FE9 Tier list v3

[Shadow Mir]

With a better team it may still be possible. See my run on the Tellius draft:

16: 5/88

Map: Yay Muarim! Let's go.

Base: Start by having Marcia Rescue Ike. She'll drop him on turn 3, two turns away from Seizing. Titania moves as fast as she can so can Hammer the boss for the OHKO on turn 5. After dropping Ike, Marcia goes with Muarim to open Chests. Brom didn't do much of anything.

My team: Ike, Titania, Marcia, Brom, Muarim (Marcia w/Boots and promoted). Notice how Brom did nothing. Yes, that is all, and I did it in 5 turns with the Dracoshield and Full Guard. With 6 turns and more units (Paladins, Mordecai, etc.) it should be very possible to both recruit Devdan and get the Chests up there.

Well, getting the Bolting and Physic while recruiting Devdan AND getting the Dracoshield and Full Guard... My brain's scrambled.

[Florete]

Well, getting the Bolting and Physic while recruiting Devdan AND getting the Dracoshield and Full Guard... My brain's scrambled.

Well, there are 10 deployment slots aside from Ike. Let's say you do what I did to get what I did, which means you deploy Marcia, Muarim, and Titania to get the Shield and Full Guard, kill the boss, and have Ike Seize (Brom did nothing, so he's not deployed) by turn 5, but you don't care about taking 6 turns, either. This means you have 7 more units that you can use just for extras:

Oscar

Kieran

Jill

Mordecai

Sothe/Mist/any other kid (Sothe can double as a recruiter and Chest opener without Keys, Mist can be promoted for more Move)

You probably don't need three fighters (you'll also get Devdan), and that still leaves two more slots left in case you decide you want the Silver Lance and Ashera Icon on top of it.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

That may be true, but the problem with max efficiency is that we'd have a 'not recruited tier' with: Kieran, Brom, Nephenee, Jill, Makalov, Devdan, Haar and Nasir. And Shinon would be tiered solely on his early game contributions.

Strictly speaking, there is nothing wrong with this.

If you want a more casually informative tier list, perhaps speed/efficiency is not the way to tier by.

[Zkirsche]

I'd like to point out that I could've got done my PoR draft in 5 turns had I actually paid attention to that. And this was with only Titania, Marcia, Ike and Mordecai. Albeit and overpowered Marcia and Titania, but w/e, that's still two units and they should be pretty strong anyway. Add Jill, Oscar, Kieran etc etc and getting both the full guard and bolting isn't hard.

We don't want to recruit devdan anyway.

[aku chi]

Oh, cool. Lethe > Muarim happened. I guess Nephenee vs. Lethe/Muarim might be a valuable discussion, though. I don't have a clear understanding of their comparitive value.

My general impressions of Lethe v Nephenee:

- Nephenee requires a sizable Bexp dump to be valuable (~600 Bexp?). Lethe does not (though she probably wants an Energy Drop or two more than Nephenee).

- Lethe will have a more impressive early-mid game, especially before Nephenee gets her Bexp dump.

- Nephenee will be a better combatent mid-late game, but she is somewhat dependent on rescue-drops to get to the front lines.

- Lethe has some shove/rescue utility, even lategame.

[-Cynthia-]

I put Muarim over Nephenee, because Nephenee isn't all that great before Muarim shows up (mostly unpromoted), and I would say he beats her overall after that. +2 Mov, and the ability to Shove/Smite mounted things is pretty handy, even if her offense is a little better.

Mordecai's a bit of a different case, since Demi!Band Mordecai doesn't double much of anything, making her offensive lead more prominent. Mordecai is mostly there for Smite bot utility, which is hard to gauge overall I think.

I haven't forgotten about Volke/Sothe, currently I've found that the Chest Keys don't cover quite everything I want to loot, but it's very close. Still the Boots/Physic in the desert to consider. Thieves are tricky to tier.

[Anouleth]

By necessity, you are spending turns to get Bolting and Physic. If you can reach those items on turn X, you can also reach the throne on turn X-1.

[Zkirsche]

5 turns is fine for chapter 16 though, and remember a rescueing unit may not actually be able to work that fast, so that's not necessarily true.

[Sol Hiryu]

Oh, cool. Lethe > Muarim happened. I guess Nephenee vs. Lethe/Muarim might be a valuable discussion, though. I don't have a clear understanding of their comparitive value.

My general impressions of Lethe v Nephenee:

- Nephenee requires a sizable Bexp dump to be valuable (~600 Bexp?). Lethe does not (though she probably wants an Energy Drop or two more than Nephenee).

- Lethe will have a more impressive early-mid game, especially before Nephenee gets her Bexp dump.

