FE9 Tier list v3

[Dark Sage]

Largo can have a pretty impressive C25. With just a few levels of Bexp, he can ORKO everything with a Silver Axe forge and ORKO most of the beorc at 1-2 range with a forged Hand Axe. And while his paper-thin durability normally means that you need to be very careful with his positioning, Vantage + Wrath is a potential costly solution to his durability woes (100% chance to crit-blick with a Killer Axe or ~80% chance to crit-blick with a +crit Hand Axe forge while in Wrath range).

Largo can also help clear some of the chokepoint Generals in C27, being one of the few units that can cleanly ORKO them.

Vantage/Wrath is a pretty bad idea on Largo since he uses both the Vantage and Wrath scrolls up and Ike can save turns in Endgame if he gets the Wrath skill. Largo's not like Mia and Nephenee with Vantage/Wrath since they only need to take one of the scrolls to use the combo.

Vantage+Brave Axe can really help Largo's durability out and makes him a ORKOing machine, though I myself am more impressed by Janaff's flight utility.

[Anouleth]

Vantage+Brave Axe can really help Largo's durability out and makes him a ORKOing machine, though I myself am more impressed by Janaff's flight utility.

Largo's 31ATK with the Brave does not 2HKO any promoted enemy except for magic users (who he can't counter on enemy phase anyway). Unless you're relying on crits, in which case he would be better with the Killer Axe which has less competition anyway.

[Zkirsche]

Janaff isn't that good either, he's locked to a one range weapon and cannot ORKO most enemy types (whereas Largo can ORKO at 1-2 range). There's a large availability gap here, but there's a large availability gap between say, Rolf and Largo as well.

6 chapters of flight (excluding chapter 22) and 8 mov more than makes up for it (note that Janaff has the same flight and 8 mov after Largo joins as well). Also don't exaggerate, rofl vs Largo is on a completely different scale to Janaff vs Largo as Janaff actually has some good use.

Not to mention Largo's durabiltiy isn't stellar, so don't make it out like Largo isn't facing problems.

Largo can have a pretty impressive C25.

So can Janaff, especially since Janaff can also help ferry Largo across the cliff. Oh wait, we can't ferry-drop Largo because he'd be ripped to shred the moment he's dropped. 10 Def is atrocious.

he can ORKO everything with a Silver Axe forge...

Which every Paladin wants except maybe Kieran. Maybe. There's also only been 2 opportunities for that silveraxe forge.

ORKO most of the beorc at 1-2 range with a forged Hand Axe.

Wait, so he has access to both a forged silver axe and a forged hand axe? He's only just joined, yet we're giving every valuable tool to him. Janaff don't want anything aside from maybe the demi band after turn 4, but we're probably not losing a lot by dropping Muarim at this point regardless (if we're using him in the first place that is).

Also, Janaff does have some offensive advantages, like being able to ORKO SM's. Largo is not doubling those, but a level 14 or higher Janaff can double, and thus ORKO them. A level 17 Janaff (A level per chapter and level of bexp) has 32 Atk, which also ORKO's snipers (32 HP/14Def) and sages too. And it leaves most other things in single digit or almost single digit health (with the exceptions of the stronger laguz). So it's not like he's completely useless one the offensive side, level 9 Largo with a hand axe has 31 atk, less than Janaff's atk. And 49 HP/17 Def is doing a lot better than 54HP/10 Def when it comes to taking a few hits.

Largo simply cannot tank enough more units for his offensive lead to become prominent, and then Janaff still has 6 chapters before him and will always have mobility on his side as well.

Edited August 8, 2011 by kirsche

[aku chi]

6 chapters of flight (excluding chapter 22) and 8 mov more than makes up for it (note that Janaff has the same flight and 8 mov after Largo joins as well). Also don't exaggerate, rofl vs Largo is on a completely different scale to Janaff vs Largo as Janaff actually has some good use.

Janaff only has "use" (I still wouldn't call it good) if you're depriving yourself of using any of the four excellent Falcon Knights and Wyvern Lords.

