Suicide and it's implications

[Life]

Wow. How about putting a bag around their head and tightening a belt around their neck until they suffocate. Or drinking some kind of poisonous household cleaning substance? Or jumping off a bridge? Or hanging themselves?. Or overdosing on pills? Or many of the other plethora of ways people have attempted suicide?

It's far more complicated than that to make it so black and white like that. Treating someone like they just want attention is like taunting them, if you sit back and think about it. The amount of effort you want to put into trying to be there for someone who is suffering severe depression like that is up to you, but don't assume you know if they're just doing it for attention or not. Err on the side of caution, always take it seriously, and if you can't deal with it then remove yourself.

Reread my comment and then ask yourself if this is truly a response that should properly thought about. Because you missed the entire point.

[jiodi]

Three sentences, one didn't mean anything. I think it's fairly clear:

Horizontal for attention, vertical for effect.

Translation: "Those who cut their wrists horizontally just do it for the attention while those who cut their wrists vertically do it because they truly wish to kill themselves".

This is baseless. Who are you to proclaim why someone brings harm to his or herself? I was discussing this before, it's like a taunt. Someone who hurts themselves (who cares why) being told they're just an attention whore is basically like saying "well if you were actually depressed you'd have gone and done it already, coward". Attitudes like that are what's sickening. If those people are quite clearly and obviously giving themselves scars cause they think it's cool or something then fine, who cares, ignore them. You don't have to associate with them. But don't let their actions speak for the tons and tons of suffering kids (and adults, for that matter) out there. Compassion should be first on the list, not judgment.

Forget people who actually go through with the act, those that talk about it in order to get attention sicken me.

"Removing those who have actually gone through with suicide the people that are really bad are the ones that just talk about it for attention."

First off, removing the targeted group of people that this thread is about creates tangential constraints to try and make some point. That doesn't win an argument, it derails it. Pointing out a very small portion of people (who are probably still sick in some way if they find hurting themselves will make them friends) and saying that THAT'S the thing that sickens you doesn't counter any sort of point, nor does it add to the conversation.

Secondly, pain is relative. We don't have the right to tell someone their pain is not real or they're just being an attention whore. That is absolutely unacceptable and unbecoming of a civilized, empathetic, compassionate human being.

[eclipse]

Does it matter what they're doing or why they're doing it?

Yes.

Using suicide to guilt-trip someone is sickening. One example is "if you break up with me, I'll kill myself". I have very little pity for those who use guilt to manipulate others, especially threats of self-harm.

[jiodi]

Yes.

Using suicide to guilt-trip someone is sickening. One example is "if you break up with me, I'll kill myself". I have very little pity for those who use guilt to manipulate others, especially threats of self-harm.

Alright, fine. Point taken there. But can we all stop making buckets to put people in so we feel justified with calling people cowards or sickening? We're talking about suicide. We can go down the line forever until we feel comfortable with some example of someone that is a terrible asshole, but it doesn't help those who are actually feeling shitty.

[eclipse]

Alright, fine. Point taken there. But can we all stop making buckets to put people in so we feel justified with calling people cowards or sickening? We're talking about suicide. We can go down the line forever until we feel comfortable with some example of someone that is a terrible asshole, but it doesn't help those who are actually feeling shitty.

I think people who use suicide as a manipulation tactic hurt those who contemplate suicide for other reasons. I think suicide threats should be taken seriously, but it's harder to do so if someone's lied to you in the past about it. Think of it as crying wolf.

[jiodi]

I think people who use suicide as a manipulation tactic hurt those who contemplate suicide for other reasons. I think suicide threats should be taken seriously, but it's harder to do so if someone's lied to you in the past about it. Think of it as crying wolf.

Sure, I mentioned something along those lines above. But broadly stroking people who don't actually commit suicide as "attention whores" isn't exactly helpful, which is what I was railing against.

[eclipse]

Sure, I mentioned something along those lines above. But broadly stroking people who don't actually commit suicide as "attention whores" isn't exactly helpful, which is what I was railing against.

