FE9 Tier list v3

[Florete]

There are also the thieves, though I have no idea where to move them to and I'm not quite convinced their current positions are so terrible.

What else is there to say? They just don't have much value. Important items can largely be gotten with Chest Keys and there combat is bad. Their use is very limited as has been gone over. For one thing, I'd say Tormod being a 7/8 move magic user with staves on promotion is definitely more useful than them.

[aku chi]

Regarding Marcia vs. Boyd, I would like to bring up two points:

1) Boyd is, by far, the best 1-2 range droppable unit until Chapter 28. Boyd has good Speed and excellent Strength, letting him double and 2HKO most foes with ranged Axes. Boyd can also develop sufficient, if unspectacular, durability to withstand a lot of enemy exposure. This is a huge help in rout maps. Early on, only Titania can reliably pull this off. Later on, Kieran, Jill, Makalov, and Oscar might also be able to pull this off, but they aren't rescue-drop candidates, and only Jill among them can fly. The next best 1-2 range droppable unit is Nephenee, who struggles to 2HKO at range. Marcia, even with a ton of Bexp, struggles to 2HKO at range and is a little more fragile, so she can't match Boyd's utility in rout maps.

2) Marcia has a lot of potential, but one musn't forget the enormous amount of Bexp Marcia needs to reach that potential. While she uses it well, this is Bexp that could go to other units (of which there are several great candidates). So it isn't accurate to simply compare Marcia's optimal performance with Boyd's optimal performance and discount the different resource needs they require to reach their optimal performance.

That being said, Marcia's utility might just be too great for Boyd's performance to beat.

But for those using draft experience to argue for Marcia above Kieran, or even Oscar, consider these two points:

1) The nature of the popular Serenes Forest draft rules will tend to undervalue Paladins, due to everybody getting to use Titania. Consider how different a draft would be if instead of Titania, everybody could use Jill. I can almost guarantee that Oscar, Kieran, and probably even Boyd, would be drafted over Marcia. Having two fliers (and a flier in Chapters 11 and 12) is not as valuable as having a lower maintenance 9-mov canto unit with noticeably better combat. And as for Boyd, and especially Oscar, their early-game contributions would be considerably more important without Titania.

2) Drafts in general will tend to encourage resource concentration, so in a draft situation, Marcia getting >1000 Bexp doesn't have nearly the same opportunity cost as in a normal run. When all units are available, Jill, Astrid, and Makalov all greatly benefit from large Bexp dumps. So Marcia getting her Bexp dump is more costly than in a draft scenario where you're likely to be using 0-1 of those other units.

What else is there to say? They just don't have much value. Important items can largely be gotten with Chest Keys and there combat is bad. Their use is very limited as has been gone over. For one thing, I'd say Tormod being a 7/8 move magic user with staves on promotion is definitely more useful than them.

Eh, Tormod's stave use is pretty poor due to weapon levels. C Staves for Restore in Chapter 21 or even Physic in Chapter 25 is unlikely, and B Staves for Rescue is pretty much completely out of reach. A much better case could be made for Soren over Volke. Soren (and Ilyana) can get those crucial stave weapon ranks with an early promotion (via Master Seal or Bexp dump), and so has that utility plus (lackluster) siege tome use in addition to normal mage 1-2 range attacks before he gets left behind. Soren also has Chapter 15, where he can pull off a 3 turn clear (if trained enough), which is as good as it gets without Super Marcia.

Edited April 13, 2011 by aku chi

[dondon151]

1) Boyd is, by far, the best 1-2 range droppable unit until Chapter 28.

I wonder who is dropping Boyd?

1) The nature of the popular Serenes Forest draft rules will tend to undervalue Paladins, due to everybody getting to use Titania.

Titania is free in any normal playthrough.

2) Drafts in general will tend to encourage resource concentration,

Fire Emblem encourages resource concentration to get the best results.

I really think those 2 points you brought up emphasize the similarity between drafts and free play.

Edited April 13, 2011 by dondon151

[aku chi]

I wonder who is dropping Boyd?

Any scrub flier whose combat isn't good enough to get the job done themselves. This is only Marcia for the first half of the game (unless you haven't trained Jill enough to ORKO at range), but it can be any number of fliers (including the Hawks, if their lack of canto and -1 mov isn't an issue) in the latter half of the game. So Marcia shares her role as one of the best droppers, but Boyd stands alone as the best drop candidate until Chapter 28.

Titania is free in any normal playthrough.

But so is Jill...

Fire Emblem encourages resource concentration to get the best results.

True enough, but even in PoR, there isn't enough Bexp to dump >1000 on Marcia, Jill, Astrid, and Makalov (all good candidates) and still have some for other deserving units like Kieran.

I really think those 2 points you brought up emphasize the similarity between drafts and free play.