So can Janaff, especially since Janaff can also help ferry Largo across the cliff. Oh wait, we can't ferry-drop Largo because he'd be ripped to shred the moment he's dropped. 10 Def is atrocious.

No, he can't. Janaff is so weak he can't even lift Largo. I'd have to double-check to see if he can even lift Nephenee or Boyd. And Janaff's unlikely to make it up to the top in safety, even if we give him the Full Guard: his durability sucks, too. And Janaff lacks canto and has only 8 mov and so is considerably worse at rescue-dropping here than the four good fliers.

Which every Paladin wants except maybe Kieran. Maybe. There's also only been 2 opportunities for that silveraxe forge.

Which every Paladin is unable to make good use of in C25 and can use in every other chapter if they want...

Wait, so he has access to both a forged silver axe and a forged hand axe? He's only just joined, yet we're giving every valuable tool to him. Janaff don't want anything aside from maybe the demi band after turn 4, but we're probably not losing a lot by dropping Muarim at this point regardless (if we're using him in the first place that is).

You know those awesome Paladins we've been using and giving forges for all this time? They can't do jack in C25. It's the least they can do to lend Largo some of their forges for this one chapter. Janaff's combat sucks in C25 just like every other chapter. He's lucky to 2RKO and has no 2-range. And that's without the Demi Band.

Also, Janaff does have some offensive advantages, like being able to ORKO SM's. Largo is not doubling those, but a level 14 or higher Janaff can double, and thus ORKO them. A level 17 Janaff (A level per chapter and level of bexp) has 32 Atk, which also ORKO's snipers (32 HP/14Def) and sages too. And it leaves most other things in single digit or almost single digit health (with the exceptions of the stronger laguz).

You're in fantasy land if you think Janaff will be level 17 by C25. Janaff is not gaining a level per chapter and he would need 2 levels of Bexp even if he did. And I can think of about 30 better uses of Bexp. Level 14 isn't very likely either, since Janaff struggles to ORKO throughout and some of his pre-C25 chapters are very short (19 and 22 come to mind). And Largo can OHKO Swordmasters with a Silver Axe forge and a few levels of Bexp.

So it's not like he's completely useless one the offensive side, level 9 Largo with a hand axe has 31 atk, less than Janaff's atk. And 49 HP/17 Def is doing a lot better than 54HP/10 Def when it comes to taking a few hits.

Yeah, he kinda is. When you talk about Janaff's combat, you compare it to Lucia and Volke's. And then he still disappoints. Janaff is not reaching 31 Atk and a level 9 Largo with a forged Hand Axe (of which there are undoubtedly several just lying around, unusable by Paladins) has 36 Atk, enough to 2HKO more than half the beorc and crit-kill everything on the map.

Largo simply cannot tank enough more units for his offensive lead to become prominent, and then Janaff still has 6 chapters before him and will always have mobility on his side as well.

Largo doesn't need any enemy phase to beat Janaff's "combat". And Largo can tank like a pro with Vantage/Wrath. It's no guarantee, but it's an option that he has and Janaff doesn't. The mobility and availability leads are fine and all, but Janaff still needs to be able to do something with them. Otherwise you could extend your argument to Ulki.

[Zkirsche]

Janaff only has "use" (I still wouldn't call it good) if you're depriving yourself of using any of the four excellent Falcon Knights and Wyvern Lords.

Have you even ever used Janaff before? From this comment, I doubt it.

Besides, by rescue-dropping someone, that frees one of the "four excellent falcon knights and wyvern lords" (which includes mid-tier Haar for some reason) to do otehr things, such as not have half speed. Or carry more than three units. Or clear a path for other units to get through etc. Janaff doesn't have to be amazing to make his availabiltiy go to work.

No, he can't. Janaff is so weak he can't even lift Largo. I'd have to double-check to see if he can even lift Nephenee or Boyd. And Janaff's unlikely to make it up to the top in safety, even if we give him the Full Guard: his durability sucks, too. And Janaff lacks canto and has only 8 mov and so is considerably worse at rescue-dropping here than the four good fliers.

