due to not having enough units to shove her (notice how PROMOTED Gatrie, Lethe, Muarim and Mordecai were all fielded), I'm going to go ahead and say that you're overrating your own abilities by a country mile.

EDIT: Marcia has 24 Wt after promotion. Transformed Lethe can shove her, Mordecai can Smite her, Muarim can shove her and promoted Gatrie/Brom with BOTH Statue Frags can shove her. Yeah, I'm going to rule out a 2 turn clear of 17-2. You guys? Remember that one Statue Frag is in the top right cell of Chapter 10 (which means getting Volke there and I think I barely did that in 12 turns on my run) and the other is hidden at the far right side of the desert. That's at least 3 turns (Jill/Marcia rescue drops Volke/Sothe on Turn 2 while the other goes towards Muarim).

Actually, I'm going to fully revise my statement. Those turns that you claim that Marcia saves? She isn't because it costs us even more turns earlier in the run.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Anouleth]

The cost of recruiting a character isn't factored into their tier position.

[Lord Raven]

Otherwise, Jill would not be so high up because she costs even more turns to recruit.

by the way Zaphod, because you have *such* a smart mouth, here you go. He was right that you can easily shove Marcia into position.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Kaoz]

I believe Life was refering to the amount of turns it takes to get the Statue Frags, and that getting them would cost more turns than the shoves would safe in the end.

[Narga_Rocks]

I thought we didn't factor in stupid shit like 2% chances into spots on a tier list. It's the same thing I see about Aran and I personally think that it's silly.

So you think a guy that doesn't take 2% to die from everything is on equal footing with a guy that does? Personally I think that's silly. I'd rather have that better chance at not reaching for the reset, thanks. Same reason I'd send a unit with decent res after those elthunder mages if I can avoid the 3HKO since that +10 crit tends to result in >0% on most units. Reliability should be important or we might as well make a tier list for speed runs.

And yes, while I only showed that he can't be 2HKO'd for a long time, the fact is that it matters because Stefan doesn't have the move to keep up with the Paladins. Therefore, he takes significantly less hits in later chapters (like Chapter 24 for example) and his defensive parameters are more than enough to keep him alive.

Well of course it's important that he doesn't get 2HKO'd and it boosts his survivability. I just still think his durability is poor. It's not bad, that's why I'd say poor. Well, probably mediocre, actually. Mediocre durability.

And I wasn't attempting to prove Stefan > Tormod by saying his durability is piss poor (it's not), I was just pointing out that it's not as bad as everyone likes to make it out to be. Plus, with regards to Mia, she's usually got to be sitting at half HP for her offense to work while Stefan can be at full HP, which is a point in Stefan's favour on the defensive side.

Well, Mia isn't that far away from Stefan for str. With BB Rhys Ilyana she's looking at 14 str + 3 for 17 base mt at just 20/2 compared to Stefan's 19. Mia gets +15 hit out of those supports, so instead of Stefan's 59 base hit Mia has 65, which can make a difference on weapons like a silver blade sometimes. Now, without supports Mia has some serious issues competing with Stefan in offence assuming no Wrath, or when above 50% hp, as she loses mt by 5 and hit by 9. But then, Stefan is quite clearly above her on the list right now. Besides, I agree with you that Stefan > Tormod anyway, so what's it matter?

[aku chi]

by the way Zaphod, because you have *such* a smart mouth, here you go. He was right that you can easily shove Marcia into position.

I'm not sure how the word "easy" would apply to a particular strategy, but a strategy that depends upon:

- Promoted Marcia with the Boots

- Mordecai, Muarim, and Lethe

- 2 of { promoted Oscar, promoted Kieran, Jill, promoted Makalov }

- Perfectly planned deployment in C17-1

could be accurately described as strict or inflexible.

I'll be responding to the rest this evening.

[Lord Raven]

The last one is a non-issue considering you can use WoD to find the perfect deployment.

Promoted Marcia with Boots is what we're arguing.

Muarim, Mordecai, and Lethe isn't a big deal, we may lose an extra deployment slot for a unit that wants EXP but i guess having two transformed laguz isn't a bad thing.

I honestly don't think promoted Oscar/Jill/Makalov is that big an issue, though I could be wrong. The strategy showed that happening, and it is likely to happen at that point in the game (esp if you're not raising as big a team as I tried), but...

Edited August 29, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

you've said so yourself that Soren doesn't help much in the first half of the game (you have all but outright stated it) and that Tormod is winning the second half of the game, so I don't understand your argument behind why Soren > Tormod.

I actually said that Soren's contributions before Tormod joins are the prime reason why he is > Tormod, so I obviously don't find them insignificant. Soren helps with routs in C7 and C13. He can help accomplish secondary objectives in C9, C11, and C14. He can be a crucial element in a 100% 3-turn clear of C15. Considering that Soren retains some advantages over Tormod in their shared availability, I have no doubt that Soren > Tormod despite Tormod being better in several of their shared chapters.

There's not much to tear up in the chapter that we need a transformed Mordecai.

You know those enemies that show up when you don't go stealth? Yeah, there are a lot of them and they block the way. Transformed Mordecai can help enable a 3-turn clear of C10. Is it the best use of a laguz stone? No. But it might be in the top 4, especially if we aren't giving Reyson the Boots.