Maybe you should re-read them; there are relevant differences.

[Florete]

Eh, Tormod's stave use is pretty poor due to weapon levels. C Staves for Restore in Chapter 21 or even Physic in Chapter 25 is unlikely, and B Staves for Rescue is pretty much completely out of reach. A much better case could be made for Soren over Volke. Soren (and Ilyana) can get those crucial stave weapon ranks with an early promotion (via Master Seal or Bexp dump), and so has that utility plus (lackluster) siege tome use in addition to normal mage 1-2 range attacks before he gets left behind. Soren also has Chapter 15, where he can pull off a 3 turn clear (if trained enough), which is as good as it gets without Super Marcia.

You fail to mention how Volke is offering something better. This isn't Tormod vs. the other Sages.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Radiant Dragon]

1) Boyd is, by far, the best 1-2 range droppable unit until Chapter 28.

The Paladins, Jill and Marcia are all more than capable of ORKOing most enemies with forged Hand Axes (Javelins in Marcia's case). Boyd may be able to pull it off with regular Hand Axes, but then there's accuracy problems.

2) Marcia has a lot of potential, but one musn't forget the enormous amount of Bexp Marcia needs to reach that potential. While she uses it well, this is Bexp that could go to other units (of which there are several great candidates). So it isn't accurate to simply compare Marcia's optimal performance with Boyd's optimal performance and discount the different resource needs they require to reach their optimal performance.

That being said, Marcia's utility might just be too great for Boyd's performance to beat.

'Enormous' isn't the word I'd use. Marcia doesn't need any more BEXP than any other unit does (except the obvious Ike/Titania/Boyd/Oscar, and to a lesser extent Kieran) to hold her own and gain CEXP.

Consider how different a draft would be if instead of Titania, everybody could use Jill. I can almost guarantee that Oscar, Kieran, and probably even Boyd, would be drafted over Marcia. Having two fliers (and a flier in Chapters 11 and 12) is not as valuable as having a lower maintenance 9-mov canto unit with noticeably better combat.

This is wrong. Marcia is more than capable of ORKOing everything (except Generals, I suppose) in a draft all the way until chapter 28 or so. Flight puts her ahead of the other Paladins because 2 fliers > 1 flier.

2) Drafts in general will tend to encourage resource concentration, so in a draft situation, Marcia getting >1000 Bexp doesn't have nearly the same opportunity cost as in a normal run. When all units are available, Jill, Astrid, and Makalov all greatly benefit from large Bexp dumps. So Marcia getting her Bexp dump is more costly than in a draft scenario where you're likely to be using 0-1 of those other units.

As far as I know, this Tier List doesn't assume we're giving anyone 20 levels of BEXP to promote them when they join. However, Marcia does not need to be promoted to kill things.

Eh, Tormod's stave use is pretty poor due to weapon levels. C Staves for Restore in Chapter 21 or even Physic in Chapter 25 is unlikely, and B Staves for Rescue is pretty much completely out of reach.

Heal is all he needs. He should be fighting anyway. And his combat is much better than Volke's.

Soren also has Chapter 15, where he can pull off a 3 turn clear (if trained enough), which is as good as it gets without Super Marcia.

He can?

[aku chi]

You fail to mention how Volke is offering something better. This isn't Tormod vs. the other Sages.

I'm an interloper here, I'm not about to suggest how this community should tier characters, especially when it concerns thieving and staff utility (always difficult to weigh). I'm only interested in pointing out facts or points of view that might otherwise be overlooked. I wanted to point out, in the event that readers of this topic weren't aware, that Tormod has significant difficulties raising his staff weapon level (moreso than Soren and Ilyana), so his staff utility is lower than might be supposed.

[Florete]

I'm an interloper here, I'm not about to suggest how this community should tier characters, especially when it concerns thieving and staff utility (always difficult to weigh). I'm only interested in pointing out facts or points of view that might otherwise be overlooked. I wanted to point out, in the event that readers of this topic weren't aware, that Tormod has significant difficulties raising his staff weapon level (moreso than Soren and Ilyana), so his staff utility is lower than might be supposed.

Okay, I understand. But I wasn't going to bother with anything higher than a Mend staff for Tormod, anyway.

[Balcerzak]

I'm an interloper here, I'm not about to suggest how this community should tier characters, especially when it concerns thieving and staff utility (always difficult to weigh). I'm only interested in pointing out facts or points of view that might otherwise be overlooked. I wanted to point out, in the event that readers of this topic weren't aware, that Tormod has significant difficulties raising his staff weapon level (moreso than Soren and Ilyana), so his staff utility is lower than might be supposed.

