Blaze The Great Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I voted yes but the more I think about it no. As long as you give us Battle Save like RD or a couple map saves like SD I will be fine without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gradivus. Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) you're free to disagree, but inability to understand clearly-expressed posts doesn't hold much weight due to it being based on personal comprehension and occasional bias (like, for intentional / pretentious misunderstandings). I can't be bothered to explain it yet again though. It's hard to impossible to convince other-sided players anyway, so I'm probably better off spending my time to proceed my FE12 Classic mode LTC run instead of posting non-sequitors in a discussion about what could/should be included. Edited February 15, 2015 by Gradivus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrySun Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 you're free to disagree, but inability to understand clearly-expressed posts doesn't hold much weight due to it being based on personal comprehension and occasional bias (like, for intentional / pretentious misunderstandings). I can't be bothered to explain it yet again though. It's hard to impossible to convince other-sided players anyway, so I'm probably better off spending my time to proceed my FE12 Classic mode LTC run instead of posting non-sequitors in a discussion about what could/should be included. LTCs, huh. Its getting clear to me now. In a way, all the discussion in any forum is useless. IS won't read through this and make the game according to our wishes. Its mostly a hobby, to have some fun talking about possibilities and preferances, not so much forcing your opinion as it won't do anything even if u force one person to change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topazd Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Well, the topic (originally) was about whether or not Casual should be included in FE14. If you cannot handle the opinions of the side hoping to see Casual mode removed, you are free to disagree, but do leave your unnecessary provocations somewhere else. If your inability to comprehend the points of the disagreeing side is all you have to offer against them, that doesn't invalidate them in any manner. Edited February 15, 2015 by Topazd255 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gradivus. Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I've no clue how the fact that I'm doing an LTC run is relevant to the meaning of my post. though I did decide not to spend my effort in explaining stuff here, so it doesn't matter. Edited February 15, 2015 by Gradivus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarfishh Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 As someone who started this series as a 6/7 year old, yes. As a kid, I'd always use prepromotes and ignore some of the best units in the game, because they weren't as strong at the start. I didn't fully understand a lot of the mechanics, especially the supports, and missed on recruiting some great characters because I couldn't work out how, or didn't know I could. While I don't use casual mode, and have no interest in doing so, I think it's great to not only get new people into the series, but allow them to experiment and learn without losing out. If you're on this forum, chances are that you're not the target group of casual mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto9000 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes, casual mode should return in the next Fire Emblem game. It's a big reason why I enjoy FE13. I don't have to restart every time one of my units die because of a bad move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) As someone who started this series as a 6/7 year old, yes. As a kid, I'd always use prepromotes and ignore some of the best units in the game, because they weren't as strong at the start. I didn't fully understand a lot of the mechanics, especially the supports, and missed on recruiting some great characters because I couldn't work out how, or didn't know I could. Ignoring that prepromotes are the best units, literally none of those problems are solved with Casual Mode. Edited February 15, 2015 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarfishh Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Ignoring that prepromotes are the best units, literally none of those problems are solved with Casual Mode. It means that you can still play without that understanding without being punished later down the line. It lowers the entry barrier so people can learn, as opposed to 'Hey, you forgot hammers beat armour, say goodbye to your general'. I agree that it's not 'the true experience', but it means you can work things out as you go at your own pace, instead of having to work something out to progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) ...So here's the question for everyone... What if they're not interested in learning and just want to play for the story? What if that alone gives them the experience they want for their money? What if they don't care that their prepromote carries them? There are motivations for getting through a game and I can see WHY people think the way they do with removing casual mode... However, what I keep seeing is that people aren't expressing their feelings for keeping the series the way FE is supposed to be understanding of people who don't want said experience. Why are people fine with people giving up on the game when they aren't good enough? I know you all just want the casuals to appreciate the depth of FE... but is removing Casual really the answer to that? Especially since all the reputation you get for REMOVING a mechanic (simply just from the justification that isn't really super agreed upon in the comunity) because you're REMOVING it. Edited February 15, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 ...So here's the question for everyone... What if they're not interested in learning and just want to play for the story? What if that alone gives them the experience they want for their money? What if they don't care that their prepromote carries them? OMG THEY'RE RUINING FE!!!!!!111 Seriously, that's fine, unless they decide that those who like playing for strategy are ruining everything and that they have no right to call themselves FE players (sound familiar?). Stuff like Awakening's Chapter 16 is decidedly less bastard if Olivia is murdered by some flying POS that spawned from the side. Currently being carried by Frederick, zero fucks given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Why are people fine with people giving up on the game when they aren't good enough? Has anyone said this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Seriously, Extra Credits hits the nail home, like eclipse previously linked. Educating about permadeath. Honestly, the only reason I lashed out is particularly the "joke modes" presented here. Removing Casual isn't going to help if you don't provide an actual alternative designed not only to "educate" those players about permadeath, but also to replace the fun factor. There are times when you just want to play auto-pilot on Awakening. Classic Mode is definitely not auto-pilot. "Anyone out there on the hardcore fringe furiously posting about how real gamers are willing to work for their fun... cut it out, you're not helping. You're not helping people to discover an aspect of gaming they might really enjoy." Has anyone said this? If that's the case, what would happen with those people if Casual weren't in the game at all? I imagine they'd struggle to adapt, tell less friends, and many would quit. I suspect casual probably influenced a good number of people, even if not so many as you think, but switching off of easy mode is simply much harder than picking up normal mode without the expectation that the game would be easy. Edited February 15, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Those