FE9 Tier list v3

[Dark Sage]

Vantage/Wrath and actually having an existent enemy phase and durability doesn't push her over him? I dunno. Soren's not really doing anything worthwhile with his availability.

[Florete]

I'd personally say Soren's availability is worth jack shit due to his horrible durability and weak base offense. His awful Str can also make doubling naturally a problem. The only thing he really has on Mia is long range tomes, but those don't save enough and it's not exactly exclusive to him. I'd say Mia should definitely be higher for actually being able to hold her own in combat for a decent amount of time.

[-Cynthia-]

Soren's chip allows some other members of the team (Oscar, Boyd, Ike etc.) to either KO an enemy or avoid a counter. His performance isn't great, but it's better than nothing (and Soren's better in C7 than Mia is anyway).

How much more durable is Mia really? 8/0 Soren has 21 HP, 3 Def, 11 Res, and 29 Avo. 8/0 Mia has 22 HP, 7 Def, 2.5 Res, and 35 Avo. That doesn't strike me as an especially big difference once the fact that Soren takes counters less often is considered.

I'm also not sure putting Wrath on Mia is our best use of the skill really, since we only get one Wrath scroll and Wrath/Resolve Ike offers us a quick Ashnard clear.

[Dark Sage]

Ok. If not Wrath/Vantage, then how about Guard/Vantage? Besides, Ike w/Resolve+Miracle+Adept is nearly as good as Wrath/Resolve for the quick Ashnard clear.

You're also under the impression that Soren and Mia are going to be at equal levels, but let's take a more accurate look:

8/0 Soren: 21 HP, 3 Def, 11 Res, 29 avoid.

10/0 Mia: 23 HP, 7 defense, 37 avoid.

Factor in Vantage as well.

[Florete]

Soren's chip allows some other members of the team (Oscar, Boyd, Ike etc.) to either KO an enemy or avoid a counter. His performance isn't great, but it's better than nothing (and Soren's better in C7 than Mia is anyway).

Ch 4: Soren does nothing because he'll be killed if he tries.

Ch 5: Soren gets left behind.

Ch 6: Can't be beaten faster/Soren has to be walled and still 2 range enemies can threaten him (I might have switched Ch 5 and 6)

Ch 7: Arguably the first time Soren can be of significant help, but Mia is here also and can be just as helpful in cleaning up.

Ch 8: BEXP comes and Mia uses it to much greater effect since she actually gets some durability and offense.

And the game continues.

How much more durable is Mia really? 8/0 Soren has 21 HP, 3 Def, 11 Res, and 29 Avo. 8/0 Mia has 22 HP, 7 Def, 2.5 Res, and 35 Avo. That doesn't strike me as an especially big difference once the fact that Soren takes counters less often is considered.

Having them both at 8/0 is laughable. Mia sees more combat in general and I already mentioned BEXP.

I'm also not sure putting Wrath on Mia is our best use of the skill really, since we only get one Wrath scroll and Wrath/Resolve Ike offers us a quick Ashnard clear.

Wrath on Mia gets much more use out of it considering how early it's acquired. Wrath/Resolve for Ashnard is not even dependable, and it saves 1 turn at best.

[-Cynthia-]

Ch 4: Soren does nothing because he'll be killed if he tries.

Ch 5: Soren gets left behind.

Ch 6: Can't be beaten faster/Soren has to be walled and still 2 range enemies can threaten him (I might have switched Ch 5 and 6)

Yeah Ch5 is the defense map, Ch6 is the seize/arrive one. In Chapter 5, Soren can actually help to clear some enemies, the Knights for example will likely clog Titania's path (she can't ORKO them at 1-2 range, possible ORKOs with Hammer.

Ch 7: Arguably the first time Soren can be of significant help, but Mia is here also and can be just as helpful in cleaning up.

She's a bit helpful, but Soren's better against Knights which are the prominent enemy type here. Mia has a bigger offensive gap against the mages, but she has to take a counter in return...not good considering she gets 2HKOd by a lot of enemy combinations here.

Ch 8: BEXP comes and Mia uses it to much greater effect since she actually gets some durability and offense.