"Interlopers" are always welcome, on the condition they provide thoughtful commentary, which you seem to have been doing so far that I've been watching. There certainly has been discussion over the viability of raising Tormod's staff rank before, but that might have been in another thread, and was surely before you joined. I believe consensus would be that if Tormod ever even gets to Physic, it would be for Endgame only, if I recall correctly.

As far as thieving concerns go, aside from Astrid's Boat chapter, where a rout clear basically necessitates their use, and aside from a guaranteed Boots find instead of relying on luck manipulation, in my experience Chest Keys on Canto units perform all the other thiefly functions just as well, if not better than an actual thief.

[aku chi]

The Paladins, Jill and Marcia are all more than capable of ORKOing most enemies with forged Hand Axes (Javelins in Marcia's case). Boyd may be able to pull it off with regular Hand Axes, but then there's accuracy problems.

The Paladins can't be dropped. With the assistance of a flier, Boyd can get to certain locations faster than the Paladins. And Marcia has difficulties ORKOing at range, even with a forged Javelin. She doesn't stand a chance against Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Tigers, for instance. Boyd does (although they're still a difficult forged Hand Axe 2HKO). Marcia is also much more likely to come up short against other enemies like Soldier/Halberdiers, Fighter/Warriors, and Cats, which Boyd doesn't have any problems with. To be fair to Marcia, she is more likely to be able to double and ORKO Myrmidons/Swordmasters and Ravens.

'Enormous' isn't the word I'd use. Marcia doesn't need any more BEXP than any other unit does (except the obvious Ike/Titania/Boyd/Oscar, and to a lesser extent Kieran) to hold her own and gain CEXP.

Of course she does. She needs a bunch of Bexp to be a viable combat unit. She needs an enormous amount to be able to pull off her really impressive stuff like LTing Chapter 12 and 2-turning Chapter 15.

This is wrong. Marcia is more than capable of ORKOing everything (except Generals, I suppose) in a draft all the way until chapter 28 or so. Flight puts her ahead of the other Paladins because 2 fliers > 1 flier.

She misses ORKOs at 2-range on a bunch of enemies and she can't ORKO some bosses or Generals that Oscar, Kieran, and Jill can. Throw in Oscar's crucial early chapters (with no Titania) and Oscar is an obvious first pick (or second pick if Titania is drafted). Kieran is more arguable, but if I could use Jill and not Titania or Oscar, I'd prefer Kieran.

As far as I know, this Tier List doesn't assume we're giving anyone 20 levels of BEXP to promote them when they join. However, Marcia does not need to be promoted to kill things.

Okay, so this tier list doesn't recognize Super Marcia's potential performances in Chapters 12 and 15? That doesn't do her any favors. And on the other point, Marcia does need a bunch of Bexp (>500) to ORKO anything except Priests and Mages.

Heal is all he needs. He should be fighting anyway. And his combat is much better than Volke's.

Tormod's combat is much better than Volke's, and he has good siege tome utility. But being able to heal at 1-range in the latter half of the game isn't particularly impressive: that was my point.

He can?

He can. He needs to be promoted, of course. He can get there in 3 turns with a shove or two. I believe he only needs to tank one laguz attack (it could be two). To ORKO Muarim, he needs 21 AS, which isn't trivial (he gets it naturally around level 20/9, but can get it around 20/4 with a Speedwing). His Magic doesn't need to be too high if a forged Fire tome is used. So it's possible. More realistically, he can one-two Muarim with a flier on turn 3 for the win. If you're worried about his durability, you can drop him on turn 2. If he has a tome equipped and your flier doesn't, the flier (probably Jill) can tank the hit. This is all pretty irrelevant, but, yeah...

[Radiant Dragon]

The Paladins can't be dropped. With the assistance of a flier, Boyd can get to certain locations faster than the Paladins. And Marcia has difficulties ORKOing at range, even with a forged Javelin. She doesn't stand a chance against Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Tigers, for instance. Boyd does (although they're still a difficult forged Hand Axe 2HKO). Marcia is also much more likely to come up short against other enemies like Soldier/Halberdiers, Fighter/Warriors, and Cats, which Boyd doesn't have any problems with. To be fair to Marcia, she is more likely to be able to double and ORKO Myrmidons/Swordmasters and Ravens.

Good thing Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Tigers aren't the majority of the enemies for most of the game then (she can ORKO Wyvern Knights). Also, I don't have enemy stats on me, but I'm reasonably certain she has no problems with Soldiers/Halberdiers and Fighters (I'll give you Warriors and Cats). Boyd having to be rescue-dropped due to his lower move is a negative, regardless of his performance.

Of course she does. She needs a bunch of Bexp to be a viable combat unit. She needs an enormous amount to be able to pull off her really impressive stuff like LTing Chapter 12 and 2-turning Chapter 15.

