Genocide and pretty lights

[Tamanoir]

Before going to the meat of the subject, I remembered that one Hero was named Saint Elimine... Yeah, his/her name really fits with the Topic's name...

Read my introduction post again where I elaborated on how the game presents Jahn, a guy who survived a 1000 years buried under rocks after his entire species was exterminated. The game does everything in his power to prevent the player from having any sympathy for him or his species.

Ialso said once that the opening could be the versions of the story as told by the dragons. Maybe even in Arcadia. So,it would be more accurate, but still biased.

Once again, Jahn isn't show negatively. We are shown far more human in a negative way than Dragons.

The closest we have to an ennemy is Chaotic Neutral as best. He is amoral. He doesn't have emotion (Or, more likely doesn't show them/Doesn't have them anymore). The most evil Character in this game is Narshen, who is perfectly human (Though I guess you could reply he's a Dragon Knight. That would be mainly nitpicking)

Then, there's all these example that show that they considered Dragons to be evil, and thus not "Human" in the Humanism sense.

When Athos was surprised that humans and dragons can live together. Hartmut that refused to kill Idoun, just because he saw her just before like a true human being instead of an evil beast. (Though the Dark Dragon's case, it's slightly different.)

I think that this war is closer to the Crusades. (Hell, that's even in the Character names : Roland, Durban/Turpin (Actually, Turpin was a Bishop...), Ganelon (Not used as a name here. What a wasted opportunity. Or maybe it's for the best...), etc.)

And I think you cited Niime talking about Demons.

Demonizing the ennemy to suppress his humanity have been down in every war. Remember the "Barbarians"(Uncivilized salvages that will destroyed the superior Roman and Greek Race), the Crusades, as I alrady mentioned. During WWI, when really no clan was worse than the others, there were talks about Geramns that ate others persons.

As you see, it's extremely easy to demonize, and thus deshumanize people who looks just like you, so imagine how it is with dragons.

Moreover it's a Middle Age type of War. These war were quite different and pretty long (Remember the Thirty Years' War and the Hundred Years' War).

Humans are clearly in the wrong, I agree. But it's not as Black and White as you put it. Dragons tried to survive by any means against their ennemies. Jahn is still continuing long after the war is lost.

Humans believed they did something just(or at least the Heroes. I won't be surprised mainly high authorities were in the now.). So, the Heroes were probably wronged, the Dragons just wanted to survive, and "History" (that wasn't really well developped at that time...) just changed everything to a conflict between the Pure Humans and the Evil Dragons.

Edited January 14, 2013 by TendaSlime

[GoogleKrom]

So humans struck first. Maybe they were in the wrong. But when a war lasts so long that birth rates increase to the point were it makes a difference to the fighting population then it doesn't make a difference who's truck first because everyone is fighting for real. We don't get a lot of info about the scouring (and as I say justifiably so as it happened such a long time ago) but from what we do get it seems, at least to me, that it's a lot more likely humans were fighting for survival just as much as dragons were by the end.

This is very well-said and the bottom line.

[Jotari]

This is very well-said and the bottom line.

Except I said who's truck instead of who struck. Though the image that the entire war started over a debate between dragons and humans over who owned a truck does seem slightly amusing.

[GoogleKrom]

Except I said who's truck instead of who struck. Though the image that the entire war started over a debate between dragons and humans over who owned a truck does seem slightly amusing.

I actually saw that and was tempted to correct it, but decided not to. Figured there were enough condescending asses in this topic as-was.

[WyvernSurfer]

History is written by the victors. Heroes tend to be worshiped no matter how monstrous they truly acted.

D'oh! necro

Edited March 13, 2013 by WyvernSurfer

[Just call me AL]

I'm not even sure it was the victors that were acting monsterous in this case.

[Dwalin2010]

To be honest, I always find very annoying the plots where the humans kick the dragon's butt so easily. Even in fairy tales for children when I was little. If a dragon is so easy to defeat, why is the human who does this viewed as a hero or a strong fighter? In my opinion, humans' victories over dragons should be the minority compared to the opposite.

And I completely agree with BrightBow's point about the genocide. There should have been more repentance on the humans' part in the game.

[bottlegnomes]

This is still alive?

[Dwalin2010]

This is still alive?

Hey, a month hasn't yet passed, so it's not necroposting I think

[Paper Jam]

And I completely agree with BrightBow's point about the genocide. There should have been more repentance on the humans' part in the game.

I disagree; I think Athos making peace with the dragons of Arcadia was repentance enough.

More to the point, so do the dragons of Arcadia.

Everyone else who was responsible for the Scouring had been dead for centuries, so nobody else would have needed to repent.

And really, there was nothing Eliwood or the others could have done anyway except apologize (and Eliwood DID apologize).

Edited April 11, 2013 by Paper Jam

[Dwalin2010]

Everyone else who was responsible for the Scouring had been dead for centuries, so nobody else would have needed to repent.

Yes, but still they could have said how [censored] those dead guys were and declared them as a shame of humanity. Posthumously, I mean.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Dwalin2010

[Paper Jam]

[/size]

Yes, but still they could have said how [censored] those dead guys were and declared them as a shame of humanity. Posthumously, I mean.