This statement is very questionable to me. How does Mia use it to "much greater effect"? Soren also improves in durability and offense when given BEXP (all characters do). It's not like Mia's growths are remarkably better than Soren's, or that she has high Mov or anything (1 more than Soren true, but similar attack range since he can attack from 2 spaces away rather than one).

Soren also get staves on promotion, which is a minor boon at least.

Having them both at 8/0 is laughable. Mia sees more combat in general and I already mentioned BEXP.

BEXP is the reason they're at similar levels, unless there's a particularly good reason Mia can get BEXP and Soren can't.

Wrath on Mia gets much more use out of it considering how early it's acquired. Wrath/Resolve for Ashnard is not even dependable, and it saves 1 turn at best.

We can give Ike Wrath as soon as we acquire it as well, and killing Ashnard sooner is a more definite decrease in turncount than whatever putting Wrath on Mia nets us.

Edited July 18, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

This statement is very questionable to me. How does Mia use it to "much greater effect"? Soren also improves in durability and offense when given BEXP (all characters do). It's not like Mia's growths are remarkably better than Soren's, or that she has high Mov or anything (1 more than Soren true, but similar attack range since he can attack from 2 spaces away rather than one).

Soren's durability is not 'improving' unless you feed him way more than he's due, and his offense will not improve very fast, either. Mia is much faster in getting to consistent ORKOing and dodging/taking hits.

We can give Ike Wrath as soon as we acquire it as well, and killing Ashnard sooner is a more definite decrease in turncount than whatever putting Wrath on Mia nets us.

Ike is much better with Aether before then.

[aku chi]

Soren's durability is not 'improving' unless you feed him way more than he's due, and his offense will not improve very fast, either. Mia is much faster in getting to consistent ORKOing and dodging/taking hits.

Soren takes fewer resources to consistently ORKO than Mia, who struggles with low Str and sword-lock for her entire existence. Soren needs a sizable chunk of Bexp (less than Mia) and a Thunder forge, but with it he can ORKO even the toughest enemies (Generals, Wyvern Lords) at 1-2 range, something that Mia can rarely (if ever) accomplish, even at 1 range.

Siege tomes are a powerful advantage for Soren that shouldn't be discounted. While Mia with her 7 mov and 1 range is likely to get left behind in many of the later chapters, Soren can contribute via siege tomes. While we could ferry Mia around, she is hardly the best candidate with her poor durability and lack of 2-range. Soren has competition for the siege tomes (especially from Calill, who is the best user in general), but a trained Soren has the easiest time of the Sages OHKOing with Bolting - and we're highly unlikely to train more than one Mage in any case. Staves are also a more minor advantage of Soren's.

Personally, I'm having a harder time understanding how Zihark can contribute more than Soren. While he takes a few less resources than Mia to start 1RKOing, he still lacks 1-2 range (and doesn't even have the off-chance Sonic Sword option like Mia) and isn't worth ferrying around.

[Florete]

Soren takes fewer resources to consistently ORKO than Mia, who struggles with low Str and sword-lock for her entire existence. Soren needs a sizable chunk of Bexp (less than Mia) and a Thunder forge, but with it he can ORKO even the toughest enemies (Generals, Wyvern Lords) at 1-2 range, something that Mia can rarely (if ever) accomplish, even at 1 range.

The problem is that even if Soren gets that far, he probably can only do it on player phase due to his awful durability, while Mia can help with multiple enemies on enemy phase. Mia's Str isn't even that low and it isn't hard to get her consistently ORKOing, especially with a support or two.

Siege tomes are a powerful advantage for Soren that shouldn't be discounted. While Mia with her 7 mov and 1 range is likely to get left behind in many of the later chapters, Soren can contribute via siege tomes. While we could ferry Mia around, she is hardly the best candidate with her poor durability and lack of 2-range. Soren has competition for the siege tomes (especially from Calill, who is the best user in general), but a trained Soren has the easiest time of the Sages OHKOing with Bolting - and we're highly unlikely to train more than one Mage in any case. Staves are also a more minor advantage of Soren's.

