FE9 Tier list v3

[Shadow Mir]

1) Haar won't be in Ballista range for more than one turn, and I believe that he can avoid it entirely if he flies along the edges.

2) Haar can be Physic'd while en route.

3) Why not give the rescue-dropper the Full Guard?

Most Importantly) What flyer has better durability?

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but wouldn't Gromell start moving after you get high enough even if you're not in his attack range? Because that's a concern that'd have to be addressed.

[Radiant Dragon]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but wouldn't Gromell start moving after you get high enough even if you're not in his attack range? Because that's a concern that'd have to be addressed.

I don't know, it's possible. I always move into his range turn 1 and finish him off the following turn.

[-Cynthia-]

People were unhappy with Sothe and Volke's old position above Rhys/Tormod, so apparently they are valued more than the Boots/C13.

Looking at Devdan, he might be slightly overrated. Comparing them in C18, giving Devdan ~2 levels, Janaff is beating him offensively by about 7-8 AS, beats Steel Lance!Devdan by about 2 Atk. Granted, Janaff's offense isn't very good here, he can only ORKO the magic units and the archer. Devdan can score a few more ORKOs with a forge, but deals a lot less to the units which he doesn't double, which is a fair amount of the map.

Maybe moving Devdan below Janaff would be the best here.

Gromell moves to attack people in range, IIRC.

Edited April 27, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

I don't know, it's possible. I always move into his range turn 1 and finish him off the following turn.

Gromell moves to attack people in range, IIRC.

I know he'll move to attack if you're in range... Eh, I guess I'll figure it out myself since I happen to be on that chapter.

EDIT: Final verdict: He will move once a unit gets high enough. Which could potentially endanger a rescue-drop strategy.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[aku chi]

People were unhappy with Sothe and Volke's old position above Rhys/Tormod, so apparently they are valued more than the Boots/C13.

When has that been argued? I've heard a few vague "Volke (and Sothe) are too high" sentiments. And some of those claims came from people unaware that Chapter 13 can be finished early by nabbing all of the treasures. The only specific placement suggestion I saw was from Red Fox of Fire, suggesting that Tormod was more valuable than the thieves (a very difficult comparison, I think). Volke used to be next to Mist, no? Moving Volke down two tiers seems to be an over-reaction.

Looking at Devdan, he might be slightly overrated. Comparing them in C18, giving Devdan ~2 levels, Janaff is beating him offensively by about 7-8 AS, beats Steel Lance!Devdan by about 2 Atk. Granted, Janaff's offense isn't very good here, he can only ORKO the magic units and the archer. Devdan can score a few more ORKOs with a forge, but deals a lot less to the units which he doesn't double, which is a fair amount of the map.

Maybe moving Devdan below Janaff would be the best here.

Maybe so, but I want to point out a few things here:

1) 2 levels from Chapter 17 seems very low, especially considering that 17-3 has a guaranteed ten turns of self-improvement for the units we field. 3-4 levels sounds more reasonable, at which point Devdan matches Janaff's attack with a lowly Steel Lance. In actuality, Devdan can also be using a Steel Lance Forge, Killer Lance, Spear, Javelin Forge, Laguz Lance, Heavy Spear, Knight Killer, and probably a Silver Lance by now. Also, Luna is a low-cost option for Devdan to increase his offense (though he might need to wait until Chapter 22 for an unclaimed Occult).

2) Devdan's availability lead includes 17-1, a rout chapter in which it is easy for him to contribute.

3) Janaff does have to worry about untransforming in the longer chapters, including Chapter 18. I believe it was mentioned at some point that Janaff could double Ravens in Chapter 18 (which he can't at base, BTW). But even if he could, this would be meaningless, because he won't be transformed by the time he reaches them, without the Demi Band (which would place his doubling in jeopardy and make his attack even worse).

I know he'll move to attack if you're in range... Eh, I guess I'll figure it out myself since I happen to be on that chapter.

EDIT: Final verdict: He will move once a unit gets high enough. Which could potentially endanger a rescue-drop strategy.

Like Radiant Dragon, I always bait Gromell on turn 1 with another unit. But if you didn't want to do that, you could just use Ward on Haar (or your rescue-dropper of choice) to trivialize the damage from Gromell's magic weapon.

