FE9 Tier list v3

[Lord Raven]

Marcia's flying utility doesn't last that long in comparison to Jill really, and one could argue that after we recruit Jill we don't *need* Marcia either. If Jill didn't exist, Marcia would probably be in Top tier, but they both cut into each other's flying niche.

That *assumes* Jill is recruited, because Marcia can easily get low turncounts in Jill's chapters before Jill even arrives. The fact is that they're both fliers and they can skip terrain *extremely* easily and get to places much faster. The fact that there's two of them only makes it much, much better and not any worse. Of course, I'm not arguing Marcia > Jill by any stretch of the imagination, since Jill's offense and durability actually beat Marcia's enough to make up for not really existing earlier, but this argument definitely should not be very strong for Marcia.

"Punishing" units for taking a slot and taking resources are a bit different. What if on our efficient playthrough, we're using Muarim or Mordecai? Then we have a problem with Ulki in the last slot, because he's spending most maps untransformed (or we have another untransformed laguz).

What if we're not using those two, then...? We don't have much of a problem with Ulki and his other problems shine anyway. His 5~6 turns he needs to transform are indeed a point against him but his (mediocre) performance with Demi Band should still be judged.

Oscar is saving some turns though (C1, C2, and C6? at the very least I think). We can complete chapters like C11 without Marcia too, it's only a one turn difference. Though considering the huge differences she makes in chapters like C12 and C15 I could see her ahead.

Also contributes to 17-4 if you didn't recruit Jill (if you did then either of them can take Oliver out quite easily with a couple Shoves).

Not sure where you're going with Boyd there, unless you're implying Boyd's earlygame is much better than Oscar's. Kieran only joins a chapter after Marcia does.

I meant that if Marcia has significant advantage over Oscar after she joins but Oscar's earlygame is hyped up enough to get him over Marcia (and not Jill), then there's no reason the same thing should apply to Boyd/Kieran. Kieran's got significant advantages over Boyd too, but Kieran isn't around (he's around almost as often as Mia whereas Boyd is around as often as Oscar). I'm not implying Boyd > Oscar in any way, but I'm saying that if Oscar > Marcia makes sense then so should Boyd > Kieran.

I disagree, mainly because the fliers end up sharing the benefits flier utility has to offer. We can replicate Marcia's performance with Jill once we shows up, then everything C18 and beyond is shared with Tanith (Haar joins in eventually too). No one can do what Titania does earlygame and like we see with Oscar, she's on equal footing in at least some of the midgame/lategame chapters.

That is assuming we recruit Jill. That's a big if in some efficiency playthroughs, because while Jill saves turns I don't think it's enough to make up for the fact that she arrives on Turn 4 in the port chapter (C11?) and then on like Turn 4 again in the ship chapter. Not saying this is against Jill, but it proves that Jill isn't necessary and that Marcia isn't always sharing the flying utility.

I don't think Ike is significantly better for 1 and 2, sure his chances of doubling are better but he's not going to have enough Atk to ORKO most enemy types. Boyd's probably not ORKOing either (unless he gets lucky with Str/Spd), but any combination of Ike/Oscar/Boyd should KO enemy types so it's not much of a difference. Ike doesn't do anything to help clear C4 and I'm not sure he does much except talk to Marcia in C3.

Boyd takes overall more damage than Ike and Ike can evade much more often than Boyd, on top of Boyd not really existing in C3&4. In C3 he clears out a bunch of scrap Brigands (I also might be thinking of my Maniac Mode playthrough where Titania almost got killed in C2/3/4 and Ike was actually like 60% as useful as Titania because him and Oscar have the best durability in early-game maps). But aside from that, Ike and Boyd are generally tied, Boyd probably getting a small lead every single chapter, until Ike promotes which lessens the gap a little bit. From there, Boyd and Ike are neck-in-neck (Ike wins in durability, Boyd wins in Offense) with Boyd still having a slight advantage due to his offense and range... I'm not saying Ike > Boyd but that Boyd and Ike shouldn't be in different tiers.

It's difficult not to justify the C2 Speedwing on Boyd, since he's pretty clearly the best candidate for it. And while Ike does double more, Boyd has more Mt- which allows him to ORKO more things when he doubles.

How long until he actually doubles, though? He can't use the C2 Speedwing until C5, for reference... he has 3 base AS right? 6 Spd/7 Str... so by C5 he has like 9 Str/9 Spd? He still has durability problems because he still doesn't dodge as often as Ike does (iirc?) but his offense is still better.

Boyd's durability isn't a problem in most cases and he gains some through supports anyway (his Atk lead also increases).I don't think Ike significantly wins the first third, though I'll concede the last two chapters. 1-2 range is a pretty big advantage in Boyd's favor, considering he can get enough Atk to ORKO from this range. It's roughly 1/3 (depends on map) of enemies Boyd can kill on the Enemy Phase that Ike really can't do anything about.

I'm wondering how often Boyd can actually kill with 1~2 range especially as we approach late game? You can't really have infinite forges... You're right though, Ike actually doesn't significantly win any portion except the last bits, but he's not significantly at a loss either.

Stefan was moved above Mia actually (due to the Str difference really).

Erm... except Mia exists for much longer and they still are pretty much the same unit (except Mia can dodge). Mia can get a forge and screw around quite a lot, and she can build supports. She beats Stefan during the late-game, exists for half of the mid-game and she's never really a hindrance to your team.

The Mia>Soren arguments weren't very convincing (his Spd issues seemed less problematic than her Atk issues).

I don't think she has as many Atk issues as you're saying. Interceptor's argument actually worked quite well in her favor.

Tormod's strength isn't much of an advantage really, Soren's Spd is generally higher and forges can be used to make tome weight a non-issue. Celerity is an advantage, though since Tormod lacks Canto and durability I'm not sure it's enough to overcome Soren's availability lead.

Soren's speed is like 1 or 2 points higher, and Tormod's magic is generally 1 or 2 points lower. Tormod can use stronger tomes more easily due to his strength which closes the speed gap, and if Soren wants to start using El- tomes then the speed gap increases -- in Tormod's favor.

Well, somebody's itching to make a lot of changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYZikQkb_jg

Jill has better offense and much better defense during the entirety of their shared existance. The only thing going for Marcia is higher Speed, which gives her an easier time doubling Muarim and Homasa in chapters 15 and 19. Marcia's only notable contribution before Jill joins is the potential to help 2-turn Chapter 12 - but only if we're willing to drop over 1000 Bexp into her, don't want to recruit Jill, and don't care about missing the recruitment Ravens' loot. 3-turning Chapter 11 (which is what I assume you meant to say) is actually not possible in Hard Mode (well, it requires Titania critting with a Hand Axe against the Knight on the Arrive square). Even if it were, it would require Titania, Lethe, and Mordecai's help; in excess of 1500 Bexp; and some luck with Marcia dodging. Plus it forfeits our opportunity to recruit Jill and only saves one turn over more conventional strategies.

Yes and her potential to help everywhere else if you do not recruit Jill. If you 2-turn 12, you don't recruit Jill at all.

Jill's recruitment costs are irrelevant when tiering Jill. I suggest you put it out of your mind.

I'm not saying it's irrelevant to tiering Jill -- I don't think I was arguing Marcia > Jill -- but I was saying that Jill isn't always recruited in every efficiency playthrough so Marcia isn't always sharing her flier utility with Jill.

And Oscar is a better combat unit.

I didn't know.

The 3-turn clear is not realistic in Hard Mode (it requires an unavailable Hand Axe forge OR a Hand Axe crit).

Mordecai can smite Titania into place and let her use a Hammer.

If she takes at least 1000 Bexp and you don't mind forfeitting Jill and some stat boosters. But yes, this can be a big contribution from Marcia.

I'm sure I'm not alone in freely forfeiting resources to fliers.

Eh, Marcia has an easier time doubling Muarim, so I might give the nod to her. Jill can tank and finish off Muarim on enemy phase, but then you risk some other laguz dying.

I think Muarim attacks first, but Muarim has a shitload of HP that I don't think Jill can even do that.

Except Marcia is the worst combat and Oscar requires the fewest resources to be promoted here.

Eh.

Jill is better in 17-4 due to her superior combat and durability.