No, Largo is so heavy Janaff can't lift him. 17 wt is very, very bulky. He's heavier than Gatrie, for crying out loud. 16 wt after transformation is good enough to carry most beorc.

Also, I'd like to point out that if Janaff's durability sucks, Largo's sucks even harder. Base Largo can be 2HKO'ed. Heck, level 9 Largo can be 2HKO'ed. And the difference between 2-3HKO'ed and 3-4HKO'ed is quite large, especially given that Janaff has an easier time at running away.

Which every Paladin is unable to make good use of in C25 and can use in every other chapter if they want...

And what of Boyd? And Jill? And the excellent Haar? And what if Ike/Marcia/Tanith want forged swords/lances?

And if he's only using it in chapter 25, then now it's 1 chapter of being mediocre vs 9 chapters of being mediocre.

Janaff's combat sucks in C25 just like every other chapter. He's lucky to 2RKO and has no 2-range. And that's without the Demi Band.

"lucky to 2RKO"? The only enemy he doesn't 2RKO is the Tiger. Not to mention that if you give Largo a hand axe his atk drops to Janaff's level anyway. Besides, Janaff ORKO'ed sages, snipers and SM's.

You're in fantasy land if you think Janaff will be level 17 by C25. Janaff is not gaining a level per chapter and he would need 2 levels of Bexp even if he did. And I can think of about 30 better uses of Bexp. Level 14 isn't very likely either, since Janaff struggles to ORKO throughout and some of his pre-C25 chapters are very short (19 and 22 come to mind). And Largo can OHKO Swordmasters with a Silver Axe forge and a few levels of Bexp.

All 30 of those uses would involve having Oscar/Jill/Kieran go from ORKO'ing everything and never dying to ORKO'ing everything and never dying, I'll bet. Oh wait, they don't ORKO because we've given all of our forges to Largo so that he can actually perform semi-decently for a chapter.

And level 14 is perfectly reasonable. Heck, we even calculated that level 16 only costs ~15% of the bexp gained from chapter 17 to chapter 24. That's the "fair share" of a unit is it not?

Largo doesn't need any enemy phase to beat Janaff's "combat". And Largo can tank like a pro with Vantage/Wrath. It's no guarantee, but it's an option that he has and Janaff doesn't. The mobility and availability leads are fine and all, but Janaff still needs to be able to do something with them. Otherwise you could extend your argument to Ulki.

Weakening 3 enemies > killing 1 every other turn. And he's NOT getting vantage/wrath, in any playthrough.

[aku chi]

Have you even ever used Janaff before? From this comment, I doubt it.

Have you? By praising his offense, I doubt it.

Besides, by rescue-dropping someone, that frees one of the "four excellent falcon knights and wyvern lords" (which includes mid-tier Haar for some reason) to do otehr things, such as not have half speed. Or carry more than three units. Or clear a path for other units to get through etc. Janaff doesn't have to be amazing to make his availabiltiy go to work.

Would you be so kind as to identify the units with less than or equal availability to Haar that are higher in the tier list? All five beorc fliers (hell, even Elincia) are leagues better than the Hawks. I won't deny that Janaff can have some utility if you're depriving yourself of using some of these excellent units, and that should be taken into account. I reckon chapters 20, 21, and 23 are some of his better contributions.

No, Largo is so heavy Janaff can't lift him. 17 wt is very, very bulky. He's heavier than Gatrie, for crying out loud. 16 wt after transformation is good enough to carry most beorc.

I believe that Janaff only gains 8 Wt despite gaining 10 Con, which places his transformed Wt at 14 (somebody can double-check). I can't recall if either Boyd or Nephenee have 13 Wt post-promotion. Janaff certainly can't rescue the Generals, Devdan, Stefan, or Largo unlike the beorc fliers (Ulki can also rescue some of them).

