FE9 Tier list v3

[Shadow Mir]

You forget that this problem isn't unique to Haar; We've got 4 fliers (and the Hawks), and only 1 Full Guard so 3 of them are going without. In fact, I'd say that Haar has an advantage over the other fliers in that he doesn't need the Full Guard as much as the others since his HP/Def is higher than theirs. Obviously this means he isn't blasting over the lake right away, but again we will only have one flier who can.

Well, I'll concede that.

[-Cynthia-]

That wasn't my argument. I'll explain with an analogy (the only other way I can think of to explain this point). Let's say we want to compare Oscar with Titania. These two units will be optimally given a different amount of Bexp. There is some amount of Bexp close to zero, TBexp, that Titania will optimally be given. There is some different amount of Bexp: OBexp, perhaps in the 300-700 range, that Oscar will optimally be given. There are two simple resource distributions that can be used for a Titania v Oscar comparison:

- The first is to compare Titania and Oscar assuming that they both get TBexp. This is not realistic, nor is it fair for Oscar. He helps his team more with OBexp. Unsurprisingly, Titania is better in this comparison.

- The second is to compare Titania and Oscar assuming that they both get OBexp. This is not realistic for Titania. It is also not fair to her, because our assumption was that the positive difference in Bexp between OBexp and TBexp would be more valuable to our team if given to some other unit(s). So by giving OBexp to her, we are weakening our team (compared to giving Titania TBexp). So, if Titania is better than Oscar in this comparison, which is stacked in his favor, than Titania is clearly more valuable (on net) than Oscar when both are given their optimal Bexp amounts.

Replace Haar with Titania and Geoffrey with Oscar and you've decoded my argument. By assuming both Haar and Geoffrey get Geoffrey's optimal amount of Bexp, I am stacking the deck in Geoffrey's favor. If Haar is still better with this comparison, he is more valuable. A Haar with no Bexp may not be better than a Geoffrey with GBexp (I haven't made this comparison, because it is unnecessary), but he is clearly more valuable (due to the Bexp he saves) assuming Haar with GBexp > Geoffrey with GBexp, which is the argument I've been making most recently.

This is kind of an important point: it extends beyond this specific debate. Am I explaining my point understandably?

If we're only giving Haar Geoffrey's amount of BEXP, how is Haar 20/16 when Geoffrey is 20/15? Unless you're impying that Haar gains a level a chapter from C23-C25, which I think is too much. He's not particularly underleveled, and he's likely competing with the other fliers for kills.

Also, the amount of "optimal" BEXP for both may actually be higher. Taking Geoffrey to 20/16 only costs us 643 Exp, which is less than we we get in Ch24 alone.

Also I fail to see how a comparison with Geoffrey getting BEXP and Haar not getting BEXP is unecessary. When we compare Boyd with a Speedwing to Oscar, we don't have to compare Oscar with a Speedwing to him or neither with a Speedwing. We can assume Boyd gets the Speedwing, then examine the "cost" to the rest of the team. I am saying that the "cost" of Geoffrey's BEXP isn't very high, because BEXP is cheap. Now the same amount of BEXP given to Haar is similarly cheap, but I think it's easy to see that Geoffrey has more to gain from the BEXP levels than Haar and indeed almost any other character we could choose (due to Paragon). We give resources where they have the most benefit, this is where your Soren/Tormod/Ilyana comparison went wonky as well.

Ulki has 8 mov, no canto, inferior durability, inferior offense, requires a Demi Band, and can't stay transformed forever; it is the very worst kind of flier utility. Haar is tied for the best movement (9 mov flying canto) with only four other units. He is the most durable among them (only Jill comes close). While his offense is inferior (though Marcia really struggles to 2HKO near endgame), that is not too important in a Rescue/Drop scenario.

I don't know why you keep saying supports are invalid for a rescue/drop scenario, since Marcia and Tanith support each other. But it's fairly irrelevant anyway, since Jill outclasses Haar in every parameter except like 4 HP at this point. Haar slightly edging her in HP and losing in Def/Res/offense is not "unique" utility.

Edited May 16, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

If we're only giving Haar Geoffrey's amount of BEXP, how is Haar 20/16 when Geoffrey is 20/15? Unless you're impying that Haar gains a level a chapter from C23-C25, which I think is too much. He's not particularly underleveled, and he's likely competing with the other fliers for kills.

Also, the amount of "optimal" BEXP for both may actually be higher. Taking Geoffrey to 20/16 only costs us 643 Exp, which is less than we we get in Ch24 alone.