This, I can agree with, to an extent. Some people will talk about it, but they never intended on following through - these are the types of people that can fuck right off (pathological liars, narcissists, manipulative shitheads, etc.). Others may have a change of heart/be talked down/are stopped - these are the type of people who need help. Ideally, we wouldn't have to question whether or not this is a serious matter. Practically. . .shitty people exist, which is why some discernment is necessary.

[Phoenix Wright]

isn't the point of self-harm, and to an extent suicide, to seek attention? not in a bad way, like a few posters here think, but in a "i'm not happy at all because i want someone to be there for me but no one is," way? the deep depressions that some people go through means that they are screaming for attention and love and care, right? the problem is, they just don't know how to say it?

these are legitimate questions. because i thought the "why" behind self-harm and suicide were rather obvious, it's just that calling people who do it attention-whores is just fucking dumb and pretty offensive. they're attention-seekers because that's a big thing that they feel is lacking in their lives, whether their feelings are justified or not is irrelevant; it is still the primary motivation. right?

and of course this is a generalization. not all people have the same motivations for self-harm or suicide.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[Rehab]

That is a possible point of self-harm, of many documented. Another, markedly different one, is "I fucking hate myself and am shit. I deserve to be hurt and/or die. Take that, you shit." Indeed, many victims hide evidence and thoughts of both, often because they've heard other people name claim those are the reasons why people do them, which can in turn make the victims both more ashamed and less likely to talk about them. Many such victims have the perceptions, regardless of their accuracy, that they don't deserve help, and/or that others would actually be happier and better off without them.

The "whys" behind self-harm and suicide are actually some of the most widely misunderstood aspects of them. To be fair, that's partially because they can be complex and multifaceted, but it's also because assumptions which fail to account for them (and may substitute them with, frankly, crude simplicity) are fairly widespread.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Rehab

[dondon151]

Using suicide to guilt-trip someone is sickening. One example is "if you break up with me, I'll kill myself". I have very little pity for those who use guilt to manipulate others, especially threats of self-harm.

it could also be a symptom of a psychological problem, much like malingering. regardless, it's important to be cognizant that people don't necessarily act this way because they're jerks.

[eclipse]

it could also be a symptom of a psychological problem, much like malingering. regardless, it's important to be cognizant that people don't necessarily act this way because they're jerks.

Oh gosh. . .this is a can of worms.

Chances are, if someone's stooping to that level to get their way, there's a psychological problem at play. If it's someone who's willing to seek help for it, then that's fine (just don't use it as a crutch). Now. . .if it's someone with a problem, who refuses help for whatever reason/doesn't think they need help, and pulls this shit, then I'm not going to feel very sorry for that person. I see the latter far more often than the former.

There's also that state where there IS a problem, but the person doesn't realize it. . .but that's for another day.

[dondon151]

If it's someone who's willing to seek help for it, then that's fine (just don't use it as a crutch). Now. . .if it's someone with a problem, who refuses help for whatever reason/doesn't think they need help, and pulls this shit, then I'm not going to feel very sorry for that person. I see the latter far more often than the former.

part of the reason why it's a problem in the first place is because the person doesn't recognize the need to see help.

[deleted35362]

@OP, the possessive form of the word "it" doesn't have an apostrophe. just mentioning that because english is a dumb language with a million exceptions in it so it's a really common error

Using suicide to guilt-trip someone is sickening. One example is "if you break up with me, I'll kill myself". I have very little pity for those who use guilt to manipulate others, especially threats of self-harm.