Like Eliwood did?

[BrightBow]

Like Eliwood did?

When he said that the dragons weren't alone responsible? And that humans shared "some" responsibility?

It's not on the game script on this site, so here it is again:

"We humans, we took control of the continent like it was our right.

We never considered who or what we drove away...

...Ninian, Nils, the blame for this was never yours alone.

While we can claim ignorance, we still bear some responsibility

Edited April 11, 2013 by BrightBow

[Paper Jam]

When he said that the dragons weren't alone responsible? And that humans shared "some" responsibility?

It's not on the game script on this site, so here it is again:

"We humans, we took control of the continent like it was our right.

We never considered who or what we drove away...

...Ninian, Nils, the blame for this was never yours alone.

While we can claim ignorance, we still bear some responsibility

My case in point.

[BrightBow]

My case in point.

How in the world were the dragons to blame for a war that humans started? The people who "disrupted a peace forged in wisdom" to start a war share only some responsibility?

There is nothing to suggest that besides the irritating refusal of those games to call the Divine Generals out on it.

Edited April 11, 2013 by BrightBow

[Paper Jam]

How in the world were the dragons to blame for a war that humans started? The people who "disrupted a peace forged in wisdom" to start a war share only some responsibility?

There is nothing to suggest that besides the irritating refusal of those games to call the Divine Generals out on it.

Who said the dragons were to blame?

In any case, nobody can claim 100% responsibility for anything. Clearly there was violence on both sides; Jahn had blood on his hands too.

And in any case, Eliwood didn't know the gruesome details about what Hartmut and Jahn had done, so he didn't know who was more at fault. Saying that they both had some responsibility, when he didn't know how much each had, was the best apology he could make.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Paper Jam

[BrightBow]

Who said the dragons were to blame?

"...Ninian, Nils, the blame for this was never yours alone.

While we can claim ignorance, we still bear some responsibility."

He said the dragons were not alone at fault. Meaning he says that humans only have partial responsibility for it.

And taking "some" responsibility is very little. So he blames the majority of the mess on the dragons.

Edit:

In any case, nobody can claim 100% responsibility for anything. Clearly there was violence on both sides; Jahn had blood on his hands too.

Yeah. The dragons were fighting back. Those bastards.

Edited April 11, 2013 by BrightBow

[Jotari]

Can I just stress for the third time or so that it was a war and not an actual, intended, genocide?

[Paper Jam]

"...Ninian, Nils, the blame for this was never yours alone.

While we can claim ignorance, we still bear some responsibility."

He said the dragons were not alone at fault. Meaning he says that humans only have partial responsibility for it.

And taking "some" responsibility is very little. So he blames the majority of the mess on the dragons.

"Some" responsibility could be anywhere from 1% to 99%. It's not necessarily very little.

And Eliwood didn't know how much of the war was the humans' fault and how much was the dragons' fault anyway. The best he could do was accept some of the blame.

[BrightBow]

And Eliwood didn't know how much of the war was the humans' fault and how much was the dragons' fault anyway. The best he could do was accept some of the blame.

That got a bit messy with the edits now.

That's pretty much the same like the text in your last post that you added later and which I responded in my edited post.

So could you please refer to the part that I added above as a response to that new part.

Edit: Ah, whatever. I just transfer it down here.

True, it makes sense from an in-universe perspective.

Which means that we have two games who continuously worship a group of people who are known for driving a sentient and intelligent species from the known world.

Whose heroes of both games are treated as their successor in spirit.

And one of them was still alive during the second game. And he is never asked any unpleasant question.

Not from the two kids whose mother got killed during the war and which separated them forever from their parents.

And not from the guy who lost his wife in the war. And who was forever separated from his children as the result of an desperate attempt to save her.

And who spent centuries desperately futile trying to revive her and lost his mind, memories and his whole being in the process.

Which also turns him conveniently into a cartoonish bond villain, who antagonizes Athos for entirely unrelated reasons.

Instead that surviving "hero" gets a touching ending, in which he declares: "I have no regrets".

That's either some really shitty writing or morally abhorrent.

Edited April 11, 2013 by BrightBow

[Paper Jam]

Why should Athos have any regrets? He made his peace with the dragons and got forgiveness. And if the people he had once wronged forgave him, what would he regret?

[BrightBow]

Why should Athos have any regrets? He made his peace with the dragons and got forgiveness. And if the people he had once wronged forgave him, what would he regret?

That part is hardly satisfying, considering that the script takes it for granted that the Arcadians accepted them with open arms. It's just another case of the game refusing to address Athos role during the Scouring.

Also, the Arcadians are not Ninian and Nils. Two major characters who we know suffered a heavy loose through the war.

Edited April 11, 2013 by BrightBow

[Baldrick]

The Elder of the Arcadians, at least, was present during the Scouring, by the way he talks about Idoun's capture in the FE6 Epilogue. He's heavily implied to be a Divine Dragon. I'm sure Athos would have talked to him about the Scouring at some point.