No... Marcia has at least a 4 point resistance lead over Jill. At least. That's only base stats; that doesn't account for how Marcia will be at a higher level either. Marcia therefore can take Nosferatu hits much better than Jill. Jill also cannot be shoved nearly as easily as Marcia can in 17-4...

Marcia has the easiest time doubling Homasa of the three, but may need the Full Guard to avoid Ballista death.

They both actually get horseraped without the Full Guard.

But those Wyvern Lords are tough to ORKO and really pack a punch. Jill has the advantage over Marcia.

I'm not arguing Marcia > Jill.

Having 2-3 fliers to ferry definitely helps.

Indeed.

Indeed.

Indeed.

Except that Jill has enough durability to tank a Ballista hit or two, unlike Marcia. But this chapter can still be 4-turned without any fliers, so Oscar is far from worthless.

I never said Oscar was worthless, but in this case he is definitely better than both fliers.

You are mistaken. There is no terrain that impedes a Paladin from reaching the Arrive square (and only one chokepoint, which can be cleared on turn 1 with Reyson's help). In fact, the prevalance of Ballistae may encourage you to use a durable Paladin to solo this chapter. A Paladin like Oscar, perhaps.

Then... Jill/Marcia (either with Full Guard) are useless?

Oscar can kill a couple enemies at the base of the chapter, but is otherwise quite worthless. Jill blows Marcia away here by actually being able to tank at the top of the mountain and ORKO the tougher enemies (Tigers).

Ok, but Marcia still has her uses in flier utility. Jill is better than Marcia but Marcia's still able to fly.

Naturally, except Marcia is the inferior combat unit.

So instead of repeating points I'd like to bring up that I'm interested in buying Resonance of Fate. Hopefully that will bring life to this "Marcia is the inferior combat unit" argument that I might've accidentally contradicted (I go on a lot of rants, so I tend to contradict myself pretty easily) but generally agree with and I hopefully didn't bring up.

Jill has a much better chance of surviving the laguz than Marcia, but may need to worry about the Sleep Bishop. Also, this chapter can be more reliably 3-turned without any fliers, so Oscar isn't completely worthless.

I mean Marcia only needs to take around 3 hits anyway, and she can dodge a couple of them pretty reliably. On top of the fact that you may need two fliers to do a 3-turn that I'm suggesting anyway.

Oscar is a better combat unit than Marcia, so he's better in every chapter that doesn't require flier utility. Marcia requires significantly more Bexp to be valuable: this cannot be ignored. Oscar has additional utility in chapters 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 where he is generally the second or third best unit, can save some turns even assuming optimal deployment, and is hugely helpful if Titania is not used. Oscar > Marcia.

Jill needs almost as much as Marcia to match Oscar, probably even more because she comes much later. Marcia provides low turns for the chapters she has over Jill and her/Jill can tagteam when we have two fliers. This is shown by the fact that Jill/Marcia can double team on Muarim (and worst case scenario one of them can ferry Lethe over to Stefan's square) or the fact that you can Take/Drop Ike whenever you want to arrive on a Seize square for both. Also, Marcia can help a lot using Jill's BEXP if Jill ends up not being recruited, therefore Marcia maintains a stronger lead over Oscar. It would help or hurt my argument if the tier list were more defined as to what we do in terms of recruiting Jill.

Of course, my entire point is that Marcia can do her job without Jill and vice-versa, because both of them actually hinder turn counts through their recruitment anyway but save them in the long run. I'm not saying that difficulty of recruitment should be a factor, but the fact that it does happen (unlike Titania not being used -- what was that suggestion all about?) and I've seen it happen in the few efficiency runs people have done of this game.

[aku chi]

I'm assuming that whichever non-Jill flier we're using to combat ballistae obviously has the Full Guard, whether it's Marcia or Tanith or a Hawk. We're shooting ourselves in the foot otherwise. Obviously this is a point against Marcia in a Jill vs. Marcia argument, but Oscar's not going to be flying anytime soon.

If it takes Marcia a valuable resource to be better than Oscar, that is relevant when comparing Marcia and Oscar's net value. If Marcia wasn't used, the Full Guard could be used by Tanith instead.

We're not rescue-dropping in Chapter 25 (Marcia, Jill and Tanith are more than capable of handling the top themselves)

And if we're not training all three of them? Regardless, Marcia and Tanith can't expose themselves to as many enemies in this chapter as Jill and Haar can.

and in Chapter 28 I feel it's best to use Rescue on our flier after Ike is dropped, otherwise enemies not killed by them will only impede Ike's path to the Seize.

Then who's going to kill the boss for a 2-turn clear? If we're ceding a 2-turn clear, then you don't even need ferry Ike over the trees for a 3-turn clear, so Oscar is at least as valuable. (A 3-turn clear can be accomplished with no fliers with transformed Reyson.)

So far all you've done is make arguments for why Jill > Marcia, not why Oscar > Marcia. Oscar will never be able to drop Ike over the trees in Chapter 28.

Jill, Tanith, and Haar exist and may be used. If Marcia can't do anything better than them in their shared availability, that is a strike against her. If she is actually worse than them in relevant ways, that is even worse. Marcia's flier utility post C12 isn't irrelevant, but it also isn't unique or even of the best variety.

We're not giving Marcia enough BEXP to dominate Chapter 12, since it prevents us from recruiting Jill.

We should consider both runs that recruit Jill and runs that forgo that recruitment.

Marcia getting enough EXP (through BEXP and CEXP) to promote in the Chapter 15 base however, is a pretty small cost, especially considering how she puts the BEXP to the best use here, along with Jill.

So, 30% of our total Bexp that could otherwise be given to Jill, Astrid, Nephenee, Makalov, Tormod, Kieran, etc... is a pretty small cost?

Titania is used. While there is obviously more than one way to do an efficient playthrough, not using Titania is not one of them.

So, draft runs that prohibit Titania can't be considered efficient?

If Marcia can save more turns throughout the entire game than Oscar can, shouldn't she be higher than him? His slight combat leads aren't saving us any turns she can't, while her flight is definitely saving turns he can't.

Not necessarily:

- How unique are her contributions to LTC strategies? They are very unique in C12, pretty unique in C15, C17-2, and C17-4, and less so beyond that. Oscar's contributions are pretty unique in earlygame and less so in mid and lategame.

- How important are her contributions to the LTC strategies? When she can (nearly) solo a chapter (15 and 17-2 come to mind), that's really impressive. If she's just rescue-dropping, like in C21 and C28, it's less impressive.

- How reliable are the LTC strategies and what do we sacrifice by making them? 2-turning C12 is really cool, but it does deprive us of Jill and some stat boosters. 2-turning C15 is similarly nice, but less so if it relies on the innaccurate Laguz Lance or critting.

- How many resources does she need to make her contributions? A bunch. More than Oscar. This should not be ignored.

[Lord Raven]

I think someone seriously needs to do an efficiency run of this game.

[dondon151]

- How many resources does she need to make her contributions? A bunch. More than Oscar. This should not be ignored.

Giving resources to Marcia has high economic profit despite the opportunity costs, whereas allocating those resources elsewhere will likely have no positive economic profit.

[Radiant Dragon]

If it takes Marcia a valuable resource to be better than Oscar, that is relevant when comparing Marcia and Oscar's net value. If Marcia wasn't used, the Full Guard could be used by Tanith instead.

Fair enough, but we have to determine the cost of Marcia taking the Full Guard. She's one of a select amount of units that need it, is the best out of all of them, and becomes much more useful with it. I'd say it's not that big of a deal she needs the Full Guard.

And if we're not training all three of them? Regardless, Marcia and Tanith can't expose themselves to as many enemies in this chapter as Jill and Haar can.

While it's possible we're not training either Jill or Marcia, it's not very likely either. We can't just assume every single possible scenario when looking at units, because we'd never get anywhere. In 99% of playthroughs that claim to be efficient (that are not drafts, which are irrelevant for this list), Jill and/or Marcia will be used. Also, Tanith and Haar will exist in 100% of playthroughs, since they need no training, so that point is moot.

Even more important, what is Oscar doing in Chapter 25? Nothing.

Then who's going to kill the boss for a 2-turn clear? If we're ceding a 2-turn clear, then you don't even need ferry Ike over the trees for a 3-turn clear, so Oscar is at least as valuable. (A 3-turn clear can be accomplished with no fliers with transformed Reyson.)

