Why Doesn't This Game Have a Zelgius?

[Maxkibram]

While replaying Radiant Dawn, I've been reminded that Zelgius might just be the most badass antagonist (at least for a while) in Fire Emblem history. He's calm, he's clever, he's powerful and he's the only character in the game with a good English voice actor. Every time he's shows up it means bad news for Ike and the gang. I never felt that way about any of the enemy generals in Awakening. They were incompetent flunkies who's only jobs were to be cannon fodder mini-bosses. Even the enemies that were important to the plot like Gangrel and Validar were a pair of easily outsmarted idjits in the end.

Why didn't IS give us a antagonist on par with Zelgius? I wanted to see a bad guy who could Robin a run for his/her money show up, but they never did.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Maxkibram

[shadowofchaos]

I see someone is a big fan of Zelgius and the Black Knight.

Unfortunately, even though they tried with the "mystery" of the mirror Rufure/Robin... they failed.

It does feel like you're playing up Zelgius's characterization though.

Gangrel might not have been the best, but he's leagues better than Fauder/Validar.

[Maxkibram]

It does feel like you're playing up Zelgius's characterization though..

Just a bit

[Dragoncat]

Did the GBA games have villains like that though? I mean Nergal was a shallow "the world will burn, who needs a good reason" as far as I know...I might be wrong since I never had my own copy of Blazing Sword. Valter...he was slimey, but I think he lacked his own motive.

I can see how you would see Zelgius and think there would be more like him in the future and be disappointed though.

[Anacybele]

I felt that Zelgius was more of an anti-hero than a villain. He DID do some honorable things like standing down when Elincia disarmed herself. And he helped in the Mad King's War. He really only did what he did for his personal agenda. And he did seem to care for Daein because he came to Micaiah's aid as the Black Knight.

He was also honorable at the end of his final duel against Ike in RD.

[BrightBow]

Did the GBA games have villains like that though? I mean Nergal was a shallow "the world will burn, who needs a good reason" as far as I know...I might be wrong since I never had my own copy of Blazing Sword. Valter...he was slimey, but I think he lacked his own motive.

I can see how you would see Zelgius and think there would be more like him in the future and be disappointed though.

I think you are really not doing enough justice to Valter. He loves to present himself to others as a mere arrogant slimebag but when he is alone.. or when he is about to kill the sole person present, the mask comes off and you can see that he is a highly cunning, manipulative, sadistic and bloodthirsty monster. Seriously, the first thing he does is to almost kill the Seth, leaving a wound so deep that he never stops feeling it. And he let him get away on a mere whim.

He is a wildcard. He might attack you or he might manipulate his own allies against each other, even killing them himself. But while you never know what he is gonna do, you do know that he stalks both of the clueless twins with equal amounts of lust for their blood and lust for their bodies. Eventually he will attack them. And given his cunning, it will be at the worst time possible. Which is exactly what happens in the end.

Also, he does have motives.

Revenge:

Valter: “Heh heh… We were a grand trio–the Imperial Three: You, Duessel, and me. But my place among you was stolen, and I was exiled from Grado.”

Glen: “You slaughtered people who had no intention of fighting. The emperor’s punishment was just and warranted.”

Valter: “Heh heh…heh heh heh… After my fall from glory, only desire kept me alive. Desire for revenge. My hatred burned so fierce that I was only barely able to keep my sanity. That hatred keeps me warm still today. Oh, how it burns…”

Serving his bloodlust:

Valter: "If Grado wins too easily, there’ll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun… I believe it’s time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn’t do for Glen to arrive before me, would it?

..

Valter: “Hear me, Glen, wyvern general of the Imperial Three. I live for battle. I crave it. I have no need for peace. That is why you must die.”

...

Valter: “I’ve no use for these bloodless minnows… Give me prey that will sate my bloodlust… I hunger!”

And of course his creepy obsession with the twins.

Valter: “Ha ha… Eirika, eh? She’s a ripe little peach. And her brother, Ephraim… He’s better prey than I’d imagined. I can feel my blood rushing at the thought. This might be fun after all.”

...

Valter: "I’ve sent a gift your way, Eirika, but I trust you can handle it. You’re my girl after all. I need you to be strong for me…"

I think Rief summed him up pretty well:

Riev: “Heh heh heh… Your fangs are still sharp, eh? Good. Very good. Ah, Valter… You’re a beast. You’re bound to no country. You care nothing for friend or foe. Kill a man, claim a woman… You live for nothing more, you wretched beast. That’s your strength. That’s what makes you stronger than any many alive. A beast acts without remorse. Man’s morality cannot win. It’s nature’s way…

I know Awakening tries to play what this guy represents for humor and fetish appeal with Henry and Tharja respectively but when played straight like in this game it's terrifying. Plus, Valter is a lot more manipulative then either of those... but then again, it's not like they ever had to hide their nature.