Again, she needs no more BEXP than someone like Nephenee, Astrid or Makalov. Besides, we're not low-turning 11, 12 and 15 because that would mean missing Jill (and the Laguzguard) and Stefan (and Vague Katti), both of whom are great units (items).

She misses ORKOs at 2-range on a bunch of enemies and she can't ORKO some bosses or Generals that Oscar, Kieran, and Jill can. Throw in Oscar's crucial early chapters (with no Titania) and Oscar is an obvious first pick (or second pick if Titania is drafted). Kieran is more arguable, but if I could use Jill and not Titania or Oscar, I'd prefer Kieran.

This is not a draft. Besides, she may not be ORKOing some bosses or Generals without Silver forges (neither is Oscar if I remember correctly, although Axes do him some favors) but that doesn't mean she's suddenly useless. And Oscar and Kieran will not be flying anytime soon.

He can. He needs to be promoted, of course. He can get there in 3 turns with a shove or two. I believe he only needs to tank one laguz attack (it could be two). To ORKO Muarim, he needs 21 AS, which isn't trivial (he gets it naturally around level 20/9, but can get it around 20/4 with a Speedwing). His Magic doesn't need to be too high if a forged Fire tome is used. So it's possible. More realistically, he can one-two Muarim with a flier on turn 3 for the win. If you're worried about his durability, you can drop him on turn 2. If he has a tome equipped and your flier doesn't, the flier (probably Jill) can tank the hit. This is all pretty irrelevant, but, yeah...

A 20/4 Soren by 15 is pushing it, especially if I could have a 20/4 Paladin or flier instead. Besides, the two Tigers next to Muarim will eat him alive before he can reach Muarim himself.

[Anouleth]

The Paladins can't be dropped. With the assistance of a flier, Boyd can get to certain locations faster than the Paladins.

Like Marcia.

Of course she does. She needs a bunch of Bexp to be a viable combat unit. She needs an enormous amount to be able to pull off her really impressive stuff like LTing Chapter 12 and 2-turning Chapter 15.

And spending the BEXP in that way gives you more payoff in terms of turns than any other way of spending it. If you give that BEXP to Boyd or Kieran, what will they do with it in Chapter 12 or Chapter 15?

She misses ORKOs at 2-range on a bunch of enemies and she can't ORKO some bosses or Generals that Oscar, Kieran, and Jill can. Throw in Oscar's crucial early chapters (with no Titania) and Oscar is an obvious first pick (or second pick if Titania is drafted). Kieran is more arguable, but if I could use Jill and not Titania or Oscar, I'd prefer Kieran.

Yet this is not a draft playthrough (and drafts generally assume Titania anyway). Titania and Oscar will almost always be in play.

Okay, so this tier list doesn't recognize Super Marcia's potential performances in Chapters 12 and 15? That doesn't do her any favors. And on the other point, Marcia does need a bunch of Bexp (>500) to ORKO anything except Priests and Mages.

If Marcia can take BEXP and accomplish useful tasks that nobody else can, that is obviously a point in her favour.

He can. He needs to be promoted, of course. He can get there in 3 turns with a shove or two. I believe he only needs to tank one laguz attack (it could be two). To ORKO Muarim, he needs 21 AS, which isn't trivial (he gets it naturally around level 20/9, but can get it around 20/4 with a Speedwing). His Magic doesn't need to be too high if a forged Fire tome is used. So it's possible. More realistically, he can one-two Muarim with a flier on turn 3 for the win. If you're worried about his durability, you can drop him on turn 2. If he has a tome equipped and your flier doesn't, the flier (probably Jill) can tank the hit. This is all pretty irrelevant, but, yeah...

There is the problem of sinking 2000 BEXP into a Sage. While it is one thing to give lots of BEXP to someone like Marcia who never really stops being great, Soren has movement and durability issues, so it's questionable if the massive influx of BEXP is worth it for a single chapter of payoff. If you're going to question the value of giving that much EXP to Marcia who is clearly giving us our money's worth, suggesting Soren in the next paragraph is ridiculous.

[Zkirsche]

except the obvious Ike/Titania/Boyd/Oscar, and to a lesser extent Kieran

Kieran is in the same bracket as Ike/Boyd/Titania/Oscar. Again, he join statistically comparable, or even better, than Oscar. Please stop underrating Kieran's join time performance.

[aku chi]

Like Marcia.

Or Janaff or Haar or Tanith. I've already explained that Boyd is the best rescue-drop candidate and Marcia is one of several flying droppers. More credit should be given to Boyd when he performs well with a flying rescue-drop.

Good thing Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Tigers aren't the majority of the enemies for most of the game then (she can ORKO Wyvern Knights). Also, I don't have enemy stats on me, but I'm reasonably certain she has no problems with Soldiers/Halberdiers and Fighters (I'll give you Warriors and Cats). Boyd having to be rescue-dropped due to his lower move is a negative, regardless of his performance.