Can Oscar contribute to a low turn clear of multiple chapters later on? Probably, but he's nowhere near the crux of it like a flying unit is.

[devil's advocate]I thought we had plenty of Bexp?[/devil's advocate]

Marcia's are pretty unique in C11 too if you're 3-turning, and if you're 5-turning then she can easily hit the Arrive Square while Kieran and Oscar are fighting off enemies for EXP. It's a win-win, especially since Titania can off the Armor on Turn 5 then Marcia only needs to fly over some things to Arrive.

I didn't mean to imply that Marcia was worthless in C11, it just isn't a big win for her over Oscar or Titania, if at all.

They're still useful. You don't have anyone has necessary for the rout maps, just "useful" and a flier is extremely useful if you want to get the chests open by your two shitty thieves.

Again, I didn't mean to imply that they were useless, just that they aren't particularly more useful than their grounded counterparts in C13.

Why do you harpoon 50% strategies and then say that Marcia has only an 80% chance of surviving the boss?

Harpoon? I'm admitting that Marcia is an integral component of a 2-turn clear of C14. But the caveat is that it has an ~80% reliability (where failure means a dead Marcia) and misses out on Makalov, his Red Gem, a Secret Book, and Vantage. A 3-turn 100% clear which grabs all of those spoils might, therefore, be preferred.

Biorhythm is easy enough to manipulate; you can save and restart multiple times until you get the right Biorhythm configuration. But that is beside the point sir, because ~75% displayed hit is 87.75% actual. That means she has only a... 77% chance of a 2-turn clear! God damn is that low.

Does reseting change biorythm? I don't think any kind of reset manipulation is efficient. And while 87.75% may be the median true hit, 59.95% is the minimum true hit, so the mean true hit is actually lower. And I wouldn't consider 75% especially reliable. If we fail, we certainly sacrifice the pacifist clear and might lose Marcia in the process. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider more reliable 3-turn clears, especially considering we can get a couple more treasures in the extra turn. We can get Stefan (and a chance at the White Gem) in 4 turns, so I don't think that should be discounted either.

I pulled it off. I had Kieran with Knight Ward, Oscar, and an overleveled Astrid as well as a Tanith who kept back (and lured a Wyvern away from Jill/Marcia) and was able to get Rescue on Turn 2.

I know it's possible, but it's not easy. So while a Paladin isn't directly influential to a 2-turn clear of C20, they can be instrumental in obtaining one of the most important valuables by the second turn. Something that not any old unit can pull off.

Of course you need Paladins, but that's also Normal Mode. I have no reason to believe either unless it's hard mode.

That's an immature sentiment. A more mature sentiment might be that you have no particular reason to disbelieve that it would be possible in Hard Mode, but you aren't completely convinced. The differences between the chapter layouts in NM and HM are often trivial; the biggest exceptions are C28 and Endgame, I believe. There's an extra siege tome user in C18 and an extra Sleep Bishop in C21, but I can't think of any other significant differences. Of course, Silver Forges are available earlier in NM, so any strategy that relies on them when they wouldn't be available in HM is suspect.

I'll be damned, you're right. This is also kind of a funny point because they have 70% displayed hit on Schaeffer and you have to hit him 3 times. Even funnier because you harpooned Marcia for a 20% chance to die and a roughly 25% chance of not hitting twice. Of course, I didn't factor biorhythm because my "manipulate Biorhythm" trick also works on these Sages, and frankly I'd think that a roughly 55-60% chance of a 1-turn clear is quite efficient anyway, and pretty reliable.

It's possible for a trained Sage to 2HKO Schaeffer, as you'd know if you actually read my Mage analysis. That can give us a little more leeway. A 20/7 Soren actually averages 85% displayed hit with Meteor against Schaeffer on average. He also has a 24% Adept activation chance and a small crit chance, so the odds of a 1-turn clear are quite high indeed. And if we miss the 1-turn clear, nothing detrimental happens. We finish off Schaeffer on turn 2 and are just as happy. Unlike other unrealiable fast clears, this one has no risk. There's no reason not to go for it, unless you're haven't trained a Sage.

So what are you arguing? Tanith > Marcia?

I've been arguing that Tanith is better than Marcia in their shared chapters. Obviously, Marcia's large availability lead makes her better overall.

Yes, but you not only haven't verified but you've yet to show me specific strategies where this is saving more turns than Marcia.

Actually, I just did that at your request...

By the way, they won't be getting 18 spaces. You don't do 9x2, you do something like 9x1.8 or something, because of complications with Reyson's 10 move and his durability leaves a bit to be desired if you're rescue dropping him.

In general, you're correct, but C18 is so delightfully linear and easy to wall off that moving a full 9x2 spaces is actually possible. But even if you can't transport Reyson all the way to the front, the +2 mov always lets multiple units move 2 tiles further each turn (when Reyson is transformed).

Soren won't be doubling with Elthunder, he loses at least 5 Spd every single time he uses it. He won't be promoted by C17 either, that is madness, and on top of that it's easy to rout by like Turn 7 or 8 in that chapter anyway so he's not even attacking every single turn.

1) Try training less than 15 units. Promoting all of your combat units (with the possible exception of Tormod) before C17-1 is standard.

2) Promoted Soren loses 3 AS from Elthunder on average and can double almost everything with his 15 AS.