I wasn't aware this chapter could be completed in 2 turns, or 3 turns with a Paladin and Reyson. Nonetheless, the point stands that Marcia saves more turns than Oscar.

Jill, Tanith, and Haar exist and may be used. If Marcia can't do anything better than them in their shared availability, that is a strike against her. If she is actually worse than them in relevant ways, that is even worse. Marcia's flier utility post C12 isn't irrelevant, but it also isn't unique or even of the best variety.

Titania, Kieran, Astrid and Makalov exist and may be used (will be used, in Titania's case). If Oscar can't do anything better than them in their shared availability, that is a strike against him. If he is actually worse than them in relevant ways, that is even worse. Oscar's Paladin utility post C10 isn't irrelevant, but it also isn't unique or even of the best variety.

Oscar will always play second fiddle to Titania (until really late game), and will always play second fiddle to Kieran as well once he joins. Marcia is not worse than Tanith or Haar. Haar may have more HP and Defense, but she can ORKO more enemies without Brave weaponry (Haar kinda sucks at 2-range combat, due to his low Speed). You can't just say 'Marcia isn't the best flier' and expect me to think that suddenly makes Oscar better than her.

We should consider both runs that recruit Jill and runs that forgo that recruitment.

I personally believe losing out on Jill and Haar is not worth saving some turns in Chapter 11 and 12. If you do want to go that route however, this means Marcia is without a doubt the best flier in that playthrough, and the only one we have until Chapter 18. So now Marcia becomes that much more important and unique, which only strengthens her case against Oscar.

As for the BEXP needed for Marcia to 2 turn Chapter 12, if you want to argue that that's necessary, then suddenly the cost of giving her that BEXP doesn't matter. She is the only unit that can do it. What is Oscar doing to match that?

So, 30% of our total Bexp that could otherwise be given to Jill, Astrid, Nephenee, Makalov, Tormod, Kieran, etc... is a pretty small cost?

Notice how I said "BEXP and CEXP". She needs a couple levels so she can get kills for herself, but after that she's golden. Also, Ravens give lots of EXP (not to mention she's the best unit to take care of them, since Jill can't double them), so getting her the last few levels she needs in the Chapter 15 base is pretty cheap and easy.

I'll admit that Oscar doesn't need as much BEXP as Marcia does, but the cost of using BEXP in this game is practically nil, even moreso when you use it as well as Marcia and Jill do, so please stop treating it like it's a huge deal.

So, draft runs that prohibit Titania can't be considered efficient?

Is this a draft Tier List? This Tier List looks at efficient playthroughs that don't limit our unit choices, so draft runs aren't very relevant.

If she's just rescue-dropping, like in C21 and C28, it's less impressive.

Oscar can't do it, so it's a point in her favor.

2-turning C12 is really cool, but it does deprive us of Jill and some stat boosters.

Which is why I don't assume we're doing that. However, if we do decide to go that route for some reason, Marcia becomes that much more valuable, because she's the only unit that can do it.

- How many resources does she need to make her contributions? A bunch. More than Oscar. This should not be ignored.

What does she do with those resources (that aren't as massive as you make them seem)? More than Oscar. This should not be ignored.

[-Cynthia-]

I meant that if Marcia has significant advantage over Oscar after she joins but Oscar's earlygame is hyped up enough to get him over Marcia (and not Jill), then there's no reason the same thing should apply to Boyd/Kieran. Kieran's got significant advantages over Boyd too, but Kieran isn't around (he's around almost as often as Mia whereas Boyd is around as often as Oscar). I'm not implying Boyd > Oscar in any way, but I'm saying that if Oscar > Marcia makes sense then so should Boyd > Kieran.

Marcia vs. Oscar is flier vs. non-flier, whereas Kieran vs. Boyd is mounted vs. unmounted (a larger lead I think). Still I'm considering Marcia>Oscar (Titania will be used in like 99.9 % of efficient playthroughs anyway, lack of Titania isn't a very valid argument IMO).

Boyd takes overall more damage than Ike and Ike can evade much more often than Boyd, on top of Boyd not really existing in C3&4. In C3 he clears out a bunch of scrap Brigands (I also might be thinking of my Maniac Mode playthrough where Titania almost got killed in C2/3/4 and Ike was actually like 60% as useful as Titania because him and Oscar have the best durability in early-game maps). But aside from that, Ike and Boyd are generally tied, Boyd probably getting a small lead every single chapter, until Ike promotes which lessens the gap a little bit. From there, Boyd and Ike are neck-in-neck (Ike wins in durability, Boyd wins in Offense) with Boyd still having a slight advantage due to his offense and range... I'm not saying Ike > Boyd but that Boyd and Ike shouldn't be in different tiers.

Personal experience here, but I've never had Titania almost dying in 2/3/4. I suppose I could see Boyd dropping down a tier though, past earlygame he's sort of unremarkable by virtue of being an unmounted unit. ORKOing at 1-2 range is pretty cool though.

I'm wondering how often Boyd can actually kill with 1~2 range especially as we approach late game? You can't really have infinite forges... You're right though, Ike actually doesn't significantly win any portion except the last bits, but he's not significantly at a loss either.

We don't have unlimited forges true, but even with normal Hand Axes Boyd can ORKO a lot of enemy types given high Str+ support bonuses.

Erm... except Mia exists for much longer and they still are pretty much the same unit (except Mia can dodge). Mia can get a forge and screw around quite a lot, and she can build supports. She beats Stefan during the late-game, exists for half of the mid-game and she's never really a hindrance to your team.

Mia's support options aren't very good. B Ilyana is probably doable, but Rhys is pretty much garbage outside of earlygame- fielding him and trying to keep him in range of her seems inefficient. An Ilyana support still cuts Stefan's Str lead to about 4, which Mia never catches up in (Stefan can also support Mordecai and/or Soren for more Atk himself). The Str lead makes Stefan>Mia for their entire shared existence. She does exist before he does, but she also takes quite a bit of BEXP and doesn't shave that many turns, so eh.

I don't think she has as many Atk issues as you're saying. Interceptor's argument actually worked quite well in her favor.

There was an argument a few pages back about Mia's lack of ORKOing in C17 I found fair, even with a forge her ORKOing is shaky. If people dislike seeing Soren in between the mages so much I'd be more inclined to Soren>Zihark than Mia>Soren.

Soren's speed is like 1 or 2 points higher, and Tormod's magic is generally 1 or 2 points lower. Tormod can use stronger tomes more easily due to his strength which closes the speed gap, and if Soren wants to start using El- tomes then the speed gap increases -- in Tormod's favor.

Depends on their respective levels I guess, though you kind of dodged my point about forges there (which would give Soren a Spd and Mag lead and is generally the most efficient weapon option for both Soren and Tormod).

Unsure if the list assumes all characters recruited or not and whether this means Marcia can have unlimited flier access until C18 under some circumstances (though probably a minority of efficient playthroughs in any case as Radiant Kitty pointed out).

[Lord Raven]

Marcia vs. Oscar is flier vs. non-flier, whereas Kieran vs. Boyd is mounted vs. unmounted (a larger lead I think). Still I'm considering Marcia>Oscar (Titania will be used in like 99.9 % of efficient playthroughs anyway, lack of Titania isn't a very valid argument IMO).

Marcia > Oscar is what I've been sorta trying to argue...

Personal experience here, but I've never had Titania almost dying in 2/3/4. I suppose I could see Boyd dropping down a tier though, past earlygame he's sort of unremarkable by virtue of being an unmounted unit. ORKOing at 1-2 range is pretty cool though.

I said Maniac mode hahaha (I may have been arguing the first couple chapters with MM in mind, by the way, if I had been arguing them at all, but Ike takes 50% hitrates early on whereas Boyd takes like 80% in MM so the numbers are lower for HM)... C2 Titania had like 16 HP left, in C3 Titania actually had to retreat from the boss because she had 6 HP left. But yeah, Boyd being bumped down to the top of High isn't a bad idea.

We don't have unlimited forges true, but even with normal Hand Axes Boyd can ORKO a lot of enemy types given high Str+ support bonuses.

I actually am legitimately curious about the numbers.