1) They exist in rout chapters. They must be routed. Boyd can ORKO most enemies at 1-2 range. Maria can't. This is a point in Boyd's favor.

2) Boyd's ability to be rescue-dropped can give him an advantage over every unit who doesn't have the best movement. So while he never has any mobility advantages over Marcia and the other fliers, he can get to places that the Paladins cannot. The best examples are Chapters 15 and 25, where Paladins are slowed down by the terrain, but Boyd can also be rescue-dropped over the moat in Chapter 21, for instance, to get to the throne room faster. Boyd needs a flier to carry him, but he has this option and the Paladins don't. This is an advantage. And since of the fliers, only Jill can come close to matching Boyd's ORKO at range utility or boss killing utility (and she still falls up short), ferrying Boyd with a lesser flier is often worth it.

And spending the BEXP in that way gives you more payoff in terms of turns than any other way of spending it. If you give that BEXP to Boyd or Kieran, what will they do with it in Chapter 12 or Chapter 15?

I've never argued to the contrary. Giving Marcia a bunch of Bexp may be optimal, but it is still costly: that Bexp could otherwise have gone to other units who can make good use of it. This should be considered.

If Marcia can take BEXP and accomplish useful tasks that nobody else can, that is obviously a point in her favour.

I agree. Radiant Dragon doesn't seem to agree, though.

Again, she needs no more BEXP than someone like Nephenee, Astrid or Makalov. Besides, we're not low-turning 11, 12 and 15 because that would mean missing Jill (and the Laguzguard) and Stefan (and Vague Katti), both of whom are great units (items).

You're rather proving my point. There are several units other than Marcia who really benefit from a large Bexp dump. Marcia taking that much Bexp is a negative when compared with Boyd, Kieran, and Oscar.

This is not a draft. Besides, she may not be ORKOing some bosses or Generals without Silver forges (neither is Oscar if I remember correctly, although Axes do him some favors) but that doesn't mean she's suddenly useless. And Oscar and Kieran will not be flying anytime soon.

Yet this is not a draft playthrough (and drafts generally assume Titania anyway). Titania and Oscar will almost always be in play.

I know this is not a draft, that was my original point, directed at those who would use draft experience to suggest that Marcia was more useful than Kieran or Oscar. While this may be the case with a certain popular draft ruleset, I could (and did) craft a hypothetical draft ruleset under which Oscar, Kieran, and Boyd would be comparatively more valuable. I wasn't suggesting that this draft ruleset was any more relevant to a no-unit-restrictions tier list. So let us drop the draft talk.

A 20/4 Soren by 15 is pushing it, especially if I could have a 20/4 Paladin or flier instead. Besides, the two Tigers next to Muarim will eat him alive before he can reach Muarim himself.

There is the problem of sinking 2000 BEXP into a Sage. While it is one thing to give lots of BEXP to someone like Marcia who never really stops being great, Soren has movement and durability issues, so it's questionable if the massive influx of BEXP is worth it for a single chapter of payoff. If you're going to question the value of giving that much EXP to Marcia who is clearly giving us our money's worth, suggesting Soren in the next paragraph is ridiculous.

I did it on a recent draft run, so it's possible. It's not realistic with most unit compositions, hence my "More realistically:" segment which I talked about a lower leveled Soren contributing towards a Muarim kill on turn 3 with a flier, neither of whom need 21 AS to double Muarim. But this is still irrelevant.

[Anouleth]

Or Janaff or Haar or Tanith. I've already explained that Boyd is the best rescue-drop candidate and Marcia is one of several flying droppers. More credit should be given to Boyd when he performs well with a flying rescue-drop.

And how often is this useful?

(in addition, Boyd faces some competition from Tauroneo, who has the advantage of better offense and durability in Resolve mode and doesn't require much training throughout the game)

2) Boyd's ability to be rescue-dropped can give him an advantage over every unit who doesn't have the best movement. So while he never has any mobility advantages over Marcia and the other fliers, he can get to places that the Paladins cannot. The best examples are Chapters 15 and 25, where Paladins are slowed down by the terrain, but Boyd can also be rescue-dropped over the moat in Chapter 21, for instance, to get to the throne room faster. Boyd needs a flier to carry him, but he has this option and the Paladins don't. This is an advantage. And since of the fliers, only Jill can come close to matching Boyd's ORKO at range utility or boss killing utility (and she still falls up short), ferrying Boyd with a lesser flier is often worth it.

Base level Tauroneo with a Javelin forge ORKOes every Knight and General in the throne room at 1-2 range, and only fails to ORKO the Myrmidons (but Boyd can barely double them himself). His higher strength is also useful against Ena, if you can get him into Resolve mode, and he's basically indestructible.