Haar has free reinforcement Cexp in Chapter 23, all of Chapter 24, and actual movement to reach enemies in Chapter 25. Haar can easily be level 14 at Chapter 26 without any Bexp. Geoffrey will be lucky to be level 12 (if we deploy him at all in Chapter 25). If we give both ~500 Bexp, Haar will reach level 16 and Geoffrey will be between levels 15 and 16. I mostly selected those levels because they feature round numbers for a Strength comparison, but they're actually realistic upon consideration. That seemed like the optimal amount of Bexp for Geoffrey, because it lets him double all of the Paladins (assuming Knight Ward use).

I felt that I was being very realistic, but feel free to make your own comparison if you desire. Certainly comparing base Haar to 20/17 Geoffrey and ignoring that Haar still has an Atk lead due to Axes doesn't qualify as realistic in any way.

Also I fail to see how a comparison with Geoffrey getting BEXP and Haar not getting BEXP is unecessary.

It's only necessary if Haar with GBexp is not better than Geoffrey with GBexp.

When we compare Boyd with a Speedwing to Oscar, we don't have to compare Oscar with a Speedwing to him or neither with a Speedwing. We can assume Boyd gets the Speedwing, then examine the "cost" to the rest of the team.

That's one way to make the comparison. A more precise way to demonstrate that Oscar is more valuable than Boyd is to compare the two assuming both are given Boyd's optimal resources (Speedwing and BBexp). If Oscar is still better than Boyd under this comparison, he is more valuable and we need not involve ourselves in a more complicated comparison that involves opportunity costs to other teammates. It's a way to simplify the comparison and yet keep the comparison perfectly rigorous.

This doesn't always work. Consider Oscar vs Jill. If both are given Jill's optimal Bexp (~1000 before C17), Jill is better. If both are given Oscar's optimal Bexp (~500 before C17?), Oscar might very well be better, because Jill will be systematically under-leveled. In this case, we need to make the more complicated comparison that evaluates the opportunity cost of the ~500 Bexp difference between the two optimal Bexp amounts. This is not easy to do, and should, I suggest, be avoided whenever possible.

I am saying that the "cost" of Geoffrey's BEXP isn't very high, because BEXP is cheap. Now the same amount of BEXP given to Haar is similarly cheap, but I think it's easy to see that Geoffrey has more to gain from the BEXP levels than Haar and indeed almost any other character we could choose (due to Paragon). We give resources where they have the most benefit

I am perfectly aware of this. Giving Haar ~500 Bexp might not be optimal. Assuming he gets it nonetheless in my comparison is a tool to simplify the comparison while maintaining the rigor of the more realistic resources comparison (which is more complicated). I've stated this several times in several ways. I don't mind repeating myself because I believe this is an important point. If you believe that my mathematic argument is in some way amiss, please let me know and I will address such criticisms.

I don't know why you keep saying supports are invalid for a rescue/drop scenario, since Marcia and Tanith support each other. But it's fairly irrelevant anyway, since Jill outclasses Haar in every parameter except like 4 HP at this point. Haar slightly edging her in HP and losing in Def/Res/offense is not "unique" utility.

- With respect to Marcia and Tanith: I forgot. They might be able to maintain +10 evasion from their support in Chapter 25. I still don't think this results in reliable evasion for either unit, but I am open to being corrected.

- Are we assuming Jill is 20/13 in Chapter 23 then? That doesn't seem very realistic.

[Radiant Dragon]

Most of this discussion appears to me to be irrelevant. Is Geoffrey performance in Chapters 26 and 27 better than Haar's performance in Chapters 24, 25, 26, 27 and 28? If not, then why is Geoffrey over Haar?

[Caliban of Sycorax]

A 20/13 Jill is unrealistic, unless she's the party's only fighter from her promotion onward. Odds are she'll promote around the end of Chapter 16, or around Chapter 17-1 or 17-2. That's ~8 whole chapters, give or take (also depends on what you consider 17-3 and 17-4). It's not unrealistic to say Jill may nab most of those boss kills due to her superior movement and utility, but there's no way she can gain 1200 EXP unless she's uber-abused or pumped with BEXP.

However, it doesn't mean Jill has to be 20/13 to catch Haar.

