The Class-Tiering Thread: Postgame

[BANRYU]

Oh wow. And here I was thinking the magic thing was a significant advantage given that most things are weaker to it. Allright, sounds fine to me.

Also, I'm bumping Snipers back up to B, since I generally see more people defending it than arguing against it.

- Hero: B-rank -> A-rank

- Sniper: Limbo -> B-rank

- Paladin: (untiered) -> C-rank

- Wyvern Lord: (untiered) -> C-rank

- Swordmaster: (untiered) -> C/D Limbo

- General: (untiered) -> D-rank

- Griffon Rider: (untiered) -> D-rank

What are y'all's thoughts on Warrior and Bow Knight in C/D Limbo?

EDIT: With Great Lord and Great Knight remaining untiered, I'll go ahead and tier the GL with Paladin since they're functionally quite similar, and Great Knight in D-tier for low movement and multiple weaknesses.

- Great Lord: (untiered) -> C-rank

- Great Knight: (untiered) -> D-rank

Edited March 15, 2014 by BANRYU

[CoolCoolCool]

DF is too much of a generalist class, better off specialising. Sucks compared to sage magically and hero is definitely better physically. I'd still take sniper though. Numbers are about the same as hero, but I'd take the benefits of 2-3 range over the weak enemy phase which is barely relevant.

I like Bow Knight for Chrom but that is only because he has such poor class/skill selection. Movement pairup boost is always nice though. I'd bump warrior up to C for sure just based on numbers, it is distinctly better from the front and back than say paladin or great lord (which are C) unless you really want the extra speed from GL pairup or paladin movement.

Manakete shouldn't be higher than the second lowest tier at best due to tankiness being fairly redundant and the lack of braves.

[Czar_Yoshi]

The thing about all-round classes in Postgame is that Faires are a really good way to boost your attack that practically anyone can use, but they effectively weaponlock you because using a non-faire weapon when you have a Faire equipped is sacrificing 10-20 damage for no good reason and equipping two Faires is a waste of skillslot because you can only use one at a time. Thus, since Sages are better than DF Magically, Berserkers are better Axe users and Heroes are better Sword users (or frontliner axe users), the DF is outclassed.

Warrior finds itself in a similar predicament: they're very strong and give a lot of +Str, but they're completely outclassed by Berserkers and thus have no niche.

Bow Knight is good for early Lunatic+, but in Postgame their stats are so low that it's just not worth it. Yes, 8 range Bows and all that, but enemies in Apo are generally nice about aggroing only after you set foot in their range, so super high Mov isn't that important. Any other map, and there's no PavGis+ so having an Aegis weapon that hits Def doesn't matter and you can use Valkyries/Dark Knights for better results.

Paladin and GK are two completely different animals: Paladin has much better support boosts, higher mov, and can frontline due to having actual Spd/Skl stats (and have fewer weaknesses and more Res to boot). GKs... Have stronger DSes, can use Axes, and give +Mov. That's it. I'd rate Palading B/C for being a good Gale support (it would be higher, But Assassin has more Skl and gives better pairup boosts), while GK gets a solid D for having rubbish offenses including the lowest Skl of any promoted class.

I've never been in a situation where I've found a Manakete to be a liability to me outside of certain Lunatic+ chapters, (and I've used plenty of Manaketes before), so I at least wouldn't say they're bad. It's also important to remember whether you're rating Manaketes or Nowi/Nah, it's not the class's fault that those two units have nonexistent skillpools. ...That makes me wonder if the best standpoint for rating classes is how viable that class would be on a Morgan that's been optimized for it. Of note, Avatar!Manaketes get Ingis which they can use fairly well thanks to high Mag.

[Shadow Mir]

The thing about all-round classes in Postgame is that Faires are a really good way to boost your attack that practically anyone can use, but they effectively weaponlock you because using a non-faire weapon when you have a Faire equipped is sacrificing 10-20 damage for no good reason and equipping two Faires is a waste of skillslot because you can only use one at a time. Thus, since Sages are better than DF Magically, Berserkers are better Axe users and Heroes are better Sword users (or frontliner axe users), the DF is outclassed.

Warrior finds itself in a similar predicament: they're very strong and give a lot of +Str, but they're completely outclassed by Berserkers and thus have no niche.

Bow Knight is good for early Lunatic+, but in Postgame their stats are so low that it's just not worth it. Yes, 8 range Bows and all that, but enemies in Apo are generally nice about aggroing only after you set foot in their range, so super high Mov isn't that important. Any other map, and there's no PavGis+ so having an Aegis weapon that hits Def doesn't matter and you can use Valkyries/Dark Knights for better results.

Paladin and GK are two completely different animals: Paladin has much better support boosts, higher mov, and can frontline due to having actual Spd/Skl stats (and have fewer weaknesses and more Res to boot). GKs... Have stronger DSes, can use Axes, and give +Mov. That's it. I'd rate Palading B/C for being a good Gale support (it would be higher, But Assassin has more Skl and gives better pairup boosts), while GK gets a solid D for having rubbish offenses including the lowest Skl of any promoted class.

