Snowy_One Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 CAFE sucked the second time because the first and second had completely different roleplay styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purg Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Clearly, the person running the RP has no say in the RP style at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 In this case, yes. I used a posting style as close to the original as possible, but only one other person followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_e_s Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Shu was too OP for CAFE 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Shu also died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inactive Account Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 Would just like to point out that this is a feedback thread for an RP, not the "bitch at Snowy" thread. I don't agree with some of the things he does either, but this is getting tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 Would just like to point out that this is a feedback thread for an RP, not the "bitch at Snowy" thread. I don't agree with some of the things he does either, but this is getting tiresome. The last few pages of this thing need some serious fixing. I'll take care of it later. In the meantime I suggest all of you move this conversation to the main chat thread and non-feedback posts out of here as those will be warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 The thing is that people outside the RP aren't really supposed to post in the Chat thread. Or are they allowed to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 (edited) The thing is that people outside the RP aren't really supposed to post in the Chat thread. Or are they allowed to? I don't see a problem with them posting there so long as the members of the particular RP have no issues with it. The problem isn't them posting here, the problem is that the most recent posts have been spam or not feedback/comments regarding feedback given at all (and no, I haven't finished moving all the posts yet will get to it later >_>). Edited July 2, 2010 by Sirius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanami Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 Continuing from LoAF Suggestion P42, S843 @Posts So you're pointing out we have different RP styles why? To illustrate that I'm a wicked hag in it for her own entertainment, or to show that you're caring? XD I don't care either way really, you'll probably say neither and not offer a response anyway. That said, I don't see you point in the remainder of that paragraph, I've got cooperative results. Infact I think I even asked you to notice Lightning soldiers when you went flying with Aiya. Very small, and very insignificant, but cooperation nonetheless. Does that make you special? Not really. Cynthia, Bal and Sage have all cooperated in one way or another at some stage. And even Snike and Kiryn who I've kind of got a neutral-hate relationship with. Though whether they did it intentionally or not is unclear, it's not important. Since I've never been seeking cooperation. Why would I? I, like many others seem to put interactions in the forefront of priorities in an RP. And in my case, I react better then I make. In that sense, anyone who interacted with Reika or Kamilla under any circumstance no matter how small could be considered "cooperated." As for "opposite?" I don't have any idea what you're talking about. Cooperation isn't ..... wait, let me use your phrase Not listening to you, and not conceding on the spot are not the same thing. In that sense I don't really recall anyone doing the "opposite."@Experience Frankly, experience doesn't mean anything to me. If you want to raise me up and say "You knew what you were doing, we didn't" Then I was the superior Rp'er and therefore you're fools for not following my infinite wisdom. That said, I don't really think experience counts for very much at all. It does help you develop your "style" of Rping I suppose. But using Cocytus (My RP), I personally think he Rp's better then a good portion of the LoAF'ers who have been around for nearly a year. Think he said he was new. Using an example you might understand, if you compare Cynthia (Was she new to RP's?) and say.... Lightning Both supposedly had no experience, but the "quality" of posts and methods were very different. Furthermore, you keep ranting about "styles" but have you considered RP's are run by different "styles" as well? Having participated in SQ before LoAF would not have changed my ability to accept and solve "problems." You've categorized people yourself the "14 year olds" you mentioned are the inferior Rp'ers. (Your words not mine). But they've been RP'ing just as long as you have. Common sense, and general intelligence plays a much bigger role then experience in RP's. If you're going to evaluate experience so highly, then I've probably participated in more RP's then all of you combined <_< Doesn't mean I'm a better RP'er then all of you combined or individually for that matter. I've learned very little from LoAF, if at all. The "ignore because I don't like you" isn't anything new to me, whether it be RP or discussion in general. But I don't have any intentions of changing my personality just so that I can get along with others, if this is the internet and it's not childish to ignore people and whinge behind their backs, then surely it's not childish to be a stubborn rockhead like you and continue claiming to be in the right. To continue, I do think it's stupid to ignore it though. If it was just a random post on the boards slandering you, then fine. But the words "Ignore" and "Cooperation" don't mingle very well. More on that later. However Why should I be around to comment? Because I can? Because I feel like it? And because I am? I don't give two cents about my right to speech, if I don't have a right, big deal, I'm still doing it but if I see something I can comment on, and am willing to comment on, then I most likely will comment on it. I really don't find you of all people lecturing me on "plausibility" to be very approporiate. How about getting your head out of your derriere and actually being consistent? I'm not here to make the RP better, I was here to make my own RP experience more enjoyable, not yours, not anyone elses. Hence I was here to make it plausible for myself. So telling me I'm not "helping" is getting nowhere, don't you think? Or do you lack the ability to think? In addition, I was waiting for you to fail? Really? I thought I was the one misinterpreting things? Nevermind you've yet to correct any of them :/ I generally destroyed the situation before "fail" could occur. From as early as Damians company on the outskirts of the first town. To Ilyphina, didn't do much destroying after that since things were finally settling down. Though there was the inccubi/succubi incident, you conviniently gave Isotov super powers and blew up the situation anyway. Hehe Nerd rage XD @Psych Section So what? You're trying to improve things, but not interested in improvement? Either way, those who don't seek to better themselves are useless "tools" to be abused anyway. @Sense Yes, I'm talking to you. However I'm "degrading" the entire RP, and all it's participants at one level or another. Regardless, "ignore" is what you claimed to do with people you "hate" and Psych and myself were apparently unwelcome at varying stages by you at least. So combining your ideas hate=Ignore, Hate=Kanami, Kanami=Ignore. Am I reading to things? Not really, I'm combining your flawed logic which doesn't make sense, so if this isn't what you meant, I wouldn't be surprised. Flawed information comes from flawed logic anyway. It's not that you're being unclear. It's that you're saying one thing, then doing/saying the exact opposite thing the next. It's a bit further down in your post but I'll compare your contradictions here. I want to work with others/I want to baby my plots away from others. Lets cooperate/ I don't want to listen to you cause I hate you. No one listens to you cause your rude/ I(Phoenix) listen to you I want to improve everyones RP experience/I don't care about improvement You're an experienced RP'er and were newbs/What you say doesn't work (Combined with next) You know what you were doing we didn't/We don't agree with what your ideas and don't care about them. People aren't going to read text which slanders them/.....Self explanatory you idiot? What are you doing now? @Producitivty It's not my fault, that your mind is limited to outperform, outangst, outgodmod, out"myhorriblepast", outflashback etc. Again you hint that the only interaction that's acceptable in an RP is friendly interaction. There are plenty of characters who don't get along and provide good interactions. If your argument is "players>characters" then the same applies there. Unless of course one adopt the "I'm not going to talk to you" approach, in which case the person at fault is the "Ignorer" who's cutting off interaction. If players hate eachother, then at least they'll look for flaws with eachothers plans. And try to null them (your logic) If it's a horrible plan, that'd be a good thing. @Indifference Tact? Why would I want to be tactful? As you've said yourself, I enjoy blowing things up in your face. So people not heeding my "experience" is not an issue for me. Put simply, it's a split in the plot I'm willing to let the RP'ers chose. If they choose one path, good for them I have an event planned. If they choose the other, then it makes for a sounder plot. Which I'm equally happy with. The fact that you're listing my points as "good" yet have failed to take in the "points" is quite frankly, pathetic. If we were talking about someone else it wouldn't matter so much, but you? Phoenix who wants people to work on a better plot, make things flow smoother, ignoring "good" points, just because of a little hatred? Or a lot, either works for me If I was the GM, then I might want people to "warm up" to me, I'd at least want them to "listen." But the thing is, I'm not GM of LoAF. And I don't recall (and outright refuse) to be the person who has to look after everyone. Hell, I'm not even going to do that in my own RP. It's every man for themselves. If working with people works in their favor, that's great and I encourage it. If not.... well what's their to complain about? In regards to "fuck around" Hmmmm that's a tough one to explain so I'll use an example. The world is ending: Am I going to sit around and watch the world end, or am I going to enjoy myself during the time that remains? Will I go out of my way to make people miserable? No. Will I worry that my actions will cause misery? Again no :/ So contrary to what you tell me I'm thinking. I'm not in this to burn everything to the ground, I'm didn't participate to fulfil my personal vendetta against your crappy plots. I signed up to enjoy an RP, and figured if this RP is going to the pits, might as well drain any enjoyment I can out of it. It'd be interesting to see a list of things I destroyed, and what would have happened otherwise. Selizara being my favorite, "We've killed your soldiers, but don't hurt us, we're going to go to court to weasel our way out?" Evidence? Doesn't work in the groups favor, witness? Not to defend the group no. Corruption? Yeah, Daddy Harold wants to save the group that (according to Percy) held his daughter hostage. And even without that incident, it's so likely that Harold will save the group. Alternatively you could be captured as prisoners, dragged to Illyphina, and we can break out of jail. That would have worked for me as well. However in that situation Lieutenant Viveka certainly didn't have the power to "excuse" the group of their crimes. I'm against Conrad having such power as well. And with an invincible army surrounding the fort, the only way to