FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

I can't say I've actually executed this strategy before and I guess I didn't think it through enough. I thought Tanith would take a beating from the Wyvern Knights on turn 1 just getting close enough to the arrive square, but I guess she would be in Heal range at that point, so Physic wouldn't be needed. Physic might still be useful if you didn't execute this particular strategy for whatever reason (maybe you don't have a second flier durable enough or aren't deploying Calill or Tanith for some reason).

Even a base level Janaff is probably durable enough to Arrive. I have no idea why a player would refuse to use Calill or Janaff to accomplish this, either. Ordinarily, I understand why certain strategies that rely on having particular units trained, or at a certain level of performance are not assumed, but since this is feasible even with base level units, I don't see why it shouldn't be assumed.

[Radiant Dragon]

Will someone please explain to me why it's a good idea to waste a Master Seal by early promoting a Mage?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You haven't addressed my point about how Soren and Ilyana have taken much more in the way of resources than Tormod. It's incorrect to imply that Soren/Ilyana can naturally reach promotion by Chapter 16 without having a negative impact on the rest of the team (by taking a disproportionate amount of BEXP very early on or whatever). Even for a baller like Marcia, 20/6 requires her to take a huge amount of BEXP.

Yes I have, and I still don't get why you all are insisting Soren/Ilyana are actually taking more resources than Tormod. I thought it was pretty goddamned obvious Tormod is the one underleveled here.

Lets theorycraft, shall we? Let there be some 9 move Paladin that begins two spaces in front of Tormod. Every turn, the Paladin moves 9 spaces and extends the gap between him and Tormod by 1. Tormod will not be unable to heal the Paladin until turn 8, when the gap between him and the Paladin is 9 squares, even in this theoretical construct where the Paladin never needs to slow down for any reason and Tormod can never take a spare Vigor from Reyson and for some reason we haven't beaten the map already. In contrast, a regular Sage would stop being able to heal the Paladin on turn 3, when the gap between them would be 8 squares.

If you're arguing for healing, all you need is C staves, which Soren/Ilyana have earlier.

I do not understand how Tormod needs to be durable enough to take the front. Normally, he can take one or two rounds of combat without dying anyway. I don't hear any complaints about Mist or Reyson's durability, and they have much the same role (a sort of midliner that needs to be close to frontliners to do their job).

Again, I'm talking combat here. Physic erases the point of +2 mov.

[Sol Hiryu]

Will someone please explain to me why it's a good idea to waste a Master Seal by early promoting a Mage?

Why not? Out of everyone you have up until you get your first Master Seal, no one really wants it other than your mages and maybe Mist or Rhys. Mist wants to wait until she has better levels before promoting, and Rhys doesn't really gain anything significant from one anyway, so promoting a mage will give you the benefits of getting another staffer, and the opportunity to raise staff rank.

If we hold out for Tormod to do the same thing, we have to hold a Master Seal and some BEXP from when we get it all the way until he joins, when we could have had Soren/Ilyana doing it beforehand.

[Florete]

Why do we need the extra staff users? By the time they are reasonably ready to promote, healing really isn't that useful past what you get from Mist and/or Rhys. Later on, what you'll really need is stuff like Restore, but I'd rather just have my Mages Fight.

[Radiant Dragon]

Why not? Out of everyone you have up until you get your first Master Seal, no one really wants it other than your mages and maybe Mist or Rhys. Mist wants to wait until she has better levels before promoting, and Rhys doesn't really gain anything significant from one anyway, so promoting a mage will give you the benefits of getting another staffer, and the opportunity to raise staff rank.

Why would we need 3 staffers that early? Hell, when would we need 3 staffers ever? We could early promote a Mage to have a redundant staffer, or promote Mist/Rhys and have a better staffer.

Also, how can you say it's fine for the Mages to neuter their stats by promoting early, then say Mist wants to wait in the next sentence? Rhys does gain something significant from promoting: The ability to attack, increased AS, and more move.

[Shadow Mir]

Why would we need 3 staffers that early? Hell, when would we need 3 staffers ever? We could early promote a Mage to have a redundant staffer, or promote Mist/Rhys and have a better staffer.

Also, how can you say it's fine for the Mages to neuter their stats by promoting early, then say Mist wants to wait in the next sentence? Rhys does gain something significant from promoting: The ability to attack, increased AS, and more move.

WRT Rhys, light magic isn't available until chapter 13 (correct me if I'm wrong), and with his AS issues, combined with how terrible light magic is...

[Radiant Dragon]

WRT Rhys, light magic isn't available until chapter 13 (correct me if I'm wrong), and with his AS issues, combined with how terrible light magic is...

Well, Rhys would need a forge to not lose AS... Still, an early promoted Mage/Staffer should not be getting attacked at all. The point I'm trying to make is that it's ridiculous to claim Soren/Ilyana > Tormod solely because they could heal in chapters 11-15.

[Florete]

WRT Rhys, light magic isn't available until chapter 13 (correct me if I'm wrong), and with his AS issues, combined with how terrible light magic is...