I do not really see the point in ferrying Boyd when we already have a character in the throne room who can do his job.

(I usually send Tormod over the sewer with Ike, rather than Boyd.)

I did it on a recent draft run, so it's possible. It's not realistic with most unit compositions, hence my "More realistically:" segment which I talked about a lower leveled Soren contributing towards a Muarim kill on turn 3 with a flier, neither of whom need 21 AS to double Muarim. But this is still irrelevant.

Of course it's possible. The question is whether it's worthwhile outside of a draft run, where Soren will be a lower level and you will have units like Jill, Marcia, Makalov, and Astrid who present valid alternatives to dump BEXP into.

[Interceptor]

You're not running out of BEXP easily in PoR unless you used it for altogether silly things, such as powering units way past the level of performance that you actually need from them at any given moment, or raising too many units period. That's a pretty big waste. For the most part, you can focus on a small group of units, and have plenty of BEXP available.

[aku chi]

And how often is this useful?

Let me theorycraft. Chapters where Boyd being rescue-dropped by fliers is potentially better than what the Paladins can do:

Chapter 11: Marcia can save some time by cutting across the houses in this chapter, but she can't deal with some of the tougher enemies near the Arrive square. She can drop Boyd, let him do the toughest combat (including ORKOing the Knight on the Arrive square) and arrive. (Of course, if we want to recruit Jill, we can't clear this chapter too fast, so this isn't a big win.)

Chapter 13: Jill or Marcia can drop Boyd onto the enemy ship on turn 2 to speed up the rout. This probably isn't necessary for a 7-turn clear, but it could be helpful.

Chapter 15: If you don't have Super Marcia or Super Soren, Boyd can be dropped near Muarim (on turn 2 at the earliest) to help one-two Muarim with your flier of choice.

Chapter 17-1: While Jill can probably clear the north on her own, dropping Boyd isn't a terrible choice if Jill can't handle it.

Chapter 20: If Boyd is durable enough (probably needs skills), dropping him up near Shiharam is an option. Shiharam is one tough dude, Boyd is one of the few units who has a chance to ORKO him.

Chapter 25: Dropping somebody at the top of the cliffs is the way to go. Boyd has the best offense, but Tauroneo or Wrath/Vantage Nephenee are more durable.

Boyd being rescue-take-drop ferried by mounted units might be valuable in other chapters, but he doesn't have any advantages over the Paladins there, which was the topic at hand, I believe.

Base level Tauroneo with a Javelin forge ORKOes every Knight and General in the throne room at 1-2 range, and only fails to ORKO the Myrmidons (but Boyd can barely double them himself). His higher strength is also useful against Ena, if you can get him into Resolve mode, and he's basically indestructible.

I do not really see the point in ferrying Boyd when we already have a character in the throne room who can do his job.

(I usually send Tormod over the sewer with Ike, rather than Boyd.)

Good point. I'd rather ferry a Restore Staff user to deal with Sleep shenanigans. Tauroneo, Ike, and the fliers can handle the throne room and Ena well enough.

Of course it's possible. The question is whether it's worthwhile outside of a draft run, where Soren will be a lower level and you will have units like Jill, Marcia, Makalov, and Astrid who present valid alternatives to dump BEXP into.

Probably not. But dropping Sage Soren or Ilyana or Boyd or Ike or Mia or Zihark to one-two with a flier is much more realistic, more realistic than banking on an uncertain ORKO from Super Marcia (the Laguz Lance has low hit), as well.

You're not running out of BEXP easily in PoR unless you used it for altogether silly things, such as powering units way past the level of performance that you actually need from them at any given moment, or raising too many units period. That's a pretty big waste. For the most part, you can focus on a small group of units, and have plenty of BEXP available.

Nevertheless, Bexp is not so abundant that it is valueless. The amount of Bexp Marcia needs to reach her potential is substantial and giving it to her deprives other units the means of improving themselves. It is a cost that must be considered.

Edited April 13, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

Let me theorycraft. Chapters where Boyd being rescue-dropped by fliers is potentially better than what the Paladins can do:

Chapter 11: Marcia can save some time by cutting across the houses in this chapter, but she can't deal with some of the tougher enemies near the Arrive square. She can drop Boyd, let him do the toughest combat (including ORKOing the Knight on the Arrive square) and arrive. (Of course, if we want to recruit Jill, we can't clear this chapter too fast, so this isn't a big win.)

Chapter 13: Jill or Marcia can drop Boyd onto the enemy ship on turn 2 to speed up the rout. This probably isn't necessary for a 7-turn clear, but it could be helpful.

Chapter 15: If you don't have Super Marcia or Super Soren, Boyd can be dropped near Muarim (on turn 2 at the earliest) to help one-two Muarim with your flier of choice.