LV: --/11

HP: 47

STR: 21

MAG: 8

SKL: 19

SPD: 17

LCK: 12

DEF: 20

RES: 10

LV: 8/--

HP: 24

STR: 11

MAG: 0

SKL: 10

SPD: 9

LCK: 6

DEF: 11

RES: 2

HP: 42.2 / 47

STR: 21.8 / 21

MAG: 7.6 / 8

SKL: 21.9 / 19

SPD: 20.9 / 17

LCK: 11.5 / 12

DEF: 20.7 / 20

RES: 9.6 / 10

So Haar wins in HP by a big 4.8, lolMagic by .4, loluck by .5, and Resistance by .4. Jill wins everything else, including A BIG 3.9 in speed. That's an extra 6-8 AVO that helps Jill. They should tie in Defense.

Tying in Defense + Better Avoid > Better HP, thus Jill's Durability > Haar's Durability at Haar's base.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Gaius Julius Caesar

[-Cynthia-]

I felt that I was being very realistic, but feel free to make your own comparison if you desire. Certainly comparing base Haar to 20/17 Geoffrey and ignoring that Haar still has an Atk lead due to Axes doesn't qualify as realistic in any way.

That was a slight exaggeration, though probably moreso than Haar having a level lead on Geoffrey.

I am perfectly aware of this. Giving Haar ~500 Bexp might not be optimal. Assuming he gets it nonetheless in my comparison is a tool to simplify the comparison while maintaining the rigor of the more realistic resources comparison (which is more complicated). I've stated this several times in several ways. I don't mind repeating myself because I believe this is an important point. If you believe that my mathematic argument is in some way amiss, please let me know and I will address such criticisms.

More simple yes, more accurate not necessarily, since you end up giving resources that the character doesn't want in the first place. It's not how comparisons have been done on this tier list before and for good reason. It makes more sense to consider who the second best candidate for the resource is, rather than tossing Oscar Speedwings and Titania BEXP. Your way might make more sense to you, but that's not how the list is run.

If that's cleared up, I'm going to suggest to leave this whole argument.

[Radiant Dragon]

If that's cleared up, I'm going to suggest to leave this whole argument.

I hope you're referring to Aku-Chi's statement, and not Haar > Geoffrey here.

[aku chi]

So Haar wins in HP by a big 4.8, lolMagic by .4, loluck by .5, and Resistance by .4. Jill wins everything else, including A BIG 3.9 in speed. That's an extra 6-8 AVO that helps Jill. They should tie in Defense.

Tying in Defense + Better Avoid > Better HP, thus Jill's Durability > Haar's Durability at Haar's base.

Is a 20/11 Jill realistic at C23? And is 5-8 Avo (don't forget about loluck) really better than 4-5 HP when neither is an avoid-tank?

More simple yes, more accurate not necessarily, since you end up giving resources that the character doesn't want in the first place. It's not how comparisons have been done on this tier list before and for good reason. It makes more sense to consider who the second best candidate for the resource is, rather than tossing Oscar Speedwings and Titania BEXP. Your way might make more sense to you, but that's not how the list is run.

I think this a really important point, so I'm going to give an explanation another attempt. I'm simply applying the transitive property to comparisons:

If:

A > B and

A' >= A

then:

A' > B

A > B is comparing Haar and Geoffrey both with Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle and concluding that Haar is better under these circumstances.

A' >= A is acknowledging that it might not be optimal to give Haar Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle, which implies that it would be more valuable to give it to someone else (A').

The conclusion is that Haar without Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle has a net value greater than Geoffrey with his optimal resource bundle.

Edit: I appeal to other viewers to let me know if this makes sense, if I'm failing to communicate my point, or if there is some obvious error I'm overlooking.

Edited May 16, 2011 by aku chi

[Narga_Rocks]

I think this a really important point, so I'm going to give an explanation another attempt. I'm simply applying the transitive property to comparisons:

If:

A > B and

A' >= A

then:

A' > B

A > B is comparing Haar and Geoffrey both with Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle and concluding that Haar is better under these circumstances.

A' >= A is acknowledging that it might not be optimal to give Haar Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle, which implies that it would be more valuable to give it to someone else (A').

The conclusion is that Haar without Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle has a net value greater than Geoffrey with his optimal resource bundle.

I believe Cynthia has attempted to explain that B > A. Basically, giving x bexp to Geoffrey and x bexp to Haar results in Geoffrey being better. This argument is mostly reliant on paragon making that x bexp take Geoffrey a lot further than it did Haar, and thus allowing significantly more doubling (especially since bexp levels have no reason not to involve KW use) and thus better performance despite the lack of flight.