Rhys has pretty high Magic and most enemies have fairly low Res. It is true that he'll probably never double reliably, but more combat > more staff use on the team in every case I can think of.

[-Cynthia-]

If we Master Seal Soren or Ilyana, we can field them as the staff unit rather than Rhys (or Mist). Sure we could give Rhys crappy or non-existent combat...but why bother? Staff rank doesn't really help until later in the game, when we have a Physic and might need to Restore occassionally.

For reference (no forged light tome because they cost a ridiculous amount):

10/1 Rhys (nothing/Light)

27 HP 0/18 Mt 8/10 AS 4 Def 20 Res

10/1 Soren (Thunder/forged thunder)

26 HP 16/21 Mt 13/14 AS 5 Def 14 Res

10/1 Ilyana (Thunder/forged thunder)

26 HP 15/20 Mt 12/12 AS 6 Def 14 Res

Didn't feel like adding supports into the mix, though they probably help out Soren and Ilyana more, as they don't remove Rhys's Spd and tome weight issues. I usually agree with more combat>more staff use, but I see no reason to even keep Rhys on the team once we get a Master Seal.

Soren/Ilyana don't necessarily need to heal every turn, especially if we're also fielding Mist for healing purposes (left Mist out of previous comparison because she gets horse on promo which gives her other bonuses). Having a unit with better combat+healing>a unit with worse combat and healing.

Edited May 7, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

I'd sooner say you should just drop Rhys when healing is in less demand, which is probably around the time everyone is promoting. Let your Sages level up so they at least remain good at combat when staff use is irrelevant.

[Radiant Dragon]

And I still insist early-promoting a Mage/Rhys is a waste (Mist gets a horse, so early-promoting her is a little more understandable), and has little to do with the topic at hand.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't really see why we should carry Rhys through 10-16 or so myself. PoR is unlike other FEs in that promoted staff units get as much exp for healing/etc as unpromoted units, so the drop in Exp for Soren/Ilyana isn't all that much.

Edited May 7, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

I don't really see why we should carry Rhys through 10-16 or so myself. PoR is unlike other FEs in that promoted staff units get as much exp for healing/etc as unpromoted units, so the drop in Exp for Soren/Ilyana isn't all that much.

The problem is that there isn't much healing to be done in the first place, and what exists you want to give to Mist before the Sages anyway.

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't really see why we should carry Rhys through 10-16 or so myself. PoR is unlike other FEs in that promoted staff units get as much exp for healing/etc as unpromoted units, so the drop in Exp for Soren/Ilyana isn't all that much.

By letting Rhys heal, we don't have to waste a Seal on one of the Mages, letting us use it on a unit that's actually going to help us complete chapters or sell it.

[-Cynthia-]

By letting Rhys heal, we don't have to waste a Seal on one of the Mages, letting us use it on a unit that's actually going to help us complete chapters or sell it.

Who is a better candidate for the Seal? I suppose it gives some temporary statboosts, but given the amount of BEXP we have we might as well pump units to 20/1. Sealing, say Marcia, early seems to have little benefit over just letting her get CEXP/giving her BEXP. The reason early promoting Mages has more use is because they don't need to cut their Exp gain like most other units.

@Red Fox Defend the statement that if we have any heals they should go to Mist. Why is this the case?

[Radiant Dragon]

Who is a better candidate for the Seal? I suppose it gives some temporary statboosts, but given the amount of BEXP we have we might as well pump units to 20/1. Sealing, say Marcia, early seems to have little benefit over just letting her get CEXP/giving her BEXP. The reason early promoting Mages has more use is because they don't need to cut their Exp gain like most other units.

I was thinking along the lines of using it at level 20, saving a little BEXP. Not to mention they sell for a good amount, although we get 20,000 at the start of Chapter 10 so that's not a big deal.

However, 1: An early promoted Mage cares little about EXP gain, outside of Staff EXP. 2: How is this relevant to Tormod > Soren/Ilyana, unless you're going to suggest they should be above him solely because they have more time to build staff rank?

[-Cynthia-]

It's a way for the mages to have better contributions while Tormod isn't around. Note that this list tends to favor availability pretty highly. For example, Zihark probably isn't as good as Geoffrey once Geoffrey shows up (Geoffrey has more Mov, 1-2 range, etc.), but Zihark is higher because he has more chapters where he can contribute, even if he isn't necessarily the best unit for those chapters.

[Radiant Dragon]

It's a way for the mages to have better contributions while Tormod isn't around. Note that this list tends to favor availability pretty highly. For example, Zihark probably isn't as good as Geoffrey once Geoffrey shows up (Geoffrey has more Mov, 1-2 range, etc.), but Zihark is higher because he has more chapters where he can contribute, even if he isn't necessarily the best unit for those chapters.

Rolf for High tier then. After all, he has more chapters where he can contribute than Astrid, Makalov etc., even if he isn't the best unit in those chapters. ...You do realize Geoffrey only has 2 chapters where he can really contribute, right?