3) There is absolutely no reason to rout C17-3 early. It's a playground with which to train whichever units we want and the perfect place to raise weapon levels.

I apologize for the mishap but at the same time he not only doesn't have the durability to keep that up on top of the fact that you haven't shown the specifics behind how this helps on a relevant mode on top of how he can only do this 4 times throughout the entire game.

If I had a C18 HM save on hand I would gladly demonstrate my strategy, but I'm not in the mood to spend 15 hours to satisfy your doubts at the moment. As for Boots Reyson only being awesome in 4 chapters, Boots Marcia can only save a turn (over Boots Reyson) in 4-5 chapters maximum.

Boots Jill does nothing different than Boots Marcia in C17 except not being shoved by Lethe... well, maybe. idk I haven't seen anyone test it yet.

Presumably the 2-turn clear of C17-2 is out of Boots Jill's reach (since it requires every shove in the book and more). I'm not sure about the C18 1-turn clear, but that might also depend on shoves that won't affect Jill.

The last one is a non-issue considering you can use WoD to find the perfect deployment.

I don't know how I feel about the "tier list player" seeking extra-game information. The puzzle of C17's deployment is not easily discovered in the game itself. Nor are the locations of the hidden treasures in C15. Should we assume that those things are always known?

[Lord Raven]

I actually said that Soren's contributions before Tormod joins are the prime reason why he is > Tormod, so I obviously don't find them insignificant. Soren helps with routs in C7 and C13. He can help accomplish secondary objectives in C9, C11, and C14. He can be a crucial element in a 100% 3-turn clear of C15. Considering that Soren retains some advantages over Tormod in their shared availability, I have no doubt that Soren > Tormod despite Tormod being better in several of their shared chapters.

Soren's routs in C7 are chips, and C13's routs are essentially "Everybody can help!"... it just so happens Soren's spot can be given to any other physical unit or a thief, too, if you so wish. He does help just about as much as any other unit could, but only for a couple kills here and there.

You know those enemies that show up when you don't go stealth? Yeah, there are a lot of them and they block the way. Transformed Mordecai can help enable a 3-turn clear of C10. Is it the best use of a laguz stone? No. But it might be in the top 4, especially if we aren't giving Reyson the Boots.

Titania can kill their shit regardless of what happens.

[devil's advocate]I thought we had plenty of Bexp?[/devil's advocate]

what?

I didn't mean to imply that Marcia was worthless in C11, it just isn't a big win for her over Oscar or Titania, if at all.

If we're not using Jill, then we can resource dump Marcia all we want at this point because we don't have to sacrifice Jill -- this allows for a 3 turn. If we're not, then she allows for flexibility that makes not only her, but Kieran and Oscar stronger as well as allowing Vigilantes to live (and recruiting Zihark all the same).

Again, I didn't mean to imply that they were useless, just that they aren't particularly more useful than their grounded counterparts in C13.

If we haven't recruited Jill, Marcia and Titania basically have the exact same role; rip and tear. If not, then Marcia is almost caught up to Titania.

Harpoon? I'm admitting that Marcia is an integral component of a 2-turn clear of C14. But the caveat is that it has an ~80% reliability (where failure means a dead Marcia) and misses out on Makalov, his Red Gem, a Secret Book, and Vantage. A 3-turn 100% clear which grabs all of those spoils might, therefore, be preferred.

...80% is a very good chance. Sothe and Volke can easily nab a couple items (namely Boots and Physic staff) and either survive a hit (Volke) or get rescued by Jill (Sothe) or equip a laguzguard (Sothe, again) to live for the next turn.

Does reseting change biorythm? I don't think any kind of reset manipulation is efficient.

Yes and I doubt you have to do that many.

And while 87.75% may be the median true hit, 59.95% is the minimum true hit, so the mean true hit is actually lower. And I wouldn't consider 75% especially reliable. If we fail, we certainly sacrifice the pacifist clear and might lose Marcia in the process. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider more reliable 3-turn clears, especially considering we can get a couple more treasures in the extra turn. We can get Stefan (and a chance at the White Gem) in 4 turns, so I don't think that should be discounted either.

Why the balls isn't 75% reliable? What, so your standard hit rate in a rout chapter isn't reliable? Should I not kill a tiger with Boyd who is Level 20.60 because he only has like 65% displayed hit on him, even if Boyd can live through the attack and try again on something else anyway?

I know it's possible, but it's not easy. So while a Paladin isn't directly influential to a 2-turn clear of C20, they can be instrumental in obtaining one of the most important valuables by the second turn. Something that not any old unit can pull off.

It's plenty easy, maybe not to strategize but it's not like we breeze through the chapter once and never touch the game again. It does take a lot of trial and error to see what generally happens and what works out to be the most efficient strategy for your own purposes.

That's an immature sentiment. A more mature sentiment might be that you have no particular reason to disbelieve that it would be possible in Hard Mode, but you aren't completely convinced. The differences between the chapter layouts in NM and HM are often trivial; the biggest exceptions are C28 and Endgame, I believe. There's an extra siege tome user in C18 and an extra Sleep Bishop in C21, but I can't think of any other significant differences. Of course, Silver Forges are available earlier in NM, so any strategy that relies on them when they wouldn't be available in HM is suspect.

Petty semantics, you've still yet to convince me.