Thus, she is arguing that B > A. Obviously, Haar with his optimal resource boundle, A', is > Haar with Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle, A.

However, B > A < A' says nothing about the comparison between B and A'.

And Radiant Dragon has indicated that all this A and B and A' stuff is irrelevant.

"Most of this discussion appears to me to be irrelevant. Is Geoffrey performance in Chapters 26 and 27 better than Haar's performance in Chapters 24, 25, 26, 27 and 28? If not, then why is Geoffrey over Haar?"

which takes us back to a direct comparison between B and A'. If you prefer comparing A and B, wherein both units are given the exact same amount of bexp, as you think that this is an easier comparison to perform, then go ahead. However, as Cynthia pointed out, the comparison in which Haar and Geoffrey are anywhere near the same level, let alone Haar having a level lead, when you give both the same amount of bexp, is flawed as it is rather unlikely. So, you can make the comparison between the two of them assuming whatever reasonable levels and bexp amounts you'd like, and then if you have then proven that A > B, fine.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[aku chi]

I believe Cynthia has attempted to explain that B > A. Basically, giving x bexp to Geoffrey and x bexp to Haar results in Geoffrey being better. This argument is mostly reliant on paragon making that x bexp take Geoffrey a lot further than it did Haar, and thus allowing significantly more doubling (especially since bexp levels have no reason not to involve KW use) and thus better performance despite the lack of flight.

If that's her intent, I'd like to see an actual argument. I've primarily seen critiques of my argument. While Geoffrey's superior Speed is an advantage (especially in C26), Haar's superior Strength is also a notable advantage, especially in the event that he has A Axes (through an Arms Scroll or training).

Thus, she is arguing that B > A. Obviously, Haar with his optimal resource boundle, A', is > Haar with Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle, A.

However, B > A < A' says nothing about the comparison between B and A'.

which takes us back to a direct comparison between B and A'. If you prefer comparing A and B, wherein both units are given the exact same amount of bexp, as you think that this is an easier comparison to perform, then go ahead. However, as Cynthia pointed out, the comparison in which Haar and Geoffrey are anywhere near the same level, let alone Haar having a level lead, when you give both the same amount of bexp, is flawed as it is rather unlikely. So, you can make the comparison between the two of them assuming whatever reasonable levels and bexp amounts you'd like, and then if you have then proven that A > B, fine.

- You seem to have a firm understanding of my approach; I am glad.

- I don't believe the specifics of my argument are flawed, but I welcome counter-arguments.

And Radiant Dragon has indicated that all this A and B and A' stuff is irrelevant.

"Most of this discussion appears to me to be irrelevant. Is Geoffrey performance in Chapters 26 and 27 better than Haar's performance in Chapters 24, 25, 26, 27 and 28? If not, then why is Geoffrey over Haar?"

I agree with Radiant Dragon. Even if Geoffrey is slightly more valuable in Chapters 26, 27, and Endgame (which I'm currently only satisfied is the case in Chapter 26), Haar is substantially more valuable in Chapters 24, 25, and 28.

I continued with the discussion as long as I did, because I believe that my argument approach is relevant to future unit comparisons, so I wanted to make sure it was sound and understandable.

[Radiant Dragon]

I agree with Radiant Dragon. Even if Geoffrey is slightly more valuable in Chapters 26, 27, and Endgame (which I'm currently only satisfied is the case in Chapter 26), Haar is substantially more valuable in Chapters 24, 25, and 28.

Geoffrey can be more valuable in 27, since flying utility isn't very important (is there anything that can be flown over here?) and Geoffrey's higher speed lets him double more enemies without Brave weapons.

As for Endgame, I'm not sure. Neither do outstandingly well against many of the enemies, although Geoffrey can double more of them. Haar however, has the option of flying over the many obstacles in the map, and does better against enemies neither can double. I'd argue that Endgame isn't a big deal either way, though.

I continued with the discussion as long as I did, because I believe that my argument approach is relevant to future unit comparisons, so I wanted to make sure it was sound and understandable.

Well, the main problem I see with your argument is that while you compare Haar with and without Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle to Geoffrey with Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle, you never mention Haar with his own optimal resource bundle, which is different from Geoffrey's.

[aku chi]

Geoffrey can be more valuable in 27, since flying utility isn't very important (is there anything that can be flown over here?) and Geoffrey's higher speed lets him double more enemies without Brave weapons.