The two simplest explanations for why Athos felt no regret despite his action during the Scouring is;

a) The Scouring was a one-sided genocide, and so he's a sociopath/enjoyed killing dragons

b) The Scouring was a fight for survival, and so although he does have guilt about his actions, there was no path he could have taken that wouldn't have led to the extinction of either dragons or humans, therefore he doesn't regret it.

A clue to the right answer is how he reacted when he met the ancestors of the Arcadians. He led them to an oasis and protected them from being discovered by humanity. Which explanation meshes better with this event?

[Jotari]

The Elder of the Arcadians, at least, was present during the Scouring, by the way he talks about Idoun's capture in the FE6 Epilogue. He's heavily implied to be a Divine Dragon. I'm sure Athos would have talked to him about the Scouring at some point.

The two simplest explanations for why Athos felt no regret despite his action during the Scouring is;

a) The Scouring was a one-sided genocide, and so he's a sociopath/enjoyed killing dragons

b) The Scouring was a fight for survival, and so although he does have guilt about his actions, there was no path he could have taken that wouldn't have led to the extinction of either dragons or humans, therefore he doesn't regret it.

A clue to the right answer is how he reacted when he met the ancestors of the Arcadians. He led them to an oasis and protected them from being discovered by humanity. Which explanation meshes better with this event?

Indeed nothing in universe suggests it was a genocide. Everything points towards a fight for survival.The battle went on so long that birthrates gave humans an edge. That means generations of soldiers fought. No humans by the end of that war was involved with it's out break. The Divine Generals weren't maniacs wanted to see all dragons dead. They were heroes who put an end to a long and agonizing war. We know the Divine Generals weren't genocidal maniacs because we see Athos first hand and Idoun's entire story is based on the fact that Hartmut was too merciful to kill her. Nothing suggests that any human wanted to see every last dragon dead.

[BrightBow]

Indeed nothing in universe suggests it was a genocide. Everything points towards a fight for survival.The battle went on so long that birthrates gave humans an edge. That means generations of soldiers fought. No humans by the end of that war was involved with it's out break. The Divine Generals weren't maniacs wanted to see all dragons dead. They were heroes who put an end to a long and agonizing war. We know the Divine Generals weren't genocidal maniacs because we see Athos first hand and Idoun's entire story is based on the fact that Hartmut was too merciful to kill her. Nothing suggests that any human wanted to see every last dragon dead.

Just to clarify a few things:

The opening of FE6 says that the humans started the war. The opening of FE7 started that the humans started the war. That's hardly nothing.

And after the war, there were no longer dragons in the known world. What else is needed to call it a genocide?

And Generations of humans did fight, yes. But we have no idea what they thought about the war because it's never addressed in either game.

We also don't know what the Divine Generals thought about the whole thing. What we do know, is that they lead a war that was ended by killing the entire opposition. And yes, that's including non-combatants.

And there are actually a lot of things suggest that humans wanted to see every last human dead.

The biggest point is this on: There are no dragons in the known world anymore.

No dragon managed to survive outside of Arcadia. Except for Jahn and Idoun, who were lying under the rubble of the temple.

If they didn't want them all death, then why didn't any dragons manage to live open among humans? Why was there no one left to live in their own nation?

And remember Nergal's wife? Aenir? The dragon?

She was killed even though she was merely going with her family through the Dragon Gate. She was a non-combatant. But that didn't save her.

Look, it is possible that she was an exception. A tragic victim of a war that lost it's meaning long ago. It's possible that the Divine Generals were kind people that were forced to take sides into a war whose stakes grew to high to end with both sides surviving.

But when you are saying that they definitely were Heroes, then you aren't doing anything different then I do when I say that they are all genocidal bastards: You are simply filling the blanks.

I can't prove that the Divine Generals were evil bastards and stuff. Because I don't know what's in those blanks. But neither can you.

The answer is not the point. The point is that the answer does not exist.

Because it's a question that needs an answer. Because of the things that we do know.

Both games open by telling us that humans started a war that drove dragons from the known world. Starting a war is a very bad thing. Wiping an entire race from the map is so as well.

Sure, there can be reasons for why those things happened. Good reasons.

But if reasons exist, they need to be brought up.

How can we look up to these people like the story excepts us to, when all we know is that they contributed to Genocide?

But we aren't told any reasons.

It's just repeated over and over that they were good, brave, noble and stuff. But these are just adjectives.

Adjectives applied from a generation that knows them for only one thing: Defeating the dragons. Adjectives applied from a generation that is a millennium away from the truth.

We are forced to judge the Generals with no information whatsoever because the game never talks about it.

-Even when the villain is a man who lost his wife through that war.

-Even when two main characters are two dragon kids who lost their parents.

-Even when we are supposed to shed tears for one of them.

So in the end we have two stories, that idealizes people either despite their contribution to the extermination of an intelligent humanoid species...

...or specifically because they exterminated an intelligent humanoid species.

And the only reason we have to assume the latter, is blind faith that the writers couldn't have possibly meant it the other way.

Edited April 12, 2013 by BrightBow