It's possible for a trained Sage to 2HKO Schaeffer, as you'd know if you actually read my Mage analysis. That can give us a little more leeway. A 20/7 Soren actually averages 85% displayed hit with Meteor against Schaeffer on average. He also has a 24% Adept activation chance and a small crit chance, so the odds of a 1-turn clear are quite high indeed. And if we miss the 1-turn clear, nothing detrimental happens. We finish off Schaeffer on turn 2 and are just as happy. Unlike other unrealiable fast clears, this one has no risk. There's no reason not to go for it, unless you're haven't trained a Sage.

Soren is _not_ going to be 20/7 at that point in the game unless you give him an Arms Scroll for Meteor and a *ton* more BEXP than expected, as well as slowing down each chapter to have him hit that range of EXP and God knows what else. What the hell are you thinking?

Furthermore, don't pull this "75% isn't reliable!!" and "80% omg she'll get killed in that other 20%" bullshit on me if you're going to boast that Soren has a "small crit chance" and "24% adept rate" on a Soren that doesn't even exist on an efficient run. He needs to 2HKO and he has a roughly 20% chance to do so, thats not 100% efficient so it can't be reliable! It's hypocritical.

I've been arguing that Tanith is better than Marcia in their shared chapters.

Only with the exact same resource dump she will never get.

Actually, I just did that at your request...

Not for HM.

In general, you're correct, but C18 is so delightfully linear and easy to wall off that moving a full 9x2 spaces is actually possible. But even if you can't transport Reyson all the way to the front, the +2 mov always lets multiple units move 2 tiles further each turn (when Reyson is transformed).

Um... only 2 tiles? It stacks up when one unit is constantly using them and trying to reach things, but when one unit relies on others to reach things it becomes a problem, especially because Reyson needs to rely on mounts rescue dropping him to be of any use with +2 move over Marcia (and to rescue drop him safely you have a 1.5x move modifier and not the full 2x that you are suggesting, and don't forget the fact that you relinquish use of two of your "awesome 9 move mounts" when you do so).

1) Try training less than 15 units. Promoting all of your combat units (with the possible exception of Tormod) before C17-1 is standard.

I'm aware. Soren still won't be promoted because of how bad he is at using BEXP and how little combat he'll reach.

3) There is absolutely no reason to rout C17-3 early. It's a playground with which to train whichever units we want and the perfect place to raise weapon levels.

Why can't we rout it early, exactly?

If I had a C18 HM save on hand I would gladly demonstrate my strategy, but I'm not in the mood to spend 15 hours to satisfy your doubts at the moment. As for Boots Reyson only being awesome in 4 chapters, Boots Marcia can only save a turn (over Boots Reyson) in 4-5 chapters maximum.

One turn maximum? We've already agreed 2 turns on top of another turn in C16 (Boots anything saves 1 turn) on top of many later chapters where using a Boots flier is more efficient than a Boots Reyson. One of the chapters I'm referring to is the Geoffrey chapter where you have to Arrive -- something other than Reyson with boots is efficient. Furthermore, what about the chapters where Reyson doesn't have a laguz stone? No way in fuck are any post-C20 chapters (save C23) anything more than 5 turns at the highest while being most efficient.

Presumably the 2-turn clear of C17-2 is out of Boots Jill's reach (since it requires every shove in the book and more). I'm not sure about the C18 1-turn clear, but that might also depend on shoves that won't affect Jill.

C19 1-turn requires a ton of Shoving.

Should we assume that those things are always known?

Yes. I'm starting to agree with dondon on some of this, wording aside, that you have some strangely warped view of efficiency that's really giving your argument a bunch of holes. I don't think you're intentionally doing this either, I think you're answered every point independent of the other which makes it hard to form consistency between your points -- I know I do the same, but I do some last minute proofreading because my intuition always goes "wait!" if I get an inconsistency. Edited August 30, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

Soren's routs in C7 are chips, and C13's routs are essentially "Everybody can help!"... it just so happens Soren's spot can be given to any other physical unit or a thief, too, if you so wish. He does help just about as much as any other unit could, but only for a couple kills here and there.

Remind me what Tormod does in those chapters.

Titania can kill their shit regardless of what happens.

Not while ferrying Ike. And Titania can actually struggle with 2HKOs on the Knights (blocking the Escape squares) that base Mordecai ORKOs with ease.

what?

You can't seem to make up your mind between there being plenty and Bexp and not enough.

...80% is a very good chance. Sothe and Volke can easily nab a couple items (namely Boots and Physic staff) and either survive a hit (Volke) or get rescued by Jill (Sothe) or equip a laguzguard (Sothe, again) to live for the next turn.

Wrong chapter, bub.

Why the balls isn't 75% reliable?

25% of the time...

Should I not kill a tiger with Boyd who is Level 20.60 because he only has like 65% displayed hit on him, even if Boyd can live through the attack and try again on something else anyway?

?

It's plenty easy, maybe not to strategize but it's not like we breeze through the chapter once and never touch the game again. It does take a lot of trial and error to see what generally happens and what works out to be the most efficient strategy for your own purposes.

Again, I'm not sure how you're using the word "easy" such that it has any meaning in this context. In the event that you lost track, we were comparing Marcia vs. Oscar's performances in the chapters. There are only a few units that can get the C20 Rescue staff on turn 2. A well trained Oscar is one of them. So he can be very valuable in this chapter despite not being involved in the chapter clear.