Now. . .if it's someone with a problem, who refuses help for whatever reason/doesn't think they need help, and pulls this shit, then I'm not going to feel very sorry for that person.

so if you tried to confront someone you care about for a problem like this and they told you "i don't need professional help dammit i need my hubby!!", do you really think they actually understand why they might need help?

idk it sounds off for you to say you'll feel more sorry for a person who understands they have a mental problem then someone who is actually too lost and confused to understand even that. it's not as if everyone who makes the threat has the same intentions, and either being manipulative or needy shouldn't be lumped together all the time.

i can understand you not being inclined not to feel sorry for someone as you described but...from the way you worded it, to me it sounds like you won't even consider the variables

Edited July 27, 2014 by xXHoshiiHeartXx

[eclipse]

@OP, the possessive form of the word "it" doesn't have an apostrophe. just mentioning that because english is a dumb language with a million exceptions in it so it's a really common error

so if you tried to confront someone you care about for a problem like this and they told you "i don't need professional help dammit i need my hubby!!", do you really think they actually understand why they might need help?

idk it sounds off for you to say you'll feel more sorry for a person who understands they have a mental problem then someone who is actually too lost and confused to understand even that. it's not as if everyone who makes the threat has the same intentions, and either being manipulative or needy shouldn't be lumped together all the time.

i can understand you not being inclined not to feel sorry for someone as you described but...from the way you worded it, to me it sounds like you won't even consider the variables

I could probably explain myself better.

There's the subset of people who can't get help (financial issues, no doctors nearby, etc.) That's. . .unfortunate, and it's hard to tell whether or not that person can improve without outside assistance. Sometimes, medication is necessary.

There's the subset of people who don't realize that there's something wrong with them. Ideally, telling someone that they've got those kinds of issues would be taken in the same was as "hey you've got a giant gash on your back, might wanna see a doctor about it" would be taken. How the subject is presented to the person in question is. . .tricky, but I think it must be done.

There's the subset of people who refuse to admit that there's something wrong with them, and won't seek a professional opinion to confirm/deny this. If someone pulls a suicide threat, and is in this group, I'm not going to feel particularly sorry for them, as they're not willing to consider the possibility that they need help.

There's the subset of people who know that they have a problem, have the means to get help, and refuse to do so for some fucking bullshit reason ("I don't trust doctors", etc.) I have no fucking pity for these people - if there's a problem, and it is within reasonable means to fix it, do something to make it NOT a problem.

And then there's that other group who says things they might not mean while under emotional stress - in which case, I'd try to calm them down before referring them to someone they can talk to, in private. Threatening self-harm is NOT a healthy coping strategy.

I probably missed a bunch of other circumstances, but the general gist is that those who refuse to admit that there's a problem, or who don't want to take steps to fix the problem are the ones who I don't like.

[peener weener]

It sounds like you're drawing either from some very specific case from personal experience or are making groups of people up on the go (adding conditions with every successive post) but either way I don't see how it's that relevant that you hold no pity for this hypothetical (?) person. The point isn't your pity or that they're pitiful or whatever, it's that they have a very real problem, whether they admit to it or no/seek help or no and it can't really be easily dismissed. Threatening self-harm isn't a coping mechanic, it's a sign of emotional instability. And the fact that they'd refuse to seek help is another sign of the problem.

It probaby doesn't really help to see it that way. I understand there's some sort of stigma on "seeking help" in some cultures, that doing so means you are somehow broken or wrong as a person. Calling it a "problem" or "psychological issue" with the connotations some of you (and perhaps myself even if I don't do it consciously) seem to imply is definitely not conductive to someone reaching self-acceptance.

Edited July 28, 2014 by fuccboi

[eclipse]

This is all from personal experience - I've seen a lot of crappy people in my lifetime. Yes, it would be nice if everyone could get help, but if someone refuses to try, then what? Learned helplessness is a common tactic in my area (this covers people who willfully refuse to deal with their issues), and it's doubly annoying when there's collateral damage. I think external factors have some play in it, but even if there was no stigma whatsoever, I'm positive there'd be people who'd refuse psychological help anyway.

[Crooks]

Remember that not all psychological help is beneficial, anyways. For example, I saw this one psychologist for two years, and she really messed me up and made me feel guilty for being anxious and depressed instead of helping me get deal with my anxiety and depression. Instead of helping me not want to die, she made me want to die a lot more.

I know a lot of people that have had psychologists a lot worse than her, so I feel pretty lucky.