solve it was by weakening the invincible army via a third party. (or having Damian go into bezerk mode, and the escaping while he slaughters everyone with his lance). According to you, no one is willing to imprison or get their characters killed. In that case what made you think everyone would quitely surrender to Viveka? Damians diplomacy? He's a Halton soldier, (invading nation... or was at the time) killing Elysimman troops. The only interpretations there are "War" or "Drop out soldiers gone bandit" And I'm certain Hero Percy has more say then Hero's son Damian, especially in Elysimma. Now tell me, what crappy solution did you have in mind? What did I screw up which was so great and "plausible?" @Working together Drop it? Why? Cause it's a great example of your contradiction and sugar coating? You're preachy because people aren't working with you and you want to change that. Or what. When you say "Lets work together" did you mean something other then people working with you? @Work3 No, you haven't answered any questions :/ My stance is clearly stated above. I'm not a nice person, and have no intentions of sinking my intelligence to the "walnut" level, just because people don't like me. And personally I find acting nice when you don't mean it, to be worse then being honest and hostile. Fighting for your entertainment? Wasn't that what I was supposedly doing? "trying to get my way?" Either way, it once again contradicts "cooperation." You only need to fight your way because your inflexible, as was I when it came to plausibility. @Interactions How things would be for us interaction wise? I'd probably have Reika slitting Irina's throat and Kamilla pulling on Isotovs hair. Since all characters for me are tools, then don't have IC, they're pure OoC for what I want to do. And right now, my attitude towards you is hostile. Perhaps moreso then I have been in the last few years. @ Immaturity Using for excercises? Uh huh, Let's cooperate? I be the test subject and you'll be the personal lording over you? Sounds great to me. Cooperation all the way :/ Human Nature dictates we only do what immediately benefits us? On one hand you're telling me you wanted to improve the RP, and the other tells me you're ignoring my "good" points due to your petty hate. Guess that means your human nature is only interested in the short term benefits and lacks the inability to look at things in the long term, but of course it is your brain we're talking about. More instinct less logic all the way. @Blargh You don't think we should be trying to work out shit that already happened? And here's another contradiction, this time with improvement. Phoenix: Screw what we got wrong in the past, it's done and over with. I don't know what went wrong but it won't again because..... err..... Kanami: *waits* The fact is, Snowy didn't step in, and I think I don't need to whail about his incompetence. Most Rp'ers here have experienced it first hand. And you've said in a PM yourself that he's a crappy GM :/ So mentioning him is only indicating at LoAF's management potential, and doesn't work in your favor at all. As for pacing :/ I envy that thick head of yours. Of course RP's would require people to spend half their waking hours infront of a computer. Super active or not at all? I would expect better cognitive abilities from an 8 year old. I can go ask one if you want? Have one coming over in a few minutes. @Conclusion Not listening to me, and continuing on as if it never happened is ignoring. I've never asked for people to understand me, since frankly I doubt even Bal could, who probably the smartest person in this RP. I was "demanding" you people assess your own situation, and make the best judgement. Something the majority was unable to do. And while it didn't surprise me, it doesn't lessen the dismay that comes with such idiocy. You'd think human nature would kick in and tell them not to charge to Ilyphina. Apparently human nature was on break that day. @Hate Aww come on, I can list up a few myself, no need to be all hidey hide over it. I can take being hated. If not, well then you might want to dismiss your "People don't listen to people they hate" ramblings, since if you can't list up at least one person who hated me, then your argument holds no water. Though you're more welcome to change it to "I(Phoenix) don't listen to you because I hate you" @Kindhearted Don't worry, I call fake hearted, for all your petty pretty talk. Sure you don't want to join politics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 @ Posts I'd say that right now, pointing out that you're in it for yourself and I'm in it for myself but without throwing people under the bus for entertainment purposes proves that you're hard to work with if there's an actual goal whereas I'm not. This is situational and varies by person though so I really don't care. Now to cut out a few other arguments altogether, let me just state again that coming into this rp to work together wasn't my initial goal. We shouldn't have had to band together to fix problems or ensure anything went off without a hitch at all. It seems like an inherent flaw in stat rping is that competition is going to set in on some level and is going to bleed into interaction and plots. Gaming minded people may come this way by default upon joining. Dunno. This is just speculation. Right now it's just the way it all seems in hindsight. Since you didn't have anything to lose in this rp it was a cakewalk for you no matter what happened or how while others wanted things to go a certain way for the sake of a "more desirable outcome". @ Experience Here are the categories. 14 year olds/Gamers: Competitive to a fault, but good at working with stats. Pros: Generally active enough to win stat battles easily. Can function in surprise attacks which is what LoAF is entirely comprised of. Cons: Can't work together without making the problems worse. As I said "competitive to a fault". Inferior? Is that really the term I used? Well I've said worse things so I can live with that though a better term for them is probably better summed up as "Too damn competitive" since that's the real problem, not superiority or inferiority which is hard to judge anyway. The value of people is something I generally stay away from since we're probably all equally worthless. Reactives: Mostly detached adaptable rpers. Pros: Not a lot of bad or otherwise ridiculous things come out of people in this category. Cons: Generally rely entirely on the situation to define their characters' existence and don't take initiative very often. This was the category I started off in when I first joined LoAF. I was actually hoping at one point to get better at stat battling but I'm still forgetting things to this day. Plotters: Generally conniving or otherwise driven by some sort of overall plan for things. Pros: Take initiative and seek some type of general outcome. GMs go here by default if they're actually running the rp in some way. Cons: Are dangerous to stability due to having things they'll protect. This is the category I quickly ended up in, though over the past few days I'm steadily losing interest in things that a week ago I would have gone the distance to maintain. Anyway those are the categories I was able to find and or care about. As of right now. People can put themselves wherever the hell they want really. I'm not going to bother with flaunting any kind of opinions about things since right now I'm more interested in finding out what I really want to do about things from this point forward. Leave your personality the way it is. Not everyone can mix, and the reasons why aren't always the ones you rant about. STOP FOR ONE SEC ... okay I think I may have finally snapped while writing this and my stance on everything is changing as I write this so I'm going to be more geared towards what I'm seeking NOW rather than defending myself from scorns and clearing up any misinterpretations I find. @ Styles Of course I've considered it. The only things I don't like about SQ is that there doesn't seem to be an actual structure to it. That's made things relatively safe for everyone but it's a bit too slow for my tastes and it wouldn't be much more than me posting things once a week or so which isn't the sum of what I wanted from an rp experience. As for other styles I'm more than willing to try them. Never meant to imply I wasn't. @ Me lecturing you Doesn't have to be appropriate. This isn't some caste system ... not quite just yet. @ Nerd rage That was just me giving into temptation and having a little fun with a bomb. I invented a slew of Proxima related powers that would spring up over the rp but abandoned 90% of them. The ones that are left I forgot what they even were. Probably for the best. I nearly killed off Isotov and essentially destroyed one of the nine all important (not really) CWs just because I got bored, and because Iso surviving any longer after that attack without healing made no sense even with the miracle skill on him. @ Psych section Your opinion I guess. Anyway I'm seeking to improve myself, yes. I can't improve other people. Not unless I force them into my workshop death camps. Besides. Not everyone really needs to improve, do they? In fact from a certain point of view the situation getting worse while pointless and unproductive doesn't need to provoke a fix. All the fixes we did either made it worse or gave you newer and better openings IIRC. @ Productivity I hint at friendly only interaction but I don't support the policy of friendly only activity. It's not enemies within the party that I mind. It's mismanagement. Do we have to attract security guards everytime Chase and Helios want to speak to each other? Can they wait til we're somewhere a bit less open? Probably not but no one would be annoyed that we avoided pissing off the law and found a new criminal arch route completely by accident due to a misplaced arrow in an official's back meant for Helios. The rpers weren't complaining as much when the enemy wasn't half way up our asses. Seemed like a good scenario to protect as a result but hey it didn't work out. I don't have much else to say on how things turned out since I've already commented on it a hundred times anyway. I just don't see the point of us hating each other to snuff out bad plans either. Kiryn and Luna are perfectly good at spotting flaws or apparent ones in plans without being motivated solely to hang me upside down from a basket ball hoop. @ Ignoring people (this was from earlier cause I didn't cover it) I ignored you in the days when I was too new to care about a person who was as hostile as you. I ignored Psych or belated the tar out of my posts (waiting for rulings and suggestions) in what may be come to known as the ice age of LoAF. Like I said. It didn't happen very much from me personally overall though I threatened to do it constantly, and in the end I've actually changed my policy again to better fit my current state, which is. Just see what happens. Psych's not actually trying to kill my characters off anyway so in my opinion I'm just being silly if I do anything but react in IC. This is LoAF. Iso just survived having his ribcage crushed. I'm not going to ask what could possibly go wrong but ... I've been protecting things too long to care anymore. As for people I have ignored a lot. The one I've done it to the most is probably Kiryn XD I used to misread her posts about 35% of the time and so I cut off interactions too soon or missed the cue to start them. It's getting a lot better now though since I'm paranoid as hell about it but part of me looks back at that and shakes his head at the irony of that. @ Indifference Not that I'm not dying to know what you would have done had we sided with you but honestly what the hell was Snowy (knowing how he does things now) going to do if we took a different route? Part of the reason I even based my rp off of multiple