Chapter 17-1: While Jill can probably clear the north on her own, dropping Boyd isn't a terrible choice if Jill can't handle it.

Chapter 20: If Boyd is durable enough (probably needs skills), dropping him up near Shiharam is an option. Shiharam is one tough dude, Boyd is one of the few units who has a chance to ORKO him.

Chapter 25: Dropping somebody at the top of the cliffs is the way to go. Boyd has the best offense, but Tauroneo or Wrath/Resolve Nephenee are more durable.

11: Titania, Oscar and Kieran have no problem getting to the Arrive square before Jill even shows up, so dropping Boyd is not necessary.

13: Boyd is more than able to get to the middle ship on his own by turn 2.

15: The problem with dropping someone near Muarim is that the Tigers next to them will attack and kill your unit (if it's Super Soren) or themselves (if it's Boyd), forcing us to restart. Also, Boyd won't be able to take on Muarim after he gets mauled by the Tigers; He'll have to heal. There is also a Cat or two who will transform by turn 2.

17-1:This is true. The Halberdier will retreat to heal if damaged, so ORKOing is necessary.

20: I doubt Boyd can ORKO Shiharam. Anyway, the best strategy here is probably using a long-range tome to knock his health down so Marcia or Jill can finish the job and the other Arrives.

25: Marcia, Jill and Tanith should be able to handle the top by themselves. Also, we don't have Resolve yet, but Wrath/Vantage Nephenee is vaild.

Boyd being rescue-take-drop ferried by mounted units might be valuable in other chapters, but he doesn't have any advantages over the Paladins there, which was the topic at hand, I believe.

Boyd may have being able to be rescue-dropped over the Paladins, but that's honestly not much of an advantage, since Marcia, Jill and Tanith are more than capable of handling themselves.

Probably not. But dropping Sage Soren or Ilyana or Boyd or Ike or Mia or Zihark to one-two with a flier is much more realistic, more realistic than banking on an uncertain ORKO from Super Marcia (the Laguz Lance has low hit), as well.

Again, 2-3 turning this chapter is disadvantageous because we lose Stefan (can he be recruited by turn 3?). Besides, Muarim's avoid isn't high if I recall correctly, so Marcia/Jill ORKOing with the Laguz Lance isn't that risky.

Nevertheless, Bexp is not so abundant that it is valueless. The amount of Bexp Marcia needs to reach her potential is substantial and giving it to her deprives other units the means of improving themselves. It is a cost that must be considered.

...So? I can say the same about any other unit that needs BEXP. We do not need to BEXP Marcia to promotion for her to be useful. There's more than enough BEXP to train Marcia, Jill, the Paladins, and a few other units of your choice. Plus, we get much more out of giving Marcia that BEXP than we do by giving it to any other unit (except Jill) because she can fly.

[aku chi]

11: Titania, Oscar and Kieran have no problem getting to the Arrive square before Jill even shows up, so dropping Boyd is not necessary.

13: Boyd is more than able to get to the middle ship on his own by turn 2.

15: The problem with dropping someone near Muarim is that the Tigers next to them will attack and kill your unit (if it's Super Soren) or themselves (if it's Boyd), forcing us to restart. Also, Boyd won't be able to take on Muarim after he gets mauled by the Tigers; He'll have to heal. There is also a Cat or two who will transform by turn 2.

17-1:This is true. The Halberdier will retreat to heal if damaged, so ORKOing is necessary.

20: I doubt Boyd can ORKO Shiharam. Anyway, the best strategy here is probably using a long-range tome to knock his health down so Marcia or Jill can finish the job and the other Arrives.

25: Marcia, Jill and Tanith should be able to handle the top by themselves. Also, we don't have Resolve yet, but Wrath/Vantage Nephenee is vaild.

11: Yeah, the Marcia drop strategy is only relevant if we don't care to recruit Jill for some reason.

13: That is not the enemy ship. Only fliers and their cargo can reach the enemy ship on turn 2. As I said, it might not be necessary for a 7-turn clear, but it's possibly a good idea (again, Boyd has to be durable enough for this to work).

15: For Boyd, unequip weapons. Have your flier weaken Muarim so that Boyd delivers the finishing blow.

20: True, it looks like Boyd needs 28 Strength to 2HKO Shiharam with a Steel Forge. That is one tough dude!

25: If you're trained all of those fliers, I guess that could work. Dropping a unit or two with better combat seems like at least as good a strategy. Yeah, that was a mistype with Resolve, I meant Vantage.

Again, 2-3 turning this chapter is disadvantageous because we lose Stefan (can he be recruited by turn 3?). Besides, Muarim's avoid isn't high if I recall correctly, so Marcia/Jill ORKOing with the Laguz Lance isn't that risky.

