Grinding is grinding

[Narga_Rocks]

it depends on if your metric of time is real-time or number of turns

And if you don't use real-time in FF but use, say, steps, then there is no "run or you are grinding", but if you consider any battle you fight that you don't strictly have to as "grinding" then I see a similarity with FE. It's not necessary for Saleh to use physic to get 1 hp for Gerik or for him to barrier or torch or whatever. You can complete the game without him doing that. It is then grinding for him to barrier-spam even if it doesn't cost you turns. Or, it's not grinding, depending on your metric.

[Snowy_One]

I think that, first off, there are multiple 'levels' of grinding as well as at least two distinct types that need to be accounted for as well as variable outcomes.

First off, the types.

1) Repetitive: The most common 'kind' of grinding to be identified. In this kind a player will repeatedly challenge foes or complete a single or small chain of tasks multiple times, usually while seeking a specific item or to improve their characters (usually through experience or skills).

2) Progressive: When a character willingly ignores the 'main' story in order to focus on a side quest with the intent of completing it. This sort of grinding usually results in characters being stronger than 'normal' for the main mission while at the same time keeping the player from repeating the same task multiple times.

Using FFXII (Really, it's just a great example due to it's open-world), 'repetative' grinding would be akin to grinding Malaboro's in the sewer to level up while 'progressive' would be completing the various marks, some of which may require repetitive grinding to complete. Since completing the marks will result in the player being overleveled/geared for the main story (even if no repetitive grinding is done and you flee from every non-essential fight in the hunts themselves) it will result in a power increase akin to grinding without actually grinding.

Now, as for the levels.

Level 1) 'Normal': At this level the player simply doesn't flee from any fights along the main route of a dungeon. This is not 'true' grinding in any sense and just completing the game.

Level 2) The player will collect all items/complete all notable things in a dungeon: Pretty straight forwards as well. Using Pokemon as an example, the player will collect all items and challenge all trainers, possibly ensure he captures at least one of every mon in a dungeon, but does not do anything truly excessive.

Level 3) 'Light' grinding: In this level a player is usually faced with an obstacle that they cannot overcome 'normally' and will level-up in order to defeat it, but will usually do little more. This can also apply to acquiring/mastering a certain skill or obtaining a certain item/amount of an item. The player only does the grinding that is needed to progress/accomplish their task, no more.

Level 4) 'Heavy' grinding: The player is either faced with an obstacle the game does not expect them to overcome/overcome until later (like the first Lavos fight in Chrono Trigger). The player will refuse to accept this and will grind up to defeat the challenge, usually resulting in the player obtaining endgame levels long before the actual endgame.

Level 5) 'Obsessive' grinding: Disgaea.

Outcomes.

Outcome one: Player obtains something stronger than normal, but accounted for in the game: A early-game player grinding up to obtain a mid-level weapon while still in the early game would fall into this. The player is now stronger than they normally would be, but at the same time, balance will be 'mostly' restored by the endgame. Capturing and training a Mankey/Caterpie to fight Brock in Pokemon R/B would fall into this.

Outcome two: The player has nothing that couldn't be obtained normally, but more of it: Assume an item in a game that allows the player to forge a top-tier item. Normally the game gives the player only one of these items in a chest, but enemy X which drops little to no EXP has a small chance of dropping this item. Normally the player could only have one of the created items, but if they grind enemy X then can obtain 4-5 of the items. The player isn't actually 'stronger' as their levels are still similar to the expected and they don't have anything that couldn't 'actually' be obtained normally, but they now have a distinct advantage over the remainder of the game. Buying the Holy Sword in Airyglyph in Star Ocean 3 by selling your map bunnies is an example of this.

Outcome three: Massive overleveling: The player's level is simply too high now for enemies to be a threat. At best they might have to be wary of a few specific skills, but on average they are not in any danger and can easily pillage their way through the game.

Terms sound agreeable?

Edited July 8, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Rehab]

I'd ask if anybody actually has a problem with the player being given the option to grind in fire emblem, but I have indeed seen people say so. Specifically, that having the opportunity to grind, as in fe13, even when not mandatory, is bad for fire emblem.

I don't remember anybody responding to the paragraphs I wrote on why I don't think that to be the case, but do remember seeing the assertion made again.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Vashiane]

If the game gives me the ability to grind, I'm going to use and abuse it. I can't... NOT grind, I don't understand it. If I use Snowy's terms as in the post above, depending on the game I swing between "Light" and "Heavy" grinding, and I'm both a Progressive and Normal grinder. Do ALL the sidequests.

[Snowy_One]

I don't think 'grinding' in FE is wrong so long as it doesn't enter 'heavy' or 'Disgaea' levels, especially since it's impossible to account for it without assuming the player does SOME grinding. For example, not everyone will curbstomp with Seth and many people will, instead, clear maps of enemies (to the best of their ability) or at least try to obtain all items. In fact, I'd wager the majority of Fire Emblem players fall into the latter category. It should be that way anyways. Casual/leisurely players get a game balanced for them while LTC players get a game that's challenging. As opposed to a game that punishes people for not bums-rushing the end or meticulous planning beforehand.

[Scarlet]

Disgaea games...

I've only played the DS port of the first game, but no, it's not necessary to grind to beat the main storyline in that one (not even in Etna's Story).

Granted, the game is tough if you don't grind, but it's winnable if you know how the game works - abuse the heck outta throwing, get a thief as soon as possible and rob your enemies blind. Good equipment is much more important than levels are, and the storyline enemies for the most part have very good gear. Apart from an overleveled thief (around Lv100) to improve my stealing chances, most of my party was in the low 50s last time I beat the game. Granted, I visited the Item World a few times to ensure my thief was up to par, but if you take care to give kills to your thief normally, it's not necessary.

That went as far as me beating Lv200+ enemies in Etna's Story with a Lv70 party. Granted, enemies in Etna's Story have really shitty equipment, but there you go.

Games like FF3 or FF4 on the other hand?

FF3? I essentially do most dungeons twice (once to get the treasure and save, then the actual run to the boss) and still keep finding myself unable to stand up to the ridiculously overpowered bosses beyond the Crystal Tower. The reason for why low levels don't cut it here is the low HP growth during low levels, really - I could probably brute-force my way through the CoD if she didn't one-shot my entire party every turn with no chance of failure. Hard to survive a 2000 damage attack with just barely over 1000 HP.

So yeah, while I reach the Crystal Tower around Lv32 on average, I usually end up grinding to Lv57.

And let's just not talk about FF4. You can reach the moon at like Lv28 and end up having to more than double your level to have even a snowball's chance in hell to survive Zeromus' Big Bang spam. Heck, even most random encounters one-shot you until the low 50s.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Scarlet

[AlliedG]

FF8: where level grinding makes the game harder

Well although enemies auto-level with you it makes junctioning easier or less tedious as you gain access to higher level magic. That game is more about what magic you have access to (kind of refreshing as magic in later games became pointless)

FF8 is broken though as you can easily grind 100 holy wars ....

On the other hand grinding for +1 luck item in FF8 is ridiculous compared to FF7 sources.

Edited August 7, 2013 by AlliedG

[Magical CC]

Persona 3 doesnt need much grinding. If you are decent, you can get pretty much everything you need without replaying the floors again and again. You only have to return to the previous floors to rescue the missing ones or to do Elizabeth's quest.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Char

[Original Alear]

i thought this topic would be about when i rub my loins against a woman's butt

It's always about you with you, isn't it dondon?

(sooo late)

[shadykid]

if a game has a speedrun that doesn't require grinding, you don't need to grind /hardmode