extremely broad routes was so that it didn't matter how stupid people acted. We had another place we could go, and other ways to get through places, though it's probably ten times less sound or concrete than I'd imagined. I mean the rp could be forced to an end simply by having the entire party stand next to a powder keg and setting it off. You could spawn one of those through a lack of context right when someone starts a fire. Game over. As for your points, it should be obvious that I only think some of them are good, the ones I actually agree with. You'll find out about those, but if you think I'm not taking the ones I agree with because I hadn't done so BEFORE I agreed with them, you're stuck in the past. How many times do I have to tell you that my opinions changed? Happens all the time at varying levels and degrees. It's been who I am as a person. You GMing would scare the pants off some people you've known in the past simply because it's you. Me? I'd just raise an eyebrow and wonder what the difference between you GMing and being a regular rper is besides being impossible to retcon. @ Fucking around Now that I can actually agree with though I'd still lean toward making my last days as little a burden to someone else as possible. Meh. Old habits will die hard even at the end. @ Selizara Bleh. I have another viewpoint on that even now. What was the point of trying to run OR fight? What were they going to do, hang us? Sure I got worked up over fear of that but what was there for fear of it for? Snowy could have just changed the main plot to have Helenos attack the city seeking the crimson weapons right then and there. Any number of things could have happened for better or worse. Her stats are too high for us to face her at level 1-2? So what? We had to face her right after we left Ilyphina anyway and he nerfed her then for us then. It would have been more interesting than TSing from inn to in. And it wouldn't have required us to coexist since Snowy would have still had some sort of plot at the time and could have kept us squished together through that magical binding spirit of unity called rper controls. Selizara just sucked. I didn't help, you didn't help(I know you didn't want I'm just saying), nobody fucking helped and we got so focused on getting off the hook that that became the main plot and it never occurred to us to just change the story. Elysima wasn't even important unless I'm forgetting something. Leaving? Yeah that was probably a good idea, that or burn down the place and build up a new country that likes us. Either way would have been fine with me more so recently than back then. Hell back then I was obsessed with clearing our names since I was under the impression that we had to do so in order to survive. Turns out we can group split and shit(less attention to ourselves). Turns out our characters have death immunity and people are really good at thinking up reasons why a pegasus landing on you daily isn't in fatal(Eric joke). I like how Snike actually tries to kill Eric rather than protecting him. That's always been a bit funny. There was no point in getting worked up over it and I'll never panic at an event that looks detrimental again no matter how bad it looks. I'd rather run the risk of sitting back and taking a look at it. If some idiots speed off and make it worse while I'm deliberating after I advise them not to then at least I get to show them an example in the future. Might prevent us from blowing up another country and getting modcursed by Wrath as a result(yeah I'd do that possibly ... sounds like it might be interesting). Thing with trying to capture the group is that it was the one time I was actually trying to force something on the group. I didn't want to at first but fuck you know what happened I don't need to bring that up again. It was a bad idea and a bad plan but the only one I had and I followed through with it. There was no concrete plan for us actually escaping, just a list of convenient things I would have liked to see happen that could have given us openings and opportunities to make us useful to the government that could have made up for what we'd done though it would have eaten up some chapters(big deal). Going to prison? That was fine with me too even more and more the closer we got since we TS'd around so much anyway but escaping was pointless unless we were actually going to leave. Prison for some months wasn't a real issue for me either so I didn't complain about it much. At least if we paid some kind of debt to the country it would be over and done with. Not sure how to reduce a slew of murder and arson charges down from a hanging to less than a year in jail but that was where the being military bitches for a few months idea came in. Why imprison a bunch of fit folks you could replace the people they killed with at slavery rates and throw them at problems where they might die anyway? It's nothing short of a win for them to use us like tools to kill problems and we'd have gotten stat battles and rping out of the deal. I'd have done that to the party if I was Snowy. So yeah for getting us off the hook I don't have a solid plan, but I didn't really need one either. None of us did but we thought we did(not you, I think your plan was just GTFO). Instead what we should have done was relax and let the rp slow down a bit while we considered some real options. You didn't screw up my plans to get us off the hook. Luna did. You just made it easier for her to do it and inadvertently to boot. The group was captured even with half the battalion destroyed, remember? Anyway, just how I feel about things regarding selizara at the moment. *sigh* Case closed. @ Working together No I think I wanted you to drop it because repeating myself isn't going to help. Maybe the issue will come up somewhere else and I'll be able to articulate something easier to interpret the way I want it interpreted easier or something. You and I have a tendency to bring up the same shit over and over so I feel confident that even if I tell you to drop something and you actually do and it's some unresolved or unaddressed issue it'll still likely come up again in the future. The inn fire sure as hell does. Just wanted people to work together to solve problems. We were all bitching about being criminals so I thought it'd be a good idea if we banded together to come up with a way out of it. It works on football teams and in Halo lobbies. Fuck is rping different from that stuff apparently. I mean we wanted our criminal status revoked but weren't willing to do it magically at first right? I didn't see the harm in huddling honestly I really didn't. I still don't. All I see is the failed attempt and no explanation for why though If you could provide one I'd appreciate it. @ Answering questions Dammit ... As for sinking to walnut level, I already said don't. No point. Besides. I'm not acting nice. Not unless my mood is so bad that I have to act to not come across a way I don't want to. I have moods like a normal person, but unlike a normal person I'm absolutely dead set on handling them in a certain way. Just because I'm pissed off doesn't mean I must be pissed off toward someone. Do I act sometimes? Hell yep. If I want to appear like I'm not pissed through text I will though I'm generally not good at hiding my mood through text. Practice practice I guess. Yeah I'll stick to the term fighting. Those people I did cooperate with ... do you think I was fighting them, or do you think I was fighting with the people that I wasn't cooperating with? Answer is latter. Now do you think that people I wasn't cooperating with weren't approached and spoken with at all, or it was simply determined that I was better off cutting my losses and breaking away? Answer is also latter. My cooperating is never toward my own subplots(not intentionally ... some people are just generous). Only toward a given situation. That's just for the record so nothing is skewered there. I didn't need much help with subplots since I kept them mostly separate from the party when possible. Anyway fact is that back in the beginning I thought cooperation came all on its own in something like this. The talks you had with Snowy before this somewhat created the mindset I came into this rp with. After selizara and friends I was convinced once and for awhile that working together was the best solution to avoid things we had general consensus on not liking such as plausibility and all randomly dying over some fires and the events that followed. Currently I'm perching on the fence again. I'd rather just throw the situation into the pause menu, and see if people can stare at it for twenty minutes and figure out why we're all going to be magically saved if this gets too serious. Solutions are overrated for me right now. @ Interactions Thank goodness for plot heals cause I like Irina better alive. She'd angst too much as a ghost. As for your hostility. Eh. As long as your not saying overly hurtful things to me I think I'm going to be alright. @ Immaturity Exercises yes. @ Human nature Nah nah nah. Immediate, and long term, don't matter. Human nature just lusts after benefits while the mind defines what benefits are and seeks after them while calculating the methods to obtain and practices used. That's about it. I don't ignore your points. I'm still disagreeing with some and agreeing with others. Ignoring isn't the right word here. @ Blargh Example time? Cool. You don't think we should be trying to work out shit that already happened? And here's another contradiction, this time with improvement.Phoenix: Screw what we got wrong in the past, it's done and over with. I don't know what went wrong but it won't again because..... err..... Kanami: *waits* That is something I am struggling with now actually. Earlier before I ended up in the hospital I was still sure that the solution was this. Phoenix: Screw what we got wrong in the past, it's done and over with. I don't know what went wrong but it won't again because in the next rp we'll work together to solve our problems!Psych: Psych should continue to be a part of this conversation somehow just for lulz. Anyway I'm still erring because right now right or wrong is irrelevant to me. I don't want to worry about who's methods are right. Only thing wrong with both quotes is that I actually still do care about what went wrong in the past even if only a little bit because if it happened again it would irk me. Nothing can happen again the exact same way but there's still some part of me that would rather avoid the same experience. I don't have any actual methods or techniques to avoid this that haven't already failed in the past. Best I can say for preventing it right now is that it's less likely to happen again regardless since the next GM isn't Snowy. Apparently he's quiting still. Like I said already, I'm thankful for the slowdown no matter the source. If this happened around the time of any of the majorly fucked events things may have gone a wee bit better. Maybe maybe not, I don't know. Just speculating. @ Conclusion Human nature wasn't on a break. It doesn't take breaks. It takes turbocharges. People just got curious about the capital. If we just left we would have had to go back through more inns and innfights until we reached another capital city and by then we could have been criminals in another country. People probably just thought it best to follow Snowy's lead and see if we could at least sneak in there and have alinfluential someone save us. Who knows? @ Hate Dude ... I honestly don't fucking know. I only have theories here. Maybe Ether, Lightning, and Kai hated you at some point in time. Dunno and don't care to bring up why anymore. I highly disliked you at one and only one point in the rp but only hated the PMS person that wasn't even involved in this. Keep in mind if I ended up hating you I would have been a hypocrite preaching about cooperation and