Siege tomes are very much situational. Chances are if he's just randomly shooting at enemy from afar, he's not really helping a thing. It's an advantage, sure, but considering all the other choices, Calill especially, it just isn't worth much.

Oh, and Soren's not ORKOing squat with Bolting because it sends his face to the ground. Unless he OHKOs, but that's fairly unlikely.

[Anouleth]

Soren actually has the worst speed with Siege tomes. Even Bastian beats him in that department.

[aku chi]

The problem is that even if Soren gets that far, he probably can only do it on player phase due to his awful durability, while Mia can help with multiple enemies on enemy phase.

Soren isn't ORKO'd, so he can take one enemy on enemy phase. If he avoids (quite likely with an Ike support), he can do it again. Mia's durability isn't a whole lot better until she promotes and we give her Wrath or Guard; she can't be exposed to more than a couple enemies before then. And Mia's enemy phase doesn't do us any favors when there are enemies with 2-range, she just becomes bait for them. Enemy phase is a tad irrelevant for both Soren and Mia though; given their poor movement, there's only a few chapters where they can realistically and meaningfully contribute on enemy phase (C7, C17-1, and C25 are the only ones that come to mind).

Mia's Str isn't even that low and it isn't hard to get her consistently ORKOing, especially with a support or two.

Surely you jest. Let's consider a 20/2 Mia with a Steel Sword forge (generously, no?) in C17-1. She averages 27 Mt. While this can 2HKO the Mages and Archers (big whoop), the Myrmidons (which it's handy that she can double), and a couple Fighters (barely), it misses the Knights, Halberdier, Fighter, and Sniper. And while supports can help her kill the Fighter and Sniper, the Knights (even with the Armorslayer) and Halberdier (which she can't reach in any reasonable time anyway) are out of reach. A 20/1 Soren, by contrast, can 2HKO every enemy with a Thunder forge, even the Mages (though he might not be able to double all of the Myrmidons). Chapter 18 is even worse for Mia, where even at 20/7 she'll struggle to 2HKO the Soldiers and Fighter/Warrior, and she has no chance against the Cavaliers, Knight/Generals, and Wyvern Riders. Again, Soren has no such problems.

Siege tomes are very much situational. Chances are if he's just randomly shooting at enemy from afar, he's not really helping a thing. It's an advantage, sure, but considering all the other choices, Calill especially, it just isn't worth much.

The chance of Soren getting a meaningful kill versus Mia skyrockets when he uses siege tomes. He can pick off Ballista operators to let your flyers safely advance, he can seriously injure bosses from afar, and more. What can Mia do in the latter half of the game? Using siege tomes is always worth it. It's a shame there are so few.

Oh, and Soren's not ORKOing squat with Bolting because it sends his face to the ground. Unless he OHKOs, but that's fairly unlikely.

You might be surprised. Bolting's 13 Mt and Soren's sky-high Magic can allow him to pull off some OHKOs on Ballistae operators. For instance: a 20/7 Soren with a single Spirit Dust can, on average, OHKO 4 of the 5 Ballista operators in C23. An Ike support can help Soren out if he comes up a little short.

Soren actually has the worst speed with Siege tomes. Even Bastian beats him in that department.

True, but Soren has the best chance to OHKO with his high Magic. Killing an enemy with one Bolting use is better than getting the same kill with one. And it isn't impossible for him to double with Blizzard.

[I.M. Gei]

Soren's horrendous strength drops his AS so much with any siege tome ;\

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't understand why people argue Siege tomes for Soren. He's rarely, if ever, getting above 3 strength, which means he loses 7 AS from Blizzard, and more from the others (if he even obtains the weapon ranks for them, which isn't too difficult I admit).

Also, I'm not sure it's worth it to give Soren the Spirit Dust solely to OHKO Archers in Ch.23, since A: I doubt it'll be use at any other point in the game, B: Calill wants a Dust more than he does (we can have 2 at this point, though), and is a better Siege tome user regardless, and C: Ike will not be near Soren to secure the OHKO's in case they proc too much HP/Res, since it's Seize.