I would say the problem with Valter is that the scenario were he is encountered is stronger then the actual map design, aka he doesn't feel very threatening when he doesn't move and you can safely kill him at your leisure. The best script in the world couldn't fix that problem.

Edited September 26, 2014 by BrightBow

[Anacybele]

I remember Valter being a nasty bastard, but not THAT nasty, good gods. I see similarity in him to a villain I created for a fic too, though this was unintentional.

Zelgius/Black Knight was the best non-protagonist in the series, imo. I based an antagonist-turned-anti-hero off of him because he was so such a good character. I think we do need to see more characters like him.

[Etria]

I dunno, I found Zelgius as bland as most of the rest of 9/10. Nor did I find him threatening. He was very easy to identify as a character that you would not be able to beat anyway (and that you weren't really expected to attack) but was just there to make the enemy seem overwhelmingly strong.

But then I don't most of the FE enemies threatening. Lyon was the only one who was really interesting, mostly because there was the emotional tie to Eirika&Ephraim. There was much more at stake for them because they had to fight a friend.

[Alastor15243]

Did the GBA games have villains like that though? I mean Nergal was a shallow "the world will burn, who needs a good reason" as far as I know...I might be wrong since I never had my own copy of Blazing Sword. Valter...he was slimey, but I think he lacked his own motive.

I can see how you would see Zelgius and think there would be more like him in the future and be disappointed though.

Nergal is actually one of the most depressingly tragic villains in fire emblem history, but you only figure that out if you play hector mode and get a lot of side chapters completed.

[BrightBow]

Zelgius is fine but I'm more of a fan of the Black Knight in PoR.

I mean, he killed Greil who was already established to be powerful enough to beat Petrine without breaking a sweat. And when Ike struggles to land a blow against him, he easily dodges and subdues him.

He showed that he was going to stop from nothing to get what he wants. If he wasn't stopped there in the forest, he would not only kill Mist as he threatened but everyone. Because nobody would be able to stand a chance against this guy. But Greil could do nothing but futility try to struggle to get back to his feet and Ike's swordplay was completely useless. It truly established him as an absolute unstoppable force that could wipe out the entire crew if he would put his mind on it.

This is important. I mean, look at Aversa. She shows up early in the game, showing off her massive stats... but nothing in the game implies she is powerful. So it feels like she only has these high stats because she is an endgame boss. You are afraid of the numbers, not the character. But when the Black Knight enters the battlefield, his stats are as high as they are because he really is just that strong. In his case, the numbers are only confirming what you already thought.

And man, does he know how to enter the battlefield. In chapter 11, just knowing that the guy was on the same map as my guys freaked me the hell out. And then he just popped out of that building... and then slowly walked towards Ike, his battle theme kicked in...

Black Knight: We meet again, son of Greil.
Ike: …
Black Knight: Why do you challenge me? You are not worthy of being my foe. Flee while you are able.
Ike: You… You! Die! Die now! Aaaaaaaarrrr!
Black Knight: …Fool.

...and then he killed him.

Ike: Gwa, aah… …I…I was not… strong…enough…
Black Knight: Did you truly think to challenge me with this pathetic band? It appears you never learned to exercise discretion… No matter…you would not have survived regardless.

Seriously, there was even a unique death quote for this encounter. It really rubbed my loss into my face and drove the fear of his appearance and theme into my bones.

And then he shows up again in chapter 24. The battle is going fine and then this guy with his ridiculous power shows up. His motives are unclear but he could completely turn the tables in this battle. And he... stands were he is. He just stands there. He just stands there between the trees and stares like he is the freaking Slenderman. The last time he stared like that, Greil died shortly after. Adrenalin is high but all I can do is to work on my mission and pray that he stays were he is until the end.

Edited September 26, 2014 by BrightBow

[Etria]

Hmmm, maybe it's just been too long that I played FE9, but some of the things you said, Bright Bow, do ring true to me (at least regarding Ch.24. In Ch. 11 I was just annoyed because I had to watch out for the guy I sent around the top, lol). I played it when it came out and that feels like ages ago. And doesn't he eventually start to move during Ch. 24 and threatens Geoffrey and the NPCs? That got me nervous.