- Nephenee will be a better combatent mid-late game, but she is somewhat dependent on rescue-drops to get to the front lines.

- Lethe has some shove/rescue utility, even lategame.

I don't know...Lethe might have a better earlygame, but she really starts to falter at the tail-end of midgame, as her offense doesn't really grow into anything spectacular. Shove/Rescue utility isn't really a big selling point when you have a bunch of paladins and fliers to rescue chain already. The big problem is that she can't even use the Demi Band effectively, since she needs all the strength that she can get if she wants to see combat. An Energy Drop has a lot more value to it than BEXP, as well.

Nephenee does have a bit of a rough start, but she can take the relatively uncontested Vantage (which I don't think many other people want by the time you get it) and combine that with her innate Wrath and a forge to give her a jump in offense.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

The one issue is that she starts in E Lances so she can only take a max Iron forge, which is about 20 MT at base.

[aku chi]

I don't know...Lethe might have a better earlygame, but she really starts to falter at the tail-end of midgame, as her offense doesn't really grow into anything spectacular. Shove/Rescue utility isn't really a big selling point when you have a bunch of paladins and fliers to rescue chain already. The big problem is that she can't even use the Demi Band effectively, since she needs all the strength that she can get if she wants to see combat. An Energy Drop has a lot more value to it than BEXP, as well.

I'll do a little stat comparison at the end, but I disagree that 600 Bexp when Nephenee wants it (before 17-1, at the latest) is less costly than the C13 Energy Drop. After all, Lethe herself would prefer the 600 Bexp: it would give her almost +2 Str in levels in addition to increasing her other stats, the only downside being slightly slower levelling and lower final Str.

Nephenee does have a bit of a rough start, but she can take the relatively uncontested Vantage (which I don't think many other people want by the time you get it) and combine that with her innate Wrath and a forge to give her a jump in offense.

While Nephenee probably makes the best use of Vantage, it is far from uncontested. In fact, I'd place it up with Resolve and Adept as the most desired skill scrolls. Vantage combos great with Wrath and Resolve. And while Nephenee is the only unit with either of those skills in C15, Wrath can be obtained in C18: we might want to use both scrolls on one unit who can make even better use of the combo (Boyd comes to mind, Largo is a late but great option). Vantage also combos nicely (if not quite as nicely) with Adept and Guard. Zihark is a great Vantage candidate, because innate crit along with Adept can let him kill many enemies before they can even attack. Soren is a decent Vantage candidate; it improves his durability some. The C17-4 Adept opens up more possibilities for Vantage/Adept (Marcia or Titania, perhaps). Guard is also available after C15, so you might want to give Vantage and Guard to a unit with iffy durability, like Marcia.

The one issue is that she starts in E Lances so she can only take a max Iron forge, which is about 20 MT at base.

That's an issue, but hardly her only one. She needs a sizable Bexp dump to have serviceable durability and double everything.

Here's a theoretical comparison between Lethe and Nephenee in 17-1 or something:

Level 7 Lethe

39.2 HP, 14 + 6 Str, 12.6 + 4 Skl, 14.8 + 3 Spd, 17 Lck, 10.6 + 5 Def, 8 + 3 Res

Level 20/1 Nephenee

33.15 HP, 15.2 Str, 19.15 Skl, 20.15 Spd, 9.25 Lck, 15.55 Def, 8.25 Res

With a Steel Lance forge, Nephenee can have 30 Atk compared to Lethe's 28 Atk. Nephenee's 1-2 range options are poor at this point. She probably can't wield the Spear. The Short Spear only gives her 24 Atk, which is enough to 2HKO Mages. Nephenee does double everything with ease, whereas Lethe needs to be a little fortunate to double all of the Myrmidons. Lethe has a modest durability advantage and the always useful 9 mov (plus, bushes don't bother her none). Nephenee does potentially have some supports to boost her Atk, which is nice, but they aren't relevant quite yet.

Edited May 28, 2011 by aku chi

[Life]

That's an issue, but hardly her only one. She needs a sizable Bexp dump to have serviceable durability and double everything.

Here's a theoretical comparison between Lethe and Nephenee in 17-1 or something:

Level 7 Lethe

39.2 HP, 14 + 6 Str, 12.6 + 4 Skl, 14.8 + 3 Spd, 17 Lck, 10.6 + 5 Def, 8 + 3 Res

Level 20/1 Nephenee

33.15 HP, 15.2 Str, 19.15 Skl, 20.15 Spd, 9.25 Lck, 15.55 Def, 8.25 Res

With a Steel Lance forge, Nephenee can have 30 Atk compared to Lethe's 28 Atk. Nephenee's 1-2 range options are poor at this point. She probably can't wield the Spear. The Short Spear only gives her 24 Atk, which is enough to 2HKO Mages. Nephenee does double everything with ease, whereas Lethe needs to be a little fortunate to double all of the Myrmidons. Lethe has a modest durability advantage and the always useful 9 mov (plus, bushes don't bother her none). Nephenee does potentially have some supports to boost her Atk, which is nice, but they aren't relevant quite yet.