Also, I'd like to point out that if Janaff's durability sucks, Largo's sucks even harder. Base Largo can be 2HKO'ed. Heck, level 9 Largo can be 2HKO'ed. And the difference between 2-3HKO'ed and 3-4HKO'ed is quite large, especially given that Janaff has an easier time at running away.

Or not, when you consider that Janaff attracts more 2-range attacks and suffers bonus damage from Wind magic, bows, and ballistae. Janaff's durability isn't scoring any points.

And what of Boyd? And Jill? And the excellent Haar? And what if Ike/Marcia/Tanith want forged swords/lances?

It would be absurd not to have at least one forged Hand Axe handy by the time C25 rolls around that would normally be wielded by a Paladin. Largo can take that. The Silver Axe forge is less of a guarantee, but I'm sure that it was one of our first two Silver forges. Largo can make very good use of it. Haar and Jill will be unlikely to be able to wield it without an Arms Scroll. And if we've been training Boyd, Largo is admittedly rather redundant. Rather like Janaff if any beorc flier is used.

And if he's only using it in chapter 25, then now it's 1 chapter of being mediocre vs 9 chapters of being mediocre.

No, it's 1 chapter of being very good (C25), 1 chapter of being useful (C27), and 3 chapters of being mediocre versus 3 chapters of being useful (C20, C21, and C23) and 9 chapters of being mediocre or worse. Which makes it a nuanced comparison.

"lucky to 2RKO"? The only enemy he doesn't 2RKO is the Tiger. Not to mention that if you give Largo a hand axe his atk drops to Janaff's level anyway. Besides, Janaff ORKO'ed sages, snipers and SM's.

Oh, are we still talking about the fictional Level 17 Janaff? Because even a Level 14 Janaff misses out on 2HKOing the Cats and Ravens he doesn't double. And even considering Largo's offense with an unforged Hand Axe is insultingly disingenuous. And Largo is still better with that crappy weapon by virtue of 1-2 range and non-negligible crit.

All 30 of those uses would involve having Oscar/Jill/Kieran go from ORKO'ing everything and never dying to ORKO'ing everything and never dying, I'll bet. Oh wait, they don't ORKO because we've given all of our forges to Largo so that he can actually perform semi-decently for a chapter.

[sarcasm]Yeah, we'd be much better off giving Oscar and Kieran forges for C25. They move so well! And giving Janaff Bexp to go from not 2RKOing to almost consistently 2RKOing is a brilliant use of Bexp![/sarcasm]

And level 14 is perfectly reasonable. Heck, we even calculated that level 16 only costs ~15% of the bexp gained from chapter 17 to chapter 24. That's the "fair share" of a unit is it not?

I don't know what calculations you've performed. I'm skeptical that Janaff can gain a level per chapter. And you're behind the times talking about a "fair share" of Bexp. Bexp is awarded based on how well the unit can use it. Janaff cannot use Bexp effectively.

Weakening 3 enemies > killing 1 every other turn. And he's NOT getting vantage/wrath, in any playthrough.

What if I told you I gave Largo Vantage/Wrath in my playthrough!?! Dun, dun, DUN!!! Depending on what units you've been training, Wrath/Vantage Largo has a chance to save a turn in C25, so it's not worth ignoring. Especially when Resolve Ike can defeat Ashnard just as fast as Resolve/Wrath Ashnard if you're unlucky with crits. And any durability lead you're imagining for Janaff is not even close to enough to give him better combat than Largo.

You have your best chance in this debate if you cede combat and talk about Janaff's auxilary flier utility and greater availability (ideally with precise examples).

[Lord Raven]

I find the fact that the Hawks don't have Canto irritating for rescue dropping. Then they can't really move after they rescue, nor can they move after they drop. I'd much rather use a Falcon/Wyvern to do that.