Except that there are no Paladins here, so the enemy types that Geoffrey doubles that Haar doesn't just includes a few Cats, Tigers, Thieves, and Snipers (about 10 enemies total). Meanwhile, there are a lot of Generals in chokepoints that Geoffrey cannot 2HKO that Haar can. Plus, Haar can ORKO more enemies at 2-range.

As for Endgame, I'm not sure. Neither do outstandingly well against many of the enemies, although Geoffrey can double more of them. Haar however, has the option of flying over the many obstacles in the map, and does better against enemies neither can double. I'd argue that Endgame isn't a big deal either way, though.

Agreed.

Well, the main problem I see with your argument is that while you compare Haar with and without Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle to Geoffrey with Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle, you never mention Haar with his own optimal resource bundle, which is different from Geoffrey's.

- I did spend some time talking about what Haar can do with the Brave weapons and what he can do with an Arms Scroll, which I suppose are a part of Haar's optimal resource bundle.

- But such discussion isn't necessary for this comparison (even if it is useful otherwise) in the event that Haar is more valuable than Geoffrey when they both receive Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle (as per the transitive property detailed several times in my previous posts).

[Radiant Dragon]

Except that there are no Paladins here, so the enemy types that Geoffrey doubles that Haar doesn't just includes a few Cats, Tigers, Thieves, and Snipers (about 10 enemies total). Meanwhile, there are a lot of Generals in chokepoints that Geoffrey cannot 2HKO that Haar can. Plus, Haar can ORKO more enemies at 2-range.

Doesn't Geoffrey double the Halberdiers as well?

- But such discussion isn't necessary for this comparison (even if it is useful otherwise) in the event that Haar is more valuable than Geoffrey when they both receive Geoffrey's optimal resource bundle (as per the transitive property detailed several times in my previous posts).

But why would we give Haar Geoffrey's resource bundle? It may make comparisons 'easier', but it's unrealistic and so means little.

[aku chi]

Doesn't Geoffrey double the Halberdiers as well?

Sure. But Haar can double them all with 19 AS (apparently he can double all of the Snipers here with 19 AS, too). 19 AS is certainly possible for Haar (he averages above 19 Speed at level 17), though it's true that he might miss that. 18 Speed (pretty much guaranteed for Haar by C27) just misses out on two Halberdiers and one Sniper.

But why would we give Haar Geoffrey's resource bundle? It may make comparisons 'easier', but it's unrealistic and so means little.

It's unrealistic but it means much. It is entirely sufficient to demonstrate that Haar is more valuable than Geoffrey when each is given their optimal resource bundles. I've made several different attempts to explain this logic; I'm at a loss for how to explain it in another way.

[Radiant Dragon]

It's unrealistic but it means much. It is entirely sufficient to demonstrate that Haar is more valuable than Geoffrey when each is given their optimal resource bundles. I've made several different attempts to explain this logic; I'm at a loss for how to explain it in another way.

But you're not giving Haar his optimal resource bundle, you're giving him Geoffrey's.

[Anouleth]

I know this is highly unlike me, but I don't really care about the details any more. Can Haar just go above Geoffrey already? I don't think any advantage that he has is comparable to Haar kicking ass and taking names in C24 and C25.

[Narga_Rocks]

But you're not giving Haar his optimal resource bundle, you're giving him Geoffrey's.

But that only becomes a problem if Haar (with *G) is inferior to Geoffrey (with *G). Which, of course, Cynthia is arguing and I don't care enough to think about who is right here.

If, however, Haar*G > Geoffrey*G, then it would be obvious that Haar*H > Geoffrey*G, as

Haar*H >= Haar*G by the very definition of optimal bundle. If Haar*H < Haar*G, then clearly *H is not Haar's optimal bundle, as he performs better with *G.

Thus, since Haar*H >= Haar*G, and if Haar*G is indeed > Geoffrey*G, this would be sufficient to show that Haar*H > Geoffrey*G.

The hang up here, of course, is the consideration of Haar*G vs Geoffrey*G.

Of course, I make no comment on whether it is easier to compare Haar*G to Geoffrey*G or Haar*H to Geoffrey*G. I don't see why we can't just make the comparison where each gets what is best for himself and then consider the overall performance of both with their optimal bundle, as long as we don't forget to include the opportunity cost inherent in each one taking their optimal bundle when we consider this "overall" performance.

[-Cynthia-]

Put Haar above Geoffrey for now, though I agree that giving characters resources that do not help them doesn't help comparisons much. Give each character resources that help them, but consider opportunity costs.