Soren is _not_ going to be 20/7 at that point in the game unless you give him an Arms Scroll for Meteor and a *ton* more BEXP than expected, as well as slowing down each chapter to have him hit that range of EXP and God knows what else. What the hell are you thinking?

I'm thinking that it's plenty easy to have all of your combat units at least at 20/7 by C22, Soren included, if you train an optimal number of combat units (5-9, most likely). Soren might actually prefer the Bolting because it's easier for him to 2HKO Schaeffer, even if it's 5% less accurate.

Furthermore, don't pull this "75% isn't reliable!!" and "80% omg she'll get killed in that other 20%" bullshit on me if you're going to boast that Soren has a "small crit chance" and "24% adept rate" on a Soren that doesn't even exist on an efficient run. He needs to 2HKO and he has a roughly 20% chance to do so, thats not 100% efficient so it can't be reliable! It's hypocritical.

You seem to be very confused. First of all, a 20/7 Spirit Dust Soren 2HKOs Schaeffer with Meteor with ~85% displayed hit. So, in the median case, Soren has a 91.5% chance of connecting with both hits and killing Schaeffer. In the 8% chance that Soren misses one of those hits, he still has a 25+% chance to kill Schaeffer via Adept or a crit. So his fail rate is close to 6% in the median case.

Secondly, I emphasized that even if this 1-turn clear were considered unreliable, it is nevertheless not risky. If we miss killing Schaeffer on turn 1 with this strategy, nothing bad happens. No units die and no Bexp is lost. We shrug and kill Schaeffer on turn 2. This is distinctly different from most of the fast clears whose reliability I 'harp on' (harpoon is not the word you're looking for), where failing the early clear usually results in Marcia's death.

Only with the exact same resource dump she will never get.

Which is the accurate way to measure which unit is more valuable. If you merely want to claim that in a playthrough where you give Marcia 1500 Bexp, the Boots, an Energy Drop, a Dracoshield, and a Seraph Robe, she is better than Tanith in their shared chapters, I would agree. But that does not mean that Marcia is more valuable than Tanith in their shared chapters. If this sounds funny to you, I would be willing to elaborate.

Um... only 2 tiles? It stacks up when one unit is constantly using them and trying to reach things, but when one unit relies on others to reach things it becomes a problem, especially because Reyson needs to rely on mounts rescue dropping him to be of any use with +2 move over Marcia (and to rescue drop him safely you have a 1.5x move modifier and not the full 2x that you are suggesting, and don't forget the fact that you relinquish use of two of your "awesome 9 move mounts" when you do so).

You are speaking from a lack of experience and a desire to disbelieve. I'll be sure to make a public log the next time I perform a HM efficiency run with Boots Reyson to demonstrate the early clears he makes possible.

I'm aware. Soren still won't be promoted because of how bad he is at using BEXP and how little combat he'll reach.

Strange, I wasn't aware that Soren took more Bexp than other units to level up.

Why can't we rout it early, exactly?

You can do whatever the hell you want in C17-3. That's the point. If you want to develop Soren's Thunder rank, you can nearly get it from D to C in this chapter alone. If you work towards it (mostly in C17-3), Soren has no problem reaching C Thunder by C22.

One turn maximum? We've already agreed 2 turns on top of another turn in C16 (Boots anything saves 1 turn) on top of many later chapters where using a Boots flier is more efficient than a Boots Reyson. One of the chapters I'm referring to is the Geoffrey chapter where you have to Arrive -- something other than Reyson with boots is efficient. Furthermore, what about the chapters where Reyson doesn't have a laguz stone? No way in fuck are any post-C20 chapters (save C23) anything more than 5 turns at the highest while being most efficient.

I've already enumerated the chapters where Boots Marcia might save one turn over Boots Reyson.

Yes. I'm starting to agree with dondon on some of this, wording aside, that you have some strangely warped view of efficiency that's really giving your argument a bunch of holes. I don't think you're intentionally doing this either, I think you're answered every point independent of the other which makes it hard to form consistency between your points -- I know I do the same, but I do some last minute proofreading because my intuition always goes "wait!" if I get an inconsistency.

Would you be so kind as to provide examples? Consistency is a goal of mine.

Edited August 30, 2011 by aku chi

[Life]

Otherwise, Jill would not be so high up because she costs even more turns to recruit.

by the way Zaphod, because you have *such* a smart mouth, here you go. He was right that you can easily shove Marcia into position.

Couple of things wrong here.

1. I feel like you're deliberately misreading a lot of comments. I was referring to the Statue Frags needed by Brom/Gatrie in order to get the shoves. I was saying that in order to clear 17-2 in one extra turn, we're spending 3 turns in Chapter 10 and 1 in Chapter 15. Of course, you apparently think that I'm referring to Chapter 9 which wasn't mentioned at all and only a person with serious dyslexia would read it that way. Might be why arguing with you is so infuriating.

2. I hope you understand WHY I'm ruling out a 2 turn clear of 17-2. If we have only 1 way to do every chapter with the lowest turns possible, let's just get rid of the tiers altogether and just turn them into Optional and Non-Optional. Take a player who doesn't field Lethe, Mordi and Muarim in 17-1 because they want to train character <X>. Marcia can still clear the chapter in 3 turns.