No, it's 1 chapter of being very good (C25), 1 chapter of being useful (C27), and 3 chapters of being mediocre versus 3 chapters of being useful (C20, C21, and C23) and 9 chapters of being mediocre or worse.

so 2 good chapters vs 3 good chapters is the way you're saying it. Units don't have to be fielded past where they're useful and their performance doesn't necessarily have to be judged past that if they're not useful (this is covered by a lower spot on a tier list compared to those that are useful for longer); obviously a character who is useful for 3 chapters is better than a character that's useful for 1 or 2 chapters. Edited August 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Zkirsche]

Have you? By praising his offense, I doubt it.

I believe I have picked Janaff for every single draft tournament I've participated in, as well as the majority of my HM playthrough, although many of those were non-efficient.

Would you be so kind as to identify the units with less than or equal availability to Haar that are higher in the tier list? All five beorc fliers (hell, even Elincia) are leagues better than the Hawks. I won't deny that Janaff can have some utility if you're depriving yourself of using some of these excellent units, and that should be taken into account. I reckon chapters 20, 21, and 23 are some of his better contributions.

Except Janaff can always kill the faster units other units struggle to double, and thus ORKO, so he always has utility even if he's not the only flier (and even then his flight can still come in handy, as I'm sure the otehr units wouldn't mind not having to have their speed and skill halved.)

And again, even if he's just clearing corridors for better units to move through faster, what Janaff does is miles better than what Largo does, which is a whole lot of nothing.

I believe that Janaff only gains 8 Wt despite gaining 10 Con, which places his transformed Wt at 14 (somebody can double-check). I can't recall if either Boyd or Nephenee have 13 Wt post-promotion. Janaff certainly can't rescue the Generals, Devdan, Stefan, or Largo unlike the beorc fliers (Ulki can also rescue some of them).

I just checked, and this is true. Someone will have to check the neph/Boyd thing. But hey, being able to rescue drop Ike is the important thing, and he can do that! Also he can rescue drop reyson.

Or not, when you consider that Janaff attracts more 2-range attacks and suffers bonus damage from Wind magic, bows, and ballistae. Janaff's durability isn't scoring any points.

All of these are priority 1 enemy phase targets anyway because of our 4 excellent fliers.

It would be absurd not to have at least one forged Hand Axe handy by the time C25 rolls around that would normally be wielded by a Paladin.

It was mostly at the silver forge thing.

The Silver Axe forge is less of a guarantee, but I'm sure that it was one of our first two Silver forges. Largo can make very good use of it. Haar and Jill will be unlikely to be able to wield it without an Arms Scroll. And if we've been training Boyd, Largo is admittedly rather redundant. Rather like Janaff if any beorc flier is used.

Haar and Jill are also perfect candidates for our arms scrolls then.

No, it's 1 chapter of being very good (C25), 1 chapter of being useful (C27), and 3 chapters of being mediocre versus 3 chapters of being useful (C20, C21, and C23) and 9 chapters of being mediocre or worse. Which makes it a nuanced comparison.

Largo is not "very good" in chapter 25. He's "decent" in chapter 25. He can only face 1-2 enemies per turn, so it's not like his offence is going to town, and that's the only thing going for him. Ike/Boyd/Neph/Marcia/Tanith/Haar/Jill all still exist and are still very good units that can handle most things. Ike may lack 1-2 range and the atk, I'll give you, but Boyd and Nephenee are still stellar and you yourself called the last four excellent. So Largo is like our 7th string fighter, and he immediately sucks out a forge to top it off. Janaff at least has unique utility in being able to ORKO fast enemies.

Oh, are we still talking about the fictional Level 17 Janaff? Because even a Level 14 Janaff misses out on 2HKOing the Cats and Ravens he doesn't double. And even considering Largo's offense with an unforged Hand Axe is insultingly disingenuous. And Largo is still better with that crappy weapon by virtue of 1-2 range and non-negligible crit.

What cats and ravens he doesn't double? Level 14 Janaff has 24 AS when transformed. 1 SM outspeeds that. He 2RKO's all of the laguz and 1RKO's all of the SM's he can double.