Stefan can be recruited on turn 4. We can wait until then to kill Muarim if we'd prefer it, but then there are a few more transformed laguz that could make things hairy. It's arguable if Stefan's worth it. A 20/2 Super Marcia has 64-84% displayed hit against Muarim with the Laguz Lance, depending on their biorhythms. That's pretty risky. A drop + one-two attack with accurate weapons is safer so long as the dropper and droppee can tank the laguz attacks. It also doesn't require 21 AS.

...So? I can say the same about any other unit that needs BEXP. We do not need to BEXP Marcia to promotion for her to be useful. There's more than enough BEXP to train Marcia, Jill, the Paladins, and a few other units of your choice. Plus, we get much more out of giving Marcia that BEXP than we do by giving it to any other unit (except Jill) because she can fly.

You can say that about several other units. But you can't say it about Boyd, Kieran, and Oscar, against whom Marcia is being compared. Marcia doesn't get the Bexp for free: their is an opportunity cost associated with the resource use.

[Zkirsche]

You can say that about several other units. But you can't say it about Boyd, Kieran, and Oscar, against whom Marcia is being compared. Marcia doesn't get the Bexp for free: their is an opportunity cost associated with the resource use.

Just a heads up, people here assume those that are good with a resource, get the resource with less cost than someone bad with it. Furthermore, if you are the best use of a resource, you get it for free. Marcia is a pretty damn good person to BEXP too.

[Interceptor]

Nevertheless, Bexp is not so abundant that it is valueless.

Tell that to someone who argued it, please. My point was pretty straightforward: running out of BEXP requires that you do silly things like use it to blow your nose, level off an uneven kitchen table, or turn Rolf into a decent unit.

Furthermore, if you are the best use of a resource, you get it for free.

What? No. Stop making things up. The performance of the second-best person, relative to the best, is usually pretty important.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Interceptor

[Radiant Dragon]

13: That is not the enemy ship. Only fliers and their cargo can reach the enemy ship on turn 2. As I said, it might not be necessary for a 7-turn clear, but it's possibly a good idea (again, Boyd has to be durable enough for this to work).

Whoops, I misread that. Still, Marcia and Jill should be taking care of the Ravens. The foot units can handle the ships well enough.

25: If you're trained all of those fliers, I guess that could work. Dropping a unit or two with better combat seems like at least as good a strategy.

Tanith doesn't need to be trained; She's great right out of the box. And why wouldn't we train Marcia and Jill? They're the #2 and #3 best units in the game (behind Titania).

Stefan can be recruited on turn 4. We can wait until then to kill Muarim if we'd prefer it, but then there are a few more transformed laguz that could make things hairy. It's arguable if Stefan's worth it. A 20/2 Super Marcia has 64-84% displayed hit against Muarim with the Laguz Lance, depending on their biorhythms. That's pretty risky. A drop + one-two attack with accurate weapons is safer so long as the dropper and droppee can tank the laguz attacks. It also doesn't require 21 AS.

The problem with unequiping Boyd is that the Tigers will block his path to Muarim, and he'll still need to heal. And a Sage will get killed.

What I usually do is have Marcia stand in front of Muarim with a left over Iron Sword forge (and the Laguzguard), weakening the Tigers and Muarim, and finishing Muarim with a Steel Lance forge after Stefan is recruited. That's not to say that's the only way to do it, of course. But I believe it's best to just send your preferred flier to deal with Muarim alone.

You can say that about several other units. But you can't say it about Boyd, Kieran, and Oscar, against whom Marcia is being compared. Marcia doesn't get the Bexp for free: there is an opportunity cost associated with the resource use.

Are you saying that Boyd, Kieran and Oscar will never get BEXP? Of course there's a cost for using BEXP; I don't believe she gets it for free. However, her performance with it more than makes up for that.

[Florete]

11: Yeah, the Marcia drop strategy is only relevant if we don't care to recruit Jill for some reason.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Jill needs to show up in Ch 11 to be recruited in 12.

[aku chi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Jill needs to show up in Ch 11 to be recruited in 12.

Unfortunately, she does. I discovered this when I 4-turned Chapter 11 on a recent draft run (and I drafted Haar, so it really sucked). I believe Jill's scene is sometime during turn 5, but I don't know if it's before player phase or not (allowing a 5 or 6 turn clear).

[Florete]

Unfortunately, she does. I discovered this when I 4-turned Chapter 11 on a recent draft run (and I drafted Haar, so it really sucked). I believe Jill's scene is sometime during turn 5, but I don't know if it's before player phase or not (allowing a 5 or 6 turn clear).

It's just that in all my draft runs lately, I don't ever remember seeing her appear (with the exception of one time where I had to reset anyway), but I always ended up recruiting her. I've always finished in 5 turns, so if she appears after that player phase, she definitely doesn't need to appear to be recruited.