3. "Argumentum ad hominem" is a logical fallacy. Stop trying to attack my character rather than my argument. Or fuck the mods and I will flame you until you run crying to Mommy.

[Lord Raven]

1. I feel like you're deliberately misreading a lot of comments. I was referring to the Statue Frags needed by Brom/Gatrie in order to get the shoves. I was saying that in order to clear 17-2 in one extra turn, we're spending 3 turns in Chapter 10 and 1 in Chapter 15.

The amount of turns spent in Chapter 10 don't even make sense. Spending 3 turns is minimum clear with no BEXP, 9 turns is maximum clear with all BEXP... and I don't at all see how that's relevant to Marcia at all.

Furthermore, you don't need Statue Frags by Brom and Gatrie to shove Marcia into position. I linked you to the thread that showed the 2-turn of 17-2 which was easily accomplished alongside a 2-turn of 17-1 and a 1-turn of 17-4 without promoted Brom/Gatrie. Chapter 15 is not relevant; in fact, *I've* gotten Boots and Physic by Turn 2 in Chapter 15. It's not hard at all, because Volke can easily survive one hit (which is all he'll be taking) and Sothe can use a Laguzguard or can be rescued by Jill -- Physic isn't even necessary.

Of course, you apparently think that I'm referring to Chapter 9 which wasn't mentioned at all and only a person with serious dyslexia would read it that way. Might be why arguing with you is so infuriating.

What the hell are you talking about? The only sensible way to take this statement:

Those turns that you claim that Marcia saves? She isn't because it costs us even more turns earlier in the run.

Is by referring to Chapter 9. A 3-turn of Chapter 10 is more or less the minimum to recruit everyone, and a 2-turn of 15 gets you the Boots.

2. I hope you understand WHY I'm ruling out a 2 turn clear of 17-2. If we have only 1 way to do every chapter with the lowest turns possible, let's just get rid of the tiers altogether and just turn them into Optional and Non-Optional. Take a player who doesn't field Lethe, Mordi and Muarim in 17-1 because they want to train character <X>. Marcia can still clear the chapter in 3 turns.

The fact of the matter is that the one 100% reliable way of doing the chapter in the lowest turns possible and those that contribute get many more points in their favor than the guys who don't do it as well. In fact, I've proposed such a thing both as a joke and as an argument, and frankly at this point I don't even know what I'm arguing in terms of Marcia because the main person I'm debating against (aku chi) seems to like to argue without a point.

3. "Argumentum ad hominem" is a logical fallacy. Stop trying to attack my character rather than my argument. Or fuck the mods and I will flame you until you run crying to Mommy.

Good luck, I doubt you'll be able to. At least I'm attacking your argument. Excuse me for not liking the fact that you're not making a relevant point to the tier list in your argument, or having very little purpose and conveying it in a semi-hostile manner. Edited August 30, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Raven, Life meant that in order to 2-turn 17-2, we're spending 3 extra turns in Chapter 10 and 1 extra turn in Chapter 15 (12 and 5 respectively) to get the Frags.

[Lord Raven]

You don't need Frags to pull off a perfect low-turn clear of Chapter 17 (that includes 17-1, 17-2, and 17-4). I've repeatedly said this and posted the proofs. I'm not stupid, you know, I argue things based upon observations I've made and experiences I've had (PEMN doesn't really apply to efficiency/low turns as I view it).

Edited August 31, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Lord Raven]

Remind me what Tormod does in those chapters.

Remind me why Soren's contributions in these chapters are large enough to place him over Tormod.

Not while ferrying Ike. And Titania can actually struggle with 2HKOs on the Knights (blocking the Escape squares) that base Mordecai ORKOs with ease.

Proof? Titania can Hammer the knight extremely easily. Mordecai's more likely to be hanging back and baiting out a vigilante or something so Lethe (or Mordecai) can reach Zihark. If not, then Titania can still take out the Knight with ease with a Hammer.

When is Titania ferrying Ike? Only place I can think of is Chapter 16 to the throne -- Marcia does that too, and in reality she won't be experiencing *heavy* combat until Turn 3 or 4 anyway where she'll be dropping Ike. She has no reason to be ferrying Ike in any other chapter aside from Chapters 1, 6, and to some extent 9 (Marcia is doing most of the ferrying, Titania clears out enemies extremely quickly so she's still not ferrying if you recruit Marcia).

You can't seem to make up your mind between there being plenty and Bexp and not enough.

I wasn't aware of how it was relevant.

Wrong chapter, bub.

Doesn't change my point. She has a solid 20% chance to live.

25% of the time...

...you reset and get the very high chance of winning.

?

Is 75% real hit that unreliable that you can't do anything with it?

Again, I'm not sure how you're using the word "easy" such that it has any meaning in this context. In the event that you lost track, we were comparing Marcia vs. Oscar's performances in the chapters. There are only a few units that can get the C20 Rescue staff on turn 2. A well trained Oscar is one of them. So he can be very valuable in this chapter despite not being involved in the chapter clear.

He's not integral to a clear and it's a minor thing -- any well built mounted unit or unit in general can get you the Rescue staff by Turn 2. Any powerful physical unit can too. But the fact is that Marcia is still contributing far more than Oscar is overall, especially in that chapter. What, the fact that Oscar gets you a Rescue staff as opposed to Marcia being able to kill Shiharam by Turn 2 (or contribute heavily to the kill, you need a Siege tome) is grounds for arguing him over her?