[sarcasm]Yeah, we'd be much better off giving Oscar and Kieran forges for C25. They move so well! And giving Janaff Bexp to go from not 2RKOing to almost consistently 2RKOing is a brilliant use of Bexp![/sarcasm]

Janaff 2RKO's consistently without tonnes of bexp, as I've shown. Instead of just saying that he 3RKO's, why don't you drag out the numbers that prove that Janaff doesn't 2RKO consistently.

I don't know what calculations you've performed. I'm skeptical that Janaff can gain a level per chapter. And you're behind the times talking about a "fair share" of Bexp. Bexp is awarded based on how well the unit can use it. Janaff cannot use Bexp effectively.

The "fair share" of bexp was in case you moaned about how much more bexp Janaff uses than the rest of the team.

What if I told you I gave Largo Vantage/Wrath in my playthrough!?! Dun, dun, DUN!!! Depending on what units you've been training, Wrath/Vantage Largo has a chance to save a turn in C25, so it's not worth ignoring. Especially when Resolve Ike can defeat Ashnard just as fast as Resolve/Wrath Ashnard if you're unlucky with crits. And any durability lead you're imagining for Janaff is not even close to enough to give him better combat than Largo.

"Has a chance to save a turn" <-- so basically what you're saying is that if one is lucky enough, you can shave a turn on chapter 25, and then if you're lucky enough again in endgame, it won't be lost again.

This is also completely ignoring that Nephenee wants that vantage too.

You have your best chance in this debate if you cede combat and talk about Janaff's auxilary flier utility and greater availability (ideally with precise examples).

I've told you that and you're still going on and on and arguing against it. I shouldn't need to explain why flier utility is good and availabiltiy is good: that's common sense. You should already know all the obstacles the game throws at you without me having to constantly remind you.

And yes, Largo's combat is better than Janaff's, except Janaff's can be more useful in certain situations (like against SM's). Largo however is just another fighter to add to the many above him on the tier list.

[Lord Raven]

And yes, Largo's combat is better than Janaff's, except Janaff's can be more useful in certain situations (like against SM's). Largo however is just another fighter to add to the many above him on the tier list.

So Largo > Janaff in a bunch of situations but Janaff > Largo in a few situations? And then you proceed to say Largo is "another Fighter"? The only thing Janaff has over Largo is that he can fly. And it's not even with Canto, flying, so he's essentially a ground unit who isn't affected by terrain (except he detransforms after at most 5-6 turns if he's going to enter combat at all). Then you proceed to have the gall to call Largo "another fighter" much like... Janaff?

I support Janaff > Largo but your argument contradicts itself.

[Anouleth]

So Largo > Janaff in a bunch of situations but Janaff > Largo in a few situations?

No, he's saying that Largo usually has better offense but even Janaff has better offense in a few situations (specifically, Swordmasters that Largo cannot double).

And then you proceed to say Largo is "another Fighter"? The only thing Janaff has over Largo is that he can fly.

And better availability. And better durability. The only thing that Largo has over Janaff is better offense.

[Life]

Haar and Jill are also perfect candidates for our arms scrolls then.

Haar is quite decent but Jill is not. Tossing an Arms Scroll on Jill's Axe rank is similar to pissing in your coffee mug and then drinking it.

The thing is that Jill starts with E Axes. E. Even when only using a forged Steel Axe (and assuming that she never uses another weapon), she still needs to swing the thing 55 times by Chapter 25 (assuming an Arms Scroll on her at B level). Considering that someone like Oscar or Boyd promotes much earlier due to existing since the beginning of time, you might as well give them the Arms Scroll for the same results. In addition, Jill doesn't want or need an Arms Scroll to help with her offense. She just goes from "kill everything" to "overkill everything". AKA no difference.

In any case, the Arms Scrolls may go to someone like Haar or Devdan or even Rolf or Mist or whoever. Not Jill.

The "fair share" of bexp was in case you moaned about how much more bexp Janaff uses than the rest of the team.