I'm so glad I just finished Neph in my Arms Scroll topic.

Let's assume that we give Neph the Arms Scroll we find in Chapter 9 along with enough BExp to pull her up to level 12 (514 BExp, a sizable dump but not something that I'm going to shit my pants over since we just gained 1100+ BExp if we Metal Gear Solid'd Chapter 10 in addition to the 800+ sitting in the bank after properly equipping Mia/Boyd/Soren/Oscar for Chapter 8). She then starts out Chapter 11 with D Lances and a 20 Atk Steel Lance that she only needs to swing 20 times in order to gain C Lances. And oh look, the Killer Lance pops up this chapter!

Moving to Chapter 14, Nephenee's gained a couple of levels (I'd say about 4 or so, depending on if you use BExp to finish up a level or not) and now has C Lances. She's looking at these stats for Training.

Nephenee - Level 16 Soldier - C Lances - Wrath
Steel Lance (F): 27 Att, 118 Hit, 16 AS, 7 Crit (+5 Atk, +10 Hit, -1 Wt)
Killer Lance: 22 Att, 108 Hit, 16 AS, 37 Crit
Short Spear (1~2 Range): 21 Att, 108 Hit, 16 AS, 7 Crit
27 HP, 40 Avo, 8 Dodge, 12 Def, 5 Res

I'd like to mention that this Steel Lance forge takes the place of the Iron Forge that Nephenee would have gotten if she didn't receive the Arms Scroll. And it costs about 3000G, which is basically nothing when you consider all the free cash this game gives you in the form of near useless stat boosters (Statue Frag, Ashera Icon, 1x Red and Blue Gem, 20,000G at the start of Chapter 10...). The Killer Lance is there for Wrath abusing and the Short Spear is range.

Now, what does Nephenee kill? Since we're missing Chapter 14 stats (for the most part), I'm going to use Chapter 13 (and some of 16's) since I distinctly remember enemies in Chapter 14 being much weaker. Nephenee easily ORKOs Soldiers, Archers, Fighters and Myrmidons that she can double. On the ones that she can't, she leaves them in low single digit HP. Oh and she faces 50~60 Hit rates against those enemies while taking as much as 6 damage from the strongest ones aside from Steel Axe Fighters (this includes Javelin Halberdiers). She misses the ORKO on both Tigers but she leaves the Level 3 with 1 HP and the Level 4 with 3. The reverse has the Tigers scoring a near perfect 2HKO on Nephenee but she gets pulled down to Wrath range from that first hit (she's got 72 Crit on her Killer Lance at this point). Gashilama 2HKOs Neph and has like 40 Crit on her (along with WTA) but if Neph's already in Wrath range, she's going to put some significant hurt on the guy (assuming that he hits first and doesn't critical her). We're talking bringing him down to single digit HP if her 65 Crit on him.

The reason that I bring this up is that Nephenee has become a serious machine already 3 chapters later with only a forge (a non-factor since Neph's getting a forge anyway), an Arms Scroll (she's probably the best recipient at this point in the game) and 500ish BExp (essentially nothing since we have no problems giving Boyd a similar amount of BExp 3 chapters ago). Level 6 Lethe barely does more than her (3RKO'd by the Tigers but still OHKO'd by a crit from Gashilama and 3HKOs him in return without doubling) and Lethe has transformation issues (it's possible that Lethe may not even be able to fight Gashilama or the Tigers at this point). If Lethe is supposed to be a mile stronger than your units at the time that she appears, she's pretty much lost it. Neph's almost equaling Lethe's combat after only 3 chapters of existing.

This argument was brought to you by Arms Scrolls^TM Manufacturing Warehouse, located in the middle of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Life

[aku chi]

I'm so glad I just finished Neph in my Arms Scroll topic.

...

If Lethe is supposed to be a mile stronger than your units at the time that she appears, she's pretty much lost it. Neph's almost equaling Lethe's combat after only 3 chapters of existing.