I don't really have much of an opinion on Soren vs. the Myrmidons though, except to say that I don't think Zihark and Mia perform differently enough that Soren is better than Mia but worse than Zihark. Whether he should be above or below them however, I'm not sure.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

How does AS with Siege tomes even matter? The purpose is to hit from afar and weaken for something else (Sages do have low movement), not necessarily kill from afar. There is a point in the game where you will have trouble double attacking and even one-rounding, so Siege tomes help massively in that sense.

Though, to be perfectly fair, Callil also has access to Siege tomes while being less of a nuisance to raise -- it's a point up for both of them.

Also, as for Zihark and Mia's differences; wouldn't Zihark be less of a chore to train considering the chapters he comes in at and the chapters that follow? Mia barely does any damage in the chapter she comes in, all I recall are a couple Fighters (read: literally two) that she will... 3RKO, and one of them has a hand axe. They may be inaccurate but that is the only reliable source of EXP in that chapter for her. Compounded by the fact that she has a pretty bad source of EXP in the next couple chapters (considering Chapter 9 is filled to the core with spear users and only a couple axe knights -- I doubt you'd have the two level ups she needs to have a decent shot [64%] of at least one strength level up).

With Zihark, he has 3 more Str, a Killing Edge at base (so he can do some decent damage as soon as he comes in), Adept, and 4 more HP at base (realistically Mia will have 1 more Def at this point... at best). Hes got significant HP and Defense leads on her (L10/0 Mia will have something like 23/7.8 HP/Def, and Zihark can close the gap pretty quickly.

essentially Zihark comes in outclassing Mia in every way with quite a bit more ease of training- not to say he's exactly easy, but he's not as difficult as Mia.

I don't understand Stefan > Mia, Mia pretty much has no durability until promotion and she's definitely nowhere near outclassing Stefan once you recruit him. Mia also only has doubling on her side; Stefan comes in with high sword rank and 19 str/25 AS (Mia can't hit that) as well as Astra for that random chance of activation (even though it's.. just a weaker critical hit). Mia's offense at that point (let's say like 16/0?) comes nowhere close to Stefan's; in fact the only person that probably has Stefan beat in offense when he arrives are some Laguz and Titania.

Stefan's pretty much beating Mia in durability until she promotes and gains a couple levels due to his evade (and his massive 38 HP in comparison to her having around 26 at l16). for me it amounts to complete ease of use vs frail earlygame and not necessarily stronger but more durable lategame considering Stefan will always have a Str lead on Mia. Always, which is pretty important when both of them are doubling.

Stefan > Zihark is something I can't argue for; I don't think Stefan would honestly be that much better than Mia and be that much worse than Zihark. Zihark has more durability and evasion once his supports build up and he manages to promote. His offense is lackluster, but the durability gap between Zihark and Stefan is far greater than that of Mia and Stefan, especially since Mia and Stefan don't even have evade boosting affinities (and Mia's defense growth is pretty poor as is, I think Mia has to be promoted and raised a couple levels -- not unlike Zihark, in fact -- to match Stefan, but Zihark's got an HP advantage over Mia).

EDIT: nvm on Volke and Sothe but I don't understand why Sothe > Largo?

Edited July 19, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, 12 (even though Marcia faces the brunt of the combat, they still help deal with the eastern Ravens) 13, and to a lesser extent 14 are good chapters for Mia and Zihark. Also, Mia and Zihark have slightly better late game performances, as you said. However, Stefan's midgame performance is massively better than theirs. It's tough to judge, but I can see Stefan > Zihark and Mia.

As for Thieves vs. Largo, they have lots of positive utility racked up due to thief utility by the time Largo joins, and he's hampered by not having a mount (which is admittedly beneficial for his first map, Ch.25) and bad defensive stats.

[Life]

I don't understand Stefan > Mia, Mia pretty much has no durability until promotion and she's definitely nowhere near outclassing Stefan once you recruit him. Mia also only has doubling on her side; Stefan comes in with high sword rank and 19 str/25 AS (Mia can't hit that) as well as Astra for that random chance of activation (even though it's.. just a weaker critical hit). Mia's offense at that point (let's say like 16/0?) comes nowhere close to Stefan's; in fact the only person that probably has Stefan beat in offense when he arrives are some Laguz and Titania.