[Anouleth]

1) 2 levels from Chapter 17 seems very low, especially considering that 17-3 has a guaranteed ten turns of self-improvement for the units we field. 3-4 levels sounds more reasonable, at which point Devdan matches Janaff's attack with a lowly Steel Lance. In actuality, Devdan can also be using a Steel Lance Forge, Killer Lance, Spear, Javelin Forge, Laguz Lance, Heavy Spear, Knight Killer, and probably a Silver Lance by now. Also, Luna is a low-cost option for Devdan to increase his offense (though he might need to wait until Chapter 22 for an unclaimed Occult).

3 or 4 levels seems way too generous. Devdan's exp gain is slow as molasses since he's about 10 levels higher than the enemies he faces (and also that most of 17 can be skipped through very quickly). How many enemies is needed for three levels when he gets 10 EXP a kill? Way more than Devdan's fair share, that's for sure.

Is there really much competition for Occult? I mean, the only other skill I really care about is Sol, and generally, I think that the slightly better offense on Devdan is more worthwhile than slightly better durability on some Paladin that is probably never going to be at risk of death anyway.

Like Radiant Dragon, I always bait Gromell on turn 1 with another unit. But if you didn't want to do that, you could just use Ward on Haar (or your rescue-dropper of choice) to trivialize the damage from Gromell's magic weapon.

Well, Gromell still has 2 crit on Haar when in Resolve mode, so there is some chance Gromell would leave Haar on low enough HP that he can't safely rescue-drop. But I think that Haar can take care of himself, even if Tanith is a better choice to deal with Gromell due to higher SPD/LUK/RES and access to the Sonic Sword.

[Florete]

When has that been argued? I've heard a few vague "Volke (and Sothe) are too high" sentiments. And some of those claims came from people unaware that Chapter 13 can be finished early by nabbing all of the treasures. The only specific placement suggestion I saw was from Red Fox of Fire, suggesting that Tormod was more valuable than the thieves (a very difficult comparison, I think). Volke used to be next to Mist, no? Moving Volke down two tiers seems to be an over-reaction.

The chapter 13 thing has been known for a while, and there was a discussion about it in regard to the Thieves' positions just a page or two back. This is not an overreaction, it's a reaction to realizing just what little value Thieving utility actually has in this game.

[Radiant Dragon]

Zihark

Soren

Mia

Stefan

Ilyana

I'm finding this a little odd. What is Zihark doing to be better than Soren that Mia and Stefan aren't?

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I don't see how Astrid is above Makalov, she joins only one chapter earlier and nine levels lower and is locked to lolbows until promotion when there are rarely enemies that she can counter (plus she gets ORKOed from most of the enemies in her join chapter), at least Makalov has an enemy phase and won't die instantly.

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't see how Astrid is above Makalov, she joins only one chapter earlier and nine levels lower and is locked to lolbows until promotion when there are rarely enemies that she can counter (plus she gets ORKOed from most of the enemies in her join chapter), at least Makalov has an enemy phase and won't die instantly.

Paragon, I'd assume. Although I could see them switching places.

[aku chi]

I don't see how Astrid is above Makalov, she joins only one chapter earlier and nine levels lower and is locked to lolbows until promotion when there are rarely enemies that she can counter (plus she gets ORKOed from most of the enemies in her join chapter), at least Makalov has an enemy phase and won't die instantly.

My thoughts:

- Bows actually help Astrid avoid counter-attacks, which, along with canto, lets her at least chip every turn.

- Un-promoted Makalov actually has more trouble getting Cexp, because he will eat counters and his durability is poor; too poor to take advantage of enemy phase.

- Astrid has Paragon, so she can quickly take the level lead over Makalov assuming similar resources.

In reality, both units need a fairly large Bexp dump to escape their tier 1 mediocrity. Once Promoted, Astrid is better early thanks to a Paragon-fueled level lead, but Makalov is better later when the level lead diminishes and his superior Strength becomes noticeable.

[Anouleth]

My thoughts:

- Bows actually help Astrid avoid counter-attacks, which, along with canto, lets her at least chip every turn.

- Un-promoted Makalov actually has more trouble getting Cexp, because he will eat counters and his durability is poor; too poor to take advantage of enemy phase.

- Astrid has Paragon, so she can quickly take the level lead over Makalov assuming similar resources.