I've never been in a situation where I've found a Manakete to be a liability to me outside of certain Lunatic+ chapters, (and I've used plenty of Manaketes before), so I at least wouldn't say they're bad. It's also important to remember whether you're rating Manaketes or Nowi/Nah, it's not the class's fault that those two units have nonexistent skillpools. ...That makes me wonder if the best standpoint for rating classes is how viable that class would be on a Morgan that's been optimized for it. Of note, Avatar!Manaketes get Ingis which they can use fairly well thanks to high Mag.

On that note, going back to Apo, isn't it a zerg rush after you wind up in range of an enemy in Apo?

Also, on the point about Ignis Manaketes: Guess that's the only way the magic boost from dragonstones even becomes relevant...

[Czar_Yoshi]

It's true that Apo enemies all rush you after they're aggroed, but the only ones with more than 8 Mov are the (very weak) Griffons on wave 1. The most dangerous ones (Nightmare Sniper, Invincisorc, Thronie) only have six, and Anna is stuck with five.

Technically the Mag boost is also useful if you're trying to get the max unit rating, but that's purely aesthetic...

[BANRYU]

It's sounding to me like Manaketes are okay in C.

I suppose that 'units that aren't as good as the others but still have a unique niche' is a pretty appropriate description for anyone in the C-rank tier, where D-rank is just units that are usable, but still 100% hard outclassed by other things. Sometimes it's harder to define what fits in the middling tiers, so it's good to get that ironed out, I suppose.

Would it help if I added tier qualifications/descriptions to the OP?

Edited March 15, 2014 by BANRYU

[Gaia]

Would it help if I added tier qualifications/descriptions to the OP?

Sounds good. It's a lot easier to rank things when you know what you're ranking them according to.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah, descriptions are cool. I'd say the difference between C and D is that C has classes with niches that are eclipsed by other niches, and D has classes that are eclipsed within their niche by other classes.

[BANRYU]

Right. I don't know how good the descriptions actually are, but I've gone ahead and done the tier descriptions.

Incidentally, all the units have been currently tiered except the Swordmaster, who's still in Limbo between C and D.

I can't help but wonder if maybe the Swordmaster deserves C for access to the niche Myrmidon-class weapons like Amatsu for ranged attacks that don't rely on the Magic stat. (EDIT: Just remembered Ragnell exists too making this point kind of moot) If the SM in question can get access to Lancebreaker, then maybe the Sword-lock isn't COMPLETELY terrible either…?

EDIT @ below: yep I see that. I realized after the Ragnell thing that there wasn't much they can actually lay claim to, so I'll add them to D.

Edited March 15, 2014 by BANRYU

[Gaia]

imo Swordmaster should drop to D. They make terrible support units (low Str), and their potential to lead is shot because of their low Skl/Str too. They're easily outclassed by Assassins who have higher Skl (+4), higher Strength, and aren't locked to Swords (Which is worse than being locked to bows...). Not to mention that any unit that can access SM can also access Assassin.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Gaius217

[BANRYU]

Done-- that just about finishes it up, then. I don't know that there's much else to discuss, but I suppose I'll leave it open for debate, since these are hardly what I'd call set in stone.

Incidentally, is the Dancer / Olivia perhaps worth bumping to S-rank for her unique niche? …the lack of offensive capability probably not worth it, huh

[Gaia]

Done-- that just about finishes it up, then. I don't know that there's much else to discuss, but I suppose I'll leave it open for debate, since these are hardly what I'd call set in stone.

Incidentally, is the Dancer / Olivia perhaps worth bumping to S-rank for her unique niche? …the lack of offensive capability probably not worth it, huh

She should remain in A-rank, in my opinion. Bold: There are some hilarious situations where it's actually helpful. Like taking down the Helswath 'Zerker with Olivia doing ~5 damage, and then doing 20 damage on Dual attacks to sustain minimal counter damage. But that's very situational.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Olivia does have Galeforce and thus can be used for such purposes (as can staffbots, if you feel like breaking your Valflames/wasting a skillslot or two). SoC even has a few videos of her taking down Anna. However, I don't think it's that great of a point for Dancer because there's nothing the class has that makes doing that easier (remember, there's a greater difference between having 1HP left and being dead than there is between having 1HP left and 85HP left). Most units can eat a hefty Counter, it's when you take multiples on EP that they become a problem and Helswath Berserkers won't attack you at 1-range on EP.

Amatsu: It's a not-as-well-known-as-it-should-be fact that Amatsu has the worst Hit of any sword in the game. Additionally, it can't be forged and has 12 mt. A forged Levin Sword has 15 mt... And SM only has 4 more Str than Mag...