posts don't strike me as being "fine" with losing new players. I think a large majority of anti-Casual people would be content with the inclusion of easier difficulty modes that do not cut a core mechanic. EDIT: I also have to question the relevance of your EC video. Both sides want accessible depth. Edited February 15, 2015 by feplus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) ...So here's the question for everyone...What if they're not interested in learning and just want to play for the story?What if that alone gives them the experience they want for their money?There are motivations for getting through a game and I can see WHY people think the way they do with removing casual mode...However, what I keep seeing is that people aren't expressing their feelings for keeping the series the way FE is supposed to be understanding of people who don't want said experience.Why are people fine with people giving up on the game when they aren't good enough? If they literally wanted to play only for the story, then a Story Only mode would be a much better concession then forcing them to play through gameplay that they don't care for...Unfortunately these people are not catered too. OK, I'm kind of curious as to where you think the line should be drawn in terms of accessibility. What if I hate limited item uses? It stresses me out when items break and I prefer strategy RPGs where they're infinite. Should IS make a game mode where they're all removed to cater to me (after all, it's optional and doesn't affect other peoples' experiences)? It means that you can still play without that understanding without being punished later down the line. It lowers the entry barrier so people can learn, as opposed to 'Hey, you forgot hammers beat armour, say goodbye to your general'. I agree that it's not 'the true experience', but it means you can work things out as you go at your own pace, instead of having to work something out to progress. Your issues were that you overused prepromotes and ignored some of the best units, didn't fully understand the mechanics (especially the supports), and missed out on recruiting some of the characters. I'm not saying that Casual mode isn't more forgiving or it's not the true experience (at least for now hue hue), I'm saying none of the issues are actually solved by Casual mode. Edited February 15, 2015 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) that do not cut a core mechanic. The option to not have it when you don't want to is something that is fun for me personally. From the perspective of someone that enjoys the mode, do you see why removing a feature, an optional feature, can be met with hostility? It's removing another experience entirely. A part of the game. Edited February 15, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes, I can see why cutting Casual would upset some people. I can also see why Casual returning would upset some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I can also see why Casual returning would upset some people. Look, I can see the arguments why Casual encourages bad strategy, doesn't give the tension, etc... But I don't see at all why it returning is all that upsetting. FE12 came out with it. No one payed attention to it. No one cared that some people used it. FE13 came out with it. And then people cared. FE14 returning with it would be... upsetting? Removing Classic... now THAT would be upsetting. Edited February 15, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 We have sixteen pages of discussion exploring why Casual Mode's inclusion hurt the experience for some. I don't see the benefit of rehashing those arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) We have sixteen pages of discussion exploring why Casual Mode's inclusion hurt the experience for some. We have sixteen pages of discussion of it and worrying about hurting the experience of others. You guys are worrying about the experience of others. When you guys play Casual, "it didn't have the tension, etc." We even have people talking down on it without even being aware of the feature of battle saves. If it hurt your experience, switch back to classic? Its very existence does not hurt your own experience when you're playing a different game mode. Edited February 15, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gradivus. Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) battle saves can be more reasonably integrated in form of the DSFE-esque map saves (which has been done already too), so that argument is plain invalid. taking away the limitations of them would be integrable on NM, but that's still sort of over-abusable. map save points allow a decent amount of rigging per map, but limit it to make it not abusive. Edited February 15, 2015 by Gradivus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) battle saves can be more reasonably integrated in form of the DSFE-esque map saves (which has been done already too!), so that argument is plain invalid. I am for the integration of battle saves in any manner. What I am saying is talking down on something when you don't even try it? Seriously? The question is... why does it need to be removed? The benefits of adding something to a game is easy. Justifying removing it when a portion of the fanbase actually enjoys screwing around without a core mechanic requires a lot more. How does it hurt your experience? No seriously, you are playing on Classic. How does the no-permadeath feature affect you (just *YOU* playing the game at that moment)? Edited February 15, 2015 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarfishh Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) If they literally wanted to play only for the story, then a Story Only mode would be a much better concession then forcing them to play through gameplay that they don't care for...Unfortunately these people are not catered too. OK, I'm kind of curious as to where you think the line should be drawn in terms of accessibility. What if I hate limited item uses? It stresses me out when items break and I prefer strategy RPGs where they're infinite. Should IS make a game mode where they're all removed to cater to me (after all, it's optional and doesn't affect other peoples' experiences)? Your issues were that you overused prepromotes and ignored some of the best units, didn't fully understand the mechanics (especially the supports), and missed out on recruiting some of the characters. I'm not saying that Casual mode isn't more forgiving or it's not the true experience (at least for now hue hue), I'm saying none of the issues are actually solved by Casual mode. It's not so much that it solves the problems as tolerates them. Personally I think playing casual on the lowest difficulty should add extra helpful tips and whatnot to the UI, to somewhat solve the problem. It's a step towards the solution, more than the whole solution. Edited February 15, 2015 by Dwarven Darkness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Fair enough. I don't know about Casual mode, but Normal mode does that already to some extent. I think including some kind of Fortune Teller on Normal Mode to help with difficult character recruitments or reinforcements would be another good step to alleviating potential frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 but limit it to make it not abusive. What if the player chooses to abuse it like how they abuse optional DLC? How does this affect your own experience? We have sixteen pages of discussion exploring why Casual Mode's inclusion hurt the experience for some. No seriously, you are playing on Classic. How does the no-permadeath feature affect you (just *YOU* playing the game at that moment)? Arena abuse in the GBA FE was looked down upon. How does it affect your experience if they did? If they posted on a forum about it and how their unit is good? You can tear them apart then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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