that's why I kept writing those long posts with chat during the selizara bust. I was trying to secure some kind of truce then and there remember? That's not hate or ignoring. It's trying to nip a problem before the fort blows up ... which it did anyway. Honestly hating you right now would be us not talking ... ever. This is the exact opposite of not talking. In fact, holy shit this is half as long as that one pm I wrote. @ Kindhearted Yeah I'm sure I don't want to be in politics. I'd be good at it, make lots of money, and live well for a little while if I didn't let my conscience say a word to me like I do here sometimes, but I really don't want to get involved in that crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanami Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) A change in style, maybe this will make things easier for you to comprehend. @Posts -I am a reactive poster, -My goal is to not to throw people under a bus -My goal is to make sense and destroy elements which breach that. -Speculation is accurate, early Kai, and apparently Psych are prime examples. @Experience (14 Year Olds) -Inferior, competitive, not matter. Essentially "Problematic" -"Cons" is false. Not exclusive to "14 year olds" or "Gamers" (Reactive) -Inaccurate, reactions can be ridiculous. -Detached is false, Cynthia/Myself reactive players that aren't detached from RP plot/discussion. -Kai, Ether not reactive, somewhat detached. -Situation can escalate "One thing leads to another" strain. Hence not reliant on situation, able to add more context each time, to which others can respond. (snowball effect) (Plotters) -If you're trying to classify me here, you'd also have to classify everyone as a plotter. -I had no overall goals or plans in the RP, beside keeping fluffy crap out. (Implausible rubbish meant to get the group of of a tight spot, this is a form of Godmoding) -Con is synonymous to inflexible, certain goal must be attained. Which is indeed pathetic dangerous. -Personality won't change for anyone, sarcasm when offer made. -Change in attitude is good or bad? Vague information, irrelevant. @Styles -Not asking you to join SQ -Original comment was made under "Experience" Having experience in RP near useless if different style/format. @Lecture -Appropriate important. Kanami lecturing Bal on not causing trouble = Inappropriate, doesn't make sense -Likewise Phoenix talking about plausibility not make sense -Former statement indicates willingness to sacrifice plausibility for personal desirable outcome. @Nerd Rage -Poor excuse otherwise; Selizara, Inn fire = Kanami "having a little fun with a bomb" -No need for Gae-Bolg II -Isotov exploding and still surviving made sense to that situation how? @Psych Section -Seek to improve RP + Respect other people's enjoyment + Cooperation = Improve other people, if can't do, stop preach. -Pointless and unproductive = Spam RP, Examples available upon request. -Poorly thought out "fixes" aren't fixes. Adding fire to fire does not put out fire. -Inability to come up with good solutions = Discuss, not ever done. LoAF'ers generally fail to acknowledge problem. @Productivity -Define Mismanagement? -Arguing (Between Helios and Chase, or anyone else) does not lead to trouble. Often after trouble has occurred, or after complication solved. -Interactions are always open, no reason for restriction to be placed on where people can't be hostile, same as no restriction for people getting along. -Rp'er think = less trouble. Experience here is irrelevant, common sense plays role in "think" -Criminal status > Drug lords Incubus's -Criminal status > Stupid rot dragon -Criminal status > Water tome -Criminal status was fueled by all. Started by Kanami and Phoenix's Stupidity. But fueled by Ether, Cynthia, Snowy, Phoenix, Lightning. Phoenix and Kanami. (Even Kiryn for encouraging Ilyphina route). (Exception Bal/Kai?) -Complainer is also adding fuel to the situation? Contradiction? I want to kill people but not get punished for it? -Incorrect Hate eachother result of plan snuffing, not snuff plans due to hate. -Kiryn, disagree, not good at noticing. -Cynthia often ignored as things speed along. -"hangged upside down from a basket ball hoop" for shitty plans, your own fault, same concept as Psych ignoring. @Ignoring -Issues with you, surprised you acknowledged them more so that you were aware of it. Didn't think you had the intelligence. @Indifference -What would Snowy do? Nothing. What should he do? Adapt. -If not adapt, stop give impression he is running an open plot RP. -Your RP, same issue. Doesn't look at all open in planning stages. -If powder keg summoned, needs to be plausible. If plausible LoAF'er idiocy. -If some ideas "good" then "contribution made. Accomplished submitting a "good idea" not just flaming/criticizing. -I'll find out about those when? Hasn't happened before. Not from you. -Past is important in making future. -Opinions changing, doesn't change past mistakes. -Don't care about your person. -No difference between GM'ing and Rper, don't change attitude regardless of position. -Scared people not worth my time, and I not theirs. @Fucking around -Contrary to Phoenix's Human nature, "lean toward making my last days as little a burden to someone else as possible" not beneficial short or long term. @Selizara -Point of run/fight = Capture results in execution or imprisonment. -LoAF's returning!, Wasting time in prison. Not work well together. -Helenos attacking, Fort blowing up, not much difference plot wise. Snowy did not offer solution. -Snowy incompetence mutual agreement, why raise "if's" which is uncontrollable. -Snowy "improvement" useless unless Snowy reads this. (Unlikely) -My objective is not to help, improve or make friends. -Incompetence of others not my fault, I provided warning, your choices not to listen. -Selizara unfixable, Point is to end, not fix. -Elysimma significant portion of RP, not important = 40% of this RP unimportant? -Flawed logic, why does nation have to like group? Because two idiots made characters from nation? -Solution to survive = GTFO, offered previous to Selizara, not taken. -Group split occured as early as Cobalt Caves, no reason it can't happen again. -Death Immunity acknowledged and abused as early as Ch1. "Turns out" = You slow, or wrong term. -Funny? At first, repetitive and quickly got boring. Same logic as Kanami explosions, Katies "Love me Iso!", Helios's "dreams" etcetc -Panic? Too deeply rooted in RP, get a life? -Example in future? Same concept as "I told you so" which I can do with several points. (Under the branch of heading to Ilyhina) -Your bad plan, you initiated it with Lightning, and lost control of. Seige situation collective responsibility of you and Lightning. Selizara: Infact my role in Selizara was to end the crap. After Istample I relinquished any control of the plot I'd driven since Iso caused the inn fire. Which apparently transferred to Lightning sending soldiers to Istample (Snowy established Ilyphina<->Border was one day) So to keep his ideas making sense, the soldiers had to arrive (My PM to you to notice soldiers). Celest attack, Cobalt caves. I did ask for something to happen in the cobalt caves and nothing did. (I was opposed to it's existence). I stopped complaining about heading to Ilyphina, and let Ether direct us to Selizara. Once we'd arrived you and Lightning decided to summon the Invincible Cavalry. If there's one person to blame for Selizara, it's not Snowy, you or myself. But Lightning. :/ At this stage I'd had enough, and figured keeping the plot in Lightning/your hands was hopeless and took back control. I might not have helped. But I didn't make the situation worse like others did. -Prison was an issue for you, you stated prior that you were "Panic"-sticken. -Back then the dominant idea was escape of court trial. Court trial obviously is a bad idea unless we have a lawyer in our midst. -Odd jobs for Conrad wouldn't work. -(Fuck I'm not putting the RP in Lightnings hands after Selizara <_< Conrads done enough damage thanks) -Slavery work = Chances to escape, Elysimma be stupid to let the group remain together. Some immediately sent away (Damian to Halton, Chase to the chopping block) -Work for crimes: Murder, Resisting arrest, arson, Killing Lieutenant(?) Celeste. Wasting military resources. We'll be in Elysimma paying our debt long after the LoAF has actually returned. -Work for crimes = Another poor plan by Phoenix. -Found a post, my third quote lists the same thing back then http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19567&view=findpost&p=1033742 -Escape was done by Cynthia yes. However I raised the idea of Bandit raiding (Reika) the group before they arrived in Elysimma. Not sure if I raised it with Cynthia or Snowy. Most likely Cynthia cause I was appalled with Snowy. If not. I dreamed it and was going to have Dalton/Jones+Bandits attack the weary army. Since cynthia had her mage trio do it. Bandit army was shifted to attacking fortified Ilyphina. @Working together -Same shit is brought over, since a conclusion/answer is never attained. -You're the one that brings up the inn fire, I was happy with it. :/ -Wanted people to work together? Did you try to work with someone? -All bitching about being criminals? Who was? Why things didn't work out when we (supposedly) all wanted our criminal status revoked? Common goal, no solution. Reason is simple. Everyone didn't want the status revoked. Snowy: Didn't care, just wanted to get to TISME for the winged whore. Kiryn: Didn't care, just wanted the bickering/arguing to stop. Cynthia: Didn't care, She was speaking through Morgan and just trying to gather CW's. Ether: Didn't care, he probably thought Elysimma would treat him like royalty Phoenix: Wanted to mix in Viveka, and was supposedly working on a plan with Lightning. Lightning: Is an idiot. Thought Conrad could clear them of all crimes by waving his hand. Kanami: WANTED TO GTFO! Kai: ...... No idea, but I doubt he cared about criminal status either Bal: Can't remember Bals stance, think he was happy to have Tessa go where ever (Didn't care) as long as it was with the group. (Tessa was a lonely and had nowhere to go) Snike: Too new to matter. Do you understand why we weren't working towards clearing out names now? Also, I read this comment and felt I had to respond, regardless of how late it was. Once again, well said snowy. And even if it was a democracy, you'd be outvoted Naddy. If this was fucking democracy, a retard like you wouldn't be in government, GTFO!