Mia's support options aren't very good. B Ilyana is probably doable, but Rhys is pretty much garbage outside of earlygame- fielding him and trying to keep him in range of her seems inefficient. An Ilyana support still cuts Stefan's Str lead to about 4, which Mia never catches up in (Stefan can also support Mordecai and/or Soren for more Atk himself). The Str lead makes Stefan>Mia for their entire shared existence. She does exist before he does, but she also takes quite a bit of BEXP and doesn't shave that many turns, so eh.

She isn't a hindrance either. Neither is Stefan, but if Zihark > Mia then Stefan should be better than both. If Zihark > Stefan then Mia > Zihark would make a lot more sense.

There was an argument a few pages back about Mia's lack of ORKOing in C17 I found fair, even with a forge her ORKOing is shaky. If people dislike seeing Soren in between the mages so much I'd be more inclined to Soren>Zihark than Mia>Soren.

I'm still for Tormod being above Soren regardless of what happens.

Depends on their respective levels I guess, though you kind of dodged my point about forges there (which would give Soren a Spd and Mag lead and is generally the most efficient weapon option for both Soren and Tormod).

I think we should outline who is getting what forges in each chapter, because Soren still only has 40 uses of a forge to solve that problem. We only have 1 forge/chapter after all, and people who can survive in the frontlines and do 1~2 range with a Javelin/Hand Axe should take priority over Soren and Tormod. If Tormod gets BEXP his post-chapter 18 utility is far greater than Soren's, especially because he makes a decent secondary healer with a Heal staff alongside Mist.

Unsure if the list assumes all characters recruited or not and whether this means Marcia can have unlimited flier access until C18 under some circumstances (though probably a minority of efficient playthroughs in any case as Radiant Kitty pointed out).

I was reading the one efficiency log posted in the board -- it ends on C18 -- and that didn't recruit Jill and didn't really have any trouble with low turns at all. Though, Marcia's stats were RNG abused quite a bit (18 str at 20/1 or something, 21 str at 20/3 due to an energy drop) but Laguz Lance is how they ended up killing Muarim. Considering Marcia's level and spd lead over Jill, the Laguz Lance makes an easy ORKO (his Marcia did around 33x2 which is overkill) Edited August 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

If people dislike seeing Soren in between the mages so much I'd be more inclined to Soren>Zihark than Mia>Soren.

I'd disagree. Soren is not so much better than Tormod (or visa-versa) that they shouldn't be right next to each other.

I said Maniac mode hahaha (I may have been arguing the first couple chapters with MM in mind, by the way, if I had been arguing them at all, but Ike takes 50% hitrates early on whereas Boyd takes like 80% in MM so the numbers are lower for HM)... C2 Titania had like 16 HP left, in C3 Titania actually had to retreat from the boss because she had 6 HP left. But yeah, Boyd being bumped down to the top of High isn't a bad idea.

I would like to see a Maniac mode Tier List. I wonder what, if any changes would be made?

She isn't a hindrance either. Neither is Stefan, but if Zihark > Mia then Stefan should be better than both. If Zihark > Stefan then Mia > Zihark would make a lot more sense.

I'd go with Zihark > Mia, for his better Strength and Defense, despite a small availability disadvantage. Stefan I'm not so sure of, but I agree that he should either be above them both, or below them both, not between.

I'm not a big fan of assuming supports, since they tend to be hard to set up in most situations. Especially in Swordmaster's cases, since all of their best options have differing move types.

I'm still for Tormod being above Soren regardless of what happens.

It's availability and a Magic lead vs. more Move and an AS lead without forged weapons. It's tough to judge, but I personally don't think the Mages are worth using forges on, since they're pretty expensive and the Mages tend to 2HKO most enemies with just Elthunder. The move lead is pretty important too, when all of our best units are mounted.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Anouleth]

I don't think forging tomes is really worthwhile for the mages (as opposed to a forge for a REAL combat unit), but you get a lot of forging opportunities and you might have a free spot for a Thunder.

[-Cynthia-]

She isn't a hindrance either. Neither is Stefan, but if Zihark > Mia then Stefan should be better than both. If Zihark > Stefan then Mia > Zihark would make a lot more sense.

Why? Zihark has Adept, has higher Str than Mia (though less than Stefan), and has the best durability with supports. It's not purely an availability contest here.

I think we should outline who is getting what forges in each chapter, because Soren still only has 40 uses of a forge to solve that problem. We only have 1 forge/chapter after all, and people who can survive in the frontlines and do 1~2 range with a Javelin/Hand Axe should take priority over Soren and Tormod. If Tormod gets BEXP his post-chapter 18 utility is far greater than Soren's, especially because he makes a decent secondary healer with a Heal staff alongside Mist.

Such a list would depend on who we're using which has some variance.

Soren doesn't have to compete with 1-2 range forges because we can forge tomes before we can forge javelins/hand axes (we can give him a forge while only irons are involved). Also considering the amount of money we get in this game, a tome forge isn't a big deal, thunder's not very expensive (light tomes are kinda iffy though).

Soren can take a Seal and be a secondary healer several chapters before Tormod exists (and also has more time to build staff rank then).

Edited August 17, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

I didn't know.

Now you do.

Mordecai can smite Titania into place and let her use a Hammer.

I believe Mordecai needs to smite Marcia. Plus, Titania can't handily clear the path without a forged Hand Axe. A 3-turn clear of Chapter 11 on HM is not practicable.

I'm sure I'm not alone in freely forfeiting resources to fliers.

Then you're not alone in failing to properly evaluate the fliers' net value.

No... Marcia has at least a 4 point resistance lead over Jill. At least. That's only base stats; that doesn't account for how Marcia will be at a higher level either. Marcia therefore can take Nosferatu hits much better than Jill. Jill also cannot be shoved nearly as easily as Marcia can in 17-4...

That's a point. Jill can still solo 17-4 with a smite from Mordecai, I believe.

Then... Jill/Marcia (either with Full Guard) are useless?

Of course not. Jill with the Full Guard can probably solo C24. Marcia probably doesn't have the durability to do so safely, but she can rescue-drop somebody to the south to visit that house, which is worth something. But Oscar is more valuable than Marcia in C24.

I mean Marcia only needs to take around 3 hits anyway, and she can dodge a couple of them pretty reliably. On top of the fact that you may need two fliers to do a 3-turn that I'm suggesting anyway.

*shrug*, Oscar can be involved prominently in a no-flier 3-turn clear strategy of C28 that involves transformed Reyson. So if Marcia can't get us a 2-turn clear or an easier 3-turn clear, it's not a win for Marcia.

Jill needs almost as much as Marcia to match Oscar, probably even more because she comes much later. Marcia provides low turns for the chapters she has over Jill and her/Jill can tagteam when we have two fliers. This is shown by the fact that Jill/Marcia can double team on Muarim (and worst case scenario one of them can ferry Lethe over to Stefan's square) or the fact that you can Take/Drop Ike whenever you want to arrive on a Seize square for both. Also, Marcia can help a lot using Jill's BEXP if Jill ends up not being recruited, therefore Marcia maintains a stronger lead over Oscar. It would help or hurt my argument if the tier list were more defined as to what we do in terms of recruiting Jill.

Is the jist of this: Why, if Jill > Oscar, is not Marcia > Oscar? Jill does need almost as many resources as Marcia to get to ORKOing. Marcia has C12 all to herself. But Jill is the better unit in almost all of their shared chapters. Oscar has notable combat advantages over Marcia (mostly durability), not so much with Jill. So while Jill is at least as good as Oscar in their shared chapters, Marcia has some chapters where she loses slightly to Oscar.

Of course, my entire point is that Marcia can do her job without Jill and vice-versa, because both of them actually hinder turn counts through their recruitment anyway but save them in the long run. I'm not saying that difficulty of recruitment should be a factor, but the fact that it does happen (unlike Titania not being used -- what was that suggestion all about?) and I've seen it happen in the few efficiency runs people have done of this game.

I agree that we should consider playthroughs with Marcia and Jill recruited and trained, playthroughs with just Marcia trained, playthroughs with just Jill trained, and even playthroughs where neither is trained. That better captures the totality of possibilities.

Giving resources to Marcia has high economic profit despite the opportunity costs, whereas allocating those resources elsewhere will likely have no positive economic profit.