I remember this conversation from #feto. And I believe that I showed you that it's only fair to claim that Janaff's take of BExp is acceptable if we're fielding him instead of Largo. Janaff was taking about 20% of the BExp that we earn between 18 and 25 to become mediocre. I'm not getting into the Largo issue but let me just remind you what I pointed out to you.

- Janaff needs 1 or 2 pure BExp levels on top of BExp finishing off a level.

- Janaff will be scoring ~33 Exp a chapter if he's lucky.

Kevin, I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your logic. I personally believe that Janaff is better than Largo (his existence in 19, 20, 21 and 23 with a Full Guard come to mind) but the way you're going about to prove it is wrong.

[-Cynthia-]

Put Janaff>Largo since everyone seems to agree on that point at least.

[Zkirsche]

I remember this conversation from #feto

I believe I showed how it cost 16% of the bexp for level 16, and 11% for level 14. The 20% was what you said at the start, and I disagreed with.

Edited August 12, 2011 by kirsche

[Life]

I believe I showed how it cost 16% of the bexp for level 16, and 11% for level 14. The 20% was what you said at the start, and I disagreed with.

You also failed to show why Janaff is deserving of such BExp to become fairly mediocre, if I recall correctly.

[aku chi]

At this point, I'm confused as to why Janaff is so much higher than Ulki. Janaff's combat leads aren't worth much, because his combat is so poor as to be rarely (if ever) worth using. Ulki does need to monopolize the Demi Band to match Janaff's flier utility, but the Demi Band is increasingly less contested as the beast laguz get outclassed in lategame. And with the Demi Band, Ulki has the (slightly) superior flier utility. He is slightly more durable (mostly thanks to Vigilance) and can rescue some heavier units. I guess Ulki can't equip the Full Guard like Janaff can, but Janaff is rarely the best candidate anyways.

However, I'm not comfortable comparing Ulki with any of the units between him and Janaff, so I'd be interested in suggestions.

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, from what I understand Janaff is currently as high as he is almost solely due to his flier utility, so I can definitely see the gap shrinking. However, the Beast Laguz aren't getting outclassed for a while. I don't remember exactly when Muarim stops ORKOing most units, but I would guess it's around Chapter 26 or so. And Ranulf's no slouch either (not great, but not bad).

I would argue Ulki > Rolf, and maybe Elincia, but I'm not completely comfortable with a Ulki vs. Shinon comparison, due to the availability differences.

[Lord Raven]

Ulki can't double. I was playing normal mode and base Ulki could only do one hit and like... nothing else. They can't even hit-and-run. With a Demi Band, his doubling problem actually gets worse.

[aku chi]

And Ranulf's no slouch either (not great, but not bad).

Actually, Ranulf has better combat than Muarim during their shared chapters in almost all realistic scenarios. It's not a huge win, and Muarim does have the (slightly) better shove utility. The Demi Band definitely does have some competition, so I can see that being the most important factor.

I would argue Ulki > Rolf, and maybe Elincia, but I'm not completely comfortable with a Ulki vs. Shinon comparison, due to the availability differences.

They're all tough comparisons from my point of view. Rolf has a big availability lead but isn't as useful in their shared chapters. Elincia has much less availability but is clearly more valuable in their shared chapters.

Ulki can't double. I was playing normal mode and base Ulki could only do one hit and like... nothing else. They can't even hit-and-run. With a Demi Band, his doubling problem actually gets worse.

Which would be relevant if Janaff had combat worth mentioning. I'm not exactly awed by Janaff being barely able to ORKO Sages at 1 range. Plus, Ulki can often do the same. You're overstating Ulki's inability to double. But it's really not relevant, so I won't go into it.

[-Cynthia-]

14 AS with the Demi Band is pretty bad, in comparison to Janaff at least. And without the Demi Band, Ulki can't do much at all. Still, could probably see him a bit higher.