I'm thinking that it's plenty easy to have all of your combat units at least at 20/7 by C22, Soren included, if you train an optimal number of combat units (5-9, most likely). Soren might actually prefer the Bolting because it's easier for him to 2HKO Schaeffer, even if it's 5% less accurate.

Prove it. I barely had anyone outside of Marcia at 20/3 by that point, whereas units like Soren who have very little move and get very little CEXP and I have no incentive to give any BEXP to due to that low move will receive nowhere near enough to hit 20/7. Remember how badly BEXP slows down after 20/1 or 20/2. 20/7 for Soren at that point in the game is unlikely, especially considering how impractical it is to have an army of 20/10 or 20/15 units by endgame.

You seem to be very confused. First of all, a 20/7 Spirit Dust Soren 2HKOs Schaeffer with Meteor with ~85% displayed hit. So, in the median case, Soren has a 91.5% chance of connecting with both hits and killing Schaeffer. In the 8% chance that Soren misses one of those hits, he still has a 25+% chance to kill Schaeffer via Adept or a crit. So his fail rate is close to 6% in the median case.

And then there's a third hit. In any case, the rate is _not_ 100%, and you seem to shit on any strategy that has less than 100% working rate.

Secondly, I emphasized that even if this 1-turn clear were considered unreliable, it is nevertheless not risky. If we miss killing Schaeffer on turn 1 with this strategy, nothing bad happens. No units die and no Bexp is lost. We shrug and kill Schaeffer on turn 2. This is distinctly different from most of the fast clears whose reliability I 'harp on' (harpoon is not the word you're looking for), where failing the early clear usually results in Marcia's death.

In Chapter 12, failing the early clear results in Marcia's death roughly 24% of the time. The other 75% ends in the chapter clear. It's both extremities, but one has almost 3x the chance of happening than the other, so how is it an unreliable clear? It is once again very easy to reset so that it works, either through screwing with Biorhythm or just simply doing it again. It is next to nothing as far as manipulation goes.

Which is the accurate way to measure which unit is more valuable. If you merely want to claim that in a playthrough where you give Marcia 1500 Bexp, the Boots, an Energy Drop, a Dracoshield, and a Seraph Robe, she is better than Tanith in their shared chapters, I would agree. But that does not mean that Marcia is more valuable than Tanith in their shared chapters. If this sounds funny to you, I would be willing to elaborate.

Marcia is definitely more valuable than Tanith in their shared chapters though simply because of the resource dump. Marcia is far more likely to get the resource dump anyway, not that this comparison actually matters in any argument being made because we already agree on Jill > Marcia > Tanith.

You are speaking from a lack of experience and a desire to disbelieve. I'll be sure to make a public log the next time I perform a HM efficiency run with Boots Reyson to demonstrate the early clears he makes possible.

Then fucking do it. If that truly *was* the case, then why is Reyson a whole tier below Marcia? There is no way that a Boots Reyson is *that* much better than a Boots Marcia considering how long this tier list has been argued on efficiency standards, and the amount of people who have played this game.

Strange, I wasn't aware that Soren took more Bexp than other units to level up.

This is irrelevant. A unit who receives very little combat outside of relatively limited Siege tome use does not make good use of BEXP.

You can do whatever the hell you want in C17-3. That's the point. If you want to develop Soren's Thunder rank, you can nearly get it from D to C in this chapter alone. If you work towards it (mostly in C17-3), Soren has no problem reaching C Thunder by C22.

An early rout is more reliable than a late rout, considering it keeps you safe for longer. You love to harp on lack of reliability for things that have a rather large chance of working, but you really hate it when it ends up applying to your own arguments.

I've already enumerated the chapters where Boots Marcia might save one turn over Boots Reyson.

*two, and I've shown this repeatedly.

Would you be so kind as to provide examples? Consistency is a goal of mine.

Every single chapter where you show some argument against some low turn clears because they're not "100%" where you give examples of an extremely heavy resource dumped unit that also has a non-100% chance of clearing the chapter. Said resource dumped unit would not even receive the full resource dump.

What the hell happened to this debate? I'm not even sure what the purpose is. Only like one or two points focus on Marcia vs Oscar, and like one or two points focus on Tormod vs Soren.

[Radiant Dragon]

Strange, I wasn't aware that Soren took more Bexp than other units to level up.

Well, it could be argued that since Soren can't get CEXP as easily as other units, he needs more BEXP to keep up level wise with the group, especially if he's going to be 20/07 for Chapter 22.

However, I'd argue that he can use Bolting there instead, since even if we miss the Chapter 16 one, there's another one right there. It's really easy to have Titania or whoever run up, Hand Axe the Sage with it, Canto back, and have our Sage trade for it and attack the boss. Reyson's still free, too. This cuts down on his required level a bit.

[Lord Raven]

Actually, it only cuts down the fact that he doesn't need spirit dust. It's easier for Tormod to get CEXP + he makes better use of two spirit dusts (only competition is Calill, Ilyana and Soren, and if you've raised Tormod who needs Calill, Ilyana, or Soren) by that point. Only needs one Arms Scroll too. In other words, it's still more or less neutral (and still going towards Tormod *because* he's a more worthwhile investment due to movement bonus).