The opportunity costs: they must be taken into account. It's not easy to conceptually factor in such opportunity costs, so I apologize if I'm over-zealous about reminding people. When comparing Oscar and Marcia's net values, we cannot simply compare the utility they provide with their optimal resource bundles. Any resources Marcia takes in excess of Oscar must result in a penalty to her equal to the opportunity cost of those resources. Consider the value of the extra ~600 Bexp Marcia takes going to Jill or Astrid. Consider the Full Guard being used by Tanith. The value those units get from them is equal to the cost attributed to Marcia taking them.

Fair enough, but we have to determine the cost of Marcia taking the Full Guard. She's one of a select amount of units that need it, is the best out of all of them, and becomes much more useful with it. I'd say it's not that big of a deal she needs the Full Guard.

Tanith is arguably better in their shared chapters.

While it's possible we're not training either Jill or Marcia, it's not very likely either. We can't just assume every single possible scenario when looking at units, because we'd never get anywhere. In 99% of playthroughs that claim to be efficient (that are not drafts, which are irrelevant for this list), Jill and/or Marcia will be used. Also, Tanith and Haar will exist in 100% of playthroughs, since they need no training, so that point is moot.

Why not? Why restrict the scope of this tier list to only certain playthroughs with certain units? And Haar's recruitment isn't costless, because it requires both Jill's recruitment and Jill hanging back in C23. Not that that is terribly relevant.

I wasn't aware this chapter could be completed in 2 turns, or 3 turns with a Paladin and Reyson. Nonetheless, the point stands that Marcia saves more turns than Oscar.

If Marcia is an important (but replaceable) element in a C28 3-turn strategy and Oscar is an important (but replaceable) element in a C28 3-turn strategy, how is Marcia saving more turns? Jill (and maybe Haar) can participate in a (potentially risky) C28 2-turn clear strategy. I don't believe Marcia can, because her durability is insufficient.

Titania, Kieran, Astrid and Makalov exist and may be used (will be used, in Titania's case). If Oscar can't do anything better than them in their shared availability, that is a strike against him. If he is actually worse than them in relevant ways, that is even worse. Oscar's Paladin utility post C10 isn't irrelevant, but it also isn't unique or even of the best variety.

Oscar will always play second fiddle to Titania (until really late game), and will always play second fiddle to Kieran as well once he joins. Marcia is not worse than Tanith or Haar. Haar may have more HP and Defense, but she can ORKO more enemies without Brave weaponry (Haar kinda sucks at 2-range combat, due to his low Speed). You can't just say 'Marcia isn't the best flier' and expect me to think that suddenly makes Oscar better than her.

Point taken. Oscar's competition is at least as noteworthy as Marcia's competition. But Oscar can quickly match Titania's utility and always has advantages over Kieran.

As for the BEXP needed for Marcia to 2 turn Chapter 12, if you want to argue that that's necessary, then suddenly the cost of giving her that BEXP doesn't matter. She is the only unit that can do it.

Excuse me? Costs always matter.

otice how I said "BEXP and CEXP". She needs a couple levels so she can get kills for herself, but after that she's golden. Also, Ravens give lots of EXP (not to mention she's the best unit to take care of them, since Jill can't double them), so getting her the last few levels she needs in the Chapter 15 base is pretty cheap and easy.

LOL. Marcia needs more than "a couple levels" to be able to "get kills for herself". Go ahead and look at Marcia's base stats again to jog your memory. Using Marcia optimally requires at least 1000 Bexp before C15.

I'll admit that Oscar doesn't need as much BEXP as Marcia does, but the cost of using BEXP in this game is practically nil, even moreso when you use it as well as Marcia and Jill do, so please stop treating it like it's a huge deal.

So long as you (and others) continue to ignore resource costs, I'll continue to mention them.

Is this a draft Tier List? This Tier List looks at efficient playthroughs that don't limit our unit choices, so draft runs aren't very relevant.

If This Tier List doesn't limit our unit choices, then any efficient run with any assortment of units is within its scope.

What does she do with those resources (that aren't as massive as you make them seem)? More than Oscar. This should not be ignored.

Ignoring what Marcia can do with a bunch of resources is not a concern. Everybody (myself included) has been assuming that Marcia gets what she needs to kick butt, precisely because she makes great use of resources. But we musn't ignore the costs associated with those resources. That is a concern of mine.

If people dislike seeing Soren in between the mages so much I'd be more inclined to Soren>Zihark than Mia>Soren.

I agree.

I'm still for Tormod being above Soren regardless of what happens.

This was argued in detail a couple months ago. Bring up some new facts or arguments if you want something to change.

I think we should outline who is getting what forges in each chapter, because Soren still only has 40 uses of a forge to solve that problem.

I think this is a horrible idea, because it requires unit deployment assumptions. I don't mean to be melodramatic, but I have no interest in participating in a PoR tier list with strong unit deployment assumptions. It limits the scope of discussion and trivializes comparisons. It's bad enough on the RD tier list, but at least most units have some free deployment to make low tier debates slightly more than completely useless. But in PoR? You'd have an unused tier with at least half of the cast.

Considering Marcia's level ... lead over Jill ...

What is this level lead you speak of? Jill joins 3 chapters after Marcia 3 levels higher. Give them the same amount of Bexp and they'll be within a level of each other.

[Radiant Dragon]

(light tomes are kinda iffy though).

Light tomes are expensive as all hell. Not so much that we can't afford it later on, but still...

Soren can take a Seal and be a secondary healer several chapters before Tormod exists (and also has more time to build staff rank then).

I personally find the 5000 gold from selling the Seal more valuable than a third healer, even if that healer can equip a weapon. An early promoted Sage's offense is poor enough that we don't want them getting attacked anyway, and if we want a healer with more than 5 move we should Seal Mist.

[Lord Raven]

Why? Zihark has Adept, has higher Str than Mia (though less than Stefan), and has the best durability with supports. It's not purely an availability contest here.

Um Zihark's Adept is only a 12% activation at base. Mia's got Vantage which counts for something; you can give her a bunch of scrolls and she'd end up using them well because Vantage is more guaranteed than Adept to activate. Furthermore, the Str gap doesn't matter as much considering Mia has time to catch up; Interceptor did say he pumped a bunch of BEXP into Mia (Fixed mode) and she kept killing things quite well with 11 str/17 AS and this was before Zihark joined. And he still had enough BEXP to get Rolf to like Level 12 or 13 or promote Oscar/Boyd/do whatever the fuck he wanted even though he pumped a bunch into Mia. I don't think Mia or Zihark have enough differences to warrant any unit going directly in between them.

Such a list would depend on who we're using which has some variance.

Which kinda blows because people say "efficient run" as "the one single most efficient run ever" whereas others say "well, who we are using requires some variance so..." The standards with which we're arguing these tiers, once again, are not concrete enough.

Soren doesn't have to compete with 1-2 range forges because we can forge tomes before we can forge javelins/hand axes (we can give him a forge while only irons are involved). Also considering the amount of money we get in this game, a tome forge isn't a big deal, thunder's not very expensive (light tomes are kinda iffy though).

I'd rather forge a 1-range weapon so that frontliners can easily plow through things. I don't think Soren's move is giving him enough offense to matter.

Soren can take a Seal and be a secondary healer several chapters before Tormod exists (and also has more time to build staff rank then).

A seal I'd much rather use on Mist, anyway. I'm referring to a full promotion at any rate, although if we're gonna do that to Soren I completely forgot that Rhys is an option too...

Now you do.

sarcasm

I believe Mordecai needs to smite Marcia. Plus, Titania can't handily clear the path without a forged Hand Axe. A 3-turn clear of Chapter 11 on HM is not practicable.

I saw the 3-turn strategy just now -- there weren't any hand axes involved. Lethe shoved Marcia (who lured the boss out so he wouldn't get in Titania's way) and Mordecai Smited Titania. On Turn 3, Titania killed the Knight with the Hammer and Marcia Arrived that turn.

That's a point. Jill can still solo 17-4 with a smite from Mordecai, I believe.

Marcia has more insurance because Mordecai can't Smite Jill without transforming. Neither can Muarim. Marcia can be Shoved/Smited by either character, however.

Of course not. Jill with the Full Guard can probably solo C24. Marcia probably doesn't have the durability to do so safely, but she can rescue-drop somebody to the south to visit that house, which is worth something.

Cool, Jill > Marcia.

But Oscar is more valuable than Marcia in C24.

Cool, one chapter.