Almost. After ~600 Bexp, an Arms Scroll, and the very first Steel forge (which has a much higher opportunity cost than one a few chapters down the line). I appreciate the comparison you provided, but there were some irrelevancies. Firstly, it doesn't matter how Nephenee/Lethe fare against the Tigers, they're stationary and don't need to be killed. Similarly, with Gashilama it doesn't matter how they fare at 1-range. Gashilama doesn't move and has a chance to OHKO them with a crit. It's safer to chip away at Gashilama with 2 range and then grab the kill at 1-range when he can be finished off before attacking. Nephenee can potentially contribute a little at the 2-range chipping (10 damage). But the most important neglected point is that Nephenee has 6 mov, Lethe has 9. Nephenee isn't going to be anywhere close to the boss by the time that the likes of Titania and Lethe arrive. The best Nephenee can do in this chapter is help clear out some enemies on the first two turns or trek off to the west to visit the nearby house (or clear out the enemies along that path). Chapters 13 and 17-1 are better for Nephenee, because her inferior movement isn't debilitating like it is in Chapters 14 or 16.

Edited May 28, 2011 by aku chi

[Zkirsche]

I'd like to mention that this Steel Lance forge takes the place of the Iron Forge that Nephenee would have gotten if she didn't receive the Arms Scroll.

The problem with this is that steel forges have only existed for a grand total of one chapter, and units like Marcia/Kieran/Oscar/Makalov/Ike are all asking for one of those and are all better than Nephenee to boot. Therefore its unlikely that she gets a steel forge.

I'd say about 4 or so

Gained 4 or so? I highly doubt this, chapter 12 is destroyed by marcia if we're using her, so Neph is unliekly to get tonnes of exp here and in chapter 11 we're probably pally rushing for an efficient clear. She can get some exp in chapter 13, yeah, but I'd say 2 levels at most. For reference, in a casual playthrough I'm doing at the moment, my Kieran is only level 15 at chapter 14. And this is going relatively slowly, I might add.

So, we're likely talking about a level 14 Nephenee who faces WTD against most of the map because of the bandits, average offence and a measly 6 mov vs 9 mov. That 3 mov kills her in terms of a comparison as it means Lethe is contributing 2-3 times more than Neph does per chapter, regardless of fighting prowess.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Kevin

[aku chi]

I haven't forgotten about Volke/Sothe, currently I've found that the Chest Keys don't cover quite everything I want to loot, but it's very close. Still the Boots/Physic in the desert to consider. Thieves are tricky to tier.

Indeed they are. I still stand by my previous suggestion that Volke compares favorably with Rhys and Sothe is comparable (less favorably) with Calill. Looking over the tier list, Volke and Sothe's positions are the only part that I take particular issue with (though I wouldn't mind taking a detailed look at the Sages v the Swordmasters in Upper-mid).

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, while I'm not going to take a position on whether or not Volke and Sothe's positions are correct or not (I'd rather not debate thief utility), I still disagree with the logic that Sothe doesn't deserve to be right under Volke simply because Volke 'massively outperforms' him. Again, I'm not saying whether they should stay right next to each other or not; I'm merely saying that that particular line of logic is faulty.

As for Sages vs. Swordmasters... It's too subjunctive for me to take a clear stand. Although I do wonder what Zihark has that puts him higher than Soren that Mia does not, since they always seemed very similar to me.

I also still want to see Calill > Gatrie, due to reasons previously stated. This is also somewhat of a subjunctive matter, though.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[-Cynthia-]

When it comes to thieving, Volke doesn't "massively outperform" Sothe. Being bad at combat as opposed to terrible at combat still isn't massively outperforming. Volke still gets 2HKOd by a lot of enemy types, can only fight at one range and goes from 2RKOing weaker enemy types at best to worse #RKO numbers because knives don't improve much as the game goes on.

The fact is that Sothe picks the same chests/lands in the same desert squares that Volke does. Sure, Volke is marginally better as an off combatant, but his combat is still bad so it doesn't help him much.

Edited June 10, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Radiant Dragon]

When it comes to thieving, Volke doesn't "massively outperform" Sothe. Being bad at combat as opposed to terrible at combat still isn't massively outperforming. Volke still gets 2HKOd by a lot of enemy types, can only fight at one range and goes from 2RKOing weaker enemy types at best to worse #RKO numbers because knives don't improve much as the game goes on.

The fact is that Sothe picks the same chests/lands in the same desert squares that Volke does. Sure, Volke is marginally better as an off combatant, but his combat is still bad so it doesn't help him much.

That was my point, but I'll admit I worded it poorly.

[aku chi]

Volke also has Chapter 10 all to himself where he is essential for a stealth run (if you want to recruit anybody or get any treasures). He can also help out in C11 with mediocre combat or visiting houses. Volke has both an availability advantage over Sothe and noticeable advantages in all of their shared chapters: Volke adjacent to Sothe doesn't sit right with me. It's like if Soren were adjacent to Ilyana, only worse. Or, a less extreme version of Calill vs. Bastian.