Stefan's pretty much beating Mia in durability until she promotes and gains a couple levels due to his evade (and his massive 38 HP in comparison to her having around 26 at l16). for me it amounts to complete ease of use vs frail earlygame and not necessarily stronger but more durable lategame considering Stefan will always have a Str lead on Mia. Always, which is pretty important when both of them are doubling.

I tried this argument about 200 posts ago and this was the response I got.

Well, your first problem is arguing Mia being only level 16 in chapter 16. That's ridiculous so until you can fix that, there's no point dealing with the rest of your statement.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&st=640&p=592058entry592058 (level 18 in chapter 13, so that's 2 levels higher 3 chapters earlier than you are giving her credit for. Come ON)

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&view=findpost&p=592185

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&st=800&p=598901entry598901 (team levels in chapter 18, as well as the amount of bexp he has left over)

So yeah. Try 20/1 or 20/0 in chapter 16, or possibly even 20/2. At least make your argument with reasonable levels on Mia rather than an abysmal level 16.

Enjoy.

[Lord Raven]

EDIT: Just saw your post Kitty Admiral... is Zihark better because of Earth support and the fact that he needs to consume less resources to hit that level? Then what exactly explains Soren being used here? Tier lists for these games confuse the piss out of me.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[-Cynthia-]

Mia's earlygame compared to Stefan really can only do her good, since being around and contributing is better than not being around at all.

That Str lead does look good though. It's 19 vs. like...14 for Mia (20/2), which is about a 10 gap increase in damage which can mean the difference between ORKOing stuff and not (or not having to use a forge to ORKO). IIRC a lot of comparisons used the Mia/Rhys support to bridge the gap, but bringing Rhys along on most maps and keeping him within 3 squares of Mia doesn't strike me as very efficient.

Zihark's Str is better than Mia's, but worse than Stefan's, Adept's a point in his favor and he wins durability over both (unlike Mia who needs Rhys, he can have any one of Muarim/Brom/Ilyana).

[Radiant Dragon]

(unlike Mia who needs Rhys, he can have any one of Muarim/Brom/Ilyana).

I still insist relying on supports isn't very realistic, especially since Zihark doesn't share move with any of those units.

[Lord Raven]

The point is that Rhys needs to be shielded at all times; Ilyana can hold her own far better than Rhys (not all that well but way better than Rhys) and Brom/Muarim are very durable as is.

[Radiant Dragon]

The point is that Rhys needs to be shielded at all times; Ilyana can hold her own far better than Rhys (not all that well but way better than Rhys) and Brom/Muarim are very durable as is.

They're both 2HKO'd, Ilyana simply isn't doubled by Myrmidons and Swordmasters until late game. I wouldn't call that 'far' better.

Besides, this doesn't address my point. She could be 10HKO'd and Zihark still won't share move with her (or Brom or Muarim).

[Lord Raven]

Except Ilyana has an evade advantage and defense advantage (her HP is losing but her Def is 3 points greater on base and her affinity gives her defense).

Muarim has 1 more move than Zihark and Ilyana has 1 less move than Zihark. They'll be together for 2-3 turns assuming you're going max move every single turn. Ilyana having Shade at base doesn't hurt either, which is something she has over Rhys until Chapter 18 when Shade becomes available (so Chapter 19 when you can use it). Ilyana's better at being a front liner and using her supports than Rhys is for a long time, because she's the least likely to be attacked.

[Radiant Dragon]

Muarim has 2 more move than Zihark, 3 if Zihark is still unpromoted. And even if you manage to set it up exactly right so Zihark can have a support for the first turn or two each chapter, does the support even do anything worthwhile for him? Does the Defense let him take an extra hit from a significant amount of enemies? Just how much does the extra Avoid reduce his chance of death by?

Supports are nice and all, but they're not significant enough to have a meaningful impact on a unit's position.

[Lord Raven]

Supports are nice and all, but they're not significant enough to have a meaningful impact on a unit's position.

When two units are neck-in-neck... yes, it does.

[Radiant Dragon]

When two units are neck-in-neck... yes, it does.

Mia is obviously worse than Zihark due to lower HP/Str/Def without even mentioning supports.