*shrug*, Oscar can be involved prominently in a no-flier 3-turn clear strategy of C28 that involves transformed Reyson. So if Marcia can't get us a 2-turn clear or an easier 3-turn clear, it's not a win for Marcia.

Marcia/Jill are perfectly capable of an easy 3-turn. In fact, with enough shoving of Reyson (+Laguz Stone) I bet a 2-turn is pretty much feasible for Marcia/Jill, considering their durability isn't shit.

Is the jist of this: Why, if Jill > Oscar, is not Marcia > Oscar?

Yes!!

Jill does need almost as many resources as Marcia to get to ORKOing. Marcia has C12 all to herself. But Jill is the better unit in almost all of their shared chapters.

That is cool. But Jill isn't always recruited, leading to the possibility of Marcia being the only flying unit. I'm not using this as a point against Jill -- I know Jill is better -- but I am showing it's possible to have an efficiency run pulled off successfully with allocating Jill's resources purely to Marcia so she can survive very well.

Oscar has notable combat advantages over Marcia (mostly durability), not so much with Jill. So while Jill is at least as good as Oscar in their shared chapters, Marcia has some chapters where she loses slightly to Oscar.

Yes but Marcia arguably has better utility. This is what I'm arguing. Marcis is merely an inferior Jill, but not inferior enough that she can't overtake Jill; she can take over Jill's role and she doesn't do it as effectively, but Jill's niche is then filled by Tanith. Marcia is more integral in a playthrough than Jill is, in that case.

I agree that we should consider playthroughs with Marcia and Jill recruited and trained, playthroughs with just Marcia trained, playthroughs with just Jill trained, and even playthroughs where neither is trained. That better captures the totality of possibilities.

Playthroughs where Marcia is trained has her at the highest of priorities for buffs and everything because her flying gives her an advantage.

With both Marcia and Jill, each have backup to pull things off easier. Jill is better than Marcia in this case.

Without Marcia, we need to wait a couple turns to clear C12 and 13 easier.

Without either well we gain a bunch of turns.

Why not? Why restrict the scope of this tier list to only certain playthroughs with certain units?

I have absolutely no idea why it's like this. I've been questioning it for a while too, and I'd still keep questioning it if nobody ignored me when I asked that. We don't have enough concreteness (efficiency is NOT concrete, and while we all share a low-turn count opinion it's retarded that people are arguing based on their personal meaning of this) to effectively judge a tier list. I agree, by the way.

This was argued in detail a couple months ago. Bring up some new facts or arguments if you want something to change.

k

First of all, I see your point with Soren > the Myrmidons. In fact, every single argument brought up pointed to Soren > Mia... since Zihark is almost exactly the same unit, Soren > Zihark quite easily. Stefan is an iffy case, and I'm fairly sure he should be below Mia simply because Mia and Zihark exist longer and become more durable much later into the game.

Now, Soren vs Tormod... I looked at your argument for Soren and Tormod and all I see is quality of staff botting. Nothing more. Not mentioning the fact that Tormod has a better chance of keeping up with the people who need to be healed in larger maps (which start around the time Tormod comes in) so Tormod's +2 move advantage over Soren is quite a boon. Especially because Tormod essentially hits an unpromoted mount's movement upon promotion -- this actually places him above regular foot units. This means he can reach units easier with a staff if he ever wants to heal, and he can take out pesky enemies with low Res if not. That's once they come in. Soren may have Adept and better bases, but Tormod has movement in the bag.

I think this is a horrible idea, because it requires unit deployment assumptions. I don't mean to be melodramatic, but I have no interest in participating in a PoR tier list with strong unit deployment assumptions. It limits the scope of discussion and trivializes comparisons. It's bad enough on the RD tier list, but at least most units have some free deployment to make low tier debates slightly more than completely useless. But in PoR? You'd have an unused tier with at least half of the cast.

Yeah, tiering Fire Emblem blows dick.

What is this level lead you speak of? Jill joins 3 chapters after Marcia 3 levels higher. Give them the same amount of Bexp and they'll be within a level of each other.

Marcia can easily be promoted with ~600-700 BEXP to spare by the time Jill comes in.

[-Cynthia-]

Um Zihark's Adept is only a 12% activation at base. Mia's got Vantage which counts for something; you can give her a bunch of scrolls and she'd end up using them well because Vantage is more guaranteed than Adept to activate. Furthermore, the Str gap doesn't matter as much considering Mia has time to catch up; Interceptor did say he pumped a bunch of BEXP into Mia (Fixed mode) and she kept killing things quite well with 11 str/17 AS and this was before Zihark joined. And he still had enough BEXP to get Rolf to like Level 12 or 13 or promote Oscar/Boyd/do whatever the fuck he wanted even though he pumped a bunch into Mia. I don't think Mia or Zihark have enough differences to warrant any unit going directly in between them.

Mia needs to be level 15 to have 11 Str (9 levels), Zihark only needs to be level 12 (2 levels). Mia's 3 chapters before Zihark joins are a defend map and 2 rushes to the boss, all of which contain mostly lance users (meaning that BEXPing Mia doesn't help us clear all that much). Sure it's possible to BEXP Mia so that she has higher stats than Zihark, but using that same BEXP on Zihark gets us a better unit. Vantage isn't bad, but Zihark's durability with supports is more reliable than Mia trying Wrath+Vantage anyway.

Mia's durability lead over Stefan is pretty insignificant.

20/7 Mia (B Ilyana)

35 HP 14 Def 10 Res 41 Avo

--/12 Stefan

41 HP 13 Def 10 Res 33 Avo

20/7 Zihark (B Muarim B Ilyana)

38 HP 16 Def 7 Res 63 Avo

Yeah Mia has Vantage, but that only helps her durability if she A. Crits B.3HKOs and C. Is attacked at one range. Other than that it's pretty much a tie durability wise. Offensively, Stefan's got a 5 Str lead here, which is often the difference between ORKOing and not ORKOing, or possibly not having to use a forge.

[Lord Raven]

this argument i feel addresses much of the Mia v Zihark concerns -- Mia could easily go above Zihark or directly below him, but with no one in between. There isn't much favoritism going on in this argument either because he specifically mentions that a) everyone is on equal level (and overleveled at that) and b) he has 1100 bexp to spare. Zihark's better in raw stats, but Mia's availability lead, regardless of how slight, is if anything a tie breaker. And worst case scenario, Stefan goes above Zihark or below Mia. But there's no way in hell Stefan should be between the two.

[-Cynthia-]

That argument doesn't mention Marcia anywhere, and giving Marcia a lot of BEXP is important to secure ORKOs on Ravens and try to on Muarim. Giving Jill a large amount also helps us clear chapters more effectively. In the end, even though we get a lot of BEXP, Mia being worse with it than Zihark is still relevant.

Though I suppose you may have a point about Stefan vs. Mia/Zihark, even though his Str lead against Zihark applies to a lesser extent it's still there. I'm considering this order for the mage/myrm section of the tier list:

Soren

Tormod

Stefan

Zihark

Mia

Ilyana

Thoughts?

Edited August 17, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

I saw the 3-turn strategy just now -- there weren't any hand axes involved. Lethe shoved Marcia (who lured the boss out so he wouldn't get in Titania's way) and Mordecai Smited Titania. On Turn 3, Titania killed the Knight with the Hammer and Marcia Arrived that turn.

Link please! I was looking at

, which depended heavily on a Hand Axe forge (which is unavailable at this time in HM).

Marcia/Jill are perfectly capable of an easy 3-turn. In fact, with enough shoving of Reyson (+Laguz Stone) I bet a 2-turn is pretty much feasible for Marcia/Jill, considering their durability isn't shit.

Marcia has insufficient durability to reliably 2-turn C28.

That is cool. But Jill isn't always recruited, leading to the possibility of Marcia being the only flying unit. I'm not using this as a point against Jill -- I know Jill is better -- but I am showing it's possible to have an efficiency run pulled off successfully with allocating Jill's resources purely to Marcia so she can survive very well.

Dumping huge amounts of Bexp into Marcia works ... for a while. Then you run into Marcia's 20/20 stats - which just aren't very good on the durability front. Jill's (and Haar's) superior durability is really helpful in chapters 25 and 28 in particular.