[BrightBow]

Hmmm, maybe it's just been too long that I played FE9, but some of the things you said, Bright Bow, do ring true to me (at least regarding Ch.24. In Ch. 11 I was just annoyed because I had to watch out for the guy I sent around the top, lol). I played it when it came out and that feels like ages ago. And doesn't he eventually start to move during Ch. 24 and threatens Geoffrey and the NPCs? That got me nervous.

I'm pretty sure he never, ever moves. Even if someone goes in movement range. But of course one wouldn't know that when playing the chapter for the first time. And that uncertainty is all that is needed in order to make his appearance effective. After all, he did move in his previous appearance. Possibly with fatal results.

Ike dying to the Black Knight in chapter 11 was of course totally unfair but I think the experience affected the rest of the campaign in a way that made it worth it overall.

Edited September 26, 2014 by BrightBow

[Dragoncat]

Yeah I agree that Zelgius was less of a villain. And Valter...wow. If he were irl, he'd be a serial killer/psychopath with a life sentence. Maybe even the death penalty. Cause I can totally see him doing things to deserve it.

[FrostyFireMage]

Zelgius is a Gary Stu. I find Jarod a far better villain.

[Dragoncat]

Zelgius is a Gary Stu. I find Jarod a far better villain.

Jarod is a dick. I agree with that part...

[Maxkibram]

Zelgius is a Gary Stu. I find Jarod a far better villain.

Jarod is 100% dick, who is unreasonably evil for no reason. He's one of those villains that would castrate one of henchmen for disobeying orders then wonder why they turn around and backstab him. Radiant Dawn (and its infamous terribad writing) tried to humanize him right before part 1 ended, but that fell right on its face.

Really? You've slaughtered hundreds of people and sent tons of men to their deaths and NOW you feel bad about one of them? Yeah right. Besides a Gary Stu Villain is better than a Gary Stu or Mary Sue protagonist.

[Etria]

Besides a Gary Stu Villain is better than a Gary Stu or Mary Sue protagonist.

Nah, they're both insufferable. Better there'd be no Sues at all (wishful thinking, I know).

[LeaderR Elliot]

And man, does he know how to enter the battlefield. In chapter 11, just knowing that the guy was on the same map as my guys freaked me the hell out. And then he just popped out of that building... and then slowly walked towards Ike, his battle theme kicked in...

Black Knight: We meet again, son of Greil.

Ike: …

Black Knight: Why do you challenge me? You are not worthy of being my foe. Flee while you are able.

Ike: You… You! Die! Die now! Aaaaaaaarrrr!

Black Knight: …Fool.

...and then he killed him.

Ike: Gwa, aah… …I…I was not… strong…enough…

Black Knight: Did you truly think to challenge me with this pathetic band? It appears you never learned to exercise discretion… No matter…you would not have survived regardless.

Seriously, there was even a unique death quote for this encounter. It really rubbed my loss into my face and drove the fear of his appearance and theme into my bones.

There is also a quote if Ike surivives the encounter, the Black knight:

Ike survived an encounter with the Black Knight

Black Knight

...Oh? You avoided my blow. Will you be so lucky next time?

Taken from the site script

[shadowofchaos]

You can see all that here.

And Ray didn't use any codes like I would have to HD Dolphin.

[Magical Glace]

Did the GBA games have villains like that though? I mean Nergal was a shallow "the world will burn, who needs a good reason" as far as I know...I might be wrong since I never had my own copy of Blazing Sword. Valter...he was slimey, but I think he lacked his own motive.

I can see how you would see Zelgius and think there would be more like him in the future and be disappointed though.

GBA had some of the series best villains.

Why Awakening didn't try to live up to that is my question.

[IceBrand]

GBA had some of the series best villains.Why Awakening didn't try to live up to that is my question.

Wasn't Awakening rushed or something?

[Maxkibram]

Wasn't Awakening rushed or something?

Considering the sheer amount of content that was in the game (plus the fact that Nintendo told Intelligence Systems that if Awakening didn't sell well the franchise would be discontinued,) I doubt that.

[Magical Glace]

Wasn't Awakening rushed or something?

Not rushed.

They actually put a lot of effort into putting everything they wanted to see in a FE into FE13.

I'm just wondering why none of that effort went into the villains.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Wasn't Awakening rushed or something?

If it was, they'd have cut stuff like the Spotpass Paralogues and various random extras before cutting part of the main game.