In reality, both units need a fairly large Bexp dump to escape their tier 1 mediocrity. Once Promoted, Astrid is better early thanks to a Paragon-fueled level lead, but Makalov is better later when the level lead diminishes and his superior Strength becomes noticeable.

Astrid and Makalov will promote at roughly the same time anyway. Makalov doesn't have particularly poor durability unpromoted even if you're relatively stingy with BEXP, for example, a level 15 Makalov is only 5HKOed by the Iron Blade Myrmidon in Chapter 16, and most of the Myrms are actually weaker than that. The Knights are about a 5HKO as well. And that's not considering that if we were really concerned about Makalov's durability, we can always give him the Knight Ward to hold.

[aku chi]

Astrid and Makalov will promote at roughly the same time anyway. Makalov doesn't have particularly poor durability unpromoted even if you're relatively stingy with BEXP, for example, a level 15 Makalov is only 5HKOed by the Iron Blade Myrmidon in Chapter 16, and most of the Myrms are actually weaker than that. The Knights are about a 5HKO as well. And that's not considering that if we were really concerned about Makalov's durability, we can always give him the Knight Ward to hold.

- Astrid and Makalov can promote around the same time. At which point Astrid will develop a level lead...

- That 5HKO is a little disingenuous, considering that if Makalov had 1 HP under his level 15 average, he would be 4HKO - which is pretty poor in this game. But you're right, I overestimated the danger of enemies to Makalov, especially if we consider giving Makalov the Knight Ward. So I guess Makalov can be given some enemy phase exposure, but that actually hurts our efforts, because Makalov cannot 1RKO without a large Bexp dump (at which point he would be near promotion).

I can't chalk up Makalov's mediocre un-promoted performance as a win over Astrid's in good faith. Especially when it's optimal to Bexp dump to promote them as fast as possible (assuming you're already taken care of Jill and Marcia, if you're using them).

[-Cynthia-]

Astrid is really bad at base, but she only needs to be like that for one chapter. Level 1 mounted unit with Paragon is a good BEXP investment.

Zihark's durability grows to exceptional rates relative to Mia and Stefan due to Earth supports. That's the main difference between him and the other Myrms really.

Edited May 5, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

- Astrid and Makalov can promote around the same time. At which point Astrid will develop a level lead...

She can develop whatever she wants. Even a level 20/10 Astrid fails to have any convincing leads over a 20/6 Makalov. Obviously, she is leading in skill, which isn't that important when forges exist and enemies have low avoid anyway, and she has a speed lead, which doesn't mean much either since the Knight Ward will ensure that both of them can double most enemy types, and she has a resistance lead which might be useful against the 2 dozen magic users remaining in the game, but nothing significant.

- That 5HKO is a little disingenuous, considering that if Makalov had 1 HP under his level 15 average, he would be 4HKO - which is pretty poor in this game.

In practice, if Makalov is screwed, we can just give him more BEXP, just as if he is blessed, we don't have to give him quite as much BEXP.

But you're right, I overestimated the danger of enemies to Makalov, especially if we consider giving Makalov the Knight Ward. So I guess Makalov can be given some enemy phase exposure, but that actually hurts our efforts, because Makalov cannot 1RKO without a large Bexp dump (at which point he would be near promotion).

Or just expose him to enemies that don't urgently need to be ORKOed. Like, basically 100% of the enemies in 17-2 and 17-3, or the enemies at the beginning of Chapter 16 (since the area is open, you can just move straight past them).

Zihark's durability grows to exceptional rates relative to Mia and Stefan due to Earth supports. That's the main difference between him and the other Myrms really.

I could talk all day and all night about how terrible Ilyana and Brom are, and I could even give an encore on how 9 move is so much more than 7 move. Zihark will not always have supports worth talking about, and even if he does, he either needs to chain himself to bad units, or chain a great unit to him. Even if it was the case that he didn't have to worry about finding a support, so what? He can keep his 15 avoid advantage over Mia, since Mia will generally end up critblicking 15% of enemies before they can hit her anyway.

I think what's more of an issue for Mia is that she has inferior strength, when Zihark is already pretty borderline on 2HKOing a lot of enemy types.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Black★Star

[Radiant Dragon]

Makalov will have more HP/Str/Def than Astrid, and enough speed to double enemies. His lowish skill may become a problem, but Secret Books have little competition if I recall correctly. However, Astrid does have Paragon, so she will probably need less BEXP in the long run (I'm not 100% on this, due to Astrid's initial level deficit) and in my opinion, Bows are better than Swords when you already have Axes.