Yes but Marcia arguably has better utility. This is what I'm arguing. Marcis is merely an inferior Jill, but not inferior enough that she can't overtake Jill; she can take over Jill's role and she doesn't do it as effectively, but Jill's niche is then filled by Tanith. Marcia is more integral in a playthrough than Jill is, in that case.

I'll a little confused by this. Jill isn't a niche unit. She has the best movement, but also the combat and durability to solo most chapters. Amongst units with her movement, only Haar is as durable, but he doesn't quite have her offense. Tanith and Marcia can almost match Jill's offense, but aren't nearly as durable. There is no perfect replacement for Jill. If you're trained Marcia, Tanith, and Haar, you can probably get by with only 1-2 turns lost in C25 and C28, so she isn't nearly as essential as Titania. I'm not sure where I'm going with this...

Playthroughs where Marcia is trained has her at the highest of priorities for buffs and everything because her flying gives her an advantage.

Which still have opportunity costs, but yes. If we're not training Jill, we're probably 4-turning C11 and 2-turning C12 - which is nice but forfeits Haar and some stat boosters.

With both Marcia and Jill, each have backup to pull things off easier. Jill is better than Marcia in this case.

Yes, but we have to take our time on chapters 9, 11, and 12.

Without Marcia, we need to wait a couple turns to clear C12 and 13 easier.

But can speed through C9 and have the best flier. We also miss out on Makalov. And Marcia isn't particularly valuable in C13.

Without either well we gain a bunch of turns.

Only 1-2 turns on C15, ~4 turns on C17, and maybe 1 turn on C25. But we can speed through C9. We could also save a turn on C11 if we don't care to recruit Haar.

Marcia can easily be promoted with ~600-700 BEXP to spare by the time Jill comes in.

If instead you gave that 1500 Bexp to Jill, Jill would be promoted. It's not a hard concept to grasp. With equal resources, Marcia has no level lead over Jill.

Now, Soren vs Tormod... I looked at your argument for Soren and Tormod and all I see is quality of staff botting. Nothing more. Not mentioning the fact that Tormod has a better chance of keeping up with the people who need to be healed in larger maps (which start around the time Tormod comes in) so Tormod's +2 move advantage over Soren is quite a boon. Especially because Tormod essentially hits an unpromoted mount's movement upon promotion -- this actually places him above regular foot units. This means he can reach units easier with a staff if he ever wants to heal, and he can take out pesky enemies with low Res if not. That's once they come in. Soren may have Adept and better bases, but Tormod has movement in the bag.

You're welcome.

[Lord Raven]

Link please! I was looking at

, which depended heavily on a Hand Axe forge (which is unavailable at this time in HM).

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24530, specifically http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24530&view=findpost&p=1580224

Marcia has insufficient durability to reliably 2-turn C28.

Proof?

Dumping huge amounts of Bexp into Marcia works ... for a while. Then you run into Marcia's 20/20 stats - which just aren't very good on the durability front. Jill's (and Haar's) superior durability is really helpful in chapters 25 and 28 in particular.

~19 Def and ~43 HP isn't bad at all. It's just not as good as other more durable units (ie Ike and the Paladins, Haar/Jill), but it's still enough to survive hits. Can't Marcia support Tanith too? She gets a lot of Evade from that although I don't recall Marcia's affinity (Tanith is def Earth).

I'll a little confused by this. Jill isn't a niche unit. She has the best movement, but also the combat and durability to solo most chapters. Amongst units with her movement, only Haar is as durable, but he doesn't quite have her offense. Tanith and Marcia can almost match Jill's offense, but aren't nearly as durable. There is no perfect replacement for Jill. If you're trained Marcia, Tanith, and Haar, you can probably get by with only 1-2 turns lost in C25 and C28, so she isn't nearly as essential as Titania. I'm not sure where I'm going with this...

I meant err... if Marcia were to take over Jill then Tanith would take over Marcia's role. Basically, if we have Jill&Marcia, if we lose Jill, we have Marcia&Tanith instead (and those two can support each other but that's not entirely relevant).

Which still have opportunity costs, but yes. If we're not training Jill, we're probably 4-turning C11 and 2-turning C12 - which is nice but forfeits Haar and some stat boosters.

What's the problem here? You're forfeiting a lot of things in an efficient playthrough, and even if we lose Haar, what amount of turns is Haar himself saving that Marcia/Tanith can't already save by themselves?

Yes, but we have to take our time on chapters 9, 11, and 12.

We do? We can't "take our time" with efficiency.

But can speed through C9 and have the best flier. We also miss out on Makalov. And Marcia isn't particularly valuable in C13.

Not like Makalov is THAT important anyway, considering we'd have two fliers from C18 onwards.

Only 1-2 turns on C15, ~4 turns on C17, and maybe 1 turn on C25. But we can speed through C9. We could also save a turn on C11 if we don't care to recruit Haar.

And this makes Oscar > Marcia?

If instead you gave that 1500 Bexp to Jill, Jill would be promoted. It's not a hard concept to grasp. With equal resources, Marcia has no level lead over Jill.

So Jill > Marcia. cool.

You're welcome.

Will argue later, I'm in a rush right now cause i'm playing the Catherine demo.

Halfway through I decided to go back to see what we were arguing. I am arguing either Oscar > Jill > Marcia or Jill > Marcia > Oscar. Nothing against Jill with respect to Marcia, Oscar's position is the iffy one.

Furthermore, -Cynthia- that looks good and I'll see what I think of with the Tormod v Soren argument.

[Anouleth]

Light tomes are expensive as all hell. Not so much that we can't afford it later on, but still...

There aren't many ways to run out of money in FE9 but forging Light tomes is one of them. Not to mention that it's useless since Rhys has awful movement, durability and speed even with the shiniest and most expensive forge in the world. If nothing else, it denies us the ability to put +crit on everything

I personally find the 5000 gold from selling the Seal more valuable than a third healer, even if that healer can equip a weapon.

It's more like a second healer, since a 5 move healer is pretty worthless later on in the game.

[aku chi]

http://serenesforest...showtopic=24530, specifically http://serenesforest...dpost&p=1580224

I see. A 3-turn of C11 does appear possible on HM, but far from a guarantee. Gergeshwan relied on some hits missing Titania, Titania's Hammer hits connecting, and no enemies blocking the path on turn 3. You'll also notice that it's basically a Titania solo and requires either Oscar and/or Kieran to clear Titania's path on turn 2. But I'm willing to consider it a possible risky LTC strategy where Marcia can take >1500 Bexp to be slightly more valuable than Oscar. It's still only relevant if we aren't recruiting Jill (otherwise we need to wait until turn 5).

Proof?

It's impossible to prove a negative, but consider this:

Marcia needs to withstand 2 Dragon attacks. They all 2HKO 20/20 Marcia. Even if she dodges one (unlikely), she needs to withstand about 3 Cats, 3 Halberdiers, a Paladin, and a couple Hawks who all deal between 4-10 damage to an 18 Def Marcia. Marcia has been vigored, Tanith's support can't provide any extra avoid for her. It's possible, but unlikely for Marcia to survive all of this. A dracoshield and/or Seraph Robe can help, but they don't remove the risk of death entirely.

~19 Def and ~43 HP isn't bad at all. It's just not as good as other more durable units (ie Ike and the Paladins, Haar/Jill), but it's still enough to survive hits. Can't Marcia support Tanith too? She gets a lot of Evade from that although I don't recall Marcia's affinity (Tanith is def Earth).

Marcia has Fire Affinity, so she only gets 15 Avo from an A Tanith support. But Tanith won't be in support range for a 2-turn clear of C28 that involves Marcia. Tanith's B Support can help a little in C25, but I prefer to split them up to cover more enemies (in particular, I like one to lure and kill Gromell).

I meant err... if Marcia were to take over Jill then Tanith would take over Marcia's role. Basically, if we have Jill&Marcia, if we lose Jill, we have Marcia&Tanith instead (and those two can support each other but that's not entirely relevant).

But neither Marcia nor Tanith can emulate Jill's durability.

What's the problem here? You're forfeiting a lot of things in an efficient playthrough, and even if we lose Haar, what amount of turns is Haar himself saving that Marcia/Tanith can't already save by themselves?