A lot of people refuse help because, when they had gotten help in the past, they were hurt very severely, or they're scared that they will be. Psychologists being abusive, mainly emotionally but sometimes in other ways, lying to you and manipulating you, hurting you more than you already are, this is all pretty common...

Edited July 29, 2014 by Crooks

[peener weener]

Remember that not all psychological help is beneficial, anyways. For example, I saw this one psychologist for two years, and she really messed me up and made me feel guilty for being anxious and depressed instead of helping me get deal with my anxiety and depression. Instead of helping me not want to die, she made me want to die a lot more.

I know a lot of people that have had psychologists a lot worse than her, so I feel pretty lucky.

A lot of people refuse help because, when they had gotten help in the past, they were hurt very severely, or they're scared that they will be. Psychologists being abusive, mainly emotionally but sometimes in other ways, lying to you and manipulating you, hurting you more than you already are, this is all pretty common...

I've never heard of this happening, but I have heard that in the US mental health care can be really, really bad. I'm sorry that you went through that.

[eclipse]

Remember that not all psychological help is beneficial, anyways. For example, I saw this one psychologist for two years, and she really messed me up and made me feel guilty for being anxious and depressed instead of helping me get deal with my anxiety and depression. Instead of helping me not want to die, she made me want to die a lot more.

I know a lot of people that have had psychologists a lot worse than her, so I feel pretty lucky.

A lot of people refuse help because, when they had gotten help in the past, they were hurt very severely, or they're scared that they will be. Psychologists being abusive, mainly emotionally but sometimes in other ways, lying to you and manipulating you, hurting you more than you already are, this is all pretty common...

Welcome to any other service-based profession (lawyers, doctors, etc.). I still think it's a poor excuse to NOT seek help, unless you're in the middle of nowhere and the only psychologist in town is a crook, or something equally drastic (in which case, that's "can't get help"). Sometimes, you'll need to shop around.

EDIT: Dunno how malpractice fits into this all.

Edited July 29, 2014 by eclipse

[Tryhard]

The one psychologist that I actually gave a chance ended up disappointing me, and that kind of put me off considering that I stuck out my neck just to be disappointed. I won't say that "I don't trust doctors", but I think that peoples experiences can definitely be soured by things like these even if we do know that not all doctors/what-have-you are bad.

There's some sort of ironic comfort in depression, like you acknowledge that you're a fuck-up and nothing is going to change that, that deters people who really should get help from going to get help.

And in some kind of strange way it feels as though I shouldn't get help because I deserve anything that happens to me as some kind of penance. It sounds ridiculous, and it probably is, but my brain is fucking weird man. I'm aware of my issues, yet refuse to act on them. I suppose I would be the type that annoys you, eclipse. I don't know if I can even explain why I do this - sometimes I see clearly, and sometimes I don't. By all accounts, we are not acting logically. I've never been as far as to threaten suicide, but perhaps it is relevant.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Tryhard

[eclipse]

The one psychologist that I actually gave a chance ended up disappointing me, and that kind of put me off considering that I stuck out my neck just to be disappointed. I won't say that "I don't trust doctors", but I think that peoples experiences can definitely be soured by things like these even if we do know that not all doctors/what-have-you are bad.

There's some sort of ironic comfort in depression, like you acknowledge that you're a fuck-up and nothing is going to change that, that deters people who really should get help from going to get help.

And in some kind of strange way it feels as though I shouldn't get help because I deserve anything that happens to me as some kind of penance. It sounds ridiculous, and it probably is, but my brain is fucking weird man. I'm aware of my issues, yet refuse to act on them. I suppose I would be the type that annoys you, eclipse. I don't know if I can even explain why I do this - sometimes I see clearly, and sometimes I don't. By all accounts, we are not acting logically. I've never been as far as to threaten suicide, but perhaps it is relevant.

As long as your issues don't harm others, I'll. . .probably not be too miffed about it. For example, I can't really see you threatening to kill yourself solely to make someone else feel awful.

EDIT: I might be mildly annoyed if you used it as a crutch for everything, but that's about it.

Edited July 29, 2014 by eclipse