Tormod doesn't join in Chapter 25; he joins in Chapter 16. I'll ask it again: What are Soren/Ilyana doing before Chapter 16 to make up for the fact that Tormod's better once he joins?

[Florete]

@Red Fox Defend the statement that if we have any heals they should go to Mist. Why is this the case?

Obviously because she gets the most of it. An early promoted Sage isn't going much of anywhere with the experience and Rhys will never be as good as Mist when it comes to promotion.

[-Cynthia-]

Rolf for High tier then. After all, he has more chapters where he can contribute than Astrid, Makalov etc., even if he isn't the best unit in those chapters. ...You do realize Geoffrey only has 2 chapters where he can really contribute, right?

Tormod doesn't join in Chapter 25; he joins in Chapter 16. I'll ask it again: What are Soren/Ilyana doing before Chapter 16 to make up for the fact that Tormod's better once he joins?

Note that Rolf is above Ulki/Nasir etc.

The difference is that Tormod is not that much better than Soren/Ilyana upon joining. His stats are about the same, if given a truckload of BEXP. He has 2 more Mov, but this is still less than fliers/paladins and he cannot charge forward as much due to his low durability. 2 Mov may make him better, but does it make him that much better?

You keep making statements along the lines of "Well this what I think, so this should be the case." ahu chi did a comparison of all the mages

performance throughout the entire game. Try to show something here, so far I'm not convinced.

[Radiant Dragon]

The difference is that Tormod is not that much better than Soren/Ilyana upon joining. His stats are about the same, if given a truckload of BEXP. He has 2 more Mov, but this is still less than fliers/paladins and he cannot charge forward as much due to his low durability. 2 Mov may make him better, but does it make him that much better?

Soren/Ilyana vs. Tormod is contributing and needing slightly less BEXP earlier vs. having better mobility and slightly better AS later. Is there truly a 'right' answer as to which is better? They both come with their own advantages and disadvantages, after all. They're close enough that Tormod doesn't deserve to be in a lower tier.

You keep making statements along the lines of "Well this what I think, so this should be the case." ahu chi did a comparison of all the mages performance throughout the entire game. Try to show something here, so far I'm not convinced.

Did this come from me saying that running out of BEXP isn't going to happen? Because that's not what I think, that's fact.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[-Cynthia-]

All right, put Tormod above Rhys for now.

[Anouleth]

I agree with what RFoF is saying, by the way. Staffbot Tormod/Ilyana/Soren are kind of wastes of time when the best healer post-promotion is clearly Mist.

Yes I have, and I still don't get why you all are insisting Soren/Ilyana are actually taking more resources than Tormod. I thought it was pretty goddamned obvious Tormod is the one underleveled here.

No, you haven't. Soren and Ilyana are NOT going to reach level 20/1 by the time Tormod appears without being fed tons of BEXP and tons of kills. Resources are not 'free' just because the other guy isn't around yet. If you do that, then Soren/Ilyana's team as a whole will be weaker because they took a very large volume of EXP away from other units.

We don't pull this kind of stupid logic when we compare Astrid or Makalov or even Jill to other units. The tier list absolutely recognises tha

If you're arguing for healing, all you need is C staves, which Soren/Ilyana have earlier.

Again, I'm talking combat here. Physic erases the point of +2 mov.

Yeah, because in an environment where Paladins are racing forward at full move every single turn, we are really going to bother stealing a fucking Physic staff so some 6 move scrub can actually be useful.

Note that Rolf is above Ulki/Nasir etc.

I'd be hard pressed to claim that Ulki and Nasir are better even than Rolf for the time they both exist, so it's not that great an analogy. I'd think that Kieran and Boyd is a better analogy.

The difference is that Tormod is not that much better than Soren/Ilyana upon joining. His stats are about the same, if given a truckload of BEXP. He has 2 more Mov, but this is still less than fliers/paladins and he cannot charge forward as much due to his low durability. 2 Mov may make him better, but does it make him that much better?

The fact is, that Soren and Ilyana still need their own BEXP and they need to be fed plenty of kills in order to get anywhere of note. They also take CEXP away from other units. The net effect is probably that Tormod is as much of a 'drain' on the rest of the team in terms of EXP as Soren or Ilyana are. I'm perfectly happy to do a playthrough where this is tested and shown.

[Zkirsche]

Rolf for High tier then. After all, he has more chapters where he can contribute than Astrid, Makalov etc., even if he isn't the best unit in those chapters. ...You do realize Geoffrey only has 2 chapters where he can really contribute, right?

I hope you realise that Tormod vs Soren is nowhere near the wipeout that is Rofl vs Astrid, especially since Astrid joins ~3 chapters after rofl whereas Tormod joins 11 after Soren (both excluding chapter 10). That alone is ignoring the fact that Astrid >>>>>>>>>>> Rofl, and that Tormod is NOT >>>>>>>>>>>>> Soren.

And I agree that geoffrey is too high.