Nothing, I'm just commenting on the pros and cons of recruiting Marcia, Jill, both, or neither. This isn't directly related to Oscar vs. Marcia. Skipping Jill loses us Jill, Haar, the Brave Axe, a Laguzguard, and the Wyvern Band. Early clearing C12 further forfeits a couple Seraph Robes and Secret Books, I believe.

We do? We can't "take our time" with efficiency.

If we want to recruit Marcia, we need to spend at least 8 turns on C9, I believe. If we want to recruit Jill, we need to spend at least 5 turns in C11 and 7-8 turns in C12.

Not like Makalov is THAT important anyway, considering we'd have two fliers from C18 onwards.

I'm just enumerating the full costs of not recruiting Marcia.

Halfway through I decided to go back to see what we were arguing. I am arguing either Oscar > Jill > Marcia or Jill > Marcia > Oscar. Nothing against Jill with respect to Marcia, Oscar's position is the iffy one.

I see nothing wrong with Jill > Oscar > Marcia. Jill has enough advantages over Marcia for Oscar to snuggle in between.

[Anouleth]

Marcia needs to withstand 2 Dragon attacks. They all 2HKO 20/20 Marcia. Even if she dodges one (unlikely), she needs to withstand about 3 Cats, 3 Halberdiers, a Paladin, and a couple Hawks who all deal between 4-10 damage to an 18 Def Marcia. Marcia has been vigored, Tanith's support can't provide any extra avoid for her. It's possible, but unlikely for Marcia to survive all of this. A dracoshield and/or Seraph Robe can help, but they don't remove the risk of death entirely.

I am personally of the opinion that if the first Seraph Robe goes anywhere, it should go to Marcia.

In addition, Marcia does not "need" to withstand all that. She would only need to if she ORKOed all those enemy types. Unless it is necessary for her to KO all of them to pull off the 2-turn strategy, it seems much more reasonable to give her a slightly weaker weapon to reduce the amount she enters combat because the enemies will start targeting Ike, who does have that kind of durability.

Nothing, I'm just commenting on the pros and cons of recruiting Marcia, Jill, both, or neither. This isn't directly related to Oscar vs. Marcia. Skipping Jill loses us Jill, Haar, the Brave Axe, a Laguzguard, and the Wyvern Band. Early clearing C12 further forfeits a couple Seraph Robes and Secret Books, I believe.

Uh, one Robe and one Book.

I see nothing wrong with Jill > Oscar > Marcia. Jill has enough advantages over Marcia for Oscar to snuggle in between.

You mean a minor durability advantage? There's also the downside, iirc, that Jill has some difficulty ORKOing Muarim because she needs to be some absurdly high level to double him.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

I am personally of the opinion that if the first Seraph Robe goes anywhere, it should go to Marcia.

The C1 Seraph Robe? That should probably go to Ike. Marcia is one of the best candidates for the C12 Seraph Robe.

In addition, Marcia does not "need" to withstand all that. She would only need to if she ORKOed all those enemy types. Unless it is necessary for her to KO all of them to pull off the 2-turn strategy, it seems much more reasonable to give her a slightly weaker weapon to reduce the amount she enters combat because the enemies will start targeting Ike, who does have that kind of durability.

Here's the situation as I understand it. A flier (with a bunch of help from shoving and Reyson) drops Ike as near to the seize square as possible. On turn 2, we want the flier to kill Heddwyn and Ike to seize. For this to be possible, Ike cannot be blocked on two sides. Ike should be able to ORKO all of the enemies except the Dragons. If both dragons attack Ike, he's blocked and we fail. The Dragons will prefer to attack the flier over Ike, which is what we'd prefer. But the Dragons move last, and the other enemies will also prefer to attack the flier. So if the flier fails to KO most of the other attacking enemies, the Dragons will attack and block Ike. Ergo, the flier needs to be able to ORKO almost all of the 1-range enemies. We might be able to get around this if Ike has Wrath/Resolve and the Dragons can put him into Resolve range (likely). In that case, Ike has a good chance of killing the Dragons on enemy phase. At least theoretically. A 2-turn of C28 is tough to pull off, even with Jill, so I'm not sure it's worth all that much attention.

You mean a minor durability advantage? There's also the downside, iirc, that Jill has some difficulty ORKOing Muarim because she needs to be some absurdly high level to double him.

No, I mean a minor Atk advantage and a major durability advantage.

You're right about C15, but even if Jill doesn't double, she can pull off a 2-turn clear on enemy phase (with the Laguz Lance). That has the downside of potentially sacrificing the pacifistic clear. But a 2-turn clear of C15 always has a fair bit of uncertainty, so it shouldn't be even close to assumed. There are 100% 3-turn clear strategies, which also allow us more time to get the hidden treasures. And if we want Stefan, we can get him and clear the chapter in 4 turns with Jill and Marcia working together.

[Radiant Dragon]

Quit bringing up Jill. Is this a Jill vs. Marcia argument? Are we only allowed to use one flier? Not last time I checked. Jill's advantages over Marcia are not particularly relevant. You don't see us bringing up Kieran, who has better stats across the board (aside from a couple points of Skill and Speed) than Oscar, do you?

It is Marcia's advantages over Oscar that are important here. Marcia may need more BEXP and never have quite as much Strength and Defense, but Oscar will never be able to fly. Fliers can do everything Paladins can and then some. Flying utility is just that good in FE9.

Let's do some generalizing here: Any Chapter where Oscar is valuable after Marcia joins, Marcia can do his job just as well (she does want the Full Guard occasionally though, but she's the best unit for it, even though Tanith is good too). Then there are just as many Chapters where Marcia can do things Oscar can never do. Marcia has so many Chapters where she's doing stuff Oscar never could to save turns (and FYI, rescue-dropping Ike over a mountain or whatever is impressive, since Oscar will never be able to do so), and you can not handwave that simply by saying 'Jill's better than Marcia'.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[aku chi]

Quit bringing up Jill. Is this a Jill vs. Marcia argument? Are we only allowed to use one flier? Not last time I checked. Jill's advantages over Marcia are not particularly relevant. You don't see us bringing up Kieran, who has better stats across the board (aside from a couple points of Skill and Speed) than Oscar, do you?

It is Marcia's advantages over Oscar that are important here. Marcia may need more BEXP and never have quite as much Strength and Defense, but Oscar will never be able to fly. Fliers can do everything Paladins can and then some. Flying utility is just that good in FE9.

Let's do some generalizing here: Any Chapter where Oscar is valuable after Marcia joins, Marcia can do his job just as well (she does want the Full Guard occasionally though, but she's the best unit for it, even though Tanith is good too). Then there are just as many Chapters where Marcia can do things Oscar can never do. Marcia has so many Chapters where she's doing stuff Oscar never could to save turns (and FYI, rescue-dropping Ike over a mountain or whatever is impressive, since Oscar will never be able to do so), and you can not handwave that simply by saying 'Jill's better than Marcia'.

If anybody's doing any handwaving here, it's you. I don't deny that Marcia can do some things that Oscar cannot. In fact, I believe I've enumerated them at some point in the past.

But that doesn't mean we can handwave away:

- Oscar's earlygame chapters where he contributes meaningfully and Marcia doesn't exist.

- The vast amount of resources that Marcia needs to reach her potential (in excess of Oscar).

- Oscar's slightly better Atk and vastly superior durability, which give him an edge in chapters where flying is not noteworthy.

[Radiant Dragon]

- Oscar's earlygame chapters where he contributes meaningfully and Marcia doesn't exist.

Actually, he doesn't do much of anything meaningful because Titania dominates. He saves us a turn in Chapter 1, but that's all (Chapter 6 can be 5 turned with just Ike and Titania, and he's not necessary in Chapter 7).

- The vast amount of resources that Marcia needs to reach her potential (in excess of Oscar).

I'm going to do an efficient run of this game later today to prove that BEXP is not an issue in this game. And I'll be using Rolf, Astrid and Tormod, among others. Your continued flaunting of 'vast amount of resources' simply doesn't stand up when it comes to how we actually play the game.

- Oscar's slightly better Atk and vastly superior durability, which give him an edge in chapters where flying is not noteworthy.

Not really. Marcia's worse defensive parameters don't hinder her at all until really late game (like, Chapter 28 and Endgame). Her slightly worse offensive parameters cause some problems with the tougher enemy types starting around Chapter 26 or so, but I'll take that in return for Marcia's superior performance in Chapters where flight is important.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Radiant Kitty