Edited September 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Actually, it only cuts down the fact that he doesn't need spirit dust. It's easier for Tormod to get CEXP + he makes better use of two spirit dusts (only competition is Calill, Ilyana and Soren, and if you've raised Tormod who needs Calill, Ilyana, or Soren) by that point. Only needs one Arms Scroll too. In other words, it's still more or less neutral (and still going towards Tormod *because* he's a more worthwhile investment due to movement bonus).

Huh, I thought Soren could 2HKO at that level without the Spirit Dust. Bolting!Soren needs to be 20/4 with the Spirit Dust to 2HKO, which isn't as bad, although I consider Soren a low-priority candidate for the Spirit Dust due to his 60% Magic growth. If you're not bothering with Calill he's golden, however. I don't think it's worth it to train 2 Sages - 1 and Calill are all you should need.

Fore reference, Calill needs 2 levels on base + Spirit Dust to 2HKO with Bolting, and Tormod needs to be 20/8 + Spirit Dust. While it's obviously easier for Tormod to get CEXP than Soren and Calill, he's not getting that much more in those chapters. Calill's easy to get up there, though.

It should be noted however, that Mage Band use will lower the requirements a level or 2 for Soren and Tormod.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

Mage Band gives him a +2, so it acts like a second spirit dust and saves us around 4 levels. (10% growth for 15 Levels to promotion + another 4-5ish = around a +2).

I was actually arguing that his combat/move gives us a better incentive to give him BEXP than the CEXP being significantly larger for him than Soren/Calill.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Mage Band gives him an entire +2, so it acts like a second spirit dust and saves us around 4 levels.

Good point. I was translating the increase in Magic to the reduction in levels, for some reason.

I was actually arguing that his combat/move gives us a better incentive to give him BEXP than the CEXP being significantly larger for him than Soren/Calill.

This is true, but I was trying to stick only to the facts, and stay out of subjectivity for now.

[Anouleth]

Huh, I thought Soren could 2HKO at that level without the Spirit Dust. Bolting!Soren needs to be 20/4 with the Spirit Dust to 2HKO, which isn't as bad, although I consider Soren a low-priority candidate for the Spirit Dust due to his 60% Magic growth. If you're not bothering with Calill he's golden, however. I don't think it's worth it to train 2 Sages - 1 and Calill are all you should need.

Fore reference, Calill needs 2 levels on base + Spirit Dust to 2HKO with Bolting, and Tormod needs to be 20/8 + Spirit Dust. While it's obviously easier for Tormod to get CEXP than Soren and Calill, he's not getting that much more in those chapters. Calill's easy to get up there, though.

It should be noted however, that Mage Band use will lower the requirements a level or 2 for Soren and Tormod.

Calill does not even need those two levels to 2HKO: Merely a C Tormod is required, and easily possible when you have deployment slots to spare in Chapters 20 and 21. Which also reduces the level Tormod needs to a more palatable 20/6.

[Lord Raven]

Also, Tormod with A Reyson is +3 Atk. Soren doesn't have +3 Atk from supports at that point either, +2 at the very best (I think? I forget how fast Soren/Stefan and Soren/Ike are).

[Anouleth]

Also, Tormod with A Reyson is +3 Atk. Soren doesn't have +3 Atk from supports at that point either, +2 at the very best (I think? I forget how fast Soren/Stefan and Soren/Ike are).

Tormod cannot have A Reyson in Chapter 22, although he gets it at the start of Chapter 23. You're quite right, though, that I missed that one out. That really just improves Tormod's position even further, since he now only needs to be level 19/1 with the Spirit Dust and Mage Band (or more realistically, 16/4). In fact, one could even form a C Devdan, which only requires a single deployment on Devdan's part. The issue remains that Tormod needs C Thunder to wield Bolting, but he has ample time to gain WEXP in Chapter 17-3 (even if he were to only attack once every turn, that's already half of the WEXP that he needs). I guess that there remains the issue of accuracy: a 16/5 Tormod with B Reyson C Calill C Devdan has only 83 display hit on Schaeffer.

Soren can get at most +1 attack from his Ike support. I'm cagey about the possibility of a Stefan support since Stefan will not always be recruited.

[Lord Raven]

It's likely he's better off than 16/5 (sorry about the A support thing, but the A support helps out immensely for Chapter 23 anyway since it allows him to start OHKOing the Archers and Snipers on the ballista allowing Reyson and fliers to advance more safely).

On top of Stefan's iffy recruitment he also *may* have an iffy deployment situation too. Devdan's sort of hard to recruit too, in Soren's defense, but 83% isn't completely unreliable. He has at the very worst a 12% chance of failure. This is by rounding down his true hit (94.30 something to 94) and rounding down his success rate from that rounded down true hit (88.36 to 88) on top of taking into account a 16/5 Tormod.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Kaoz]

Soren can get at most +1 attack from his Ike support. I'm cagey about the possibility of a Stefan support since Stefan will not always be recruited.

Actually I believe we are to assume that he is...

Eh this is one of those tier list rule things, in that usually all characters are assumed to be recruited (I should perhaps state this in the OP, though most PoR recruitments are fairly easy so it's not an issue). I might assume not recruited if it's some crap unit like Wallace, but assuming we're not recruiting the best units on some runthroughs seems odd. I might change this policy if people would prefer we not have both recruited most of the time.

Stefan isn't Marcia or Jill, but certainly not crap either.