[BANRYU]

Good to know, but regardless I realized that bringing up Amatsu was a terrible point anyway.... haha....

Guess the tiers are finished for now, then. This is now a semi-worthy resource, I hope.

Maybe I'll go back in and add spoiler tags explaining why each class is tiered as such.

Edited March 15, 2014 by BANRYU

[CoolCoolCool]

The A-tier description should be changed for two reasons. Firstly, skills are fairly irrelevant to what is being evaluated here (finishing class). Secondly, no class justifies the description of "practically required for success".

Other than that, looks good. Dread fighter is still definitely too high. The D-tier description actually fits it perfectly, a couple of the c-tier units should drop as well under the current criteria. For example, what is the niche of great lord? It is strictly outclassed by say Hero as a lead unit and +4 speed/luck is a pretty bad pairup bonus. I still maintain manakete is too high as well due to the fact it has the lowest dps (alongside taguel) due to no braves. At least it actually has a niche though, I guess.

[Gaia]

For example, what is the niche of great lord? It is strictly outclassed by say Hero as a lead unit and +4 speed/luck is a pretty bad pairup bonus.

Hmm, let me see. How many potential units can access Great Lord and Hero? Oh right, one. FeMU!Lucina. That's it. We may be rating the classes themselves, but don't forget the context of the game.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Gaius217

[CoolCoolCool]

Physical Lucina (aka Olivia!Lucina) still gets Sniper, Assassin and Paladin which are all better classes, especially if she is married to a galeforcer. Likewise, Chrom also has better classes at his disposal. Outside novelty I really can't see any purpose to running great lord.

[BANRYU]

I gather you'd argue the same thing for Grandmaster VS Dark Knight?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Other than that, looks good. Dread fighter is still definitely too high. The D-tier description actually fits it perfectly, a couple of the c-tier units should drop as well under the current criteria. For example, what is the niche of great lord? It is strictly outclassed by say Hero as a lead unit and +4 speed/luck is a pretty bad pairup bonus. I still maintain manakete is too high as well due to the fact it has the lowest dps (alongside taguel) due to no braves. At least it actually has a niche though, I guess.

The niche of Great Lord is that Chrom is force-deployed on most DLC maps and you're thus forced to either make the best of him or suffer the loss of a deployment slot.

Also, I nominate Great Lord M and F to be considered as separate classes due to separate caps.

As for the benefits of GL-M, they're the strongest Sword using class that's viable as a lead unit (GKs have too little Spd/Skl) and have good all-round defensive caps (42/40).

[CoolCoolCool]

Bow Knight does more damage (due to bowfaire) and has a much better pairup bonus (5 skill 5 speed 1 move >> 6 speed 6 luck) than great lord.

[Gaia]

Bow Knight does more damage (due to bowfaire) and has a much better pairup bonus (5 skill 5 speed 1 move >> 6 speed 6 luck) than great lord.

Firstly, skills are fairly irrelevant to what is being evaluated here (finishing class).

It's a good idea to not completely contradict yourself in an argument.

[BANRYU]

Gaius, I don't think it's necessarily contradictory for Cool^3 to point those things out in the contexts that he did. When he was talking about the skills, he was referring to my A-rank description (in which the mention was admittedly unnecessary and redundant). In the case of Bow Knights, I think it's fair to say that it's relevant to bring up Bowfaire.

Incidentally the aforementioned A-tier description has been reworded slightly. Sorry about that.

Any other reasons why GL shouldn't be dropped to D?

Also, can a similar case be made for Grandmaster VS Dark Knight? If the Paladin outclasses the GL presumably due to movement, doesn't the Grandmaster suffer a similar problem?

[Czar_Yoshi]

GM gives better offensive pairup boosts, so it has that going for it. The only other class to boost Mag/Skl/Spd is Trickster, and their DSes aren't very impressive. If anything, I'd say it's better than DK- DK is completely eclipsed (outside of Ignis) as an 8-Mov Sword user by Paladin and Dark Flier functions far better as a ranged magic class due to flight, more Mag/Skl/Spd and better pairup boosts for when in the back.

Bow Knight does more damage (due to bowfaire) and has a much better pairup bonus (5 skill 5 speed 1 move >> 6 speed 6 luck) than great lord.

GL Lucina with Swordfaire does just as much damage as BK Lucina with Bowfaire. In Chrom's case, GL-M has 43 Str so there's only a two point difference without needing to hog a skillslot.

[BANRYU]

In that case, I almost wonder if maybe Dark Knight shouldn't be dropped to D by grounds of being outclassed in all its roles. Heck Darkfliers can get Bowbreaker/Aegis/Iote's Shield to deal with arrows and sort of negate that downside of using them, too.

[Czar_Yoshi]

For Apo? Maybe they should. However, this is one of those times when context is everything, because the moment it becomes important to have a tanky 8-mov class that hits Aegis or has a ranged Brave, they're the only option... They're also very good at fighting Lunatic Risen.