@Answered Questions (Or do you think I was fighting with the people that I wasn't cooperating with?) -This.... however were you cooperating with the right people? Selizara -Were you cooperating at all? (or it was simply determined that I was better off cutting my losses and breaking away?) Elitist, and very damaging to the plot you were supposedly trying to make work. (My cooperating is never toward my own subplots) -Shanice, nuff said (Only cooperation?) -Cooperation isn't the fix, neither is pausing it and making people look at it. -Solution is to "Think" everyone's capable of it, even Psych/Kai -Granted time to "Think" was minimal, but it makes more sense to say "Think about what you're posting" (Takes time), rather then "Don't post for the next 30 minutes". -Issue was invincibility or character death protection. -Idiots (most of you) under-thought life threats, "We can do whatever we want, we can't die anyway" @Interactions -I can up the insults if that's what you're requesting? @Immaturity -Get a life, really <_< You need it more then I do. @Human Nature -If human nature looks at long term as well -People don't listen to you if they hate you and your constantly bitching at them" (Ignore) [Your ideology] -You do ignore them, and focus on the less important explanations that follow, hence this "Point" format. (I don't know what went wrong but it won't again because in the next Rp we'll work together to solve our problems!) -If you still think this, go back to hospital and get a brain transplant. -It's not limited to Psych and me either. Everyone in LoAF (Even Bal) has offended at one stage. Solution: Don't give idiots the plot, for any duration, if they want to be a Helios and have seizures on the side, fine. Just don't let them take the main plot. If you're one of the idiots. Scrap that RP now since you shouldn't be controlling the main plot. Restricting them to reactive posts isn't the end of the world. Same could be said for me in the plot control sense. However if I'm happy with the main plot I don't take a hold of it. One error is fine. A strain of errors makes me quit or do a "worlds end" act. In this case I opted for the later. I was under the impression Psych had already taught you this. (Snowy quitting) -It's not the first time he's claimed to quit apparently, if he does.... good riddance. @Conclusion -<_< Finally~ -I doubt anyone wanted to go to the Capitol, most of you were just too slow to acknowledge Snowy was a bad plotter. And had "faith" in the GM. -If we were at Bordertown now, I wonder how many would still opt to go to Ilyphina. -Other inns? Even Snowy would have stepped in there and solved it plausibly by saying criminal status didn't carry over between nations. Halton the conqueror wouldn't have. Doubt Septimus would have either. Though the two nations have been warped from the original layout :/ @Hate -Conclusion wasn't the last section T_T -Why be vague? And why not include yourself properly? -If you don't "fucking know" then you wouldn't have told me people were ignoring me out of "hate" -You forgot Kiryn -Esau actually makes more sense then....you :/ -Hate was obvious in Selizara, I don't need to be told who hated me to be honest, I know who, and to what degrees (to an extent). -You are a hypocrite. -Truce is a lie, no agreement was reached. Proof is infront of us, these posts. -Every time you mention cooperation it'll remind me. I offered cooperation, you're the one who rejected it citing untested beliefs. "You'll screw them up anyway" -Ignored from my last post so reposted I want to work with others/I want to baby my plots away from others.Lets cooperate/ I don't want to listen to you cause I hate you. No one listens to you cause you're rude/ I(Phoenix) listen to you I want to improve everyone's RP experience/I don't care about improvement You're an experienced RP'er and we're newbs/What you say doesn't work (Combined with next) You know what you were doing we didn't/We don't agree with what your ideas and don't care about them. People aren't going to read text which slanders them/.....Self explanatory you idiot? What are you doing now? @Politics Or be in the media as a disgraced minister/public servant for bankrupting the country with poorly thought out plans and projects. Edited October 11, 2010 by Kanami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inactive Account Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 ...Okay is this even really RP feedback anymore? It seems more like RP'er feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanami Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 RP'er Feedback is still RP feedback. Unless an Rp'er isn't part of the RP? Alternatively, if it's an issue for you, I can make a LoAF RP'er Feedback thread? :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inactive Account Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 It just sort of seems like "Kanami and Phoenix having their textwall argument, mainly about what either one of them says and does" rather than "Kanami and Phoenix discussing the LoAF RP as a whole" at this point. To be fair I am seeing a lot of things that are about the RP as a whole, but it seems to mostly be addressed at one person (by both parties) which makes it less likely that others will get much out of it. ...Also up until this point I'm not entirely sure why I was involved in the argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 Just so you know, I'm kind of thinking the RP is sort of...meh right now. So outsider feedback is appreciated now. Not so much on length of posts but on how to clean up stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 I think the RP is just moving slower personally, so it's less engaging in a sense. A note for the Illyphina incident, we didn't really have any other plot hooks at the time. Snowy seemed to be pushing for us to go to TISME, so I think we all went along with that to some extent. At the time I don't think people felt comfortable trying to herd the group to Halton/Septimus whatever when we had no plans there/didn't know what they were like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) I'm really pissed off at Snowy because of him screwing his own plot up like this. Snowy, the whole LOAF is not evil is bullshit. Why? Because what's the point of the quest then? Nothing! All of this is for nothing! Secondly, this has been done to death in all sorts of fiction, the evil turning out not to be evil all along. What next, the heroes were responsible for everything? It's extremely hypocritical of you to bash Morgan and Kelas and Charlotte for not being original, and then turn around and do the exact same thing, except this affects all of us and the plot. Edited October 11, 2010 by Yoshimitsu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 11, 2010 Author Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) What I don't understand is your desire to muscle the plot into the thing you desire it to be Sage. You've second-guessed motives of characters when they were explained point blank or weren't hidden at all. LoAF is not evil. Not in the 'I want to rule the world' sense or anything like it. Helenos is the big bad, and I would LOVE to post more with her seeing as she is the big villain. Also, in case you weren't paying attention, the 'heroes' did cause most of the problems. Kaileen made a deal with Helenos to seal the LoAF away thinking it would be for the better of the world. It wasn't. Didn't it strike you as obvious that they weren't good when the 'best' heroes experimented on their own children or secluded themselves away from the world? I never called Kelas 'unoriginal'. I called Morgan unoriginal for being a expy of Morrigan from DA:O, which she was for quite a long time. I dislike Charlotte for being pretty much a Disney Princess, which Cynthia has admitted she is trying to be. At least in her original form, Morigan was not 'original' in any overt way save for world adaptation. There is a difference between a trope (the evil god not being evil in this case) and a expy/ripe/cliche. I suggest you learn it before you try to rip on me for this again. If I had made him point-blank evil, would it suddenly have stopped being cliche then? No. Either the LoAF is evil, or he isn't. There is no middle ground. The less-cliche of the two is not evil to be sure. I've also addressed my 'incompetence' issues in the past. I am BUSY IRL! Currently I'm trying to pull my Spanish grade up, similar to Kelas and her programming. I don't even get home from college usually until 6. When I get home, I study/eat dinner until 8, at which point I am expected to raid. What posting and inter-activity you get (as well as my ability to read and catch up) comes only from those moments where I am at a breaking point. If I am lucky, there will not be raids on a night, and I can post and catch up here better. That is rare. I have offered on several occasions to step down as a GM and let someone else take over. I lack the time to be a proper GM and my ability is not enough to make up for it currently. Edited October 11, 2010 by Snowy_One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 The issue is, the Lord of Azure flames is a goddamn demon king! He's Satan! I know the heroes were the cause of the problems somewhat, I meant that they were the ones who were the most evil people ever. LoAF wanted to destroy everything. He has demons working for him! Who want to kill and rape people. You cannot say with a straight face he is not evil. If he was not, then why did he try to destroy things? Why were the heroes even necessary then? What was the point of sealing him away if he wasn't evil? You're completely undermining your own plot. It is illogical to call the demon king not evil. It makes no sense. Actually, the whole "Big bad we thought was evil really wasn't" has been done nearly as much as pure evil. But the thing is, in this case, the plot works a lot better if he was just evil or not evil. Also your statement on there is no middle ground between good and evil is flawed. If that was true, why would we have debates on morality for instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 Meh. Don't count on it. I didn't change my opinion so we would agree with each other more or something. I changed it because I would have been lying to myself if I hadn't and then there's the aforementioned mental snap that happens about twice a year. Either way, we'll see what I think of all of this right now. @ Posts Hard to call someone like you an evil rotten rper when your stance on things is so incredibly neutral that in another rp what you did may have had positive results overall. Thing with LoAF is that it didn't apply well here, possibly because of the rper layout. By the way I didn't bother trying to find a category for you though I suspected it was reactive if any. You'd already told me you didn't plan things out much and simply reacted to a situation in a way that made sense to you. When I say detached I simply mean that yours or some other reactive's character's suffering isn't going to cause OOC responses. Not really saying the situations were always meaningless to a reactive player no matter the circumstances though some might have been. @ Experience (14s) Hey, I was trying to fit into this category at one point since I have a somewhat useless interest in statistics on characters. Remember I'd read my way through a couple of rps at some point in the past(short ones) and wasn't particularly interested(partly cause interaction seemed boring anyway at the time). Finally got curious when LoAF sprang up and wanted to try one with stats in the mix since I'd never heard of such a thing. The problems listed may not have been exclusive to one group but this is where I spotted them the most. Besides I won't try to force a point that says only a plotter can get defensive or only a 14 can be obsessed with being superior than some other character when it's not evident. In other places of the rp with competing taking place it was extremely lax, and I don't remember it actually causing what I thought then to be actual problems. Come to think of it the only conflicts that come to mind that still are causing actual problems regarding rules and regs is LoAF vs Psych, case 2054 *shrugs* If people who are active in LoAF now are still enjoying this and Psych hasn't caused the apocalypse in-world then I guess that's something. Again, just goes to show that there really isn't anything to worry about right now. People are talking and solutions are being offered. I will say straight out that it's just a little weird for me to be looking in chat to see us united (though I'm unlikely to post since I don't necessarily have anything new to add atm) somewhat against roll fudging, but we couldn't think our way out of criminal charges because it just had to happen right then and there and by the end of that chapter no matter what. Clear us or bust basically. You're putting people into the categories anyway aren't you? :/ XD -Change isn't good or bad because like any new stance it has pros and cons from a certain point of view. Pros: I can function in a crisis and not worry about the outcome even if it actually is a TPK rp over scenario. Cons: I really don't feel like offering any actual solutions that don't involve