[-Cynthia-]

Volke also has Chapter 10 all to himself where he is essential for a stealth run (if you want to recruit anybody or get any treasures). He can also help out in C11 with mediocre combat or visiting houses. Volke has both an availability advantage over Sothe and noticeable advantages in all of their shared chapters: Volke adjacent to Sothe doesn't sit right with me. It's like if Soren were adjacent to Ilyana, only worse. Or, a less extreme version of Calill vs. Bastian.

Soren/Ilyana and Calill/Bastian are both different in that their primary use is combat (and Calill has some other benefits over Bastian like not terrible Spd, being around for the most important siege tome chapter etc.) Volke doesn't actually do thief duties significantly better than Sothe.

C10 I suppose this depends on if we're stealthing it or not? Stealth takes longer, so it strikes me as a less efficient option. C11 His job is replacable by any number of random units we could have picked up, no real credit here.

[Radiant Dragon]

C10 I suppose this depends on if we're stealthing it or not? Stealth takes longer, so it strikes me as a less efficient option.

It may be longer, but it also gives us far better rewards. And since we don't really get anything special for completing the chapter in 3 turns instead of 12, I would argue that stealth is more efficient here.

[aku chi]

Soren/Ilyana and Calill/Bastian are both different in that their primary use is combat (and Calill has some other benefits over Bastian like not terrible Spd, being around for the most important siege tome chapter etc.)

I selected those units specifically because they are more utility units than straight-up combat units. Soren and Ilyana have both staff and siege utility. Calill and Bastian are mostly siege utility. Granted, staff and siege utility actually depend on stats, unlike the Thieves' opening chests/doors and finding desert treasures. And Soren, Ilyana, and Calill probably can make better close-range combat contributions than Volke.

Volke doesn't actually do thief duties significantly better than Sothe.

Well, Volke can actually steal items, something that Sothe cannot without Bexp for Strength and Speed. And Volke has notable defensive leads over Sothe, especially post-promotion, so he can expose himself to more dangerous enemies while thieving. Low-resources Sothe is at risk of being 2HKOed during most of the game (and he can even be doubled and crit in the later chapters).

C10 I suppose this depends on if we're stealthing it or not? Stealth takes longer, so it strikes me as a less efficient option. C11 His job is replacable by any number of random units we could have picked up, no real credit here.

I don't think it's wise to assume either option for C10. And Volke is still useful if we brute-force the chapter, just less essential. As for C11, his contributions here are undoubtedly better than Sothe's. We don't have a gaggle of units more durable than Volke at this point, and there are several houses to visit, so Volke can make himself useful. Also, Volke's 7 mov beats out all but a handful of playable units.

[-Cynthia-]

Well, Volke can actually steal items, something that Sothe cannot without Bexp for Strength and Speed. And Volke has notable defensive leads over Sothe, especially post-promotion, so he can expose himself to more dangerous enemies while thieving. Low-resources Sothe is at risk of being 2HKOed during most of the game (and he can even be doubled and crit in the later chapters).

Volke's durability base isn't really good enough to leverage a big difference. 25 HP/7 Def is getting 2HKOd by several combinations of enemies even in C11 and it doesn't get a whole lot better from there. Granted, getting 2HKOd is better than getting ORKOd, but not by much.

I don't think it's wise to assume either option for C10. And Volke is still useful if we brute-force the chapter, just less essential. As for C11, his contributions here are undoubtedly better than Sothe's. We don't have a gaggle of units more durable than Volke at this point, and there are several houses to visit, so Volke can make himself useful. Also, Volke's 7 mov beats out all but a handful of playable units.

Oscar, Boyd, Titania, Lethe, Mordecai, Brom, Nephenee, Kieran, and Ike should all be more durable. Marcia's probably more durable because we've BEXPed her and this can apply for several other units as well. Volke's C11 is pretty insignificant because we have so many units that can do the same thing. Rolf's contributions technically beat a lot of units who are less available than he is, but he's bad enough that it doesn't help him much.

Sothe also has some minor advantages of his own, such as being able to be Shoved by more units (conversely Volke can Shove more units).

[Dark Sage]

You know, I'm awfully curious on the reason why Soren>Mia.

[-Cynthia-]

1-2 range, slightly better availability, better offense on many enemy types due to hitting Res. I suppose you could say these same arguments apply for Soren vs. Zihark, but Zihark has the ability to bcome nearly untouchable with supports and has Adept to match Soren.