Zihark's durability grows to exceptional rates relative to Mia and Stefan due to Earth supports. That's the main difference between him and the other Myrms really.

What I want to know is if the difference between Zihark and Mia is worth having Soren in between them.

Also, Calill is still below the Knights and Bastian is still below Ena. Is that simply because the list hasn't been updated, or is there still something keeping them where they are?

[Zkirsche]

Everyone loves Soren. That's why.

[Anouleth]

Makalov will have more HP/Str/Def than Astrid, and enough speed to double enemies. His lowish skill may become a problem, but Secret Books have little competition if I recall correctly. However, Astrid does have Paragon, so she will probably need less BEXP in the long run (I'm not 100% on this, due to Astrid's initial level deficit).

That was why I assumed Makalov gained 16 levels and Astrid 29.

[Radiant Dragon]

Everyone loves Soren. That's why.

Meh. I like Calill and Tormod more. In fact, I would like to see Tormod above Soren and Ilyana, since he's faster than them and Celerity is just that good, but I have a feeling I'm in the minority in that regard.

[Anouleth]

Meh. I like Calill and Tormod more. In fact, I would like to see Tormod above Soren and Ilyana, since he's faster than them and Celerity is just that good, but I have a feeling I'm in the minority in that regard.

I feel the same way. Although note that Tormod is not significantly faster than Soren, at lower levels, he's actually slightly slower. Tormod's higher strength is only really key for siege tomes, since Soren can generally 2HKO most enemies with Thunder and anything tougher just means he needs to switch to a forge.

[aku chi]

She can develop whatever she wants. Even a level 20/10 Astrid fails to have any convincing leads over a 20/6 Makalov. Obviously, she is leading in skill, which isn't that important when forges exist and enemies have low avoid anyway, and she has a speed lead, which doesn't mean much either since the Knight Ward will ensure that both of them can double most enemy types, and she has a resistance lead which might be useful against the 2 dozen magic users remaining in the game, but nothing significant.

The leads are small, but Astrid can double more Myrmidons/Swordmasters, and hit better with Laguz and Brave weapons. I could be convinced that Makalov's leads late-game are bigger than Astrid's leads mid-game. But are they significant? In support of Makalov, he can take a skill before Astrid, though not many are fitting. Maybe Provoke.

Or just expose him to enemies that don't urgently need to be ORKOed. Like, basically 100% of the enemies in 17-2 and 17-3, or the enemies at the beginning of Chapter 16 (since the area is open, you can just move straight past them).

Okay, so long as we recognize that un-promoted Makalov having an enemy phase doesn't help us complete chapters, it only helps him get a little more enemy exposure for self improvement. On the other side, Astrid never has to be healed, which is nice.

[Shadow Mir]

Everyone loves Soren. That's why.

Meh. I prefer Calill, much like Radiant Dragon.

[Radiant Dragon]

I feel the same way. Although note that Tormod is not significantly faster than Soren, at lower levels, he's actually slightly slower. Tormod's higher strength is only really key for siege tomes, since Soren can generally 2HKO most enemies with Thunder and anything tougher just means he needs to switch to a forge.

I was thinking more along the lines of being able to wield Elthunder without AS loss, but that's a good point.

[Zkirsche]

Meh. I like Calill and Tormod more. In fact, I would like to see Tormod above Soren and Ilyana, since he's faster than them and Celerity is just that good, but I have a feeling I'm in the minority in that regard.

Remember they have, like, double the availability, though. And better durability too, with Ilyana's def supports and Soren's avo support.

[-Cynthia-]

Soren and Ilyana have availability leads and more opportunity to build up staff rank. They can heal in some of the midgame chapters and also function as capable attackers, unlike Rhys or Mist.

Calill below the knights- She loses availability and durability (and share Mov, though more easily transportable). Arguments against Knights involved some sketchy non-KW levelups. If Gatrie/Brom can manage decent offense, then I'm not really seeing Calill above them (Brom's requirements for better offense are a little higher, since Gatrie has earlygame utility)

Bastian moved over Ena.