making people slow the hell down if things are moving faster than they ought to be given the level of the crisis. Furthermore I don't think that there really are solutions, just different outcomes. Now while you may not see this as a con, I still do for the moment since this makes me virtually useless as anything other than a passive observer and commenter which hasn't worked yet in regards to LoAF. We've had enough "passive observers". @ Styles Noted. And I might. @ Lecture Hold your horses, Cuddles. Bal is controlling Helios right now and kept him in character in favor of an energy blast that was just hilarious. Couple that with anything I may or may not have done in response (like causing a magical reaction of some varying degree ... which I did but in this case not maliciously, just for shock value) and things could have gone any number of ways. Not complaining here cause I actually thought it was funny but it has a slight inn fire parallel in that one person can post something, and the other person can actually start a chain reaction for better or worse. Bringing up plausibility is an old fad anyway. I no longer have issues with plausibility. What I do is talk with whoever's around and if it comes up that something I'm doing's not makes any sense character-wise, I evaluate the hell out of it just in case, and then come back with my final answer. I'm not going to bitch at other people about what they're doing since there are other people who'll always vantage me anyway. Snike is notorious for hitting an issue before most others. If I lectured you on plausibility recently or something then just discard the argument. It's clearly not important enough for me to remember. @ Nerd Rage That was a scenario where again, plausibility wasn't an issue for me after a time. I was whining about balance in stat battle set ups because the party being forced into a fight they couldn't win twice in a row was counter-productive. I was just annoyed at the demons and decided to ask if I could kill them off though I was a bit sneaky and didn't specify where I didn't feel I had to. I asked if I could "end the fight". People were apparently sick of the battle themselves and I think Luna gave me the go ahead. Boom. Gae-Borg II ... eh close enough. As for Iso surviving ... one thing I tried to make clear from the very beginning is that Iso's own fires couldn't hurt him unless he was cauterizing his wounds. Kiryn suggest giving him the ability to burn his wounds shut and I went with it since it would explain his miracle skill whereas Morgan has/d some sort of life saving spell. Cauterizing wounds keeps you from bleeding out so it seemed decent enough since Iso had a high pain tolerance in the beginning and wouldn't cry like a girl every time he did it. @ Psych Section I won't say I didn't do at least one workshop though that was a joke that people jumped at. Like I said and always say, Live and Learn. I didn't know it wouldn't work at the time. In RL I have to do things like this from time to time and it usually works if only so I can get some peace and quiet when I need it. As for pointless and unproductive, I have to ask what's more pointless than the exact same fight between Chase and Helios happening but in a different inn? I don't really mind fights mind you, but they weren't in character fights. It was brought up in chat numerous times that what was really going on in those events was just one rper instigating something and the other continuing it. Fighting is fine, I don't mind having my characters bicker with others, but this is one of those areas where I'd rather have the mention of some type of argument come up, and then perhaps decide (in this case negotiation though I'd base it on getting to an outcome, at this point since I honestly don't have a reason to care about some random plot fight that'll disappear in the ocean of other plot battles over the course of a STAT rp, in other words not be competitive about the outcome and flaunt my character) on what actually happens via pm and then post it, whether in pieces or as one post doesn't matter. "Quick" fixes are something I'm also getting tired of as well as the general kind. As for discussions. I'd call for them as a GM if I had the needed respect a GM tends to start off with, but I doubt in the same situation we'd really come to a "good" solution overall. Too bad Harold would have come up way too many times. @ Productivity Mismanagement? I define mismanagement as handling a situation recklessly, carelessly, haphazardly, or without any foresight. If you're worried about bad things happening then foresight is something that ought to be invested in. At least a couple of points. In my case, I assumed that dealing with magical fire let me bend the rules on physics essentially and didn't bother having anything actually catch on fire at the inn and tried to snuff them out worried that something bad would happen if we just let the fires burn ... hmmm .... In other cases I think it's just a general lack of foresight. I don't mind people doing stupid things, but if they're going to end up in a horrible situation as a direct result(Good examples with Percy, Celeste, and such), they shouldn't complain about it rather than search for a solution. This is why I was fishing for solutions to the criminal arch in chapter six. People wanted them and so did I but we didn't discuss it so much as zomg at how close things were getting to us actually being killed off and just each post our 2 cents before acting as hastily as possible before another rper went and did something even more stupid. Again, I don't mind arguing, but in the case of Helios vs Chase, it always came across as an OOC slugfest between Kai and Lightning which I can only qualify as a water down, and a really bad idea. If they were instead interacting with each other going for some kind of epic rivalry between characters then it would have been less of a spammy annoyance. It may have never actually started a war between the party and the police, but with your help, it easily could have. The modding live guards to dead ones comes to mind(Kamilla cavalry is the new reference to them). I think they were yours anyway so that wasn't so much a mod as simply deciding on something, hence I didn't complain and simply rolled my eyes and moved on. Talk about final destination though :/ (haven't seen those movies? I recommend seeing them just to give yourself some ideas on how to deal with characters just by using a breeze and a horrifyingly precise domino effect) Restrictions aren't my thing either. There's a difference between restricting players and players restricting themselves though neither's really necessary unless avoiding a potential problem is the desired outcome. Common sense, restriction of one's own actions, whatever you want to call it. WATER TOME INSERT: Can't remember how the water tome effected any element of the story actually. Just a battle with Helenos. Don't even know where Mana keeps the damn thing or why it was brought into existence if there isn't going to be a water mage on the team. I'm not really for or against anything water tome related since on one hand we've got a useless tome, and one the other hand we have a custom class that I'll be damned if there won't be a huge scuffle in chat over. I'm content to just let the thing sit there. If it's not emphasized then it can just disappear on its own. As for the other things ... That's a long list of people that actually "did" help as far as getting us to where we ended up. I don't know if anyone wanted to keep killing the guards but with getting to the capital in mind, again, it was probably assumed something really important had to happen there or the story couldn't progress. @ Evaluators/Kiryn/Luna Eh. No real argument here just yet ... just my being somewhat content with them checking things just before they're implemented (on some occasions right afterward XD ). There's always the edit button. Hell, forget fixing fires by ninja'ing things. We have enough uses of the edit button just fixing up interaction errors. @ Ignoring Now why would I not acknowledge my own mistakes if I can actually spot them? My overall goal is to improve myself in as many ways possible(keep in mind that I mean to improve in the way I myself deem fit. That's important to note so nothing's skewered here though this isn't exclusive to rping obviously, it encompasses everything). As for old issues, bleh. At least I don't delete my own posts for the sake of avoiding a retrograde(plus rp posts generally need to stay in existence for future reference). @ Indifference I am curious how someone can adapt to an actual powder keg if it were somehow made plausible without actually TPKing(I'm only really concerned with premature rp ending scenarios since in this verse it can be quite easily sprung about and more people would bitch about being forcibly killed off than being criminals for a few chapters). What do I agree with you on? You could take a look in places or I could summarize it yet again as I've been doing. We don't have to agree on what better outcomes to situations would have been but I do agree that they went undesirably for us because of us among other things related to that like the awful plans or lack thereof and ignoring the issues. You found an overly fast rp unfavorable and so do I for the moment. @ Fucking around It is beneficial if I find it worth the cost. Keep in mind that short term and long term don't need to be factored into this. Whatever someone's after, be it praise for supposedly living like a saint, or a simple experience, it's about what they want and what they're willing to do to get it. @ Selizara Again, the entire situation sucked, but we shouldn't have worried about it since that effected how we approached it. It's like sticking the general colonel (because they've generally done most of the strategic work) of an army on the frontlines and then expecting his strategies to be formulated around winning rather than saving his own neck. LoAF: As for rushing because the LoAF is returning, I couldn't care less about him as far as being an enemy/neutral/anything is concerned, not because if and when he shows up it will most likely be plot convenient, but because as I said before, the story can be changed to fit what's going on. The LoAF could have broken free in the time it took us to get to Istample and there'd have been nothing we could have done about it, or he could have broken free in another twenty-five years. It didn't matter back then and it won't until the final cues come in. The characters didn't know that, but I as an rper should have figured though I had no indications of any possibilities like that until looking at the whole rp and how it's gone thus far. The LoAF was just another variable that could have functioned for or against us. Helenos: >_> Ifs: I raised them for ease of analysis. Back then it was fight or run. It didn't have to be, but I'm done with ifs for now anyway since my only reason in bringing them up was to point out that myself and a few others didn't need to fret over how fucked we apparently were since the LoAF himself couldn't have killed us if he wanted to for the sake of plot convenience. Forget death immunity and catering which is why some things become implausible in the first place. No consequences is almost incentive for people to do stupid/reckless things. Elysima is 40%: You can say 40%, but all I see is one territory that we can't go to until our appearances and group size change. Oh look Iso cut his hair and changed into a different outfit. I guess we can head back now. Not good enough? Okay well how about we just drag all the relevant people out of Elysima for awhile then? We did it for the grand ball without a hitch and it could easily happen again in Jerdon or Halton. Most relevant characters in LoAF tend to move around at lightspeed anyway so I really don't