Edited May 21, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

Hmm... Muarim >> Lethe perplexes me.

- Lethe has 6 chapters extra availability, all of which she is useful in.

- Lethe has a turn 1 transformation, so she has 4-5 turns of full strength combat guaranteed. There are only a few chapters that last long enough for Lethe untransforming or requiring the Demi Band to be relevant. Muarim needs the Demi Band to be a useful combat unit. His use deprives some other candidate (notably Mordecai or Ranulf) of the Demi Band.

- Lethe and Muarim have comparable shove/rescue utility. Transformed Lethe can shove every beorc unit except Haar. Muarim can shove Haar, but needs to be transformed to do so (and he can only shove ~1/2 of the mounted units untransformed). Both can rescue/carry all of the non-mounted beorc.

- Taking into consideration Muarim's Demi Band penalties, Lethe and Muarim have very similar stats in their shared chapters.

Consider a moment near Muarim's joining (perhaps 17-1):

Level 7 Lethe

39.2 HP, 14 + 6 Str, 12.6 + 4 Skl, 14.8 + 3 Spd, 17 Lck, 10.6 + 5 Def, 8 + 3 Res

Level 9 Muarim

45 HP, 16 + 4 Str, 13 + 2 Skl, 15 + 2 Spd, 11 Lck, 12 + 2 Def, 5 + 2 Res

Muarim has a +1 Mt lead over Lethe. Lethe has slightly higher Speed (18 AS is needed to double all of the Myrmidon reinforcements in 17-1). Both are sufficiently durable: Muarim has an HP lead, but Lethe has an avoid, Defense, and Resistance lead.

Let us take a look at the pair near endgame to see how their growths affect things:

Level 18 Lethe

53.5 HP, 19.5 + 6 Str, 19.75 + 4 Skl, 22.5 + 3 Spd, 22.5 Lck, 15 + 5 Def, 10.75 + 3 Res

Level 19 Muarim

59.5 HP, 23 + 4 Str, 20 + 2 Skl, 20.5 + 2 Spd, 14.5 Lck, 18 + 2 Def, 9.5 + 2 Res

Defensively, the situation is mostly unchanged. Both have supports that help their durability, and both are sufficiently durable. Muarim has extended his attack lead a smidgen, but a single Energy Drop for Lethe can almost completely negate Muarim's attack advantage throughout the game (1 Energy Drop is probably less costly than Muarim's Demi Band monopoly). Lethe, meanwhile, has extended her Speed lead. She can consistently double even the fastest enemies throughout the game, whereas Muarim occasionally fails to do so. She's also a slightly better Adept candidate (both want it to turn their many 3HKOs into ORKOs, but Lethe has a little more Skill and doubles everything).

So, I'm confused. What advantages does Muarim have to compensate for Lethe's substantial availability lead?

[Radiant Dragon]

Lethe can not shove/smite Male Paladins or Wyvern Lords, while Muarim can. I don't believe that's enough to say Muarim > Lethe, though.

[aku chi]

Lethe can not shove/smite Male Paladins or Wyvern Lords, while Muarim can. I don't believe that's enough to say Muarim > Lethe, though.

Unless the information on SF is incorrect, Lethe has 21 + 15 transformed Wt, enough to shove/smite all of the Paladins and Jill.

[Radiant Dragon]

Unless the information on SF is incorrect, Lethe has 21 + 15 transformed Wt, enough to shove/smite all of the Paladins and Jill.

I've tried shoving Makalov and Geoffrey with Lethe and she can not, so I can only assume it is incorrect.

Gauge does hurt Lethe, though. Off the top of my head, Chapters 13, 16, 17-3, 18, 21, 23, and maybe 25 are all chapters long enough where she'll untransform before the end. In addition, the enemy density in 26 and 27 may force her to untransform as well.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't think it is actually wrong. It just doesn't give you all the information.

I'm pretty sure her wt goes from 21 to 31, despite the 15 point improvement that SF indicates for her con. It's quite possible that her con does indeed go up by 15 and that SF is correct.

In any case, I'm pretty certain she ends up at 31 and can't shove a bundle of units.

[Kinata]

She has 33 wt when transformed. That's good enough for most situations (I think the only things she can't shove are other laguz and wyvern lords).

[Narga_Rocks]

So it turns her 21 wt into 33? That's a really weird number for them to pick, +12. Whatever.

Oh, you sure that isn't just what she has with a statue frag? Did you load your game to a point after you get the frag?