[Radiant Dragon]

Actually, Ranulf has better combat than Muarim during their shared chapters in almost all realistic scenarios. It's not a huge win, and Muarim does have the (slightly) better shove utility. The Demi Band definitely does have some competition, so I can see that being the most important factor.

Huh. I recall demi'd Muarim being able to ORKO some enemies that undemi'd, base Ranulf could not in Chapter 23, but this was a while ago and my memory is far from stellar. It's not a big detail, and the point (that the Hawks have very real competition for the Band) stays the same.

[-Cynthia-]

Huh. I recall demi'd Muarim being able to ORKO some enemies that undemi'd, base Ranulf could not in Chapter 23, but this was a while ago and my memory is far from stellar. It's not a big detail, and the point (that the Hawks have very real competition for the Band) stays the same.

Ranulf is definitely better at base, but I suppose with enough level ups Muarim is superior.

[Lord Raven]

Plus, Ulki can often do the same. You're overstating Ulki's inability to double.

How so? Enemies in the final chapter have the ability to double Ulki on normal mode. Ulki's AS reaches like 20 max at --/20 (which he won't reach) which is not even enough to double things in the late game, let alone his 14 base (will probably go up to 17 if you get 5 levels on him) not doing much for him.

I still don't entirely understand how useful flier ability can be if you can't exactly use Canto to get out of the way. If anything, Janaff should be receiving praise for that because he doesn't need the Demi Band to do it. He can start on Turn 1 and go until Turn 7 (assuming he doesn't enter combat) but it's still questionable when you can't move after you rescue things.

[Radiant Dragon]

Ranulf is definitely better at base, but I suppose with enough level ups Muarim is superior.

I don't remember what level Muarim was, but he definitely wasn't at base level.

As for Ulki's stats, units Rescuing others without Savior shouldn't be seeing much combat in the first place, so if we're only using him to ferry others his bad Speed isn't too debilitating. Definitely something to consider though, but I'd think a subpar rescue-bot (which lets our other fliers fight) is better than what Rolf brings to the table.

[Lord Raven]

Oh we're comparing Ulki and Rolf?

yea, fuck rolf. It is of my opinion that if you are not Astrid pre-promotion, then wielding a Bow and only a Bow is quite debilitating, especially when you come with poor stats. Ulki can chip better because he can at least evade the hits. Enemies aren't strong enough to make enemy phase relatively unimportant.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

Oh we're comparing Ulki and Rolf?

yea, fuck rolf. It is of my opinion that if you are not Astrid pre-promotion, then wielding a Bow and only a Bow is quite debilitating, especially when you come with poor stats. Ulki can chip better because he can at least evade the hits. Enemies aren't strong enough to make enemy phase relatively unimportant.

Assuming Rolf is trained, he has better combat than Ulki in their shared chapters.

20/2 Rolf with forged Steel Bow

33 HP, 30 Atk, 19 Skl, 18 Spd, 12 Lck, 14 Def, 9 Res

Level 7 Demi Band'd Ulki

41 HP, 25 Atk, 17 Skl, 14 Spd, 10 Lck, 16 Def, 10 Res

So Rolf doubles mores, deals a bunch more damage, hits weaknesses on fliers, and crits significantly more often. If you think giving Rolf a Steel Bow forge is unrealistic, a Silver Bow is just -1 Atk (but may require an Arms Scroll), and the Brave Bow and Killer Bow are options. Even with a basic Steel Bow, Rolf matches Ulki's poor Atk.

Ulki can deal more damage on enemy phase, but his enemy phase still sucks when he 2-3RKOs most enemies and does nothing against enemies with 2-range. I'll take Rolf's ability to ORKO on player phase any day. Ulki has slightly more durability, at least before you factor in his weaknesses. But since neither can really take advantage of enemy phase, their durability is simply sufficient.

In case you're curious, on the growth end: the two are similar. Ulki has slightly better growths but Rolf will level quicker with his level deficit.

If Ulki is more valuable than Rolf (which he may very well be), it would have to come from his flier utility, not his combat.

Edited August 15, 2011 by aku chi