see a problem with leaving alone a country we've effectively cut ourselves off from already. Does Elysima have any purpose whatsoever if Harold and Percy die? Mana's with us now so I don't see any other reason to hang around there. In closing I actually am starting to think that YES 40% of the rp is unimportant. Places tend to serve as meeting spots we have to get to since people don't travel places until after they meet us(Kaileen being an exception). Fluff is fluff. Flawed Logic: A nation doesn't have to like the group. I personally didn't say "like" us. Not outside the savior scenario. I preferred they just use us like tools since they could and it is beneficial for all involved since said tools get to live on plausibility. When Conrad was created Lightning was going to have him join the group to seek his own country through helping to save the world. Not unlike what Jace has managed to accomplish in some ways being a hero and in such a high position of influence that he can actually just start his own country with some proper set up. I didn't make Viveka so that Elysima would like us and in fact I just wanted a pegasus knight that was an officer in that particular military who would be assigned to help them(or lose her career due to their BS and pull a Reika :/ ). I went to Lightning to see if she could just be one of his more notable and useful Lieutenants so it would ease the process and we wouldn't have some weird thing going on where two completely random Elysimian military poodles join the group. One of my more expectant ideas where it felt like it would work at the time. Simply put, the goal wasn't to like, merely to mix in two from that place. *shrugs* Solution: It's nice to have the apparent one and only sensible answer and I certainly won't make the mistake of having a situation built to rely solely on the group reaching a particular place rather than a particular person, but what's it matter that the only way to survive plausibly to GTFO if no one was willing to actually do it for fear of plot derailment? Plot vs Plausibility won that round. Group Split: I've been wondering but don't need feedback on this. Group splitting seems to be unfavorable for some reason. Whether it's the CW thing or the likelihood of getting picked off being all alone or something related to stat battles I don't know but I personally don't mind the party going separate ways and venturing off into the world(depending on what happens, they might end up alone in a desert, or interacting with an entirely different set of characters ... or both at once). I do know that it will dramatically increase the chance of people losing interest and leaving not having constant interaction and the TSing they'll do to get from place to place will completely destroy the time space continuim, but gluing a party together isn't much of an improvement either. I'd say let people just rp and if someone's got a reason to leave, let them. If someone had a reason to join, let them. As long as it actually made sense there wouldn't be a need to fuss over it though I'm still working on this. @ Immunity Wrong term yes. Just saying that in hindsight, I shouldn't have cared one way or the other about "danger" @ Selizara controls -Cobalt Caves: Useless, yes, but I didn't care either way since at least there was a bit of landscape added that wasn't just dirt roads and forests. -Prison: Was an issue at first. I thought it was something to be avoided at any and all cost but changed sides even after everyone else decided they didn't want to go to jail either. I wouldn't have minded it in the end if it was the best solution. I currently don't mind party members spending months in prison either. People have character ideas all the time and use them. I personally know I could drop a character off the map for awhile and just spring up a new one to use in the meantime and still enjoy the rp. As for a CW going to jail ... well I guess it's a jailbreak then since the LoAF is coming! @ Odd jobs Well there's a new perspective. I'd assumed Damian and Chase would be a problem since Chase somehow pissed off Conrad, and Damian is Damian but I forgot that in this rp Elysima wasn't at war with any other countries and wouldn't have a reason to make a concession or two for the sake of free grunts. That's actually a good point. Without something to keep the group in line them working for the military wouldn't work. I've always imagined military powerhouse countries always having some type of willingness to pull stunts like the one I proposed. As for escaping, we were in Elysima. Snowy invented a new gadget every time it was convenient to do so. Not always implausible either since magic is a slight inventors safezone in the rp. Ixion attaches mana threads to people's heads to keep track of where they are and what they're doing. I don't find it a stretch for something similar to be done in the military to keep track of trouble or slave squads. Keeping them all together isn't necessary either since group splits within factions aren't a bad thing (in fact it was actually suggested that if the group gets involved in the war that they be broken down into squads. Not that we won't squabble over this on some level but it is an idea) Actually keeping the group from escaping? That depends on the context. If they're operating out in the desert it's pretty much a guaranteed escape unless fliers are involved. It's not solid but I wouldn't complain with a little help getting it to work if it gave the group something to do besides hang since they wouldn't run. @ Working together We've both brought up the inn fire in pms. Sometimes I start it. Sometimes you do while making some old comparison. I don't care what the ratio is. As for being happy with it, good for you. I'm almost content. Not happy or unhappy. Me trying to work with someone: Yes, I did, do, and will continue to do so though less so on the working angle as I'm tired of thinking about things. I couldn't get everyone to work together the way I'd initially meant to. Oh well. I did get some to though and these are the individuals I tend to spend the majority of my time interacting with. I'm not currently avoiding or seeking out anyone for any actual work. Just rping and seeing what's going to happen next. Clearing our names failure: Yes I do. Thank you for clearing that up for me. @ Answering questions In hindsight, no. Working with you involved doing things that contradicted Snowy, and according to your recent analysis, most others would have been useless in fixing selizara (which at the time was the goal, especially mine since everything hinted at Plot>Everything else) Cooperation levels: Depends on which episode we're talking about. Selizara? Up until the fortress itself, I'd been taking any suggestions that came up even from you. After I thought up a plan of my own, I stopped cooperating and hoped to simply haul the party off to the capital. Shanice: Read what I wrote up again. I said people are generous(or just want in on this demon thing). I don't recall coming to other people and asking them to make demons to help Shanice. Still haven't done it and I never will because from the beginning that wasn't my intention for Shanice. Others came to me and I honestly didn't mind. It's one of the elements of the rp that's been interesting for me overall. Think Solution: You call it a solution. I call it low probability without incentives. Do you have any of those I could borrow? Pausing to think: That's not how I would have done it(and my way isn't meant to be better, it's just what I would do). I would have simply told them not to post and get in chat so we could discuss some things. From there I would have quickly gone over what I was going to do depending on their actions(assuming I'm controlling the authorities or what ever other variables are involved). How much authority would have been behind the "Get in here!" bit would have been left vague since I'm not one for actually pausing time :/ Invincibility issue: Agreed. No solutions though, other than mental balance and ... maybe a bit of detachment from one's own characters. @ Interaction If it takes longer to read, don't. I'd rather stick to the issues since that's my real interest anyway. @ Human Nature What you're suggesting requires touching on pretty much everything said instead of the summaries. In which case I'd like you to just leave out all future insults if you're going to try to make some point that I ignore you based on not commenting on those :/ Your Solution: I know all of this already. It's why I'm deliberating on some major issues that could come up right now with latter parts of the rp. What I don't know is what I should do in a situation where the party is about to effectively kill themselves off. I don't think I should have to save them or kick plausibility in the teeth. @ Conclusion Winding down section I was trying to say that there was a chance that we would end up being branded as criminals in another country by the time we reached those capitals for crimes committed within those countries. I was basically saying if we made it our goal to reach the capital of another nation we would inevitably kill guards in that country and end up doing the same thing. In fact we already have. Do you know how badly we embarrassed the Septimian military on our way to the capital(Burgosas)? In fact I think the only reason we aren't Septimian bandits now is because you weren't involved in some way and no one was interested in making things worse this time. There was basically a general defense that the guys we killed had it coming because they mistook us for doing something we weren't actually doing. It was all a little meh but I didn't care by then and was only involved in the actual stat battle. @ Hate Vague: Hell. Pick your own reason and run with it. I'm not interested in going into that again. Knowing: It's called vague memory. I leave it at that. Kiryn: Eh. Nothing between you two is all that clear other than she starts acting like Amari does when the demons show up. Truce: I said I sought a truce. I didn't say I succeeded. There's no lie here. I stated an intention, not the outcome. Cooperating with you: Not interested in my reasons back then. They were what they were. Right now it doesn't matter unless we're in the same rp and it'll never be addressed until we are. @ Ignored quote One at a time. These are hardly word for word and my intentions are skewered but I'll bite. I want to work with others/I want to baby my plots away from others. The first is me willing to work with others. The second is a later date where I still don't mind working with others, but by default will keep things I'm writing away from the main group unless people want to get involved. Lets cooperate/ I don't want to listen to you cause I hate you. Willing to. Won't force it. The second says I didn't want to work with you because I had no faith in anything but a negative outcome. No one listens to you cause you're rude/ I(Phoenix) listen to you Earliest points in the rp. New stances can sometimes conflict with old ones. If you think I ignore you then you're cracked. If you think I ignored you in the rp, it's true in some instances. If you think I still would, it isn't even relevant. I want to improve everyone's RP experience/I don't care about improvement Wasn't a goal originally but thought it worth trying. Don't remember the context the second fits into. Specify next time. You're an experienced RP'er and we're newbs/What you say doesn't work (Combined with next) You know what you were doing we didn't/We don't agree with what your ideas and don't care about them. For the first set, I was pointing out that you had an advantage in terms of rping(having an advantage doesn't equate to being good at rping. That's not what I meant, nor did I mean you were actually obligated to assist though I did make a point to ask anyway). The second? Don't know where either of those fit into this but the top one sounds like it's actually aimed at you not being effective at producing positive results for LoAF as a whole, not being a bad rper. The bottom one was probably my opinion on the rpers' most likely stance regarding you back at a given time as a whole. I can't do much more without context. Sorry. People aren't going to read text which slanders them/.....Self explanatory you idiot? What are you doing now? Was never referring to myself, Cuddles. I tend to refer to myself directly with words like "I" or "myself" in conversations. I read whatever I feel like reading. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 I love how I just skip through the text to where my name is relevant, and yet I still have no part of this argument. I never even read the chapters before me, and thusly, my opinion on the situation is nothing. Kiryn! Run! D: They'll post more text walls! Snowy mixed up Kelas with Kiryn. >_> What I don't understand is your desire to muscle the plot into the thing you desire it to be Sage. This is like all the problems I have with Sage ever, coupled with Alf's ability to only be a rug that insists that everyone must like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 11, 2010 Author Share Posted October 11, 2010 The issue is, the Lord of Azure flames is a goddamn demon king! He's Satan! I know the heroes were the cause of the problems somewhat, I meant that they were the ones who were the most evil people ever. LoAF wanted to destroy everything. He has demons working for him! Who want to kill and rape people. You cannot say with a straight face he is not evil. If he was not, then why did he try to destroy things? Why were the heroes even necessary then? What was the point of sealing him away if he wasn't evil? You're completely undermining your own plot. It is illogical to call the demon king not evil. It makes no sense. Actually, the whole "Big bad we thought was evil really wasn't" has been done nearly as much as pure evil. But the thing is, in this case, the plot works a lot better if he was just evil or not evil. Also your statement on there is no middle ground between good and evil is flawed. If that was true, why would we have debates on morality for instance? --- Now now, where did I say that? I already said multiple times in OOC, or whenever the topic of the demon-kings alignment has come up that he isn't evil. He just believes in a 'make the world stronger by providing it with a legitimate threat' type of raising up the world as opposed to the goddess who wants to intercede for every little wrong. He is not evil. He made evil demons so that there would be a universal threat for the world to fight. There was no need to seal him away either. Kaileen chose to do so from her poor understanding of the situation and allied with Helenos to do it; a deal Helenos made so she could remove both the LoAF and Goddess from the picture and free the world from the two deities (and possibly take control over it in the process). Lastly, the question on if evil is absolute or not is one of 'what is evil' and not 'what is grey' or 'is there even good/evil'. I'm not looking forwards to getting into such an argument at this time though. Moral fights never end well. Also, Phoenix and cuddles, why don't you two just admit it already? We all know you are in love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) Now now, where did I say that? I already said multiple times in OOC, or whenever the topic of the demon-kings alignment has come up that he isn't evil. He just believes in a 'make the world stronger by providing it with a legitimate threat' type of raising up the world as opposed to the goddess who wants to intercede for every little wrong. He is not evil. He made evil demons so that there would be a universal threat for the world to fight. There was no need to seal him away either. Kaileen chose to do so from her poor understanding of the situation and allied with Helenos to do it; a deal Helenos made so she could remove both the LoAF and Goddess from the picture and free the world from the two deities (and possibly take control over it in the process). Ok. Let's say God did that. If God did that to his people to make the world stronger, he'd be the most dickish being ever. People have DIED for this so called "strengthening". There is plenty of evil in the world without putting in a bunch of demons. Take Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's Al Ghul may have good intentions but he is evil because of his actions. The actions being murder and arson and the like. A Knight Templar. It's the same with LoAF. @Psych I want plots to make sense. Also you clearly have no understanding of Alf. He wants to help people he wants to be good and not end up like bandits. It's part of his core concept. Edited October 11, 2010 by Yoshimitsu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) What I don't understand is your desire to muscle the plot into the thing you desire it to be Sage. A) What plot? B) This sounds a bit unfair to pin on just Sage, considering that various other people, myself included, have been influencing the plot. You've second-guessed motives of characters when they were explained point blank or weren't hidden at all. LoAF is not evil. Not in the 'I want to rule the world' sense or anything like it. The very premise of the demons killing people off and taking weapons and such totally shatters this image. If he isn't so bad, then why can't his servants just go and ask the wielders to set their boss free? Like, literally, all it would take is a demon in human for, asking one of the wielders to go hit the seal, and boom, the lord is free. Why is it that they go and sever and try to kill the wielders? Helenos is the big bad, and I would LOVE to post more with her seeing as she is the big villain. So, the Dragon that doesn't do anything is the big villain? So far, I'd argue that any of the recurring human antagonists are more evil then her. And, why can't you post with her more? Also, in case you weren't paying attention, the 'heroes' did cause most of the problems. Kaileen made a deal with Helenos to seal the LoAF away thinking it would be for the better of the world. It wasn't. Didn't it strike you as obvious that they weren't good when the 'best' heroes experimented on their own children or secluded themselves away from the world? This is where evil versus evil comes into play. Now, with the LoAF around, there was all but three nations that got razed, and people died left, right, center. Altogether, a crapsack world. Now, without him, there is relative peace in play, despite bandits and other misfortunes which afflict most. A bit of a crappy would, but not as bad as the constant death and destruction before the LoAF. Kaileen made the right choice, I would say, since the death toll is drastically lower than the one during the LoAF years. If you say otherwise, I'm going to have to ask what substance you are on. And I'd like to argue that in some ways, the 'corrupt' heroes are more productive than the uncorrupt. I mean, Jace is trying to unite the continent under his rule, which could help restore the continent, whereas Kaileen has been doing absolutely nothing, from day 1. I never called Kelas 'unoriginal'. I called Morgan unoriginal for being a expy of Morrigan from DA:O, which she was for quite a long time. I dislike Charlotte for being pretty much a Disney Princess, which Cynthia has admitted she is trying to be. At least in her original form, Morigan was not 'original' in any overt way save for world adaptation. You called Kelas weird and uninteresting, so, you have Sage there. As for the unoriginality comment, if you haven't noticed, originality is overrated, to an extent, when regarding characters. If they're characterized solidly, it isn't a problem. If they aren't, well, that IS a problem. Said problem affects the quality of writing and story, which is never good. There is a difference between a trope (the evil god not being evil in this case) and a expy/ripe/cliche. I suggest you learn it before you try to rip on me for this again. If I had made him point-blank evil, would it suddenly have stopped being cliche then? No. Either the LoAF is evil, or he isn't. There is no middle ground. The less-cliche of the two is not evil to be sure. Has anyone informed you that cliches are not bad? In this case, it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be non-evil, unless you're going to turn around and say that his minions are misguided, which creates another slew of problems altogether. If you make him evil, on the other hand, we might actually have a glint of a plot. This isn't an issue with the originality. It's an issue of writing. I've also addressed my 'incompetence' issues in the past. I am BUSY IRL! Currently I'm trying to pull my Spanish grade up, similar to Kelas and her programming. I don't even get home from college usually until 6. When I get home, I study/eat dinner until 8, at which point I am expected to raid. What posting and inter-activity you get (as well as my ability to read and catch up) comes only from those moments where I am at a breaking point. If I am lucky, there will not be raids on a night, and I can post and catch up here better. That is rare. I have offered on several occasions to step down as a GM and let someone else take over. I lack the time to be a proper GM and my ability is not enough to make up for it currently. Bold: Already been mentioned, but Kelas is not a programmer. Kiryn is. Well, in this particular case, if you wish to step down, why are you arguing antagonists, when another GM could step up and wipe that out? Part 2 First off, please use quotes, or some sort of way to show what you're addressing. Also, I'm aware of how redundant is is. Now now, where did I say that? I already said multiple times in OOC, or whenever the topic of the demon-kings alignment has come up that he isn't evil. He just believes in a 'make the world stronger by providing it with a legitimate threat' type of raising up the world as opposed to the goddess who wants to intercede for every little wrong. He is not evil. He made evil demons so that there would be a universal threat for the world to fight. There was no need to seal him away either. Kaileen chose to do so from her poor understanding of the situation and allied with Helenos to do it; a deal Helenos made so she could remove both the LoAF and Goddess from the picture and free the world from the two deities (and possibly take control over it in the process). Oh, hey. This looks familiar. Snowy, if the lord makes 'evil' demons to do his bidding, as in, to go and destroy humanity, then guess what? HE IS EVIL. It's as simple as that. Just because he provides a universal threat in the hopes of a certain world doesn't mean that those affected want the world to be like that, which would make them, in their eyes, and in ours, EVIL. How is a world united in fear better than a world separated with peace? I'm saying that Kaileen probably dealt with the greater of evils, by joining with the lesser. The fact is, the world is better today than it was 25 years ago, which strongly implies that it was a positive effect that the deities were sealed. Lastly, the question on if evil is absolute or not is one of 'what is evil' and not 'what is grey' or 'is there even good/evil'. I'm not looking forwards to getting into such an argument at this time though. Moral fights never end well. There are various answers as to what is evil, but generally speaking, massacring thousands of innocent people is NOT good-aligned. Also, Phoenix and cuddles, why don't you two just admit it already? We all know you are in love! Get out. Please. Edit: space bar =/= enter key. Edited October 11, 2010 by Snike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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